Guild Wars 2

I’m tired of being jerked back and forth in place for 10+ matches ANet.

I want to earn achievements that are tied to pips. But I can’t do that when MMR is what determines your matchmaking instead of your pips. On top of that, we can’t even find out what our personal MMR is anywhere, so we’re subjected to mysterious forces.

Please pick one or the other for matchmaking ANet. This is really frustrating.

I agree, i have no interest of grinding my way to legendary in season 4.

I did in season 1 because i felt it would mean something, then it came super easy in 2 & 3 so the question just becomes where do i actually belong?

Lets be honest, legendary comes with 5 AP and a title. I dont see why i would have to play 200-300 games to earn it when i played 150 and less in seasons 2 and 3. Especially when i can see im going no where.

Either i belong or i dont, everyone got there legendary back armor so whats the deal?

I just played 3 hours and got nowhere.

Remind me how this is about fun again?

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because pips have nothing to do with MMR, especially in current season where it doesn’t matter whether you beat good team or bad team – you still get same amount of pips (1 lol).

It is also reason why in s1 players with higher MMR had tough matches in every division (from amber to legend) while low MMR players had an easy ride. Let’s not forget the amber shopping abuse that we did warn you about when leagues were announced.

You also lied to us – you guys said before s1 that you will reset MMR but you didn’t. Which leads to older accounts being forced to carry players that are new to pvp which start with average MMR.

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because to make them play nice with each other, without impairing matchmaking, requires pips to behave in very specific ways that are more complex than anything currently on the table.

If they do not behave the right way, one or more of the three – MMR, matchmaking, or pips – will behave poorly. In seasons 1 and 4, you chose pips; in 2 and 3, matchmaking.

We already relied on MMR for a long time, so what happens if you use only the pips system ? Isn’t it supposed to level the players by itself ? The question is, how much time does the ladder needs to stabilise itself.

The problem is pips are shining with so much intensity that people get frustrated when they don’t see them move…

Evan Lesh.3295:

The current system is definitely trying to do too many things and each aspect suffers because of this. I think pips are an appealing reward system and I also think MMR is a good skill system. We need to work on getting each part of the system focusing on what they do best.

Agree

That doesn’t mean that skill (mmr) shouldn’t affect rewards though. It’s the reverse that doesn’t work well (pips affecting matchups).

Good players who don’t have the time to commit to a team should get something out of playing at a high level.

soloq leaderboards were fun, the app could do with an upgrade but it worked IMO.

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Isnt that the little girl who suggest the hard tacos shells with round bottoms when people are trying to choose between old school taco shells and soft taco wraps?

Irony in the photo to response ………………………………?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Ensign.2189:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because to make them play nice with each other, without impairing matchmaking, requires pips to behave in very specific ways that are more complex than anything currently on the table.

If they do not behave the right way, one or more of the three – MMR, matchmaking, or pips – will behave poorly. In seasons 1 and 4, you chose pips; in 2 and 3, matchmaking.

The current system is definitely trying to do too many things and each aspect suffers because of this. I think pips are an appealing reward system and I also think MMR is a good skill system. We need to work on getting each part of the system focusing on what they do best.

I think it would be interesting if you removed pips from the matchmaking system and strictly use MMR. Some people might be feeling restricted with both being used as they have been, I know I have at some points. With pips taking more of a sideline I feel like ranked might become more engaging for players if they are paired with someone in Diamond or Legendary while they are only in Emerald. By doing this players can go up against each other knowing that; 1) They are going against players with a similar MMR, so in theory, around the same level; 2) Players might feel they can progress further with pips/tiers if they are matched with players in higher tiers and don’t feel restricted to players with around the same pips as them.

In the case of a MMR reset, having players play 10 or so matches at the start of each season would be the best way to deal with that so you don’t have white belts fighting black belts.

I hope I was able to make my thoughts clear. Im no expert on ranked systems but I do find it somewhat interesting.

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Forget that. We need 1 or the other.

(I love admins with GIFS/Memes)

continue its good anet work and forget the criticism that is not constructive, I usually say it was very good this new form of pips system, better than the leadeboard, the issue of too much stress some here is because catch bad people or are bad and always complaining of the system.

