Guild Wars 2

Sword on Mesmer is bad? Pretty much like saying Axe is bad on Warrior. Which it isn’t.

@Sensotix
I enjoyed reading your post and I think you are spot on with many of the things you mentioned.

Maybe one of the problems with warriors is that they were not viable for a very long time.

A-net as a result kept buffing the warrior in various minor ways, each made the warrior stronger, but still not quite on par with the other professions.

When the warrior finally did become viable, it was with great strengths in both control, survival and damage.

I think the challenge, is finding a way to make the warrior strong in areas that are more specialized but more vulnerable in others, without removing its viability.

Aza.2105:

Hey Sensotix,

I think your initial post is great and I can agree with most of it.

I feel that what has happened with the warrior class over the year is that Anet simply started to apply guardian strengths to the warrior class. Looking back at last years description of each class it stated specifically that warrior wasn’t very good at condition removal and needed other classes to do this for them.

That their high hp pool was due to the fact that they were missing things like a powerful condition removal and the ability to sustain through long durations. Similar to how necros have high hp pools because they are expected to mitigate through death shroud and the fact that they have poor mobility.

Even on wiki it states guardian has low hp compared to warrior because they have better passive health regeneration. But this isn’t close to being true now. Anet has essentially nullified warriors class weakness but did not bother to offset their strengths to accomodate these changes.

If warrior had low tier hp or even mid tier. I don’t feel we’d have so many complaints about them as we do now.

This pretty much…. (kitten you healing signet! )

this thread is now about the 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer build

For many months warrior was out of the meta, now warrior is in meta (or better, warriors ARE the meta) because they have amazing sustain and can do very good pressure with damage/CC/conditions (depends on builds)

But common element for every war builds is always healing signet, i think anet needs to rework healing signet, balancing better passive and active status.

I think with a better balance for healing signet warrior wouldn’t be the beast that is now.

State of the game pvp balance:
Warrior→Necromancer→Engineer→Ranger→Mesmer→Guardian→Theif→Elementalist

Roll warrior if you want to win.

Amir.1570:

Sword on Mesmer is bad? Pretty much like saying Axe is bad on Warrior. Which it isn’t.

Uninstall. Thanks.

The problem is the Healing Signet. It’s too strong. It needs counterplay.
400hp/s is fine if you are actively working to keeping that 400hp/s rolling. However, just getting it passively, regardless of what you are doing (i.e. disengage == 1200hp, skullcracker = 800hp), makes it overpowered.

Healing Signet should be reworked to provide 400hp/s healing, normalized, for hitting opponents with adrenaline-gaining attacks. Increase the active heal and the cooldown, and you’d balance warriors.

Why half of posts are talking about mesmer ? isnt the OP talking about warrioirs issues ?

Most of reasonable ppl here are aware that the main issue with warrioir is the op healing signet=>Passive effect + high healing value.

just compare ElE to anything else if you want to open your eyes @ bad game state balance

Thedenofsin.7340:

The problem is the Healing Signet. It’s too strong. It needs counterplay.
400hp/s is fine if you are actively working to keeping that 400hp/s rolling. However, just getting it passively, regardless of what you are doing (i.e. disengage == 1200hp, skullcracker = 800hp), makes it overpowered.

Healing Signet should be reworked to provide 400hp/s healing, normalized, for hitting opponents with adrenaline-gaining attacks. Increase the active heal and the cooldown, and you’d balance warriors.

healing signet is bugged at the moment.

when i disengage and attempt to flee the passive healing disappears and never comes back.

try it and you will understand.

healing signet was 200 health per second, no one was complaining.
now its 400 health per second. everyone wants to give a kitten.
what the kitten is this kitten?

they talk bout mesmer cause op plays mesmer and the warrior comunity dont have any arguments so all go like “mimimimi but your class is op too mimimimi”

and i said it in a post before – when warrior rly need this sustain and all the crap they have than it need to have negative effects on use paired with the strong effects to bring risk in their gameplay

warrior gameplay need something like this:
stance 1 gives +50% armor but get +25% more damage from conditions for 10 sec
stance 2 gives -50% condition damage but – 25% armor for 10 sec

cant use both at same time

there are already “negative” effects.

endure pain, berserker stance have very long recharge time.

healing signet is an essential healing skill that keeps warriors alive.
otherwise they drop like paper dolls.

people who complain about warriors being god mode probably not doing enough damage.

well frenzy is like that.
+50% speed
+25% damage received

a bunker warrior is basically unkillable 1 v 1. in solo q’s that means not only is it tough to kill, but it takes more than one person focusing it to take it down. Even if there’s enough focus to take him down, that leaves players on the other side 25 seconds or so of free casting while a team tries to take down a bunker warrior.

healing signet becomes absurd when it heals through 100% of auto attacks.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

there are already “negative” effects.

healing signet is an essential healing skill that keeps warriors alive.
otherwise they drop like paper dolls.

