Guild Wars 2

So, Kensuda and I had this idea in the Bear Document, but I don’t want it to get buried in there, because I actually think this will be a good idea.

Change the (4) and (6) bonuses to the following:
(4): Convert a condition into a boon (LIFO queue)
(6): Convert all conditions into boons (same conversion table as Pure of Voice – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice)

What this does is the following:

• It will remove RNG from the (4) bonus and serve with a bit more condi cleanse.
• It will remove any Stability that people currently get from this rune set.
• It will add a huge risk/reward factor to utilizing these runes; if you use your elite before you have any condis on you, you won’t get any boons.

/discuss

Acandis.3250:

So, Kensuda and I had this idea in the Bear Document, but I don’t want it to get buried in there, because I actually think this will be a good idea.

Change the (4) and (6) bonuses to the following:
(4): Convert a condition into a boon (LIFO queue)
(6): Convert all conditions into boons (same conversion table as Pure of Voice – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice)

What this does is the following:

• It will remove RNG from the (4) bonus and serve with a bit more condi cleanse.
• It will remove any Stability that people currently get from this rune set.
• It will add a huge risk/reward factor to utilizing these runes; if you use your elite before you have any condis on you, you won’t get any boons.

/discuss

In what situation do people view this as overpowered or underpowered?

I haven’t seen any compelling arguments, but have seen people saying to nerf the set.

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

the condition removal stays. and the builds that use this for stability will benefit a lot more from its counters not getting free aegis and stability than getting it themselves

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

ahuba.6430:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

the condition removal stays. and the builds that use this for stability will benefit a lot more from its counters not getting free aegis and stability than getting it themselves

The point of this isn’t to take away condi cleanse, it’s to take away the stability gain from it and to always give 5s of awesomeness right after at a very low cost.

I don’t think any runeset should give Stability, the way Lyssa currently works it’s like a get out of jail free card.

Acandis.3250:

• It will add a huge risk/reward factor to utilizing these runes; if you use your elite before you have any condis on you, you won’t get any boons.

For instance: Player A takes Ogre Runes, Player B takes Lyssa Runes. Player A is getting a reward and Player B is at a serious disadvantage.

Risk/Reward.

I agree with this proposition. This is a much better version of Lyssa runes. It’s true that some builds would be greatly nerfed with this change but in my opinion they shouldn’t rely on this in the first place.

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

So does this trigger when using Nature’s Renewal or Charge?

I don’t see the issue for Summon Flesh Golem, Signet of Fury, or Basilisk Venom. We’re in a condition heavy meta, nerfing ways to manage conditions just buffs condition builds more.

A better solution for balance would be to implement weaker low recharge Elite’s on the professions that currently don’t have them.

Acandis.3250:

ahuba.6430:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

the condition removal stays. and the builds that use this for stability will benefit a lot more from its counters not getting free aegis and stability than getting it themselves

The point of this isn’t to take away condi cleanse, it’s to take away the stability gain from it and to always give 5s of awesomeness right after at a very low cost.

I don’t think any runeset should give Stability, the way Lyssa currently works it’s like a get out of jail free card.

It’s not really like a get out of jail free card, unless Nature’s Renewal or Charge can be used any time, but that would be exlusive to the ranger and necro and potentially is a bug. All elites have cast times meaning you can’t be in jail already and get out. You’re taking action to avoid jail.

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Nerf all runes that some classes cant use. Engineer cannot inflict fear so nerf Runes of the Necromancers 6th tier trait since it doesn’t benefit. Why does my Guardian only have 30+ second cooldown heals so I can’t abuse on heal runes as well as my Thief.

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Nerf all runes that some classes cant use. Engineer cannot inflict fear so nerf Runes of the Necromancers 6th tier trait since it doesn’t benefit. Why does my Guardian only have 30+ second cooldown heals so I can’t abuse on heal runes as well as my Thief.

That’s not the point , it means peopel can spam the rune while it has serious benefits, a full condi cleanse and all boons for 5 seconds. Tell me, how do you think classes like elementalist or rangers are supposed to get their condi cleanses/boons? Through traits and far weaker runes like hoelbrak..

Shockwave.1230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

So does this trigger when using Nature’s Renewal or Charge?

