Prior Stuff.
More Prior Stuff.
Prior Stuff.
Yea, you’re probably right on the ranger burning thing. Incendiary powder IS very strong and allows engis to apply other condis at the same time which is far more powerful than just applying only burning.
What I meant was that throw torch and flame trap are both very strong and much easier to use than blowtorch is which is our only access to burning outside of incendiary powder.
But as far as cookie cutter builds being imba, I wouldn’t quite say so. The logic in that is flawed. A GS axe/shield warrior is cookie cutter, but it isn’t imbalanced by any measure.
True. I guess what I really meant was more along the lines of “if there is a trait in a particular slot that is getting more use across builds than other traits of that tier.” That doesn’t necessarily apply to Incendiary Powder, but it does apply to many of the lackluster grandmaster Traits in the game. Which, I believe, extends to the degree where we see builds like HGH emerge and considered so powerful, because there just really aren’t better options.
I definitely agree blowtorch should be better though. If Incendiary Power was ever to be looked at as needing an effectiveness reduction, I would be on the side of increasing the effectiveness of blowtorch first.
Throw torch and flame trap are definitely easy to use. To that degree I would argue that damage in the game (in general) should scale with how difficult the skills and rotations are to use. Unfortunately everything seems to trend towards becoming more faceroll and spam to win (in a general sense as well) to see success, in order to please “casual” or “new” players.
Sorry that I’m trying not to comment so much on the Ranger. I just main the class more so than my other classes, and I would prefer not to bring my bias into an otherwise very good discussion. Again, in a general sense, I believe that everybody thinks the class they play needs work, and to a degree, everybody is correct in that sense.
I said it previously in this thread, but I’ll say it again for the sake of reiteration; we should not be so quick to call for a nerf before all of our current options are even close to resembling a competitive state. I’m not saying builds aren’t clearly powerful. But if some of our trait and utility and even weapon skills options were changed/buffed to hard counter some of the currently powerful mechanics in the game, then who’s to say that builds people are trying to call OP now wouldn’t be balanced at that point?
It would just be much better balance wise if everything was brought up to par before things were considered for a nerf. It would help to show which builds are truly too strong, and even possibly provide a good data read on which mechanic of them makes them so strong. This thread in its entirety is already a good indicator that peoples bias or opinion on something outweighs truth factors, so that even if their opinion is correct in that something is OP, their reasoning is inaccurate, and if the devs are truly listening, it could give them false data reads and changes could be made that are either inconsequential or detrimental, which are things that the community just doesn’t need any more of.
Sorry for rambling lol.
Bringing up to par and bringing down to par are the same thing per say.
Anet has known about bunker guardians for 8 months nothing has changed.
They’ve known about bunker ele’s for 6 months no changes.
Mesmer’s are a must in every team comp since release and received a bugged changed that gave them the ability to 1 shot ppl and that took months to fix.
Where would you get the idea that debating or what this really is whining on the forums would make anything change about the engi?
If you are talking about shattered strength where we got 3 stacks of might instead of 1 stack per illusion shattered that was fixed in 2 weeks.
I think hes referring to the multi shatter where you could with the help of a macro (or so it is said) increase the damage greatly on the total shatter.
That’s also been addressed. We have a global cooldown on pur shatters to keep two shatter effects from triggering on the same illusion
I know, and that was what he said, just that it took its good time to band-aid.
I think the only reason they bandaged it when they did was it being the same time as the shattered strength bug. Before that shattered strength didn’t work at all… So having different shatters proc on the same illusions wasn’t even noticed really.
Bringing up to par and bringing down to par are the same thing per say.
Depends where the “par” is set I guess lol. If new mechanics are introduced (the whole boon punishment idea/discussion/eventual implementation) then it could be a level that doesn’t even exist or hasn’t been thought of yet.
Just a thought, let’s speculate and say every class now has a weapon or utility skill that can rip boons, that doesn’t require a specific build to make use of other than sacrificing that weapon/utility slot. Isn’t that essentially an HGH nerf in a way?
All I meant was that, if a build is to be nerfed, why does it have to be made less effective? If everything else is made more effective at making something less effective, that’s essentially a nerf as well. And it would help to keep the number of viable builds per class we have from getting reduced.