If you have been stuck at the same place for 10+ matches wouldn’t it make sense to say that is likely where you belong?

Obviously you are not capable of swaying the outcome of a match too much, so how is it you figure you should be in a higher tier?

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because achievement and reward progression is tied to pips. What incentive does someone have to maintain a high MMR? It inhibits their progress and doesn’t necessarily feel fun.

If your matchmaking system is based on the pips, then high skill players will quickly ascend to legendary tier, and matches will start to sort themselves out by skill. Progression won’t feel slow and irritating, nor will matchmaking be hidden behind an invisible veil.

If your matchmaking system is based on MMR… then achievement and reward progression should be as well. Thus, having a high MMR would be worthwhile and people would be interested in upping their personal game to get higher and earn the rare achievements.

But with both… I’m pitted in 50/50 win/loss matches and I can’t get tier progression. It’s like the worst aspects of both MMR and pips…

I’ve been sitting 5 pips under diamond for a while now and I can’t reach diamond. It’s extremely aggravating, especially after a slow start where sapphire was near impossible to break out of, and where I spent 3 hours last night and accomplished nothing. I spent another 2 hours today and ended up EXACTLY where I started. Why play the game at all?

If you have been stuck at the same place for 10+ matches wouldn’t it make sense to say that is likely where you belong?
Obviously you are not capable of swaying the outcome of a match too much, so how is it you figure you should be in a higher tier?

Surprisingly no.

Because matchmaking is restricted to opponents who are (mostly) in your tier, you aren’t actually facing all opponents who have similar MMR ratings to you. For example, earlier this season I was stuck in sapphire because I kept getting 50/50 win/losses. I managed to make it into ruby after much luck and effort.

And as soon as I made it into ruby? I zipped almost all the way into diamond with a winstreak of around 10 matches, stopping where I am now, just 5 pips short of diamond. And now I’m stuck again. If I had tanked my MMR at the very beginning of the season, I could have easily made it into Legendary tier by now.

It’s not “where I belong” because there is no place where I “belong” in a system that is segmented. I can probably find players of equal MMR in every tier.

TL; DR: I don’t belong in any one tier, because tiers are an entirely different form of segregation from MMR.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Ensign.2189:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because to make them play nice with each other, without impairing matchmaking, requires pips to behave in very specific ways that are more complex than anything currently on the table.

If they do not behave the right way, one or more of the three – MMR, matchmaking, or pips – will behave poorly. In seasons 1 and 4, you chose pips; in 2 and 3, matchmaking.

The current system is definitely trying to do too many things and each aspect suffers because of this. I think pips are an appealing reward system and I also think MMR is a good skill system. We need to work on getting each part of the system focusing on what they do best.

Perhaps pips are to basic.

In Uncharted 4 PvP each rank you need to earn 100 points to enter a qualifier (best two out of three or three out of five) before advancing rank. Wins and losses grant + or – points. Performance is then factored in awarding additional points to either advance progress from wins, or soften defeats. So you will get a flat 10 points for a win, then up to 30 additional points for the best performance relative to the other players. A loss is -16 points, but best performance will grant you +12 points for a net total of -4.

By comparison pips simplicity means no matter what you win 1 or lose 1. So the moment you get a bum streak of bad team mates, bad comp, bad luck or whatever, it’s nothing but a tired frustrating experience. There’s not even incentive to play on if things arent going well for your team.

• Conclusion: Pips as a reward system are to simple!

As a side, failing a qualifier looses you 10 points, meaning a single win can bump you back into another 3/5 qualifier. Further defeats can drop you back down and eventually lose you entire ranks.

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

We HAVE both. That’s the problem.

Pips just do not work. It’s not a good system. It’s a race to the top. The only “competitive” aspect of it is who can get there the fastest. Pips just signify how far along the track you are, not how skilled you are.

MMR with leaderboard works. We had it in the past. It had flaws, but it did give you an idea of how skilled you were.

JTGuevara.9018:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

We HAVE both. That’s the problem.