Paper dolls? you clearly don’t play any other classes.

twity.4732:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

there are already “negative” effects.

healing signet is an essential healing skill that keeps warriors alive.
otherwise they drop like paper dolls.

Paper dolls? you clearly don’t play any other classes.

i played elementalist once.
died within seconds.

i played warrior during beta weekends, and after launch.
died pretty fast even though i spec defensively.

cos when everyone sees a warrior, they go “oh free kill” and focuses the warrior down.

now, people still focus down on warrior because they see warrior as a real threat.
then the softies on my team will have a chance to do their things while they try to put me down.

teamwork!

EverythingEnds.4261:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Still Mesmers arent the weakest class for sure..
They are pretty strong, there were other things that kept em out of teams..

You think that a Mesmer is squishy, have low cond removal and unforgiving?

Try out a Power Ranger and you will see what a truly unforgiving build is like..

The time you touch the zerker amulet with an Ranger you get instant 5000 dmg in every pvp match you joining

I dont think, finding 1 build which is weaker than a whole profession, makes this a valid argument.

My point is that Mesmers can pick Zerker amulet and have more sustain and damage than a Ranger with Zerker Amulet..
Every meta build Rangers had so far was with defensive cond based amulets and with the Empathetic Bond as a must..30 points investement in a defensive traitline..
Thieves-Warriors-Mesmers-Ele can pick Zerker Amulets and jump in teamfights, you have no idea what a priviledge this is..

Dardamaniac.1295:

Thieves-Warriors-Mesmers-Ele can pick Zerker Amulets and jump in teamfights, you have no idea what a priviledge this is..

You’re kidding, right?

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

you cant compare mesmer to warrior..please read the op post again
mesmer lacks sustain, mobility, condition removal etc etc so you cant compare mesmer to warrior

I read the op and strongly disagree with mesmer lacking sustain, mobility or condition removal.

Anyway, I am not going to make you admit you’re wrong in any case, but I will put up the same list for the mesmer, as you did for the warrior and see if we can fit it all in one build:

Mesmer:
Condition immunity on one click – check – In fact, the mesmer has a number of options with shorter duration and shorter cool down

Damage immunity on one click – check – Multiple options yet again, this time the mesmer has more access with a way higher uptime on power damage immunity than even a warrior with defy pain on top of endure pain

Nice amount of hp – check – Meaningless point. Higher base HP comes as a trade off. Mesmers have medium amount of HP

Sustain in a teamfight – check – Another strange point. What does that even mean. Either way, mesmer has one of the best heals in the game, range option, defensive tools on their weapons and utilities to get them out of a bad situation be it through stealth or teleports

Possibility to CC enemies – check – Very much check. In fact the mesmer has a possibility to not only CC the enemies but kill them by interrupting them with their CC and at the same time remove boons like stability that actually prevent CCs in the first place

Mobility (25% movement speed increase) – check (might not be the best but still) – Yeah, definitely not the best. I don’t see mesmers running traveler runes either. Mesmer’s roaming around the map is among the best with all the blinks and the stealth and definitely superior to a meta hambow build of the warrior

Condition cleanse – check – Hell yeah. The amount of condi cleanse a mesmer can have currently is unrivaled. Understandably some of it is overkill, but a single 10 point investment over the meta build and the use of a utility will give the mesmer a potential 6 condition cleanses every 23ish seconds, with up to 12 condi cleanses back to back with an interval of ~3 seconds

Stability – check – check, but not really needed. Even when the mesmer is required to stomp, he has the tools to stomp every single class. No other class can stomp all classes on their first try.

Good in duels – check – check, beats the warrior and is way superior in taking out bunkers than the warrior due to boon removal and a lot of passive damage sources that can be avoided way less frequently than simple sets of attacks

Good in teamfights – check – check, not only does the mesmer offer damage, AoE and single and also control, it also offers team support with condi cleansing, stomp denial through stealth and stomp securing through boon removal + control

Condition pressure – check (Longbow burning, bleeding) – not so much in terms of damage. Mesmers in the current build or variations of it tend to deal limited amount of condi damage, but they do add a huge number of random passive conditions that are annoying. Ranging from blinds to immobilizes, confusion, cripple and what not

Looks quite good to me.

what did I just read there?
are we talking about warriors or mesmers on this forum? sure you read everything i said?