How the heck does that guy not know about the widespread Mesmer abuse that was going on for so long after saying he plays a mesmer? Don’t know about the general game history new player or something?
How the heck does that guy not know about the widespread Mesmer abuse that was going on for so long after saying he plays a mesmer? Don’t know about the general game history new player or something?
Because that “abuse” was unnoticed by the devs when shattered strength wasn’t working properly. This means that getting two shatter effects on the same illusion wasn’t that big of a deal and the damage added was insignificant… Once shattered strength started adding several more stacks of might they took higher notice of both bugs… Hence they were both quickly addressed… Started playing in October and Mesmer in November.
So I’m curious. This HGH-condi build has only been popular for a month or so and only after a number of Engi buids were annihilated by the Kit Refinement over-nerf (and make no mistake it was an over-nerf), even though the build option has been available for months. Obviously, the last patch took a lot of builds off the table (something that stands as ‘at odds’ with previous ANet statements of wanting to create more build variety) across a handful of classes.
Something that hasn’t changed though is the prevalence of Bunker Guards, D/D Ele’s, Shatter Mesmers, as well as the return of one-shot Thieves (granted they don’t really have a choice if they want to bring anything tangible to a group). These builds have been around and at the forefront of the meta for months(!!!) now. Yet, anytime we have one build that comes along and gives them a run for their money, making them actually think about what they’re doing rather than just letting muscle memory carry them from target to target, match to match, and the first thought from the community is…. ‘nerf it’?
So what I’m curious about is this: Are we so complacent and settled on dealing with what we largely consider to be the staples of PvP viability (i.e. the aforementioned builds/classes) that whenever something infringes or impinges on their viability or success rate we have to call for it to be nerfed?
And if it is nerfed after only a single month of being popular from players griping on the forums without understanding it, and while also in the grip of a sizable meta shift, isn’t that a very distinct statement from ANet as to what classes/builds they would prefer everyone play competitively? – edit: and to take it one step further, wouldn’t that also be entirely at odds with their statements towards build variety and viability?
(edited by hackks.3687)
So I’m curious. This HGH-condi build has only been popular for a month or so and only after a number of Engi buids were annihilated by the Kit Refinement over-nerf (and make no mistake it was an over-nerf), even though the build option has been available for months. Obviously, the last patch took a lot of builds off the table (something that stands as ‘at odds’ with previous ANet statements of wanting to create more build variety) across a handful of classes.
Something that hasn’t changed though is the prevalence of Bunker Guards, D/D Ele’s, Shatter Mesmers, as well as the return of one-shot Thieves (granted they don’t really have a choice if they want to bring anything tangible to a group). These builds have been around and at the forefront of the meta for months(!!!) now. Yet, anytime we have one build that comes along and gives them a run for their money, making them actually think about what they’re doing rather than just letting muscle memory carry them from target to target, match to match, and the first thought from the community is…. ‘nerf it’?
So what I’m curious about is this: Are we so complacent and settled on dealing with what we largely consider to be the staples of PvP viability (i.e. the aforementioned builds/classes) that whenever something infringes or impinges on their viability or success rate we have to call for it to be nerfed?
And if it is nerfed after only a single month of being popular from players griping on the forums without understanding it, and while also in the grip of a sizable meta shift, isn’t that a very distinct statement from ANet as to what classes/builds they would prefer everyone play competitively? – edit: and to take it one step further, wouldn’t that also be entirely at odds with their statements towards build variety and viability?
Stop it. Logic is not welcome here.
gamebreaking bug wasn’t a big deal quite the reasoning you got there.
gamebreaking bug wasn’t a big deal quite the reasoning you got there.
It wasn’t game breaking before the shattered strength bug because there was absolutely no might stacks with it…. So a mindwrack+COF would become just more confusion with no extra damage and confusion sucks in sPvP.
I believe you completely double shatter totally sucked I mean no one abused it for 2 months. I hope you don’t know the meaning of sarcasm either.
I believe you completely double shatter totally sucked I mean no one abused it for 2 months. I hope you don’t know the meaning of sarcasm either.
