Guild Wars 2

Elitist.8701:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

GhOst.4019:

Tissitra.4153:

There was a thread a while back whose purpose was to discuss build performance in matchups:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Meta-Build-1v1-Tiers-and-Discussion-9-3-2015/first#post4875852

If I count correctly, two people said that between cele ele and terrormancer it is 50-50, one said that it is 60-40 in favor of the ele and one that it is 70-30 in favor of the ele (on staff). Noone said that the necro has an advantage.

Also, a necro is not good against a mesmer. But even if you don’t believe that, blanket statements like ‘necro wins 100% of the time’ are not exactly plausible…

Those are personal experiences, hence why they are all over the place. Also, you are only counting terror. This is a Necro post in general and counts in power as well, not just terrormancer. Also you base your conclusion on what 3 people said? Show me on that list people in the top tier that said ele beats necro. Most of the results (if using that thread) you will find at best is a 50:50 combining both builds and situation. Only way they ele ever wins is if they LOS a lot (true and stated many times in that thread you are referencing). That requires them to get off point and loose it, to win. Everyone that stated ele wins said they LOS the necro. Can’t do that on point, and as a reminder, this is a point game. Either way it won’t be the fastest fight in the world. Option 1: Ele gets off point to try to win the fight, point goes neut and before the fight ends most likely someone on either side would have shown up. Option 2: Ele tries to defend the point and dies due to not being able to LOS. Power necro will tear through the ele and a terror mancer will corrupt your Armor and u are screwed as well. If you remember right, we are talking even fights, therefore everyone has their CD’s.

Either way doesn’t really matter. Necro would only be in that situation unless he absolutely had to. Necro would be better used in a 2v2 + anywhere else on the map and the team would benefit more from it.
EDIT:
There is 1 post from a top tier Necro in there that states Necro wins (terror and power) unless LOSed a crap load. There is 1 post from a top tier Ele in there that said Ele wins unless their Armour gets corrupted and power necro will always win. With all CD’s, that means necro wins unless ele can get lucky and miss the corrupt. You looked at ratios and didn’t read what anyone wrote.

Well you did start out with the claim that a necro is a hardcounter to a cele ele and anyone saying otherwise should learn their class. While I agree that the sample size in the thread I quoted was small, I think that it (and the severe underrepresentation in the current tourney play) is quite sufficient to disprove that. I focused on condi necro because power necros are doing better (while still not being a hardcounter to cele builds).

Back to what the original purpose of the thread was: I submit that the changes I suggested above are reasonable. In fact, almost none of them affect the current terrormaner build, they might however make other builds viable.

Seriously are you playing the same game as us?

In my experience a good DD ele has the upper hand vs terror necro. I was dueling Karina, one of the best necros yesterday, I won 3, he won 2, and those were in open field and the ones where I died I played unusually aggressive. On point I would’ve been unbeatable. Power necro stands almost no chance against a good DD ele. You have to proc CoD when they have no CDs and then get guaranteed dagger autos to win. You also have no way to bait LF to get out of wells. Most power necros dont even get me to 50% to proc CoD LOL.

About baiting lf, there is a way using ds 5 and dagger 3 that I can do sometimes…. but I also use wop and some eles will burn it on that… some…

condi necro is weak because it is OP and the meta is build around countering it.

lol…. XD

NeXeD.3042:

Elitist.8701:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

GhOst.4019:

Tissitra.4153:

There was a thread a while back whose purpose was to discuss build performance in matchups:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Meta-Build-1v1-Tiers-and-Discussion-9-3-2015/first#post4875852

If I count correctly, two people said that between cele ele and terrormancer it is 50-50, one said that it is 60-40 in favor of the ele and one that it is 70-30 in favor of the ele (on staff). Noone said that the necro has an advantage.