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

If people read all the posts they will notice that it was the OP who wanted to know why i said that in what comes in risk vs reward, mesmers are in need of more balance than warriors. thats when people started talking about mesmers.

This is a topic about warriors. But what you will say about warriors aside of Healing Signet being to strong at the moment?

Op already said that it was not the damage that made warriors the ultimate war machine. So its the stances? Dont think so because only when Healing Signet was buffed people started to fear warriors. So i dont agree when he says things like:

“Bersercer’s Stance – immunity to conditions for quite a long time (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving 100% reward)” – With this one you can still take damage. you have to use endure pain at the same time to get some sort of invul, but you will get CC so you need to user all defensive stances you have to be safe for 4-5 seconds only (because EP dont last 8-10 seconds).

This is one statement that made me think about the risk in other classes and mesmer (one more time) has advantage against warrior in that department. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Cleansing ire (cleansing with a chance of 100% on longbow, not even having to hit the condi cleanse 0% risk – 100% reward)” – There are other classes that dont need to hit to get rid of conditions too. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Lets take a burst setup – you spike the warriors from stealth
Warrior: if he reacts fast enough he can basically survive with around 60% health using Endure pain (making it possible for him to disengage) (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving – 100% reward)” – That is how all the get of jail free cards works on every profession, you should know that better than anyone because you play the classes you said you play, by the way (i know this post is about warriors only, but just let me say this one) how the blurred frenzy is worst than this skill?

And then after OP said this:
“so you basically take a lot of damage from retal when using blurred frenzy and then you take even more damage while being very squishy? i see your point but i think we would have to modify that for each class”

So in this case Blurred frenzy its OK? Because i only have immunity as warrior if i use all my stances and i have a 60 sec CD for have the same effect after. You can do this every 10-12 seconds without using a single utility slot (but this is about warriors i know.)

So if ANet nerfed the wrong things about warrior, lets start a discussion here about warriors:

Question: Should ANet reverse the nerfs they made and nerf the real problem (Healing Signet)?
If so, what are your sugestions to do that?

Sensotix.4106:

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

In which universe are your responses objective, my friend?

You pretty much call posts like “I agree with the op just ’cause I can” some “nice feedback” and ignore anything else and actually try to belittle it with condescending remarks.

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

In which universe are your responses objective, my friend?

You pretty much call posts like “I agree with the op just ’cause I can” some “nice feedback” and ignore anything else and actually try to belittle it with condescending remarks.

he is the op kitten

silentnight warrior.2714:

If people read all the posts they will notice that it was the OP who wanted to know why i said that in what comes in risk vs reward, mesmers are in need of more balance than warriors. thats when people started talking about mesmers.

This is a topic about warriors. But what you will say about warriors aside of Healing Signet being to strong at the moment?

Op already said that it was not the damage that made warriors the ultimate war machine. So its the stances? Dont think so because only when Healing Signet was buffed people started to fear warriors. So i dont agree when he says things like:

“Bersercer’s Stance – immunity to conditions for quite a long time (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving 100% reward)” – With this one you can still take damage. you have to use endure pain at the same time to get some sort of invul, but you will get CC so you need to user all defensive stances you have to be safe for 4-5 seconds only (because EP dont last 8-10 seconds).

This is one statement that made me think about the risk in other classes and mesmer (one more time) has advantage against warrior in that department. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Cleansing ire (cleansing with a chance of 100% on longbow, not even having to hit the condi cleanse 0% risk – 100% reward)” – There are other classes that dont need to hit to get rid of conditions too. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Lets take a burst setup – you spike the warriors from stealth
Warrior: if he reacts fast enough he can basically survive with around 60% health using Endure pain (making it possible for him to disengage) (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving – 100% reward)” – That is how all the get of jail free cards works on every profession, you should know that better than anyone because you play the classes you said you play, by the way (i know this post is about warriors only, but just let me say this one) how the blurred frenzy is worst than this skill?