Not denying that it was a bug but it was not as game breaking as you think especially considering that our biggest damage dealer is Diversion+mindwrack became more damaging AFTER the shattered strength bug because of just how much more damage that combo did thanks to ANets amazing coding the new shattered strength trait was a 3might:1illusion ratio… Which meant that it would be 9stacks before the mindwrack. This was game breaking and launched it right to the top of the list. And then it was bandaged and they still haven’t figured out a permanent fix for it although the GCD doesn’t bug mesmers mostly.
Maybe you just have a different understanding of game breaking?
Do you know the definition of cheating?
“It’s time to nerf Engineers.”
Joke?!
The most nerfed class of the game and u say HGH is OP? You know how much p/p in engi was already nerfed? 100nades down..
I’m really in bad mood with the last updates, if they nerf it i’ll prob change game.
So I’m curious. This HGH-condi build has only been popular for a month or so and only after a number of Engi buids were annihilated by the Kit Refinement over-nerf (and make no mistake it was an over-nerf), even though the build option has been available for months. Obviously, the last patch took a lot of builds off the table (something that stands as ‘at odds’ with previous ANet statements of wanting to create more build variety) across a handful of classes.
Something that hasn’t changed though is the prevalence of Bunker Guards, D/D Ele’s, Shatter Mesmers, as well as the return of one-shot Thieves (granted they don’t really have a choice if they want to bring anything tangible to a group). These builds have been around and at the forefront of the meta for months(!!!) now. Yet, anytime we have one build that comes along and gives them a run for their money, making them actually think about what they’re doing rather than just letting muscle memory carry them from target to target, match to match, and the first thought from the community is…. ‘nerf it’?
So what I’m curious about is this: Are we so complacent and settled on dealing with what we largely consider to be the staples of PvP viability (i.e. the aforementioned builds/classes) that whenever something infringes or impinges on their viability or success rate we have to call for it to be nerfed?
And if it is nerfed after only a single month of being popular from players griping on the forums without understanding it, and while also in the grip of a sizable meta shift, isn’t that a very distinct statement from ANet as to what classes/builds they would prefer everyone play competitively? – edit: and to take it one step further, wouldn’t that also be entirely at odds with their statements towards build variety and viability?
Well put. HGH is a very strong build, but it’s changing the meta in exactly the way the community has been demanding for the last six months. Only apparently, at some point in those six months, we got a little too comfortable with the meta.
So I’m curious. This HGH-condi build has only been popular for a month or so and only after a number of Engi buids were annihilated by the Kit Refinement over-nerf (and make no mistake it was an over-nerf), even though the build option has been available for months. Obviously, the last patch took a lot of builds off the table (something that stands as ‘at odds’ with previous ANet statements of wanting to create more build variety) across a handful of classes.
Something that hasn’t changed though is the prevalence of Bunker Guards, D/D Ele’s, Shatter Mesmers, as well as the return of one-shot Thieves (granted they don’t really have a choice if they want to bring anything tangible to a group). These builds have been around and at the forefront of the meta for months(!!!) now. Yet, anytime we have one build that comes along and gives them a run for their money, making them actually think about what they’re doing rather than just letting muscle memory carry them from target to target, match to match, and the first thought from the community is…. ‘nerf it’?
So what I’m curious about is this: Are we so complacent and settled on dealing with what we largely consider to be the staples of PvP viability (i.e. the aforementioned builds/classes) that whenever something infringes or impinges on their viability or success rate we have to call for it to be nerfed?
And if it is nerfed after only a single month of being popular from players griping on the forums without understanding it, and while also in the grip of a sizable meta shift, isn’t that a very distinct statement from ANet as to what classes/builds they would prefer everyone play competitively? – edit: and to take it one step further, wouldn’t that also be entirely at odds with their statements towards build variety and viability?
awesome post.
The lack of build diversity of many classes and complete uselessness of some classes cough warrior cough seems to be a bigger problem – HGH is just mixing up the meta by countering bunkers and making things shift and be more interesting. Somebody smarter than me will come up with the next fotm soooner or later
So I’m curious. This HGH-condi build has only been popular for a month or so and only after a number of Engi buids were annihilated by the Kit Refinement over-nerf (and make no mistake it was an over-nerf), even though the build option has been available for months. Obviously, the last patch took a lot of builds off the table (something that stands as ‘at odds’ with previous ANet statements of wanting to create more build variety) across a handful of classes.