Also, a necro is not good against a mesmer. But even if you don’t believe that, blanket statements like ‘necro wins 100% of the time’ are not exactly plausible…

Those are personal experiences, hence why they are all over the place. Also, you are only counting terror. This is a Necro post in general and counts in power as well, not just terrormancer. Also you base your conclusion on what 3 people said? Show me on that list people in the top tier that said ele beats necro. Most of the results (if using that thread) you will find at best is a 50:50 combining both builds and situation. Only way they ele ever wins is if they LOS a lot (true and stated many times in that thread you are referencing). That requires them to get off point and loose it, to win. Everyone that stated ele wins said they LOS the necro. Can’t do that on point, and as a reminder, this is a point game. Either way it won’t be the fastest fight in the world. Option 1: Ele gets off point to try to win the fight, point goes neut and before the fight ends most likely someone on either side would have shown up. Option 2: Ele tries to defend the point and dies due to not being able to LOS. Power necro will tear through the ele and a terror mancer will corrupt your Armor and u are screwed as well. If you remember right, we are talking even fights, therefore everyone has their CD’s.

Either way doesn’t really matter. Necro would only be in that situation unless he absolutely had to. Necro would be better used in a 2v2 + anywhere else on the map and the team would benefit more from it.
EDIT:
There is 1 post from a top tier Necro in there that states Necro wins (terror and power) unless LOSed a crap load. There is 1 post from a top tier Ele in there that said Ele wins unless their Armour gets corrupted and power necro will always win. With all CD’s, that means necro wins unless ele can get lucky and miss the corrupt. You looked at ratios and didn’t read what anyone wrote.

Well you did start out with the claim that a necro is a hardcounter to a cele ele and anyone saying otherwise should learn their class. While I agree that the sample size in the thread I quoted was small, I think that it (and the severe underrepresentation in the current tourney play) is quite sufficient to disprove that. I focused on condi necro because power necros are doing better (while still not being a hardcounter to cele builds).

Back to what the original purpose of the thread was: I submit that the changes I suggested above are reasonable. In fact, almost none of them affect the current terrormaner build, they might however make other builds viable.

Seriously are you playing the same game as us?

In my experience a good DD ele has the upper hand vs terror necro. I was dueling Karina, one of the best necros yesterday, I won 3, he won 2, and those were in open field and the ones where I died I played unusually aggressive. On point I would’ve been unbeatable. Power necro stands almost no chance against a good DD ele. You have to proc CoD when they have no CDs and then get guaranteed dagger autos to win. You also have no way to bait LF to get out of wells. Most power necros dont even get me to 50% to proc CoD LOL.

yeah I was looking more at the power necro has a better chance than terror.

In no way shape or form do I think terror is a counter to dd eles.

Agree to disagree. If the Terrormancer gets the corruption on the Ele’s armor. Ele will loose. You also got a nice chill that F’s their entire rotation. Either way, Necro shouldn’t be head on 1v1’ing in open field against anything unless forced to. They have a huge disadvantage at that point (either build). On point (where you should be) Necro will have the advantage. In a terrormancer PoV, if you miss the armor corrupt, your chances have just dropped a lot. Problem is, you don’t see many terrormancers go for the armor corrupt. They use on other things (while useful) not the best option 1v1. A lot just see 25 stacks of might, corrupt it and then it gets cleansed. While not a complete waste, definitely not even close to the best timing to use.

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.

With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.

Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.

With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.

Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.

I’m actually not trying to act superior but clearly alot of us have a better understanding of this games pvp mechanics than you, I assumed it was because you were new out of kindness. If I thought you were experience and still thought some of the things you have said recently I would be much harsher.

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.

With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.

Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.

I’m actually not trying to act superior but clearly alot of us have a better understanding of this games pvp mechanics than you, I assumed it was because you were new out of kindness. If I thought you were experience and still thought some of the things you have said recently I would be much harsher.

Let me then kindly point out to you that your perceived superior understanding of the mechanics seems to be based entirely on the fact that you claim that something I wrote is wrong, which it as I just pointed out is not.

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.

With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.

Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.

I’m actually not trying to act superior but clearly alot of us have a better understanding of this games pvp mechanics than you, I assumed it was because you were new out of kindness. If I thought you were experience and still thought some of the things you have said recently I would be much harsher.

Let me then kindly point out to you that your perceived superior understanding of the mechanics seems to be based entirely on the fact that you claim that something I wrote is wrong, which it as I just pointed out is not.

That is your OPINION.

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.

With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.

Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.

I’m actually not trying to act superior but clearly alot of us have a better understanding of this games pvp mechanics than you, I assumed it was because you were new out of kindness. If I thought you were experience and still thought some of the things you have said recently I would be much harsher.