And then after OP said this:
“so you basically take a lot of damage from retal when using blurred frenzy and then you take even more damage while being very squishy? i see your point but i think we would have to modify that for each class”

So in this case Blurred frenzy its OK? Because i only have immunity as warrior if i use all my stances and i have a 60 sec CD for have the same effect after. You can do this every 10-12 seconds without using a single utility slot (but this is about warriors i know.)

So if ANet nerfed the wrong things about warrior, lets start a discussion here about warriors:

Question: Should ANet reverse the nerfs they made and nerf the real problem (Healing Signet)?
If so, what are your sugestions to do that?

change the game to where it was 9 months ago nerf mesmer and ele and everybody is happy

ahuba.6430:

Slim.3024:

Sensotix.4106:

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

In which universe are your responses objective, my friend?

You pretty much call posts like “I agree with the op just ’cause I can” some “nice feedback” and ignore anything else and actually try to belittle it with condescending remarks.

he is the op kitten

I am aware of that, though I have difficulty understanding what you are trying to convey. I assume you agree with him, which makes your post nice feedback again, yet you don’t even comprehend quotation marks and what they are used for.

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

If people read all the posts they will notice that it was the OP who wanted to know why i said that in what comes in risk vs reward, mesmers are in need of more balance than warriors. thats when people started talking about mesmers.

This is a topic about warriors. But what you will say about warriors aside of Healing Signet being to strong at the moment?

Op already said that it was not the damage that made warriors the ultimate war machine. So its the stances? Dont think so because only when Healing Signet was buffed people started to fear warriors. So i dont agree when he says things like:

“Bersercer’s Stance – immunity to conditions for quite a long time (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving 100% reward)” – With this one you can still take damage. you have to use endure pain at the same time to get some sort of invul, but you will get CC so you need to user all defensive stances you have to be safe for 4-5 seconds only (because EP dont last 8-10 seconds).

This is one statement that made me think about the risk in other classes and mesmer (one more time) has advantage against warrior in that department. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Cleansing ire (cleansing with a chance of 100% on longbow, not even having to hit the condi cleanse 0% risk – 100% reward)” – There are other classes that dont need to hit to get rid of conditions too. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Lets take a burst setup – you spike the warriors from stealth
Warrior: if he reacts fast enough he can basically survive with around 60% health using Endure pain (making it possible for him to disengage) (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving – 100% reward)” – That is how all the get of jail free cards works on every profession, you should know that better than anyone because you play the classes you said you play, by the way (i know this post is about warriors only, but just let me say this one) how the blurred frenzy is worst than this skill?

And then after OP said this:
“so you basically take a lot of damage from retal when using blurred frenzy and then you take even more damage while being very squishy? i see your point but i think we would have to modify that for each class”

So in this case Blurred frenzy its OK? Because i only have immunity as warrior if i use all my stances and i have a 60 sec CD for have the same effect after. You can do this every 10-12 seconds without using a single utility slot (but this is about warriors i know.)

So if ANet nerfed the wrong things about warrior, lets start a discussion here about warriors:

Question: Should ANet reverse the nerfs they made and nerf the real problem (Healing Signet)?
If so, what are your sugestions to do that?

change the game to where it was 9 months ago nerf mesmer and ele and everybody is happy

Maybe that is the best solution i ever heard in this forums.
Nice one

ahuba.6430:

this thread is now about the 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer build

Even a 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer build would never be as OP as any warrior build.

Serious.

That’s exactly what I was saying.

Warrior needed that sustain when necros got buffed. And with the presence of Sword Dagger thieves and BM ranger. There was some unbalanced stuff.

Remember what many people were saying? Warrior was the best designed class, other classes should have been brought down to it, not the opposite.

Before the buffs, warrior was a simple class, but that was actually an interesting disadvantage to work around.

Sensotix.4106:

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

Nature of the beast, I’m afraid.

I think most of your points are valid. However, I don’t think defensive mechanisms should be viewed as risk vs reward. They should be viewed as reward vs opportunity lost. If you activate a defensive skill, there should be an opportunity lost, but low risk. Shield blocks are a great example of this: you sacrifice damage output for self-preservation: the opportunity to do damage is lost.

Beserker Stance and Endure Pain are presumably balanced around the opportunity lost from slotting the utility. The long cooldown and loss of utility is the lost opportunity. You are stacking self-preservation utilities at the cost of group buffs (and other things). The problem, however, is this is not a balanced trade-off. Beserker Stance, in particular, with an 8 second duration, is extremely powerful.

Edit: and where’s that video of your new PvP build in action?? :-)

Thedenofsin.7340:

Sensotix.4106:

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

Nature of the beast, I’m afraid.

