Guild Wars 2

So, I knew this leaderboard would be that bad the moment it got anounced, but I gave it a fair chance and didn´t judge early.

The current leaderboard is a farmboard and does not represent actual skill. Best prove is that the results from go4cup and leaderboard ranking distinguish by an insane amount.

The reward system is still non exsistant and the matchmaking is just super bad. Before the patch we knew we would face 55hp monks, asdf or any other top team after 8-10 minutes in the evening so we could actual practise, nowadays it´s only pug groups and solo qers.

So there is no point for joining as a team, since there is no challenge. On the other hand my solo q experience is super bad aswell, since I get matched against the same premade multiple times in a row, being farmed 500 -50 because my team consists of bad players who die to chiaftain/svanir.

I cannot imagine how to kitten up harder and I don´t believe promoting pug q´s are the way to go.

Thanks ESL for keeping competitive pvp alive for the moment.

Ways to improve the leaderboard and matchmaking are actuall rewards, give it some meaning, like qualifying for an important tournament to attract teams and get competition going, legendaries, etc. Remove the point system, it is not hard to maintain a positive winratio with premade vs randoms and just farm the crap out of it. Wins vs low mmr players shouldnt reward you with rating, the only way you will see a leaderboard sorted by player skill was the way it was before, where you had to defend your rank vs other top teams because it wasn´t possible to gain a decent amount of rating vs lower mmr palyers. Then you need to implement seasons so people actually have to play and can´t sit on their rank forever.
To adress people with low amount of games on high rating you have to force a minium amount of games. A good example is the WoW ladder, where you can farm games until 1500 rating points, then you will have an accurate mmr and get truely punished for losses beyond that rating.

“The current leaderboard is a farmboard and does not represent actual skill.”

Mostly, I disagree. There are people who tend to make their team lose. They play a lot but get few ladder points.

For each person on the ladderboard now, see if their points are greater than their number of wins.

Those people are skilled at team playing. They tend to get bigger-than-expected win scores, and bigger-than-expected scores even when they lose the match.

The people who pay a lot and tend to help their team win also tend to have higher ladder points.

Exactly, thank you for telling your experiences.

Just came from a solo vs premade (premade of top 100 or 200 players on old LB) in ranked. My group of solos lost 500-33. One member on the team said “sorry first time in PvP”, and it was obvious (they even thought we won at the end). And another member was “just trying to do their daily”. Almost every time I solo, I find I’m constantly fighting the top 1 or 2 premade groups queuing at the time.

Occasionally I get a good match, but so many of the games are awful. The solo vs solo games are usually decent, but the premade vs solo are almost always terrible…that applies whether you are the one soloing or the premade (unless you get a lucky pick of top solo players).

For those wondering, I’ve done about 75 games each in unranked and ranked since the update- about 150 total (entering as a variety of premades, duos, premades, etc). Queued at all different times of day except very early morning in NA. My ‘rank’ now is 399, and my queue times go from instant to 15 minutes.

In the old leaderboard (North America), I was:
Team Arena: 1305-550 (70.35% win)
Solo Arena: 1649-908 (64.49% win)

The thing is, with the introduction of the profession rating, basically all our old MMR got reset.

Therefore before the patch hits, you were on the top, and therefore you could count on also playing against teams on the top.

With the new profession mmr, the system thinks wrongly your team is only mediocre, and therefore you are playing against mediocre players and well, you are rightfully farming them.

I am hoping the matchmaking will get better, once the individuals are again ranked where they belong. → Are there currently more Teams out there with >50 matches played, and still facing pugs?

The new point system should be a combination of matches played and MMR; We all know the problems from the old leaderboard, which was practically a pure MMR ladder. With a lucky win strike in your first few games, you could position yourself on the top.

Still, the current ladder is a problem, and it definitely needs some big improvements.

Teutos.8620:

The thing is, with the introduction of the profession rating, basically all our old MMR got reset.

Therefore before the patch hits, you were on the top, and therefore you could count on also playing against teams on the top.

With the new profession mmr, the system thinks wrongly your team is only mediocre, and therefore you are playing against mediocre players and well, you are rightfully farming them.

I am hoping the matchmaking will get better, once the individuals are again ranked where they belong. -> Are there currently more Teams out there with >50 matches played, and still facing pugs?

The new point system should be a combination of matches played and MMR; We all know the problems from the old leaderboard, which was practically a pure MMR ladder. With a lucky win strike in your first few games, you could position yourself on the top.