Pips just do not work. It’s not a good system. It’s a race to the top. The only “competitive” aspect of it is who can get there the fastest. Pips just signify how far along the track you are, not how skilled you are.

MMR with leaderboard works. We had it in the past. It wasn’t perfect, but it did give you an idea of how skilled you were.

Careful what you ask for!! It wasnt perfect is the key word here, they swapped it for a reason.

Fivedawgs.4267:

JTGuevara.9018:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

We HAVE both. That’s the problem.

Pips just do not work. It’s not a good system. It’s a race to the top. The only “competitive” aspect of it is who can get there the fastest. Pips just signify how far along the track you are, not how skilled you are.

MMR with leaderboard works. We had it in the past. It wasn’t perfect, but it did give you an idea of how skilled you were.

Careful what you ask for!! It wasnt perfect is the key word here, they swapped it for a reason.

Yeah, I should reconsider that.

JTGuevara.9018:

Fivedawgs.4267:

JTGuevara.9018:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

We HAVE both. That’s the problem.

Pips just do not work. It’s not a good system. It’s a race to the top. The only “competitive” aspect of it is who can get there the fastest. Pips just signify how far along the track you are, not how skilled you are.

MMR with leaderboard works. We had it in the past. It wasn’t perfect, but it did give you an idea of how skilled you were.

Careful what you ask for!! It wasnt perfect is the key word here, they swapped it for a reason.

Yeah, I should reconsider that.

I was gonna say, that system was kinda wonky. It was… functional, but not ideal either. I honestly like the pips system, I think it should be used for matchmaking purposes — IE matching you with opponents within a few pips of you. After you reach legendary, it should attempt to match you with enemies close to your prestige.

Vagrant.7206:

JTGuevara.9018:

Fivedawgs.4267:

JTGuevara.9018:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

We HAVE both. That’s the problem.

Pips just do not work. It’s not a good system. It’s a race to the top. The only “competitive” aspect of it is who can get there the fastest. Pips just signify how far along the track you are, not how skilled you are.

MMR with leaderboard works. We had it in the past. It wasn’t perfect, but it did give you an idea of how skilled you were.

Careful what you ask for!! It wasnt perfect is the key word here, they swapped it for a reason.

Yeah, I should reconsider that.

I was gonna say, that system was kinda wonky. It was… functional, but not ideal either. I honestly like the pips system, I think it should be used for matchmaking purposes — IE matching you with opponents within a few pips of you. After you reach legendary, it should attempt to match you with enemies close to your prestige.

Yeah leaderboard had flaws, but at least it gave us an idea of how skilled you were.

You could use pips only and make it possible to lose divisons. It’ll filter itself.

If you’re adamant on using MMR then lessen its ‘importance’. So that it only matters in 1-3 tiers (not cross-division) etc. But I honestly feel that pips should do the job.

You could use MMR for placement matches to put someone in the appropriate division/tier?

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because after several iterations you still haven’t figured nor even get close to how to do it (Just an opinion. If you feel satisfied with this last S4 system, it would be good to know it so we get an idea on what we should expect in the future).

If you try to make divisions to mirror player skill level (which you can only measure through MMR), as you did for S2 and S3, you produce overall bad quality matches, introduce a dangerous bias on MMR ratings and, since many players just quit once they reach the top division and the seasons are really long, you don’t really get a good final skill spread.

On the other hand, if you use MMR to produce quality matches, as you did for S1 and S4, you end up with a painful grind based system (for SoloQers, at least) where everybody plays on his own “bracket” and advancing through divisions is mostly about spamming games, with little correlation to skill (we might think that players who play a lot are likely going to be better, so there’s probably some slight relation). The funniest part of this systems is that, since similar MMR playerbase segments are segregated through division based on the amount of games they play and league placement is still used for matchmaking purposes, the quality of the games isn’t even good.

At this point, and based on what it seems you’re trying to achieve, you could just ignore pips and leagues and try to produce quality games around MMR using the whole pool of active players. Then throw in some insanely grindy reward track, introduce some kind of MMR based multiplier so better players advance faster, and you’re done.