I think most of your points are valid. However, I don’t think defensive mechanisms should be viewed as risk vs reward. They should be viewed as reward vs opportunity lost. If you activate a defensive skill, there should be an opportunity lost, but low risk. Shield blocks are a great example of this: you sacrifice damage output for self-preservation: the opportunity to do damage is lost.

Beserker Stance and Endure Pain are presumably balanced around the opportunity lost from slotting the utility. The long cooldown and loss of utility is the lost opportunity. You are stacking self-preservation utilities at the cost of group buffs (and other things). The problem, however, is this is not a balanced trade-off. Beserker Stance, in particular, with an 8 second duration, is extremely powerful.

Edit: and where’s that video of your new PvP build in action?? :-)

This is true. The problem is to balance that stance you need to tone down conditions spam (There was a reason for ANet give 8 seconds to berserker stance, and that reason still prevails.)

Thedenofsin.7340:

Sensotix.4106:

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

Nature of the beast, I’m afraid.

I think most of your points are valid. However, I don’t think defensive mechanisms should be viewed as risk vs reward. They should be viewed as reward vs opportunity lost. If you activate a defensive skill, there should be an opportunity lost, but low risk. Shield blocks are a great example of this: you sacrifice damage output for self-preservation: the opportunity to do damage is lost.

Beserker Stance and Endure Pain are presumably balanced around the opportunity lost from slotting the utility. The long cooldown and loss of utility is the lost opportunity. You are stacking self-preservation utilities at the cost of group buffs (and other things). The problem, however, is this is not a balanced trade-off. Beserker Stance, in particular, with an 8 second duration, is extremely powerful.

Edit: and where’s that video of your new PvP build in action?? :-)

i am actually testing a different version think its even better

i’m wondering why there hasn’t been any dev response for months on healing sig.

i’m not that much into theory crafting and numbers and kitten, but i really struggle a lot by fighting against warriors and can’t remember when the last time was a warrior died in front of me.
they are outlasting most 2v1 with a big smile on their face and even when it comes to a 3v1 the warrior runs away with no problem.

i have no problem with losing fights, but to never have a chance against one class and to know that even before the fight starts feels very frustrating.

if even top tier warriors (or players in general) think that this is broke, why not carify the situation in case what you (devs) thought of?
just wondering if you are aware but still watching the numbers or… really dunno.

i thought it would just be really nice to get a dev statement on warriors heal sig.

btw: what’s up with the state of the game shows? not anymore?

Having an objective conversation about pvp is hard. But trying to have it about a class that also happens to be the most played class was impossible from the start.

The reason mesmers were brought up is because most of this topic was about risk vs reward. The op tried to make it seem like there was no risk vs reward for just warriors while the class he mains(Mesmer) has the exact same problem. So it’s funny that he would ask for a nerf to a class that has the exact same problems of the class he is playing.

The op reacts by calling anyone who doesn’t agree with him WvW and pve players.

The real problem is Healing Signet. It is 100% passive, so there is no counterplay to it. If the warrior stands there, he gets healed; if he hits you, he gets healed; if he runs away, he gets healed.

The Mesmer analog, Signet of the Ether, heals for less than Healing Signet and requires the Mesmer keep 3 illusions up. The Mesmer actually has to do something to get those heals, and that something can be impeded or stopped. That introduces counterplay. Counterplay is good.

josh.7390:

The hammers dmg never was a big problem. The combination that killed every1 was longbow 5 -> f1 -> 3. This combination eats about half of a mesmers live. + its all aoe (+ for mesmer espically your clones die in the burning from f1 even after the actual use)…

Yea, as a thief, I never really worried about the hammer too much since all its moves have a big wind up that’s easily evaded. However, I pretty much just move on to another node when the long bow comes out. The AoE pressure of that weapon is just ridiculous.

clint.5681:

The reason mesmers were brought up is because most of this topic was about risk vs reward. The op tried to make it seem like there was no risk vs reward for just warriors while the class he mains(Mesmer) has the exact same problem. So it’s funny that he would ask for a nerf to a class that has the exact same problems of the class he is playing.

The op reacts by calling anyone who doesn’t agree with him WvW and pve players.

i didnt make it seem like there was no risk and reward for mesmer
and it doesnt matter what class i play..i think the post was objective dont you think so?