Still, the current ladder is a problem, and it definitely needs some big improvements.

I don’t think it’s working that way.

Since the very first matches i’ve played on teef ( 2-3 games prolly to reduce deviance) i already went against super pugs with people from all old top 100 leaderboard.

I was fairly high in old LB ( top 100-150 in both tho decay so screwing current MMR even more) and now i just can’t get rid of premades when i go solo.

And since they’re 500-50 me 95% of times, i even lose points.

Asked justin, he said my MMR is just too high and can’t do kitten about it ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/How-much-rating-should-i-lose/first#post4636048

U can scroll down and see pictures and my amazing paint skillz).

For me it’s basically go full team or don’t play.

I’m literally forced to use TS since if i get a decent team with decent players we just go straight into esl players super pugs.

It’s not like i don’t think we can beat them ( in fact we can) point is if u can’t chill out and always need to go e-seriouz, things become boring pretty quickly.

I just want old solo q back.

This leaderboard is pointless, WHY CAN’T WE HAVE A TEAM LEADERBOARD LIKE 2006 WORLD OF WARCRAFT is beyond me.

Silentshoes.1805:

“The current leaderboard is a farmboard and does not represent actual skill.”

Mostly, I disagree. There are people who tend to make their team lose. They play a lot but get few ladder points.

For each person on the ladderboard now, see if their points are greater than their number of wins.

Those people are skilled at team playing. They tend to get bigger-than-expected win scores, and bigger-than-expected scores even when they lose the match.

The people who pay a lot and tend to help their team win also tend to have higher ladder points.

You’re totally wrong.

Those people are decent randoms playing in a 5 men team with TS farming good players duo-trio queuing and paired with 2-3 uber scrubs.

MMR evens things out so if 2 amazing players are matched against a mediocre team, MMR will give them 3 bot players getting killed 3vs1 by Svanir.

This is 100% accurate.

I would like to add that having unranked/ranked queues just undermines the system. The population is split up and any improvements in matchmaking are diminished as the pools of available players in each is less (as both modes have the same reward as well)

To salvage this patch, I’d suggest removing unranked queue and allowing entry from outside of HotM. Or keep unranked, but give it less reward than ranked (much less). And remove hotjoin but keep custom arena.

MMR wasn’t reset with the patch, it was mixed with solo and team queue, for premaders their MMR took a big dive, because everyone’s MMR was more closely together in solo queue… Profession MMRs were set to your patch MMR. The leaderboard is grindy in a way yes, but it’s not like it’s giving out free points and never taking em back. It does punish peeps if they don’t do well (although it may be a tad harsher, a -1 where all the 0 are now, and for 0-20% a 0 where the 1 is now – same for 2 to 1 would make the LB less grindy). I’ve seen lousy players with quite a few wins and still less than a 3rd of their wins in points.

As to facing pugs, it’s not a leaderboard issue, it’s the fact that the MMR logarythm has been changed to a way that premades wait so long that the variance is raised high enough, you get pitched against pugs, since everyone’s rating is more evened out now. Give it time and you might get the premades only again because MMR will be seperating itself again slowly. Or anet should just lenghten your queues again and make it so the 50-100 top MMRs currently in pvp (fighting & queue) are treated a little seperately so they get pooled against eachother more.

PS: removing unranked isn’t a good option imo. A lot of players (myself incl) like to use unranked to try out classes they’re not comfortable with yet. And refuse to play hotjoin because it doesn’t equal real queue pvp enough to assume you’re actually starting to understand said class.

Grump.7069:

MMR wasn’t reset with the patch, it was mixed with solo and team queue, for premaders their MMR took a big dive, because everyone’s MMR was more closely together in solo queue… Profession MMRs were set to your patch MMR.

Edit:
TeamQ and SoloQ rating did not combine, SoloQ rating got deleted, and TeamQ transferred to the new core rating.

No. They are tracked separately. We track one core rating per rating type, and one profession rating per rating type, for a total of 18 ratings. Right now profession rating is being ignored, but the intent is to start combining it with the core rating at some point.

Is this still the case? Is the profession rating still deactivated?

Dude these kids farming might beat ostrich to champion brawler

Blackjack.5621:

Then you need to implement seasons so people actually have to play and can´t sit on their rank forever.

heh.