Let me then kindly point out to you that your perceived superior understanding of the mechanics seems to be based entirely on the fact that you claim that something I wrote is wrong, which it as I just pointed out is not.

That is your OPINION.

That mesmers have far superior boon removal compared to thieves is a FACT which will only take you about a minute to doublecheck on the wiki.

I think I will stop arguing with you here since your posts seem to have stopped containing any factual arguments.

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.

With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.

Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.

I’m actually not trying to act superior but clearly alot of us have a better understanding of this games pvp mechanics than you, I assumed it was because you were new out of kindness. If I thought you were experience and still thought some of the things you have said recently I would be much harsher.

Let me then kindly point out to you that your perceived superior understanding of the mechanics seems to be based entirely on the fact that you claim that something I wrote is wrong, which it as I just pointed out is not.

That is your OPINION.

That mesmers have far superior boon removal compared to thieves is a FACT which will only take you about a minute to doublecheck on the wiki.

I think I will stop arguing with you here since your posts seem to have stopped containing any factual arguments.

Your ignoring the fact that a necro corrupts them and a theif steals them.

the only reason terror necro is viable is due to its corrupt and CC and condi manipulation, you basically said they aren’t good at it and mesmers are better for boon removal which is not exactly true when you take into acct they don’t just remove they corrupt. So basically all the reasons why necro was viable you are saying isn’t yet you’ve insisted we don’t need buffs to dm and bm which is where we need the buffs… your posts are your opinion and you are entitled to have one. doesn’t mean you are right.

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.

With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.

Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.

I’m actually not trying to act superior but clearly alot of us have a better understanding of this games pvp mechanics than you, I assumed it was because you were new out of kindness. If I thought you were experience and still thought some of the things you have said recently I would be much harsher.

Let me then kindly point out to you that your perceived superior understanding of the mechanics seems to be based entirely on the fact that you claim that something I wrote is wrong, which it as I just pointed out is not.

That is your OPINION.

That mesmers have far superior boon removal compared to thieves is a FACT which will only take you about a minute to doublecheck on the wiki.

Not really. Quantity versus Quality, here. Thief boonripping steals some of the most important boons, namely Stability. Mesmer boon removal does not. A thief can guarantee a target doesn’t keep stability on demand.

Can a mesmer remove more boons? Yes. Is it better boon removal? Frequently, no. Plus, the Thief gets those boons instead, making their quality of removal even higher.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.

So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.

The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).

Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.

Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.

Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.

With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.

Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.

I’m actually not trying to act superior but clearly alot of us have a better understanding of this games pvp mechanics than you, I assumed it was because you were new out of kindness. If I thought you were experience and still thought some of the things you have said recently I would be much harsher.

Let me then kindly point out to you that your perceived superior understanding of the mechanics seems to be based entirely on the fact that you claim that something I wrote is wrong, which it as I just pointed out is not.

That is your OPINION.

That mesmers have far superior boon removal compared to thieves is a FACT which will only take you about a minute to doublecheck on the wiki.

Not really. Quantity versus Quality, here. Thief boonripping steals some of the most important boons, namely Stability. Mesmer boon removal does not. A thief can guarantee a target doesn’t keep stability on demand.

Can a mesmer remove more boons? Yes. Is it better boon removal? Frequently, no. Plus, the Thief gets those boons instead, making their quality of removal even higher.

I stand by what I said. Mesmers are indeed a lot better at removing boons, while being worse at stealing them (arcane thievery on a 45 second cooldown).

Hear hear hear, it seems like a top tier player skill issue. no?

I think this whole thread unfortunately got sidelined a bit. So to those advertising buffing blood magic and death magic trait lines: what specifically would you do?

LOL It got sidelined when you started trying to shout down anyone who didn’t agree with you way back on the first page – which was basically all of them.

this is funny stuff

They both need one grandmaster that isn’t god awful, vamp traits need to be stronger, maybe the protection on wells could be slightly buffed, a cd reduction of dagger 3 and speeding up 2s attack would make it worth it to grab dagger mastery.

Tissitra.4153:

I think this whole thread unfortunately got sidelined a bit. So to those advertising buffing blood magic and death magic trait lines: what specifically would you do?

A bm gm trait should be wells remove conditions from allies in their area when they pulse. This should have a 2s icd to avoid mega condi removal spam. This should be added to the wells siphon trait so they do both. They would make tanky support well spec more viable and necro needs condi removal options.