Sensotix.4106:

clint.5681:

The reason mesmers were brought up is because most of this topic was about risk vs reward. The op tried to make it seem like there was no risk vs reward for just warriors while the class he mains(Mesmer) has the exact same problem. So it’s funny that he would ask for a nerf to a class that has the exact same problems of the class he is playing.

The op reacts by calling anyone who doesn’t agree with him WvW and pve players.

i didnt make it seem like there was no risk and reward for mesmer
and it doesnt matter what class i play..i think the post was objective dont you think so?

It’s hard to be objective concerning warriors because there is so much hate towards the class and people tend to have their own reasons for wanting them nerfed and not all of it has to do with balance. That said it seemed like you were exaggerating how good some of warriors skills is. Every stance has a long cd where you are open to kick the warriors kitten , especially if they use them all at once. It is extremely easy to burst a warrior down since healing sig doesn’t protect against burst. Only warriors that are hard to kill is bunker banner regen warriors.

Warrior is fine, it has good teamfight presence, ok damage and so-so mobilety.

Warriors are made for the ppl that can’t play other classes.
pvp balance team have had 7+ months to “balance”(i’m not saying nerf) the warriors and they haven’t done nothing about it.
The issue with warriors is ONLY healing signet and i’m talking as an elementalist/thief/mesmer/engi/guardian.
healing signet should scale with healing power and should be like the signet of restoration for the elementalist,when “you attack you gain hp”(risk vs reward),
and shouldn’t be" you don’t do a kittening nothing and you gain 400 hp gratis once per second"(no risk op reward).

clint.5681:

It’s hard to be objective concerning warriors because there is so much hate towards the class and people tend to have their own reasons for wanting them nerfed and not all of it has to do with balance. That said it seemed like you were exaggerating how good some of warriors skills is. Every stance has a long cd where you are open to kick the warriors kitten , especially if they use them all at once. It is extremely easy to burst a warrior down since healing sig doesn’t protect against burst. Only warriors that are hard to kill is bunker banner regen warriors.

Stance cooldowns for warriors are ok imo.Compare them with stabs/imune dmge cds from ele and you will see that they are not that high.

The biggest issue with warriors is the fact healing signet is countering most autoattacks.It makes them very tanky until they face another full dps class who will die in 2/3 hit if they get caught by the warri.
Then it is countering low/med condi dmge , and as soon you got too much of them they are many ways to remoove/ignore them => berserker stance/lyssa/F1 mostly.

You still can get bursted for sure , but as every class , you can see the burst coming and dodge it.Then considering you use vigor on stance usage , dodging should not be that a big deal and even if you dont , you can still dodge what you have to.Plus warrioirs have a nice hp pool and decent armor , 1 shotting them wont happen.
→ what is protecting you from a burst is your armor , your hp pool , dodges , imune , blocks.
Not having a big heal on demand is just not a matter , becuz most class have a long cooldown to perform a dangerous burst , that you will tank if you eat it , and doge/imune if u are any good.

Their gameplay is just too permissive imo

Insanity.5174:

Warriors are made for the ppl that can’t play other classes.

But do you think it has always been like this? I think not!

I started as an engi, then I felt like good engi builds were pretty limited (same concepts… kit swapping, condi pressure, a bit of SD, a bit of bunkering…). At around April I switched to warrior in pvp. Yeah, when it was still considered the joke of gw2 pvp.

Recently I tried Meditation Guardian, and I feel like I can play it decently.XD

(and can still play engi)

The problem is that warrior is the perfect victim of power creep.

They buffed necros, thus had to buff warriors to give them a chance to actually get NEAR one of them. That was a delicate matter, and the warrior ended up to swat necros like flies with hammer ad mace. (IMHO other weapons are fine against conditioners, at most Zerker Stance is an issue… what about putting Cleansing Ire in Tactics, so that it’s harder for hammerers to reach it?)

But even then, warriors fell too quickly: their burst was easily avoidable or on long cooldown, they had to invest too much for it (remember the old Bull’s Charge + Frenzy build? It used 2 utility slots just to land that burst, and that meant to play with barely any defensive mechanic at all).
The problem was their healing wasn’t that great, considering they had to build zerker and stay in the enemy face all the time.
I remember playing engi bomb bunker a long time ago. I laughed at all those warriors desperately trying to take me down, outplaying me many times and then going down by my bomb autotattack. They were the only class I could kill in a 1v1 with my builds. I could hold others, but couldn’t take them down… they just needed to step away from bombs.