I don’t see the issue for Summon Flesh Golem, Signet of Fury, or Basilisk Venom. We’re in a condition heavy meta, nerfing ways to manage conditions just buffs condition builds more.

A better solution for balance would be to implement weaker low recharge Elite’s on the professions that currently don’t have them.

it doesn’t for the 2 above skills, only the ones you mentioned like signet of fury.

Bsgapollo.5364:

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Nerf all runes that some classes cant use. Engineer cannot inflict fear so nerf Runes of the Necromancers 6th tier trait since it doesn’t benefit. Why does my Guardian only have 30+ second cooldown heals so I can’t abuse on heal runes as well as my Thief.

That’s not the point you kittening kitten , it means peopel can spam the rune while it has serious benefits, a full condi cleanse and all boons for 5 seconds. Tell me, how are other classes like elementalist or rangers supposed to get their condi cleanses/boons, through traits and far weaker runes like hoelbrak.

Elementalists have some of the best condition removal in the game so I don’t know what you want and Rangers have had a condition removal problem forever and it’s not like you can’t just use it with a higher cooldown.

Bsgapollo.5364:

Shockwave.1230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

So does this trigger when using Nature’s Renewal or Charge?

I don’t see the issue for Summon Flesh Golem, Signet of Fury, or Basilisk Venom. We’re in a condition heavy meta, nerfing ways to manage conditions just buffs condition builds more.

A better solution for balance would be to implement weaker low recharge Elite’s on the professions that currently don’t have them.

it doesn’t for the 2 above skills, only the ones you mentioned like signet of fury.

Okay, it says on the wiki there’s a 45 second ICD anyways so it wouldn’t matter too much for those two skills anyways.

Given how powerful condition builds have been shown to be, I really don’t have an issue with lyssa as is. If the concern is overall balance between classes give the ones that can’t already do so the option to utilize lyssa more frequently.

Bsgapollo.5364:

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Nerf all runes that some classes cant use. Engineer cannot inflict fear so nerf Runes of the Necromancers 6th tier trait since it doesn’t benefit. Why does my Guardian only have 30+ second cooldown heals so I can’t abuse on heal runes as well as my Thief.

That’s not the point , it means peopel can spam the rune while it has serious benefits, a full condi cleanse and all boons for 5 seconds. Tell me, how do you think classes like elementalist or rangers are supposed to get their condi cleanses/boons? Through traits and far weaker runes like hoelbrak..

This is still “my class cant use them as well as some other so nerf it for everyone” Thats all this is. IF all classes were meant to be able to use every runeset as effectively as all other classes then it would be that way already.

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Nerf all runes that some classes cant use. Engineer cannot inflict fear so nerf Runes of the Necromancers 6th tier trait since it doesn’t benefit. Why does my Guardian only have 30+ second cooldown heals so I can’t abuse on heal runes as well as my Thief.

That’s not the point you kittening kitten , it means peopel can spam the rune while it has serious benefits, a full condi cleanse and all boons for 5 seconds. Tell me, how are other classes like elementalist or rangers supposed to get their condi cleanses/boons, through traits and far weaker runes like hoelbrak.

Elementalists have some of the best condition removal in the game so I don’t know what you want and Rangers have had a condition removal problem forever and it’s not like you can’t just use it with a higher cooldown.

lol no, ele’s got nerfed with their condi removal since it got moved a tier up. and that’s not the point once again. Every class has something different that they can do better than then the other class, for example a thief has the most acces to stealth, an ele will have the most healing abilities, a guardian has the better support skills, a warrior has more acces to stability and CC, and so on..

it doesn’t matter if ele’s or rangers have more condition removal than other classes. We’re talking about a spefic rune here and why it’s stupid that it gives so much without having an internal cooldown.

You said it yourself, it’s not like I can’t use the rune but that would mean I can only take advantage of it every 120 seconds or higher unlike every 50 seconds compared to a thief/warrior.

And give me the time to edit my post, don’t want to get infracted again by a mod lol.

Bsgapollo.5364:

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Nerf all runes that some classes cant use. Engineer cannot inflict fear so nerf Runes of the Necromancers 6th tier trait since it doesn’t benefit. Why does my Guardian only have 30+ second cooldown heals so I can’t abuse on heal runes as well as my Thief.