In dm i would buff unholy santuary to have its regen 3 times as strong.

I would also make well of blood a water field if possible and make weaking shroud an enfeebling blood blast finishers

Tissitra.4153:

I think this whole thread unfortunately got sidelined a bit. So to those advertising buffing blood magic and death magic trait lines: what specifically would you do?

Remove Necromantic Corruption, the trait is bad and is never worth running. Replace it with a pulsing blind while in Deathshroud. This has synergy with the tree itself, and also has good synergy with the Curses trait, which currently goes largely unused.

Have Shrouded Removal become a pulsing effect while in DS, with a 7s interval (can be 10 if this is just too good). Normally passive removal effects are 10s, but this wouldn’t be up nearly as often. This gives synergy with Unholy Martyr, boom, synergy, look at us creating all this synergy on Necro (don’t worry, the synergy goes on).

Ritual of Protection, have it pulse at least twice per well, as it is now it gives you at best 4s of protection every 40s.

Blood Magic just flat out needs vampiric/vampiric precision to be reworked. They are too heavily gated because of magical ideal situations that will never happen. In my opinion they would do far better if they were changed to be more like the sigils, which are gated by ICDs, but are much more effective because of it.

Lower Ritual Mastery to adept.

Deathly Invigoration. Either give it a pulsing effect (notice the theme of rewarding Necromancers for expending Death Shroud to help their allies? woah team support crazy stuff), or make it a bit stronger. The reality is that “flash” DS builds do not currently nor have they ever worked, so skills should not be balanced in fantasy land.

Quickening Thirst I have no clue what to do with honestly. It should either be adept and changed to work like the warrior trait (just flat out gives you 25% when you have a dagger, warhorn, or greatsword), deleted, or given more stuff.

Those are some ideas. All of the relevant traits are never used, so this won’t flat buff to meta builds, and most of them involve support. It is worth mentioning that I think a lot of what is needed to “fix” necromancers will be given via weapons and new utility skills (specializations), but I do think additions of more synergy would be a really nice change.

Tissitra.4153:

I think this whole thread unfortunately got sidelined a bit. So to those advertising buffing blood magic and death magic trait lines: what specifically would you do?

Step 1: make the siphoning traits, Parasitic Bond, and Parasitic Contagion all heal the Necro through death shroud. Parasitic Contagion doesn’t help Blood magic at all, but it needs to happen for consistency. Also, Regeneration should function through Death Shroud.

Then specifics to lines:

Blood Magic

• Merge Vampiric Rituals into Ritual Master at master level. Ritual Master is weak for a Master trait (only being cooldown reduction) and Vampiric Rituals is likewise weak. The combination would be suitable and open up a Grandmaster slot for something useful.
• Increase the siphon amount of each siphon trait. Not by much, necessarily, but rebalancing them around the average situation, not the “when the planets align and you have 5 foes standing still in melee for 15 seconds” situation.

Death Magic

• adding boons to the boon duration line. Ritual of Protection could have wells pulse Protection instead of just granting it at-cast. Dark Armor could be changed to “when disabled, gain Stability (1 stack, 3 second duration).” This would help prevent chain-stunning, but wouldn’t prevent the initial disable. Plus, further investment into the line would help improve the trait.

• Trashing Necromantic Corruption and creating a new grandmaster.

What Necro needs most is a f kitten HEAL that WORKS when you hit the key. Not a heal that takes WAY too long to activate. Seriously, I die so many times due to the heal not going off fast enough.

DeWolfe.2174:

What Necro needs most is a f kitten HEAL that WORKS when you hit the key. Not a heal that takes WAY too long to activate. Seriously, I die so many times due to the heal not going off fast enough.