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Why not remove both (this league) :p ? It leads only to more frustration and less players playing pvp. I aggree with the fact that you have to choose between pips and mmr because the matchmaking are really not good (class stacking, 3 wins in row then 5 loses in row, somtimes good teammates, other times bad teammates who arent as skilled as i am, 0 progression between divisions)

I appreciate your efforts in pvp, but the rewards are not really that challenging anymore and the grindfest is very big for other players who want the pvp backpack too.

This isnt a hate or critism-post, this is just what i am thinking and it could be that there are other people who might not aggree with me.

Why dont you tie the pips directly to the MMR? When MMR decreases so do the pips – in any league. So a single game does not equal a pip.

Please make leagues like top 50 players are legend, 51-150 diamond and so on. The placement should be given by a visible elo and ppl n a division should face each other. Make more divisons if needed. This way good ppl face good ppl and games are balanced, u can progress to higher division by increasing elo. Skillbased system with good matchmaking and rewards for all players. U can add many things here but this as a base system might be really good.

The only thing I worry with an MMR only system is I play during OCX which doesn’t have many high MMR players (if any players at all). It would be nigh impossible for me to gain MMR as a solo q player vsing random non pro league players night after night.

I mean, my q times in sapphire were 12 minutes average. Legend q’s don’t pop so rip if I need MMR to get legend.

I only got legend this season because I played most of my matches in NA prime.

Brujeria.7536:

Why dont you tie the pips directly to the MMR? When MMR decreases so do the pips – in any league. So a single game does not equal a pip.

Well, the pips should be the MMR rating, ideally. Every season they get reset, and you face people who have a close amount of pips. You can move up and down divisions and tiers while always facing people with similar pip values.

That way when you hit a wall, you really do know that you are “where you belong.” And it gives an objective measure of your pvp skill to other players.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Ensign.2189:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because to make them play nice with each other, without impairing matchmaking, requires pips to behave in very specific ways that are more complex than anything currently on the table.

If they do not behave the right way, one or more of the three – MMR, matchmaking, or pips – will behave poorly. In seasons 1 and 4, you chose pips; in 2 and 3, matchmaking.

The current system is definitely trying to do too many things and each aspect suffers because of this. I think pips are an appealing reward system and I also think MMR is a good skill system. We need to work on getting each part of the system focusing on what they do best.

4 wins – 25 loses awesome MMR i guess i am not skilled T-T

MMR provides relative indication of a players skill.

If you want you playerbase to have challenging matches, then MMR is used for matchmaking.

PIPs indicate a players progression thru a league/ladder/season.

If tyou want to run a “league/season”, then you need something to show progression through the league/season.

Its just a question on “how do you want run your league/ladder”. And how do you incorporate these “PIP’s” for that particular league.

Elo or MMR call it how u want it should be visible and decide which division u play so it will give the matchmaking ppl of equal skillevel. Not hard to change and good matchmaking, avoiding blowouts and having weak teammates. No one needs pips, they are just sth u can grind by bein bad and is inflicting matchmaking in a bad way. Really sad to see players have to create their own macthes in inhouse for example cause matchmaking throws in trash players with professionals.

The problem is that at this point we have 4 specific things going on at the same time with pvp: ranks, reward tracks, league pips and MMR. They are too much and too overlapping for them to still have any serious meaning. Especially ranks and pips seem to be a lesser version of what they’re supposed to be (and what rewards and MMR are already doing on their own): giving rewards and indicating a player’s skills.

Looking at the system Age of Empires has always maintained, a game I played competitive for such a long time that it’s only rival is Guild Wars 2, was centered around one’s elo-rating with each rank having a specific title that made it easy recognizable. That is what league’s and divisions should be about; reflecting your stance in the overall GW2 scheme. Ditch the idea that gaining pips are tied to rewards; move that back to where it belongs: reward tracks.