That’s not the point you kittening kitten , it means peopel can spam the rune while it has serious benefits, a full condi cleanse and all boons for 5 seconds. Tell me, how are other classes like elementalist or rangers supposed to get their condi cleanses/boons, through traits and far weaker runes like hoelbrak.

Elementalists have some of the best condition removal in the game so I don’t know what you want and Rangers have had a condition removal problem forever and it’s not like you can’t just use it with a higher cooldown.

lol no, ele’s got nerfed with their condi removal since it got moved a tier up. and that’s not the point once again. Every class has something different that they can do better than then the other class, for example a thief has the most acces to stealth, an ele will have the most healing abilities, a guardian has the better support skills, a warrior has more acces to stability and CC, and so on..

it doesn’t matter if ele’s or rangers have more condition removal than other classes. We’re talking about a spefic rune here and why it’s stupid that it gives so much without having an internal cooldown.

You said it yourself, it’s not like I can’t use the rune but that would mean I can only take advantage of it every 120 seconds or higher unlike every 50 seconds compared to a thief/warrior.

And give me the time to edit my post, don’t want to get infracted again by a mod lol.

Guardians actually have more cc and stability than Warriors and just because one Elementalist trait got moved doesn’t mean they still aren’t one of the best. If you are admitting some classes are better at things isn’t it obviously the same with runes. Also Guardian has more healing too lol.

Shockwave.1230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

Shockwave.1230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

So does this trigger when using Nature’s Renewal or Charge?

I don’t see the issue for Summon Flesh Golem, Signet of Fury, or Basilisk Venom. We’re in a condition heavy meta, nerfing ways to manage conditions just buffs condition builds more.

A better solution for balance would be to implement weaker low recharge Elite’s on the professions that currently don’t have them.

it doesn’t for the 2 above skills, only the ones you mentioned like signet of fury.

Okay, it says on the wiki there’s a 45 second ICD anyways so it wouldn’t matter too much for those two skills anyways.

Given how powerful condition builds have been shown to be, I really don’t have an issue with lyssa as is. If the concern is overall balance between classes give the ones that can’t already do so the option to utilize lyssa more frequently.

ok so I was wrong that it didn’t have an eternal cooldown, nonetheless it’s still basicly the same, no class has almost an ult every 45 seconds or less. If the cooldown would be between 60-90 seconds that would be reasonable.

For me as an ele I don’t really have an issue with it either, I just wait 5 seconds until the boons are gone and I go back into being offensive, however for a condi class like necro I can imagine it being a pain in the kitten .

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

glaphen.5230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Nerf all runes that some classes cant use. Engineer cannot inflict fear so nerf Runes of the Necromancers 6th tier trait since it doesn’t benefit. Why does my Guardian only have 30+ second cooldown heals so I can’t abuse on heal runes as well as my Thief.

That’s not the point you kittening kitten , it means peopel can spam the rune while it has serious benefits, a full condi cleanse and all boons for 5 seconds. Tell me, how are other classes like elementalist or rangers supposed to get their condi cleanses/boons, through traits and far weaker runes like hoelbrak.

Elementalists have some of the best condition removal in the game so I don’t know what you want and Rangers have had a condition removal problem forever and it’s not like you can’t just use it with a higher cooldown.

lol no, ele’s got nerfed with their condi removal since it got moved a tier up. and that’s not the point once again. Every class has something different that they can do better than then the other class, for example a thief has the most acces to stealth, an ele will have the most healing abilities, a guardian has the better support skills, a warrior has more acces to stability and CC, and so on..

it doesn’t matter if ele’s or rangers have more condition removal than other classes. We’re talking about a spefic rune here and why it’s stupid that it gives so much without having an internal cooldown.

You said it yourself, it’s not like I can’t use the rune but that would mean I can only take advantage of it every 120 seconds or higher unlike every 50 seconds compared to a thief/warrior.

And give me the time to edit my post, don’t want to get infracted again by a mod lol.

Guardians actually have more cc and stability than Warriors and just because one Elementalist trait got moved doesn’t mean they still aren’t one of the best. If you are admitting some classes are better at things isn’t it obviously the same with runes. Also Guardian has more healing too lol.

ya know what you’re right. cause I see so much guardians having stability without the expection of stand your ground and every freaking guardian is running hammer nowadays for CC.

Simply not worth the effort to type sometimes on these forums, no matter in what angle you explain it to some people they will always believe they’re right in their perspective.