The animation for both Ether Feast and Corrupt Boon are fairly prominent, but there are ways to avoid being CC’d when casting it…

I know how annoying it is, but here are “some” tips to get it off more reliable:

• Use Flesh Wurm to get to a more suitable position – I know it is actually not that reliable anymore, but yea, it is a way
• Kite and get out of the fight – usually, the points on this game got some elevated areas which are reachable by parcouring around
• Stall with DS – if you see that your heal is up, but you are surrounded by enemies, use DS to stall if you can (not when you get CC-chained), and try to once more get out of combat

Basically, try and avoid healing when standing close to Thieves, Mesmers fellow Necromncers and Engineers since they got the quickest acces to CC’s… Hambow to an extend, but the popularity of this build has diminished greatly… Avoid healing in group fights as well, since you might not get a benefit from it at all (focus fire can quickly burn through that heal again) – plus the odd chance you get interrupted is fairly prominent…

I hope it helps a bit…

Can take baby-steps by allowing the regeneration boon to work in death shroud, even though anet has been taking baby steps with necromancer for decades.

I’m definitely taking down some of the suggestions here.

Couple more general questions on top of that:

1. A lot of players here are saying ‘Necro is fine, you just need to build around it’. If you are building the optimal team for tournaments, why would you want to do that? Why isn’t something like war, ele, engi, engi, thief just the way better option because they can all handle themselves? Even mesmer and power ranger seem to hold their own better than necromancer (that said, I’m terrible at necro).
2. I like a few of the trait suggestions, but what specific suggestions do you think will help necro with its main problem: Surviving team fights.
3. If your team is terrible at peeling for you, what do you do to stay alive?
4. I find a difficulty of staying alive is two things:
   1. It’s hard to get death shroud when you have none.
   2. It’s hard to heal while focused because you have nothing to cover it with or sustain you (besides maybe wurm/spectral walk)

Active damage mitigation is a big one as well has recovery. DS should be smaller with faster access to it,self traited healing and regen has to work that’s more of a fix tough. Necro’s weakness is supposed to be low mobility so he has too be able to stand his ground or weaken is foe, SoV and US need to scale group wise, removal of ICD and healing based on incoming damage,siphons need better scaling,FitG need at least 3 stacks or DS should break stun.

Denial of CC is a big one, necro is the only class with no defense dedicated against range and have low mobility and stab,they’re very vulnerable to shatter mesmer,LB rangers and alike when out LF melee CC is an issue as well. Over all necro need better aggro management but it has to come with reduction of DS pool or it will never happen.

Edit: Skills like Corrosive Poison Cloud,WoD need lower CD and traited benefits. Weakness/blind/chill need to be more common. Just start small and will eventually balance out,don’t take baby steps and again lower DS pool.

I can’t really answer #1. I’m curious as to why those who do have Necros on their teams picked them, since there has to be a specific reason.

2. Realistically, new skills need to come along to give Necros some defense that isn’t just health. More health doesn’t help the necro deal with focus fire, it just makes it more annoying to deal with 1v1. Some traits could be altered to aid the Necro better, though. For example, if Foot in the Grave made Death Shroud a stunbreak on entering, it would go a long way (since Necros have the longest cooldown stunbreaks of any profession).

3. Spectral Armor/walk and hop into death shroud while hoping you can leave the area. All you can do. Alternatively, sac your flesh wurm, if you had it set up and hope they don’t teleport after you.

1) The reason teams bring necros sometimes is too blow up other teams in plus one fights. For instance, on the abjured phantaram can bunker far 1vs2 for a little while giving you a man advantage. Necros are really good in +1 fights because they can hit fear chains, have unblockable skills, and have boon corruption. This effectively means the other team won’t be able to 1vs2 on a point if a necro is part of the 2 (unless they really get outplayed). This is countered by not letting the necro get in an uneven fight.

2) Passive defense, stability, vigor, or another blink would be a good start. Specifically, you could buff signet of vampirisms passive, give necros more access to defensive boons through traits. You could make foot in the grave the DM 3 point minor, and give necros a trait that gives them defensive boons on use of spectral skills (Armor gives stab, walk gives vigor, grasp gives protection, wall gives retal). Then you could buff Blood magic, and gives wells higher total uptime (reduce cooldowns as well as number of pulses, Well of darkness especially is terribad in pvp). Also, a reduction of many of the cast times would indirectly make necros less vulnerable to interrupts (there are barely any instants or 1/4 second casts on necros). Another good idea is to make withering precision’s icd per target. Honestly though, people, including myself, have posted so many great ideas on the necro subforum, but it doesn’t seem like anyone has ever read that stuff.

3) The only way to stay alive if the other team is smart and your team isn’t peeling is to not engage in the first place, otherwise even with walk, wurm, and armor you will die quickly.