Something that hasn’t changed though is the prevalence of Bunker Guards, D/D Ele’s, Shatter Mesmers, as well as the return of one-shot Thieves (granted they don’t really have a choice if they want to bring anything tangible to a group). These builds have been around and at the forefront of the meta for months(!!!) now. Yet, anytime we have one build that comes along and gives them a run for their money, making them actually think about what they’re doing rather than just letting muscle memory carry them from target to target, match to match, and the first thought from the community is…. ‘nerf it’?
So what I’m curious about is this: Are we so complacent and settled on dealing with what we largely consider to be the staples of PvP viability (i.e. the aforementioned builds/classes) that whenever something infringes or impinges on their viability or success rate we have to call for it to be nerfed?
And if it is nerfed after only a single month of being popular from players griping on the forums without understanding it, and while also in the grip of a sizable meta shift, isn’t that a very distinct statement from ANet as to what classes/builds they would prefer everyone play competitively? – edit: and to take it one step further, wouldn’t that also be entirely at odds with their statements towards build variety and viability?
Preach brother hackks. I think Anet wants Engi’s to be good at point defense, but I think Hgh in a way still fits in that.
Yes! Nerf Engineers please! After you nerfed the elementalists, the rangers, the guardians, the mesmers and the thieves!
It’s not the classes that need to be buffed or nerfed, it’s certain builds.
They have nerfed thiefs, mesmers and rangers.
They have nerfed eles (though not sufficiently)
And yes everyone just refers to nerf engies as nerf hgh. People do understand that turret engies aren’t the OPness.
Honestly, I think Eles and Engis need to be minorly tweaked but not nerfed. Example: Only have 1 might duration rune instead of 3. The reason that hgh is so strong. Anet has said they want to make a variety of viable builds, but as of lately, they have been destroying multiple builds (100 blades, 100 nades). Nerfing the stronger classes is not the way to go, but instead give every other class bump ups so that they can compete.
Anet has known about bunker guardians for 8 months nothing has changed.
They’ve known about bunker ele’s for 6 months no changes.
Mesmer’s are a must in every team comp since release and received a bugged changed that gave them the ability to 1 shot ppl and that took months to fix.
Where would you get the idea that debating or what this really is whining on the forums would make anything change about the engi?
If you are talking about shattered strength where we got 3 stacks of might instead of 1 stack per illusion shattered that was fixed in 2 weeks.
I think hes referring to the multi shatter where you could with the help of a macro (or so it is said) increase the damage greatly on the total shatter.
That’s also been addressed. We have a global cooldown on pur shatters to keep two shatter effects from triggering on the same illusion
I know, and that was what he said, just that it took its good time to band-aid.
I think the only reason they bandaged it when they did was it being the same time as the shattered strength bug. Before that shattered strength didn’t work at all… So having different shatters proc on the same illusions wasn’t even noticed really.
Well, it felt kinda silly when it happened every now and again. :P
Pretty sure that’s not the normal shatter. But tell me if i am wrong.
Myself i only noticed some way off damage for shatters every now and again, like twice or thrice the damage?
(edited by miriforst.1290)
Love Teldo’s response at the end lol
Anet has known about bunker guardians for 8 months nothing has changed.
They’ve known about bunker ele’s for 6 months no changes.
Mesmer’s are a must in every team comp since release and received a bugged changed that gave them the ability to 1 shot ppl and that took months to fix.
Where would you get the idea that debating or what this really is whining on the forums would make anything change about the engi?
If you are talking about shattered strength where we got 3 stacks of might instead of 1 stack per illusion shattered that was fixed in 2 weeks.
I think hes referring to the multi shatter where you could with the help of a macro (or so it is said) increase the damage greatly on the total shatter.
That’s also been addressed. We have a global cooldown on pur shatters to keep two shatter effects from triggering on the same illusion
I know, and that was what he said, just that it took its good time to band-aid.
I think the only reason they bandaged it when they did was it being the same time as the shattered strength bug. Before that shattered strength didn’t work at all… So having different shatters proc on the same illusions wasn’t even noticed really.
Well, it felt kinda silly when it happened every now and again. :P
Pretty sure that’s not the normal shatter. But tell me if i am wrong.