With the amount of conditions thrown around, this would probably be a huge buff in most cases.

…And in other cases would remove more ‘clutch plays’ from the game like popping basi to aegis the enemy thief’s backstab, winning the fight. Or using your elite to stability stomp at the last second winning the game 500-499 (<actually happened, check SOAC Thieves vs Guards match).

Bsgapollo.5364:

Shockwave.1230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

Shockwave.1230:

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

So does this trigger when using Nature’s Renewal or Charge?

I don’t see the issue for Summon Flesh Golem, Signet of Fury, or Basilisk Venom. We’re in a condition heavy meta, nerfing ways to manage conditions just buffs condition builds more.

A better solution for balance would be to implement weaker low recharge Elite’s on the professions that currently don’t have them.

it doesn’t for the 2 above skills, only the ones you mentioned like signet of fury.

Okay, it says on the wiki there’s a 45 second ICD anyways so it wouldn’t matter too much for those two skills anyways.

Given how powerful condition builds have been shown to be, I really don’t have an issue with lyssa as is. If the concern is overall balance between classes give the ones that can’t already do so the option to utilize lyssa more frequently.

ok so I was wrong that it didn’t have an eternal cooldown, nonetheless it’s still basicly the same, no class has almost an ult every 45 seconds or less. If the cooldown would be between 60-90 seconds that would be reasonable.

For me as an ele I don’t really have an issue with it either, I just wait 5 seconds until the boons are gone and I go back into being offensive, however for a condi class like necro I can imagine it being a pain in the kitten .

Why would it be a pain for the necro? The necro can just keep reapplying conditions at a much quicker rate than 60 seconds, it’s not like lyssa gives condition immunity for 5 seconds it just removes them once. The thief doesn’t really have the staying power to make it’s 45 second recharge matter, and normally Basilisk Venom is a precast to combat so the thief can get the opponent to 50% health more efficiently to utilize some of its procs.

Lopez.7369:

Lyssa runes are just too strong relative to other runes. The full set is basically a fourth utility skill for classes that can use short-cooldown elite skills every time they’re up.

If this nerfs some builds, so be it. Builds shouldn’t rely on a rune set to be viable. If some builds fall too far following a nerf to Lyssa runes, then that indicates a broader problem that should be addressed through sounder game mechanics.

This argument doesn’t make sense to me. “Lyssa is a strong rune so it should be nerfed”. Pack is a strong rune too, should it be nerfed? Scholar and Eagle are strong too, should they be nerfed? Melandru is also strong, should that be nerfed? Ogre is strong, there’s a handful of standout runes. While there are numerous underpowered runes.

Should all the runes be relatively close in power? Maybe, but you can’t do that all in a month unless you want things to be like they were at launch where everyone was learning what works an what doesn’t.

If you’re speccing to get the full benefit out of lyssa the thing you’re missing out on is the strength of the longer cooldown elites, you’re also missing out on overall DPS, because power runes are better than precision for that. You’re also missing out on the benefits of the other strong runes.

I’ve debating taking lyssa for some of my builds, but for example on my thief it doesn’t make sense. It makes more sense for me to take Eagle so I can get 8% more crit damage and deal 5% more damage after I backstab someone.

It’s not a rune that’s clearly superior to all the others, it is a rune that’s good for builds that have sustain. So for the warrior it makes sense, and maybe that’s what a lot of people are seeing it on, but honestly if you’re taking Fury over Banner you’re missing out on a really Solid utility.

The fact of the matter is that there are clear tradeoffs people make by taking lyssa + a low recharge elite over a different rune and a long recharge elite.

It’s a strong rune, but you can’t nerf a rune because it’s strong or you have to nerf the other strong runes, because they are strong.

^On that subject, if it were overpowered you’d see every Thief running it (since they all run Basi Venom since the other elites suck).
But actually Lyssa on D/P in most cases are vastly inferior to Ogre for the massive damage boost and rockdog which can block important projectiles such as stomp interrupts or head/shadow shots

As for Warrior, Melandru with banner is comparable to Lyssa with signet. Do we really want warriors switching to the more passive alternative?