Since you probably still want Seasons for promotion reasons you could re purpose them for some sort of competition with each division (just like soccer; where each league has its own winner). No idea what exactly… Maybe do something with different teams or servants competing for points either WvW or Pokemon Go-like? Or, more simple, make it so that with each season every division earns a certain reward but MMR is affected by a more severe decaying system during these seasons that might prohibit players from earning the reward that is natural to their place in the worldwide competition; thus swaying them to come back every season. And ofc, since you still want people grinding pvp throughout the entire season: introduce season exclusive reward tracks. With gems or black lion keys at the end for example…

Anyways, that’s just thinking out-loud. Central point is still that I honoustly believe that league’s should just be a visual represenation of MMR, not another reward track that happens to be limited to certain periods of the year.

SlimChance.6593:

MMR provides relative indication of a players skill.

If you want you playerbase to have challenging matches, then MMR is used for matchmaking.

PIPs indicate a players progression thru a league/ladder/season.

If tyou want to run a “league/season”, then you need something to show progression through the league/season.

Its just a question on “how do you want run your league/ladder”. And how do you incorporate these “PIP’s” for that particular league.

But once you have the MMR rating to measure skill and create challenging and balanced matches, what “progression” are pips supposed to measure?
On a perfect scenario, where the odds of winning should settle at around 50% for every single players and game, the only “progression” we can truly measure is the amount of games played, so it’s basically a reward track.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Ensign.2189:

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

Because to make them play nice with each other, without impairing matchmaking, requires pips to behave in very specific ways that are more complex than anything currently on the table.

If they do not behave the right way, one or more of the three – MMR, matchmaking, or pips – will behave poorly. In seasons 1 and 4, you chose pips; in 2 and 3, matchmaking.

The current system is definitely trying to do too many things and each aspect suffers because of this. I think pips are an appealing reward system and I also think MMR is a good skill system. We need to work on getting each part of the system focusing on what they do best.

Took you only 4 seasons to realize that pips shouldnt be used to artificially decrease size of playerpool because bigger playerpool results in more accurate matchmaking, which in turn results in better match quality. /clap

In the meantime, match quality is horrendous and STAYS THAT WAY for at least the next 3-4 months.

Vargamonth.2047:

SlimChance.6593:

MMR provides relative indication of a players skill.

If you want you playerbase to have challenging matches, then MMR is used for matchmaking.

PIPs indicate a players progression thru a league/ladder/season.

If tyou want to run a “league/season”, then you need something to show progression through the league/season.

Its just a question on “how do you want run your league/ladder”. And how do you incorporate these “PIP’s” for that particular league.

But once you have the MMR rating to measure skill and create challenging and balanced matches, what “progression” are pips supposed to measure?
On a perfect scenario, where the odds of winning should settle at around 50% for every single players and game, the only “progression” we can truly measure is the amount of games played, so it’s basically a reward track.

Exactly. That’s why I like the idea of the pips system being used for matchmaking. You can advance as far as you like and see progression, not something that’s a pure grind.

Actually I like the current system. The only thing that seems to frustrate players, is that players think they can’t progress to a higher pip-tier due to their MMR.

So how can this issue be solved?

In principal it is easy, but metrically it can be a bit of a challenge. I would suggest putting the following mechanic in place:

1) The most important part is too tie MMR to a certain pip tier. People with high MMR would that way have a much easier time climbing to a high tier. Players who still need to prove themselves should naturally need to spend more time on their rise. This can be done in one of two ways imo, and I clearly favor one of them (the latter I will mention):

- Technically, a way to implement this is by giving people with MMR that belongs in legendary for example, slightly beneficial matches (in MMR terms) until they actually arrive there. However, this still doesn’t really show the impact of their MMR. Also, this could make things a bit too hard for newer players.

- A much better way to do this, would be to still tie MMR to some respective tier, and if players win while they are below their respective tier, they will get a MMR-bonus. The bigger the distance between the pip-tier that the MMR assigns to player to and their actual tier, the bigger the actual bonus. So for example, a player who according to MMR belongs in Legendary, will get like 8 bonus pips for a win in Emerald. There should be a clear indication that they get this bonus for being skilled! But a player Whose MMR says the player belongs in Sapphire would get maybe 1 bonus pip for a win in Emerald, conditional on that the win must be made with 200-250 points difference. This way people will actually feel super rewarded for having high MMR, and people with low MMR will still be able to progress normally.