Myself i only noticed some way off damage for shatters every now and again, like twice or thrice the damage?
Did you see how many might stacks the Mesmer had… Also notice how it was just one shatter…. that looks to be about 2.5 k damage for each clone and I can reach that now with might stack runes sigils of battle and our current shattered strength… also it was only 7k total not quite your entire health…. So you were saying> And also this was during the shattered strength bug… where we got more stacks per illusion than currently… This video is invalid because it is only one shatter
(edited by jportell.2197)
Yeah sure, nerf HGH and bury the whole class alive, you should just say it if you don’t think an Engi is fit for competitive PvP.
Anet has known about bunker guardians for 8 months nothing has changed.
They’ve known about bunker ele’s for 6 months no changes.
Mesmer’s are a must in every team comp since release and received a bugged changed that gave them the ability to 1 shot ppl and that took months to fix.
Where would you get the idea that debating or what this really is whining on the forums would make anything change about the engi?
If you are talking about shattered strength where we got 3 stacks of might instead of 1 stack per illusion shattered that was fixed in 2 weeks.
I think hes referring to the multi shatter where you could with the help of a macro (or so it is said) increase the damage greatly on the total shatter.
That’s also been addressed. We have a global cooldown on pur shatters to keep two shatter effects from triggering on the same illusion
I know, and that was what he said, just that it took its good time to band-aid.
I think the only reason they bandaged it when they did was it being the same time as the shattered strength bug. Before that shattered strength didn’t work at all… So having different shatters proc on the same illusions wasn’t even noticed really.
Well, it felt kinda silly when it happened every now and again. :P
Pretty sure that’s not the normal shatter. But tell me if i am wrong.
Myself i only noticed some way off damage for shatters every now and again, like twice or thrice the damage?
Did you see how many might stacks the Mesmer had… Also notice how it was just one shatter…. that looks to be about 2.5 k damage for each clone and I can reach that now with might stack runes sigils of battle and our current shattered strength… also it was only 7k total not quite your entire health…. So you were saying> And also this was during the shattered strength bug… where we got more stacks per illusion than currently… This video is invalid because it is only one shatter
Yes thanks, i was asking, because i do not record much myself and i remembered seeing this video, but i was unsure and needed input from someone who is more at home with this build. And 5 might is not that much for any build deciding to roll it (and this being prepatch the might only lasted 5 sec). Wasn’t the multishatter about hitting more for each shatter by fooling the engine? Or is my memory failing me again. No seriously i don’t trust my own memory. :P
And when calculating the maximum damage you can do now with longer duration might stacking and sigil on a critt, remember that thats 7k damage from 3 clones without fury, making 3 crits entirely possible but not guaranteed. It’s hard to say, also teldo is not really built glassy, so its not like hitting a gc thief or so.
But ill take your word for it from a shatter mesmer.
P.S. Whats up with all the dots in every post?(…)
Anet has known about bunker guardians for 8 months nothing has changed.
They’ve known about bunker ele’s for 6 months no changes.
Mesmer’s are a must in every team comp since release and received a bugged changed that gave them the ability to 1 shot ppl and that took months to fix.
Where would you get the idea that debating or what this really is whining on the forums would make anything change about the engi?
If you are talking about shattered strength where we got 3 stacks of might instead of 1 stack per illusion shattered that was fixed in 2 weeks.
I think hes referring to the multi shatter where you could with the help of a macro (or so it is said) increase the damage greatly on the total shatter.
That’s also been addressed. We have a global cooldown on pur shatters to keep two shatter effects from triggering on the same illusion
I know, and that was what he said, just that it took its good time to band-aid.
I think the only reason they bandaged it when they did was it being the same time as the shattered strength bug. Before that shattered strength didn’t work at all… So having different shatters proc on the same illusions wasn’t even noticed really.
Well, it felt kinda silly when it happened every now and again. :P
Pretty sure that’s not the normal shatter. But tell me if i am wrong.
Myself i only noticed some way off damage for shatters every now and again, like twice or thrice the damage?