Actually, I guess after thinking about it some more, it’s really the condi clear that I think needs work for Lyssa runes, not as much the boons. So I guess I’m a bit more in favor of my original proposal, or something similar to it.

i kind of like that suggestion however some classes (thieves in particular) use it for stability… if this change was implemented they would never get any stability as to get stability from 6th bonus you would actually need to use elite first while already being CCd..which is impossible obviously

the issue is not even lyssa runes itself, it is just absurd amount of aoe/condi spam in pvp atm… direct dmg builds are becomming rare :/

If the stability’s a problem I’d just say to cut the stability. \o/

Jumper.9482:

^On that subject, if it were overpowered you’d see every Thief running it (since they all run Basi Venom since the other elites suck).
But actually Lyssa on D/P in most cases are vastly inferior to Ogre for the massive damage boost and rockdog which can block important projectiles such as stomp interrupts or head/shadow shots

As for Warrior, Melandru with banner is comparable to Lyssa with signet. Do we really want warriors switching to the more passive alternative?

Only thing I would add is that this would apply to hambow/condi. For dps warrior it would just straight up nerf, and no competitive player should be forced into hambow/condi, if they haven’t been already.

The popularity of Lyssa Runes is directly tied to the popularity of Condition bombing.

Nerf Condition bombing and you reduce the appeal of Lyssa Runes.

The problem isn’t Lyssa runes, the problem is that the other runes are kitten.

Great Suggestion. Definitely time to remove the “no risk – full reward” of this set.

I like this suggestion.

The people saying Lyssa isn’t OP its just the other runes are UP need to know those things mean the same, I know the are trying to say other runes need to be increased in power not Lyssa decreased. However that would add to power creep which this game doesn’t need more of imo.

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Nope. Maybe give other classes an outlet for this, but I see no reason to near nearly every class, especially when there are plenty of skillful builds that would suffer from this. Shatter? D/P Thief? HB Warriors? Most Necromancer builds? This nerf would really hurt them.

I FULLY agree with Jumper on this one. It’s too great, fun and overall, I think skillful.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Great Suggestion. Definitely time to remove the “no risk – full reward” of this set.

There are plenty of costs associated, you just prefer not to see them so that you can make your argument.

Precision being a low value stat costs alot in potential DPS (Look at any of Arganthium’s posts). Let’s also note that using your elite to clear conditions/generate boons also means using your elite when you need those conditions cleared/boons generated, which may or may not be the best time to use your elite skills.

Lowering your DPS increases risk at all points in time. Using your Elite just to clear conditions, generate boons, or both runs the risk of using your elite skill at a time where it will be partially or completely ineffective (yay BV on a target with 60% health).

shimmerless.4560:

Dee Jay.2460:

The popularity of Lyssa Runes is directly tied to the popularity of Condition bombing.

Nerf Condition bombing and you reduce the appeal of Lyssa Runes.

^ Bingo

There is a definite link BUT while once they may have been taken for that sole purpose I’m sure people have since noticed that a burried Stability boon is value in itself. The runes are very strong and need a rework and this suggestion keeps them valid as a condi removal anyway.

Bsgapollo.5364:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why nerf this? For some builds, this is basically the only access to stability and condition removal they have.

because some classes don’t have elite’s every 50 seconds for a full condi cleanse which does make it seem a bit unfair, wouldn’t you agree?

Some classes don’t have access to chill. Then should Anet remove all runes that affect chill?
Some runes work better in some classes, and some are near useless for most of the classes.

evilapprentice.6379:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Great Suggestion. Definitely time to remove the “no risk – full reward” of this set.

There are plenty of costs associated, you just prefer not to see them so that you can make your argument.

Precision being a low value stat costs alot in potential DPS (Look at any of Arganthium’s posts). Let’s also note that using your elite to clear conditions/generate boons also means using your elite when you need those conditions cleared/boons generated, which may or may not be the best time to use your elite skills.

Lowering your DPS increases risk at all points in time. Using your Elite just to clear conditions, generate boons, or both runs the risk of using your elite skill at a time where it will be partially or completely ineffective (yay BV on a target with 60% health).

There’re weapon sets that gain specifically more from increased crit chance than power, thief sword being one od them.

As soon as your weapon has an high skill coefficient and all atttacks have similar skill coefficient ( just like thief’s sword) your weapon is more suitable regarding precision, increasing crit chance, than power, because you have no “strong burst attacks”, meaning that weapon is min-maxed toward sustained dps.