So ok, they buff the only healing skill that nobody used: healing signet. It only offered healing, and not much of that. Completely useless. Ok, it was a boring skill, too, and probably ANet should have changed that completely before buffing it.

That’s how warriors became OP.

If they didn’t buff necros, and instead brought up all other classes to the levels of necros and warriors, things would have got a lot better.

Before that, in order to be beaten by a warrior you had to be severely outnumbered, outplayed, outbuilt (AKA: you are playing a build that has a specific purpose and sacrifices all its 1v1 potential) or you had to be really really rookie.XD

Warriors broken
Rangers broken
necros broken
engis broken
thief broken

GG

redslion.9675:

Insanity.5174:

Warriors are made for the ppl that can’t play other classes.

But do you think it has always been like this? I think not!

I started as an engi, then I felt like good engi builds were pretty limited (same concepts… kit swapping, condi pressure, a bit of SD, a bit of bunkering…). At around April I switched to warrior in pvp. Yeah, when it was still considered the joke of gw2 pvp.

Recently I tried Meditation Guardian, and I feel like I can play it decently.XD

(and can still play engi)

The problem is that warrior is the perfect victim of power creep.

They buffed necros, thus had to buff warriors to give them a chance to actually get NEAR one of them. That was a delicate matter, and the warrior ended up to swat necros like flies with hammer ad mace. (IMHO other weapons are fine against conditioners, at most Zerker Stance is an issue… what about putting Cleansing Ire in Tactics, so that it’s harder for hammerers to reach it?)

But even then, warriors fell too quickly: their burst was easily avoidable or on long cooldown, they had to invest too much for it (remember the old Bull’s Charge + Frenzy build? It used 2 utility slots just to land that burst, and that meant to play with barely any defensive mechanic at all).
The problem was their healing wasn’t that great, considering they had to build zerker and stay in the enemy face all the time.
I remember playing engi bomb bunker a long time ago. I laughed at all those warriors desperately trying to take me down, outplaying me many times and then going down by my bomb autotattack. They were the only class I could kill in a 1v1 with my builds. I could hold others, but couldn’t take them down… they just needed to step away from bombs.

So ok, they buff the only healing skill that nobody used: healing signet. It only offered healing, and not much of that. Completely useless. Ok, it was a boring skill, too, and probably ANet should have changed that completely before buffing it.

That’s how warriors became OP.

If they didn’t buff necros, and instead brought up all other classes to the levels of necros and warriors, things would have got a lot better.

Before that, in order to be beaten by a warrior you had to be severely outnumbered, outplayed, outbuilt (AKA: you are playing a build that has a specific purpose and sacrifices all its 1v1 potential) or you had to be really really rookie.XD

Except, warrior isn’t overpowered. That is simply YOUR opinion. Warriors have proved over and over that healing signer is fine, its just that all the nerd mongers cover their ears and keep screaming for nerds. They won’t be satisfied until warrior is a free kill. They have the same hate for thief, it will be back whenever warriors are rendered useless.

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

If people read all the posts they will notice that it was the OP who wanted to know why i said that in what comes in risk vs reward, mesmers are in need of more balance than warriors. thats when people started talking about mesmers.

This is a topic about warriors. But what you will say about warriors aside of Healing Signet being to strong at the moment?

Op already said that it was not the damage that made warriors the ultimate war machine. So its the stances? Dont think so because only when Healing Signet was buffed people started to fear warriors. So i dont agree when he says things like:

“Bersercer’s Stance – immunity to conditions for quite a long time (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving 100% reward)” – With this one you can still take damage. you have to use endure pain at the same time to get some sort of invul, but you will get CC so you need to user all defensive stances you have to be safe for 4-5 seconds only (because EP dont last 8-10 seconds).

This is one statement that made me think about the risk in other classes and mesmer (one more time) has advantage against warrior in that department. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Cleansing ire (cleansing with a chance of 100% on longbow, not even having to hit the condi cleanse 0% risk – 100% reward)” – There are other classes that dont need to hit to get rid of conditions too. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Lets take a burst setup – you spike the warriors from stealth
Warrior: if he reacts fast enough he can basically survive with around 60% health using Endure pain (making it possible for him to disengage) (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving – 100% reward)” – That is how all the get of jail free cards works on every profession, you should know that better than anyone because you play the classes you said you play, by the way (i know this post is about warriors only, but just let me say this one) how the blurred frenzy is worst than this skill?