There is one more thing that should be added to this system. Because what if MMR is low and the match-up is more likely to lead to a loss (lets say odds are 40-60 against), but the player manages to get a win anyway. It would now be silly to give bonus pips for that too, as bonus pips are given to HIGH MMR not to LOW MMR. Instead, they could get an “Impressive victory!!” Award. This could be something that for example gives some sort of chest, or reward track progression. Also, the player will know that there may have been only slight pip progression, but significant MMR progression.

Let me know what you think.

There is no problem with progress the problem is the matchmaking itself. The people good players get matched with or against are far away from that lvl of skill. This makes matches less interesting for both sides, the better and the less good ppl. If good and bad players are in the same division, matchmaking is bad.

The progress players should be able to make is in mmr. If u make it visible each player can progress xy% of their current rating and with enough rating get up a division. Not everyone belongs in the highest tier so rewards should be for progress of rating not for reaching highest division. Worse ppl can still get rewards but won t get matched with or against good players.

As long as good and bad players are matched with each other games are frustrating for either side and players have to create their own games outside of queue, which lowers the players for matches.

Make rewards based on % of rating progress or sth. and matchmaking/divisions depending on ur rating. Equal matches for everyone, fun games and everyone has the chance to get rewards/progress if u limit the number of players in each divison.

Pips like they are currently are just grinded by everyone, at the start q times are rly long as players need time to reach higher divisons, still everyone can do it so as soon as q times are shorter, matches get unfair and boring. Just remove pips, make rating (mmr/elo) visible and the system is much better.

Zero.6592:

Actually I like the current system. The only thing that seems to frustrate players, is that players think they can’t progress to a higher pip-tier due to their MMR.

So how can this issue be solved?

In principal it is easy, but metrically it can be a bit of a challenge. I would suggest putting the following mechanic in place:

1) The most important part is too tie MMR to a certain pip tier. People with high MMR would that way have a much easier time climbing to a high tier. Players who still need to prove themselves should naturally need to spend more time on their rise. This can be done in one of two ways imo, and I clearly favor one of them (the latter I will mention):

- Technically, a way to implement this is by giving people with MMR that belongs in legendary for example, slightly beneficial matches (in MMR terms) until they actually arrive there. However, this still doesn’t really show the impact of their MMR. Also, this could make things a bit too hard for newer players.

- A much better way to do this, would be to still tie MMR to some respective tier, and if players win while they are below their respective tier, they will get a MMR-bonus. The bigger the distance between the pip-tier that the MMR assigns to player to and their actual tier, the bigger the actual bonus. So for example, a player who according to MMR belongs in Legendary, will get like 8 bonus pips for a win in Emerald. There should be a clear indication that they get this bonus for being skilled! But a player Whose MMR says the player belongs in Sapphire would get maybe 1 bonus pip for a win in Emerald, conditional on that the win must be made with 200-250 points difference. This way people will actually feel super rewarded for having high MMR, and people with low MMR will still be able to progress normally.

There is one more thing that should be added to this system. Because what if MMR is low and the match-up is more likely to lead to a loss (lets say odds are 40-60 against), but the player manages to get a win anyway. It would now be silly to give bonus pips for that too, as bonus pips are given to HIGH MMR not to LOW MMR. Instead, they could get an “Impressive victory!!” Award. This could be something that for example gives some sort of chest, or reward track progression. Also, the player will know that there may have been only slight pip progression, but significant MMR progression.

Let me know what you think.

Oh please. A bit more caviar while we are at it? I can’t believe I’m reading this.

If you are good, show it and let the results speak for themselves. Do not expect free rides because of a metric that is inherently worthless on an individual scale. You are good because you play well at that game, not because you have a high MMR. Whether you like it or not, there is a difference between being on a winning team and being good.

SlimChance.6593:

MMR provides relative indication of a players skill.

I can’t.
It could if it would be resetted every season and if it would allow to differentiate solo and group players.
MMR makes no sense when you lose mmr while getting stomped by a group of 2,3,4 or 5 and it makes no sense when you carry that mmr from a bad season like s2 or s3 into the new season.