Regarding the change and how Lyssa’s currently work, i would say that in most cases you’re using your elite EXACTLY when needed: mass inv when focused ( also by conditions) and basilisk venom is commonly nothing more than a “bonus” along with the condi removal, along with signet of rage.

The only “misuse” could be the flesh golem charge, but necro has so many condi flips that no one really cares.

Personally i would keep lyssa just like they’re currently, while just making the 6th bonus " convert all conditions into boons".

That would make it balanced.

If your proff doesn’t have stability there’s no way you should gain it with a rune set, not this reliably at least.

Coulter.2315:

shimmerless.4560:

Dee Jay.2460:

The popularity of Lyssa Runes is directly tied to the popularity of Condition bombing.

Nerf Condition bombing and you reduce the appeal of Lyssa Runes.

^ Bingo

There is a definite link BUT while once they may have been taken for that sole purpose I’m sure people have since noticed that a burried Stability boon is value in itself. The runes are very strong and need a rework and this suggestion keeps them valid as a condi removal anyway.

Of all the things that need a rework in GW2 Lyssa runes are just about at the dead bottom of the list. I have used Lyssa on Mes for almost a year (well before they ever became popular or any of the Nec buffs dropped) and the upside is that being struck with seven to eight conditions is no longer a death sentence. However you can still be interrupted while channeling your elite (BV has a one-second cast time, Mass Invis is almost two seconds long and highly coordinated).

The unspoken elephant in the room is that people want these dropped because of Thieves and Warriors. Other posters have already explained well the fact that you do sacrifice opportunities to take these runes: you will not hit or burst as hard. Moreover it is phenomenally difficult for a Thief to deal with getting condi bursted as Thief has little in the way of burst cleansing without putting themselves in a seriously dangerous situation. Someone else astutely noted that as far as Warriors are concerned they would just slot the next best (and much more passive) option and very little would change.

In essence I feel that with the game being the way it is right now, far more damage would be done by hurting these runes than any supposed upsides. Substantially tone down the sheer amount of condition application (regardless of its potency) and then you can come back to these runes.

Mrbig.8019:

evilapprentice.6379:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Great Suggestion. Definitely time to remove the “no risk – full reward” of this set.

There are plenty of costs associated, you just prefer not to see them so that you can make your argument.

Precision being a low value stat costs alot in potential DPS (Look at any of Arganthium’s posts). Let’s also note that using your elite to clear conditions/generate boons also means using your elite when you need those conditions cleared/boons generated, which may or may not be the best time to use your elite skills.

Lowering your DPS increases risk at all points in time. Using your Elite just to clear conditions, generate boons, or both runs the risk of using your elite skill at a time where it will be partially or completely ineffective (yay BV on a target with 60% health).

There’re weapon sets that gain specifically more from increased crit chance than power, thief sword being one od them.

As soon as your weapon has an high skill coefficient and all atttacks have similar skill coefficient ( just like thief’s sword) your weapon is more suitable regarding precision, increasing crit chance, than power, because you have no “strong burst attacks”, meaning that weapon is min-maxed toward sustained dps.

I’ll have to take your word on that. Assuming what you say is true, it still doesn’t change the fact that it’s less valuable than power for some weaponsets.

Regarding the change and how Lyssa’s currently work, i would say that in most cases you’re using your elite EXACTLY when needed: mass inv when focused ( also by conditions) and basilisk venom is commonly nothing more than a “bonus” along with the condi removal, along with signet of rage.

The only “misuse” could be the flesh golem charge, but necro has so many condi flips that no one really cares.

“Most cases” is an exaggeration. There are too many variables to list all the possible scenarios. While there are certainly times your need for condition removal, your ability to take advantage of all of the boons you get, and your elite being used at the right time will coincide, it’s much more likely you’ll be getting reduced/almost no benefits from some of the effects if you’re aiming to use one of said effects to its fullest.

Personally i would keep lyssa just like they’re currently, while just making the 6th bonus " convert all conditions into boons".

That would make it balanced.

That would make Lyssa’s really bad.

If your proff doesn’t have stability there’s no way you should gain it with a rune set, not this reliably at least.

Anet seems to disagree – this isn’t the first “Lyssa’s is OP” post – I don’t even think it’s the 5th.