Silentshoes.1805:

“The current leaderboard is a farmboard and does not represent actual skill.”

Mostly, I disagree. There are people who tend to make their team lose. They play a lot but get few ladder points.

For each person on the ladderboard now, see if their points are greater than their number of wins.

Those people are skilled at team playing. They tend to get bigger-than-expected win scores, and bigger-than-expected scores even when they lose the match.

The people who pay a lot and tend to help their team win also tend to have higher ladder points.

This does not make a good ranking system simply because it does not show the BEST players, which is what a leaderboard is supposed to do.

On a srs note: I agree. Going ranked with 5 people on TS and with a halfway srs comp just seems like an overkill, I don’t really see any motivation in playing as a team in this system since you rarely ever get actual matches and even if you do, you don’t really gain anything from it.

The old leaderbord was a lot better and that’s saying something. In the old system all the top teams were in the top 50 (exept 55hp since they duoq’d in teamq a lot) so it seems a lot more accurate than what we have now. I regognize like 3 names at best on the frontpage.

I don’t even care about the LBs anymore. I just want to be up against other decent players again…

Damsel Delilah.9084:

This does not make a good ranking system simply because it does not show the BEST players, which is what a leaderboard is supposed to do.

Best at what, Delilah? Helping a team? Or 1v1ing in a deathmatch style?

The old leaderboards were crap too, though.

My suggestions:

- Give more weight to ladder position.
- Max 1 point or even max 0 points on a loss. This will make winning a bit more rewarding relative to those who lose. I think it’s still worth it to do your best if you know you could lose no points or gain 1 point. I don’t know how many times it happens that players get +2 when they lose, might be interesting data for Justin.
- Activate dishonor and implement grace period. This will make the LB’s a bit fairer too for everyone.
- Implement a character change grace period. Allows people to change comps, avoid class stacking, etc. Lots of people still change, so I assume they get -3 every time.
- More data for us (directly from Anet or through API). Class leaderboards, kills, deaths, downs, match stats, etc.
- Ingame leaderboards? Ingame notificiation of the odds of winning? Ingame notification of LB points reward? etc.
- Seasons/leagues, however these would work with the current iteration of the LB (teamq/soloq together in one league? Hope not)
- Daily, weekly, monthly automated tournaments to get more teams formed, more competition, etc. Teamq wins reward you with ‘currency’ which is needed to register for those automated tournaments. This way you get more teams all around + competition. ESL is not a valid replacement for this.

Blackjack.5621:

being farmed 500 -50 because my team consists of bad players who die to chiaftain/svanir.

lol I’ve seen svanir 1v2 ‘ing people in unranked Q’s.

Man its so bad

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/Leo7086

top 200 with 36% winrate XD

did 51 games today… won 29%….(15wins) gained 15 points… GG this system

for more bad leaderboard examples check bottom of these 2 pages:
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=na
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=eu

even prince vingador is top 10 in eu :P

Seiishizo.7162:

Man its so bad

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/Leo7086

top 200 with 36% winrate XD

did 51 games today… won 29%….(15wins) gained 15 points… GG this system

for more bad leaderboard examples check bottom of these 2 pages:
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=na
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=eu

even prince vingador is top 10 in eu :P

This is just the first step for our overlord to rule us all

Obsidia.5127:

I don’t even care about the LBs anymore. I just want to be up against other decent players again…

+10,00000000,00000,00000000,000000

Like there is no matchmaking. The whole of pvp got ruined.

Obsidia.5127:

I don’t even care about the LBs anymore. I just want to be up against other decent players again…

^^this… i feel like whenever you get higher mmr you are just facing bots fighting bots~

maybe anet should just split them and make 2 leaderboards:
- old one
- farming one for pve bots

Seiishizo.7162:

Man its so bad

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/Leo7086

top 200 with 36% winrate XD

did 51 games today… won 29%….(15wins) gained 15 points… GG this system

for more bad leaderboard examples check bottom of these 2 pages:
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=na
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=eu

even prince vingador is top 10 in eu :P

I think I’ll use this quote wherever the leaderboard topic comes up, great example of how the ladder is broken.

Dustin.2793:

Dude these kids farming might beat ostrich to champion brawler

They’re gonna catch up to both of us!