I have to agree. I have got to legendary pretty comfortably in every season so far, but this season, after a few days grinding, 1 game i get clearly past legendary players, the next someone who openly admits they never even played their class before and its just NOT FUN, or i gt 3 of my team amtes running around 3v1ing with no brain cells in opration.

This game is just not fun anymore. Like others have said, how can i get to legendary so easy (20+ win streaks) yet this season i can hardly get out of 1 div/tier. It’s just blindingly obvious and frustrating that what ever mmr system is in place is so volatile from game to game, unless you get win streaks, or team queue, your time pvping in this game is just a grind fest of frustration.

I hardly bother now. So sad, i have so much love for this game and its amazing combat mechanics, but this horrendous pip/mmr grind system just kills any fun, and creates a toxic community, and to be honest myself being toxic.

Well done Anet, 4 seasons in and you are STILL no way close to revitalising your pvp scene imo.

I get 0 pips for losing v ESL players by 10 points, yet i get 1 pip for beating pve heroes 500-0!?

You have a team rating system for the guild challenge but a pip grind system for non guild….why?

There is no rational way of differentiating a good pip gain from a bad pip gain, any effort you put in, how much you carried, or how close the game was…a pip is still a pip……please explain this logic…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Zero.6592:

Actually I like the current system. The only thing that seems to frustrate players, is that players think they can’t progress to a higher pip-tier due to their MMR.

So how can this issue be solved?

In principal it is easy, but metrically it can be a bit of a challenge. I would suggest putting the following mechanic in place:

1) The most important part is too tie MMR to a certain pip tier. People with high MMR would that way have a much easier time climbing to a high tier. Players who still need to prove themselves should naturally need to spend more time on their rise. This can be done in one of two ways imo, and I clearly favor one of them (the latter I will mention):

- Technically, a way to implement this is by giving people with MMR that belongs in legendary for example, slightly beneficial matches (in MMR terms) until they actually arrive there. However, this still doesn’t really show the impact of their MMR. Also, this could make things a bit too hard for newer players.

- A much better way to do this, would be to still tie MMR to some respective tier, and if players win while they are below their respective tier, they will get a MMR-bonus. The bigger the distance between the pip-tier that the MMR assigns to player to and their actual tier, the bigger the actual bonus. So for example, a player who according to MMR belongs in Legendary, will get like 8 bonus pips for a win in Emerald. There should be a clear indication that they get this bonus for being skilled! But a player Whose MMR says the player belongs in Sapphire would get maybe 1 bonus pip for a win in Emerald, conditional on that the win must be made with 200-250 points difference. This way people will actually feel super rewarded for having high MMR, and people with low MMR will still be able to progress normally.

There is one more thing that should be added to this system. Because what if MMR is low and the match-up is more likely to lead to a loss (lets say odds are 40-60 against), but the player manages to get a win anyway. It would now be silly to give bonus pips for that too, as bonus pips are given to HIGH MMR not to LOW MMR. Instead, they could get an “Impressive victory!!” Award. This could be something that for example gives some sort of chest, or reward track progression. Also, the player will know that there may have been only slight pip progression, but significant MMR progression.

Let me know what you think.

Oh please. A bit more caviar while we are at it? I can’t believe I’m reading this.

If you are good, show it and let the results speak for themselves. Do not expect free rides because of a metric that is inherently worthless on an individual scale. You are good because you play well at that game, not because you have a high MMR. Whether you like it or not, there is a difference between being on a winning team and being good.

I am not sure what you are getting at. I am simply trying to find a system that caters to the complaints I read here. Also, since I am a metrics guy myself, finding a solution interests me. This entire problem of not progressing due to high MMR isn’t even something I encounter myself. Probably because my MMR isn’t that high.

They are fixing the system enough next season. An mmr system like dota and cs is actually more of a grind than gw2’s system.

To be good in the PIP system, you need to play too much game because 1 win = 1 pip.

To be good in a MMR system, you just need to win versus good players.

Actually, since PIP is tied to time. A PIP only system would be a grinder heaven for players that have more than 40 hours a week…

Season 4 is too much grindy already.