I would rather have the lyssa runes #6 suffer a 60-90 second internal cooldown. That way you would see much less spamming and abuse with classes that benefit way too much with low level elites. The idea sounds good, however I think just giving it a ICD would work much better than reworking most of the rune set.

Countless

Trigr.6481:

I would rather have the lyssa runes #6 suffer a 60-90 second internal cooldown. That way you would see much less spamming and abuse with classes that benefit way too much with low level elites. The idea sounds good, however I think just giving it a ICD would work much better than reworking most of the rune set.

Countless

That would make thief basi venom really counter intuitive.

It’s no more different than Bear suggesting to give a 30 secs ICD to sleight of hand, when steal comes off CD at 21.

The issue is that Lyssa gives too many boons ( a 5 secs of stab, prot and aegis= awesomeness) to professions with already plenty of in-built defense ( mez-thief-war but especially last 2).

If lyssa is REALLY used for the condi clear, than just leave it there.

If you use lyssa for those 5 secs of awesomeness, than it’s true they’re OP.

Lopez.7369:

Shockwave.1230:

This argument doesn’t make sense to me. “Lyssa is a strong rune so it should be nerfed”. Pack is a strong rune too, should it be nerfed? Scholar and Eagle are strong too, should they be nerfed? Melandru is also strong, should that be nerfed? Ogre is strong, there’s a handful of standout runes. While there are numerous underpowered runes.

You completely misread my post. I never said Lyssa runes should be nerfed because they’re strong; I said they should be nerfed because they’re too strong compared to other runes. Huge difference.

For reference, all the runes you listed do not provide anything close to a fourth utility skill. Lyssa runes do.

I acknowledge your point and disagree. Ogre has a rock dog which is like a utility skill. Many runes have passive buffs that act like a signet, runes have healing skill effects too like lyssa and others.

There’s plenty of rune sets that act like a strong utility. People just don’t like that lyssa gives stability to builds that normally don’t have it or condition cleanse to builds that normally don’t have it. There’s standout runes like the ones I’ve mentioned and weak runes.

I still have yet to see a compelling reason lyssa should be nerfed. Giving builds condition removal or stability is like saying Ogre should be nerfed because it’s like having the superior sigil of force and a pet summon on builds that normally wouldn’t have a pet and that extra damage.

The point of this isn’t to nerf the condi clear, since we all know condis are really strong right now. In fact this rebalance suggestion would buff the condi clear they get.

The point is to get rid of:

• reliable stability gain from an already good runeset
• not always get all boons

You really havent given a good reason besides you guys dont want certain classes to have stability and that not all classes have low cd elites. All of that is very childish to me, its like saying if i cant have it no one can.

shimmerless.4560:

Coulter.2315:

shimmerless.4560:

Dee Jay.2460:

The popularity of Lyssa Runes is directly tied to the popularity of Condition bombing.

Nerf Condition bombing and you reduce the appeal of Lyssa Runes.

^ Bingo

There is a definite link BUT while once they may have been taken for that sole purpose I’m sure people have since noticed that a burried Stability boon is value in itself. The runes are very strong and need a rework and this suggestion keeps them valid as a condi removal anyway.

Of all the things that need a rework in GW2 Lyssa runes are just about at the dead bottom of the list. I have used Lyssa on Mes for almost a year (well before they ever became popular or any of the Nec buffs dropped) and the upside is that being struck with seven to eight conditions is no longer a death sentence. However you can still be interrupted while channeling your elite (BV has a one-second cast time, Mass Invis is almost two seconds long and highly coordinated).

The unspoken elephant in the room is that people want these dropped because of Thieves and Warriors. Other posters have already explained well the fact that you do sacrifice opportunities to take these runes: you will not hit or burst as hard. Moreover it is phenomenally difficult for a Thief to deal with getting condi bursted as Thief has little in the way of burst cleansing without putting themselves in a seriously dangerous situation. Someone else astutely noted that as far as Warriors are concerned they would just slot the next best (and much more passive) option and very little would change.

In essence I feel that with the game being the way it is right now, far more damage would be done by hurting these runes than any supposed upsides. Substantially tone down the sheer amount of condition application (regardless of its potency) and then you can come back to these runes.

I never said Lyssa runes are at the top of the list for changes, but they are on the list (as you yourself have just said). We’re in agreement.