4) It would be nice if necros started with 20% DS minimum on every death. The heal problem goes back to a lack of passive defense, but I also want to note necros don’t have a guaranteed heal like other classes. Eles have signet, warrs have signet, thieves have withdraw, engis have turret, guards have shelter. The reason many of these are strong is that they are very hard or impossible to counter, and I think it is only fair that mesmers, necros, and rangers get a heal that is very hard to counter while also being strong.

I’ve been playing power necro for awhile now and I’m still in denial that it needs buffs. Is there hope for me?

why bother with this… there have been countless suggestions on how to make necro more viable and each update they are ignored and sometimes go as far as nerfing necro traits even more for some strange reason…. they have revenant that’s all they are going to focus on now so… time to switch and pretend we are still necros i guess

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I’m definitely taking down some of the suggestions here.

Couple more general questions on top of that:

1. A lot of players here are saying ‘Necro is fine, you just need to build around it’. If you are building the optimal team for tournaments, why would you want to do that? Why isn’t something like war, ele, engi, engi, thief just the way better option because they can all handle themselves? Even mesmer and power ranger seem to hold their own better than necromancer (that said, I’m terrible at necro).
2. I like a few of the trait suggestions, but what specific suggestions do you think will help necro with its main problem: Surviving team fights.
3. If your team is terrible at peeling for you, what do you do to stay alive?
4. I find a difficulty of staying alive is two things:
   1. It’s hard to get death shroud when you have none.
   2. It’s hard to heal while focused because you have nothing to cover it with or sustain you (besides maybe wurm/spectral walk)

1. There are two things that Necromancer is brought for. For Power, it is Lich, for Condi it is CB and overall condi spam when paired with engi. Lich is a way to quickly wipe a teamfight, so long as it is used well, it is undeniably the strongest skill in the game when used at the right time. Condi Necro is generally brought for Corrupt Boon, which allows for really strong spikes on boon-d up enemies, and to be paired with an engi for the condi spam.

1. Honestly? Traits can’t give us enough. What we need, from traits, utility skills, and weapon skills is: some kind of CC immunity, better sustain in teamfights (LF/healing that scales with enemies hit in a realistic way, LF from being hit that isn’t gated), and some kind of actual damage negation. Some CC immunity is necessary as a profession whose main forms of defense (conditions + healing) require constant casting and landing of skills. Sustain in teamfights is needed because our LF mechanic just doesn’t stack up. We either need the ability to gain more LF in teamfights, have much better AoE weakness/chill, and/or have abilities that give us some kind of skill negation (evades, blocks, etc.).

Also we really need some cast times reduced. Compare our cast times to pretty much any other profession and it is abysmal.

1. If my team isn’t peeling, I simply don’t live through teamfights. There isn’t actually something you can do about it. You can stay at 1200 range with staff, with flesh wurm set up to get you out, and that will certainly make it harder for someone to jump on you, but at the end of the day if your team doesn’t peel for you you are just flat out dead. We don’t have the ability of say shatter mesmer to use 3 different ports plus stealth to evade them, we just try to do as much as possible before inevitably dying.

I’m speaking on behalf of power Necro.

Cast times are too long, mobility is way too limited, and there are too few defenses to make up for it.

The intent seems to be giving Necro have a ton of life (and DS) to burn through as it’s primary source of defense. This isn’t working.

When focused (which is basically always) you just die. You can’t go invis, you can’t block, you only have one form of port (wurm, which is obviously subpar to all other ports), stability hardly exists, you can’t go invulnerable, you can’t leap, etc.

Overall everything about it is just clunky, slow, and vulnerable. That’s the best way to describe the current state of Necro.

Ghost, I never use armor of earth against necro unless I know they’ve blown CB. It’s not that hard to survive a necro burst on ele tbh, I just save water for the fear. I can tank poison+3 bleeds from LW+Soothing+Regen, it comes down to just using cooldowns to avoid dark path and then training the necro. Obviously vs the majority of eles that just copy the rotation a necro can win, but I’m referring to top vs top. Also, open field necro has the advantage. Karina kited me the whole time and the times he won he got me to blow cooldowns trying to catch him and then DS bursted me. You can’t kite on point, I would’ve dominated there.