Mrbig.8019:

Seiishizo.7162:

Man its so bad

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/Leo7086

top 200 with 36% winrate XD

did 51 games today… won 29%….(15wins) gained 15 points… GG this system

for more bad leaderboard examples check bottom of these 2 pages:
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=na
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=eu

even prince vingador is top 10 in eu :P

This is just the first step for our overlord to rule us all

Like i said first days…when you see prince vingador in top 10 you already know something is NOT working…at all, let alone the #1 guy playing hambow and popping all stances at once as soon as someone gets too close (Just an example…and there are many others..)

Sure the leaderboard isn’t a reflection of best players, just most active. However I think in terms of encouraging activity there is a lot of value in it and it’s definitely for me as a pretty casual player improved the game a lot.

The matchmaking could certainly use fixing, particularly for the top level, so good teams play each other and not pugs. Can’t argue with that and hope it’s a priority. Perhaps also a second leaderboard for MMR but with no rewards, so people can see where they roughly stack up in terms of competitiveness without having to go esports.

Yea I completely stopped paying ranked after the first 3 days. I have no respect for the new leaderboard system with the uneven match ups. I find myself playing 80% less pvp since the update. I understand why they are making all these updates: to gain a bigger pvp base of players but are doing just the opposite by running away many loyal players and trading them for players who will play pvp maybe a week or 2 (no matter how many rewards you give you will not change someone’s mind on what they like).

Since I pretty much only played SoloQ in the past I have a little more biased view, but the fact that TeamQ and SoloQ got merged is pretty bad. Pugs will almost certainly win.

Archaon.9524:

Mrbig.8019:

Seiishizo.7162:

Man its so bad

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/Leo7086

top 200 with 36% winrate XD

did 51 games today… won 29%….(15wins) gained 15 points… GG this system

for more bad leaderboard examples check bottom of these 2 pages:
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=na
http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/extra?region=eu

even prince vingador is top 10 in eu :P

This is just the first step for our overlord to rule us all

Like i said first days…when you see prince vingador in top 10 you already know something is NOT working…at all, let alone the #1 guy playing hambow and popping all stances at once as soon as someone gets too close (Just an example…and there are many others..)

Seriously, do we have to call out individual people? It seems like a bad thing to do to me. :/ I am sure some people at the top would admit they aren’t the best players but I don’t think it is for those of us on the forums to single them out for ridicule. It seems….wrong.

I actually like this leaderboard, because its a long term leaderboard, and when seasons come if they use the same leaderboard it would be good.

Eventually the top players will get up there, because they just keep getting +1 +1, no -1 -2.

Also, it rewards those that play, even if you farm and you suck, you wont be in the top. But if you farm and your good, for example Thee Faux. Than you will be at the top.

I like this a lot better than 10 wins 0 losses sit my kitten on leaderboard and get rewarded for it.

You should be required to put effort to being on the top of the leaderboard it shouldn’t just be 10 wins 0 losses no more games for a month, and now I’m top 25. This actually rewards people who put effort into it and are good at the same time, and those are the kind of people that should be rewarded.

This new leaderboard decreases leaderboard manipulation and is more accurate than the old leaderboard.
As in those preppy popular kids and there 2+ accounts cant just win 10 games and lose 0 and have 2 accounts on the leaderboard. This leaderboard is more focused towards playing 1 account, thus more accurate due to people playing 15 games and getting lucky wont appear on top 100 or people who play 2 accounts or more will have a lot more harder time getting in the top 100.

This leaderboard is a good indication of actual players playing PvP and those that are good at it too as in being in the top 25.

This leaderboard actually means more than the old leaderboard because you cant cheat it, no luck involved, nothing but skill.

No more playing at odd hours and cheating the leaderboard by getting easy wins. You want your +2 or +3, you gotta face equal skill teams. To all those high and mighty chest pounding players, there’s people out there just as good as you, so don’t think its impossible for you to get a +2 or +3 either.

One last thing, this leaderboard discourages dc’s and it is easily noticed on the leaderboard. If you have a lot of wins but your points isn’t where it should be… Than that means you dc a lot, and yes I count swapping toons in middle of game dc’ing because those people kitten up rotations and I’ve been having a lot of games with kittened up rotations, not due to dc but due to idiots going far thinking they win, but we lose mid and the people at mid go far and stomp you too. If you cant win far in 30 seconds, don’t go far.

^ It’s a good concept but it needs fine tuning. It needs to reward wins a little bit more.
A good start might be testing max 1 or even 0 point gains for losses when you beat the odds of winning. Anyway they should have enough data to tweak the system.