Having a “time” variable into a “competitive” design is a delusion of skill.

tl;dr Fully skill based league should not use “time” as a variable to show “skills”. Players with 10 to 15 hours a week (that have trained a lot in the past or not) should be able to compete with the “good”, if they are “good”. (like it’s actually the case in unranked)

anet should split the two system

for pve players or casual give it pip system with its own titles
for pvp players put it mmr system with its own titles

the pip advance will be by how much you play the game and for every win you get bonus pip . like maybe 500 games per season

this way you can attract pve players or casual players to turn into pvp players if their mmr will go higher

so with mmr put the first 100 players at gold and next 1000 at silver and the last 3000 at bronze (dont know how many pvp players exactly so just putting numbers)

also more interesting way to help the pvp community is to give special icon of scholar for players with high MMR who group up with low MMR players and win with them

Evan Lesh.3295:

/fifteencharacters

http://imgur.com/a/pw4J9

Need anymore reasons?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

This thread has responses pointing out issues in the current iteration of leagues and using those flaws as reasons why a rating and point (pip) system cannot both be used in tandem as I suggested in my original response. The issues mentioned include restrictive matchmaking based on pips, small tier sizes creating a large sense of loss when dropping pips, and a lack of prestige because of win streaks and rating-based matchmaking.

With that said, I’d like to clarify my original comment regarding using both pips and MMR. Our goals for leagues are still the same: create opportunities for skill-based prestige, give rewards for effort, and keep a low barrier to entry. We’ve tried to hit these goals with different iterations of a catch-all pip system; each emphasizing a different goal at the expense of the others. Pips are an easy to understand system for delivering rewards, but we understand that rating is a more accurate display of skill. We are now looking at how we can leverage the strengths of these systems individually to better succeed at reaching all of our goals. Both pips and rating can be used within the system if they are focused on solving specific problems – not all of them.

if you want both system to work together you must need the pip system to be measured by self score and not team win/lose. only than you can combine mmr and self score

what is self score ?
no matter if you win or lose the base point you get is by your score you did . if you win you get more score and if you lose you get less score but either way you get some advance

like

self score and win = 2 pip
self score and lose = 0 pip
no self score and win = 1 pip
no self score and lose = -1 pip

self score should be by your role /class/build

so if thief didnt do much dmg he didnt do good etc…

Evan Lesh.3295:

…

Both pips and rating can be used within the system if they are focused on solving specific problems – not all of them.

PIPS to grind rewards.

Rating or Ranking to show prestige.

But don’t forget, Ranking to match similar Ranked together versus similar Ranked together. So, it would like (casual, casual, casual, casual, casual) vs. (casual, casual, casual, casual, casual) or (decent, decent, decent, decent, decent) vs. (decent, decent, decent, decent, decent).

The rating / ranking is just not to show prestige, is to help match-making put people of equal skills together so the matches are more “fair”.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

This thread has responses pointing out issues in the current iteration of leagues and using those flaws as reasons why a rating and point (pip) system cannot both be used in tandem as I suggested in my original response. The issues mentioned include restrictive matchmaking based on pips, small tier sizes creating a large sense of loss when dropping pips, and a lack of prestige because of win streaks and rating-based matchmaking.

With that said, I’d like to clarify my original comment regarding using both pips and MMR. Our goals for leagues are still the same: create opportunities for skill-based prestige, give rewards for effort, and keep a low barrier to entry. We’ve tried to hit these goals with different iterations of a catch-all pip system; each emphasizing a different goal at the expense of the others. Pips are an easy to understand system for delivering rewards, but we understand that rating is a more accurate display of skill. We are now looking at how we can leverage the strengths of these systems individually to better succeed at reaching all of our goals. Both pips and rating can be used within the system if they are focused on solving specific problems – not all of them.

If you intend on presenting a modified system to us, you need to do a complete MMR reset as well. With the damage that S1 to S4 has done to players, not doing a reset would be like fixing half the problem. You’ll have those who did pip farming with win trading, so their ratings wouldn’t match the division they’re in. You also have players in the mid-range whose rating are lower than they should be due to poor matchmaking for guaranteed losses.