Yes to the warriors and thieves benefiting a lot from burried Stab, the change stated above keeps the rune set strong vs condis but reduces the easy access and difficult to strip Stab. I’m not sure why you’re arguing against the proposed change tbh.

Lopez.7369:

Shockwave.1230:

I acknowledge your point and disagree. Ogre has a rock dog which is like a utility skill. Many runes have passive buffs that act like a signet, runes have healing skill effects too like lyssa and others.

There’s plenty of rune sets that act like a strong utility. People just don’t like that lyssa gives stability to builds that normally don’t have it or condition cleanse to builds that normally don’t have it. There’s standout runes like the ones I’ve mentioned and weak runes.

I still have yet to see a compelling reason lyssa should be nerfed. Giving builds condition removal or stability is like saying Ogre should be nerfed because it’s like having the superior sigil of force and a pet summon on builds that normally wouldn’t have a pet and that extra damage.

Rock dog is not a utility skill. It’s OK, but it’s not changing fights or builds. Lyssa runes go much, much farther by completely cleansing conditions and applying every boon in the game.

In other words, Lyssa runes are much stronger than other runes for classes that can take advantage of them. It’s not even close. That’s the imbalance.

It’s really not imbalanced, if it were lyssa would be the only logical option. The fact that it’s not imbalanced is why you see builds without Lyssa.

I agree with Ken: the boons are nice, especially stab/aegis for some survival, but its really the condi-wipe that makes them so strong. Perhaps the stab helps on classes that already have really high uptime (warrior), but its the condis that matter more.

In fact, making the 4-slot stronger would keep these runes at approx. the same power-level. Reducing the number or condis cleared or adding an ICD would be more fair. I always feel like its just insane that some builds can get all of their necessary condi-clear from just the runes or runes + traits (such as cleansing ire + lyssa/signet of rage) makes it seem a little bit imba.

In fact, giving it the same treatment as corrupt boon (i.e. fewer boons/condis wiped) would be a good thing. Nerfing corrupt boon removed the only thing keeping these runes in check (as corrupting post-lyssa was almost instant-death).

BlackBeard.2873:

I agree with Ken: the boons are nice, especially stab/aegis for some survival, but its really the condi-wipe that makes them so strong. Perhaps the stab helps on classes that already have really high uptime (warrior), but its the condis that matter more.

In fact, making the 4-slot stronger would keep these runes at approx. the same power-level. Reducing the number or condis cleared or adding an ICD would be more fair. I always feel like its just insane that some builds can get all of their necessary condi-clear from just the runes or runes + traits (such as cleansing ire + lyssa/signet of rage) makes it seem a little bit imba.

In fact, giving it the same treatment as corrupt boon (i.e. fewer boons/condis wiped) would be a good thing. Nerfing corrupt boon removed the only thing keeping these runes in check (as corrupting post-lyssa was almost instant-death).

The boons have a 5-7 second duration. It’s highly unlikely that 1 boon rip from one profession kept this runeset balanced. Considering there were 7 other professions without a complete boon rip it shows that the necro skill in quesiton didn’t make this skill not OP, it’s always been not OP.

Lyssa isn’t even the problem, why? Its not favorable on Ele at all. On Engi? Who the hell does that?

Lyssa’s only good on two characters, maybe four if you count guardian’s renewed focus and Mesmer mass invis. Other than that, the OP is just frustrated because Warriors destroy him.

Lyssa Warriors are indeed strong but that just means Warriors themselves need to be toned down.

Amir.1570:

Lyssa isn’t even the problem, why? Its not favorable on Ele at all. On Engi? Who the hell does that?

Lyssa’s only good on two characters, maybe four if you count guardian’s renewed focus and Mesmer mass invis. Other than that, the OP is just frustrated because Warriors destroy him.

Lyssa Warriors are indeed strong but that just means Warriors themselves need to be toned down.

Warrior, thief, mesmer, necromancer and guardian use Lyssa a lot. Engineer has one elite they can use for it (Elixir X), although that’s more rare. The problem people see is that this rune set makes choosing runes way too easy for certain classes. Why on earth would you use anything but lyssa on a thief? It gives you a new stomp. It clears a condi burst. It blocks an attack. It gives a short burst of swiftness. It’s just really really good. The argument I present is that maybe other runes should be pushed up to this level, especially the ones that are on elite. That, or just do a tiny nerf such as removing some of the boons given.