Did you see how many might stacks the Mesmer had… Also notice how it was just one shatter…. that looks to be about 2.5 k damage for each clone and I can reach that now with might stack runes sigils of battle and our current shattered strength… also it was only 7k total not quite your entire health…. So you were saying> And also this was during the shattered strength bug… where we got more stacks per illusion than currently… This video is invalid because it is only one shatter
Yes thanks, i was asking, because i do not record much myself and i remembered seeing this video, but i was unsure and needed input from someone who is more at home with this build. And 5 might is not that much for any build deciding to roll it (and this being prepatch the might only lasted 5 sec). Wasn’t the multishatter about hitting more for each shatter by fooling the engine? Or is my memory failing me again. No seriously i don’t trust my own memory. :P
And when calculating the maximum damage you can do now with longer duration might stacking and sigil on a critt, remember that thats 7k damage from 3 clones without fury, making 3 crits entirely possible but not guaranteed. It’s hard to say, also teldo is not really built glassy, so its not like hitting a gc thief or so.
But ill take your word for it from a shatter mesmer.
P.S. Whats up with all the dots in every post?(…)
It wasn’t hitting more for each shatter. It was getting multiple shatter effects on the same illusion. So basically if they macrod (cheater) or just had really quick hands they could do a diversion+mindwrack combo and both effects would proc on the same illusion. You couldn’t hit mindwrack twice and get double effects. That Mesmer was also a full GC and unless I see teldo’s build I won’t be able to see how tanky he is. And also note how many conditions he had when he went down… I’d honestly just say it was an out playing really.
Anet has known about bunker guardians for 8 months nothing has changed.
They’ve known about bunker ele’s for 6 months no changes.
Mesmer’s are a must in every team comp since release and received a bugged changed that gave them the ability to 1 shot ppl and that took months to fix.
Where would you get the idea that debating or what this really is whining on the forums would make anything change about the engi?
If you are talking about shattered strength where we got 3 stacks of might instead of 1 stack per illusion shattered that was fixed in 2 weeks.
I think hes referring to the multi shatter where you could with the help of a macro (or so it is said) increase the damage greatly on the total shatter.
That’s also been addressed. We have a global cooldown on pur shatters to keep two shatter effects from triggering on the same illusion
I know, and that was what he said, just that it took its good time to band-aid.
I think the only reason they bandaged it when they did was it being the same time as the shattered strength bug. Before that shattered strength didn’t work at all… So having different shatters proc on the same illusions wasn’t even noticed really.
Well, it felt kinda silly when it happened every now and again. :P
Pretty sure that’s not the normal shatter. But tell me if i am wrong.
Myself i only noticed some way off damage for shatters every now and again, like twice or thrice the damage?
Did you see how many might stacks the Mesmer had… Also notice how it was just one shatter…. that looks to be about 2.5 k damage for each clone and I can reach that now with might stack runes sigils of battle and our current shattered strength… also it was only 7k total not quite your entire health…. So you were saying> And also this was during the shattered strength bug… where we got more stacks per illusion than currently… This video is invalid because it is only one shatter
Yes thanks, i was asking, because i do not record much myself and i remembered seeing this video, but i was unsure and needed input from someone who is more at home with this build. And 5 might is not that much for any build deciding to roll it (and this being prepatch the might only lasted 5 sec). Wasn’t the multishatter about hitting more for each shatter by fooling the engine? Or is my memory failing me again. No seriously i don’t trust my own memory. :P
And when calculating the maximum damage you can do now with longer duration might stacking and sigil on a critt, remember that thats 7k damage from 3 clones without fury, making 3 crits entirely possible but not guaranteed. It’s hard to say, also teldo is not really built glassy, so its not like hitting a gc thief or so.
But ill take your word for it from a shatter mesmer.
P.S. Whats up with all the dots in every post?(…)
It wasn’t hitting more for each shatter. It was getting multiple shatter effects on the same illusion. So basically if they macrod (cheater) or just had really quick hands they could do a diversion+mindwrack combo and both effects would proc on the same illusion. You couldn’t hit mindwrack twice and get double effects. That Mesmer was also a full GC and unless I see teldo’s build I won’t be able to see how tanky he is. And also note how many conditions he had when he went down… I’d honestly just say it was an out playing really.
There was until recently a similar problem with flamethrower skill 2 that caused it to be able to dish out its damage twice if you quickly detonated it within a certain window. It allowed GC’s to hit for 10k+ if they where lucky, i wonder if there could have been any similarities technically.
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