And then after OP said this:
“so you basically take a lot of damage from retal when using blurred frenzy and then you take even more damage while being very squishy? i see your point but i think we would have to modify that for each class”

So in this case Blurred frenzy its OK? Because i only have immunity as warrior if i use all my stances and i have a 60 sec CD for have the same effect after. You can do this every 10-12 seconds without using a single utility slot (but this is about warriors i know.)

So if ANet nerfed the wrong things about warrior, lets start a discussion here about warriors:

Question: Should ANet reverse the nerfs they made and nerf the real problem (Healing Signet)?
If so, what are your sugestions to do that?

change the game to where it was 9 months ago nerf mesmer and ele and everybody is happy

nope…

change it into it was 6 month ago and nerf bm ranger and node engi, buffing nec A BIT and thats it

Warrior is a big joke.He can do everything expecially in WvWvW.This class doesnt need some skill only push some buttons and see the enemy die and when u have low hp now this heavy(Most HP) class escape faster than a thief(who is supposed has the mobility class) lol seems logic =D
GG anet for the top balance!

Sensotix.4106:

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

that’s some serious elitism and discrimination you got there.

PvE and WvW players are here to save the almost extinct sPvP population.

I was playing a bit of necro, engi and mesmer for a past couple of months. Few months ago warriors was indeed “free kill” (with exceptions for really skilled players), then ham – bow came to play. Amount of cc was crazy.

Now, after all this balance patches, playing a bit solo q with my phantasm mesmer (not zerker, just to be sure, power + prec + vitality) I can have good fights against most of the classes. But when it comes to warriors, I don’t really care about their stances. An idea that warrior can passivly out heal from my two phantasms hitting him, and being able to cc and kill me at the same time, is kinda crazy.

In my opinion healing signet needs to get a little nerf, sooner or later. Make it part of active play, not passive. Overall I find current meta, regarding warriors with healing signet, pretty good. It’s as fun to play, as it was 8 – 10 months ago. Spirit rangers and condi meta was kinda crappy. Now, when it’s gone, it’s getting much better. (only talking about solo q, don’t know how it looks on team arena).

Slim.3024:

Um… What? BF roots you, just get out of the way, honestly. The once the animation ends, the mesmer has a small period of time where he/she is still rooted in place, and you can take advantage of that.

So you disagree that a 2.5s evade on a 10s CD qualifies as high reward for almost no risk, because it roots you in place and you can get hit after it ended on top of it dealing a good amount of damage?

As for Distortion… Last time I checked, it doesn’t give condi immunity

It’s usually a bad idea to rely on wiki when you are trying to make an argument. Distortion grants invulnerability, it’s not an evade. Way back when Blurred Frenzy would give distortion and also make you invulnerable, which later on was first changed from “distortion” to “blur”, which still granted invulnerability and subsequently was changed from an invulnerability to an evade, thus the confusion and mess you see on wiki.

As a side node, distortion even saves you from terror damage ticks, if you activate it while being feared.

, and I’m pretty sure that you can’t get 8s of it in one go, either (even with Illusionary Persona).

Illusionary Invigoration. Look it up on wiki!

You only deal a “good amount of damage” if you stand in place… It’s no different than Hundred Blades in that regard. The rooting in place also allows you more time to set up combinations, which I think you’re disregarding here.

Also, I just checked out distortion in-game, and, as expected, it doesn’t go through condi damage; any condis on me during Distortion continued to do damage, although I’m not quite so sure about the fear shenanigans you mentioned.

As for Illusionary Invigoration… don’t know that I’ve ever seen a build that used the trait. Undoubtedly, there are more effective ways to survive at <50% health (if nothing else, with Desperate Decoy) that don’t require you to sacrifice all of your clones, which tend to be your main offensive and defensive tools anyways (which, by the way, is another reason why Distortion isn’t as great as you make it out to be- you sacrifice damage output in the form of phantasms, dying illusions, and illusion crits for a few seconds of invuln). Taking IllVig also keeps you from taking some other very good options which tend to be preferable.

No one said distortion cleared conditions, just like zerker stance doesnt clear conditions.

With warriors, apart from healing signet, the stability uptime also seems a bit too much. In my experience, if I go full dps, I need enough CC to keep the warrior from hitting me too much, but with the uptime of stability it’s hard to actually find a window of opportunity.

And while the stances may have long cd (not that long actually), it is very hard for a dps spec to survive while waiting out endure pain. Even though the stance itself doesn’t take long, a warrior will usually heal quite a bit while in the stance so it can draw out a fight more than just the length of the stance.