Guild Wars 2

Another match to post. This one from last night, so good population to pull from the queue was available. Started off as a chaotic match, my team of Dragonhunters were instantly wiped at mid, I was facing constant strong focus from enemy team on my necro, had a player die in a 1v1 with Svanir, and our guy guarding home couldn’t 1v1 to save his life. So this match required me to be as mobile as possible to ensure we got our beast kills, defend home, and burst down enemies in mid and secure stomps and revives. It was a rough match, made quite a comeback from the lead they had on us from the start, and if we had bounced back sooner we may had even been able to win the match.

So, using the geometric average since it was mentioned that is what Anet is going by, we see Red Team’s average mmr is 1383, and Blue Team’s average mmr is 1405 (unless my computer’s calculator isn’t doing what I think it’s doing, can’t find my normal calculator). So my issues for this one here are:

• There is a duo on blue team. From what I understand, they receive a higher value for matchmaking purposes, which would push Blue Team’s average mmr even higher.
• I haven’t had the chance to go through and calculate what a better team split would be, but just looking at this I can’t understand why Blue Team gets the highest mmr player, 3 players being above 1400 mmr, and a duo. Meanwhile, Red team has the lowest mmr player, only two players above 1400 mmr, and all solo queue.

So I do need some questions answered to help me better figure this out.

• Does anyone know how duo queues are being factored in to the whole mmr equation, if they are treated any differently at all?
• Does anyone know of a set formula that determines the best way to split a series of numbers into two sets with an average that is as even as possible? So far I’ve been doing it through trial and error.

Thankfully with there being plenty of players in the queue, our team still had a chance to overcome the odds and win (though we didn’t, we were close though. ;P). However, it is matchmaking like this that is causing erratic matches when the population in the queue is much lower.

Played one match tonight, it was just bad. One of those matches where everyone had an attitude, the worst player running around calling the team bad, I even gave up on this match. Just couldn’t do it. Wasn’t so much a skill gap issue, more of the issue of it just being a group of solo players each doing their own thing and not wanting to work together. Except for the Thief, he was actually bad, I mean kitten , he lost every 1v1, entire red team is at mid and he isn’t capping far, he just couldn’t play Thief at all, was essentially a 4v5.

So I checked out the scores a little late on this one, but we had:

Blue Team 1380/1375/1367/1347/1344(me, yay not top person!)
Red Team 1440/1437/1408/1394/1363

So adjusting +/- 15 points for win/loss since I’m not sure and we have:

Blue Team 1395/1390/1382/1362/1359
Red Team 1425/1422/1393/1379/1348

So the sum of all mmr’s is 13855. Divided into two teams an even split would be 6927.5, or an average of 1385.5 per team. So I’d probably split the teams more like:

Blue Team 1348/1382/1379/1395/1425
Red Team 1359/1362/1390/1393/1422

Personally this feels like a much more even split between the two teams. Well, not just personally, mathematically as well.

Again keep in mind there was not a huge skill gap in this match, was just players with attitudes, can’t stop angry people from playing bad. The issue I have with matchmaking working this way is it creates horrible matches when population is low. I mean, I can’t even see the logic in the way it splits the teams, and that is what I am trying to understand. I even looked more into the whole geometrical average concept, and honestly can’t see why they’d go with a geometrical average unless there is another numeric value that is factoring into our matchmaking such as games played/won/lost whatever. In that case it does make sense to use the geometrical average since that is more of what it is designed to do, accurately compare items using multiple sets of data that have different numerical ranges.

So I don’t know what more I can look in to at this point. I mean, in every single match I’ve pulled mmr from, can see plain as day that teams are not split evenly. I will continue to acknowledge that this isn’t much of an issue during high population times, but can destroy matches during low populations. Without knowing the logic behind splitting the teams this way, I’m just not really sure how I can further understand such a system and what it is trying to accomplish here.

Silly me, I can see number of games played, so I guess I can try to incorporate that to see if I get similar results to mm to see if it is a factor.

Got another match to add. First match of the night tonight, just went ahead and added everyone to the good ole friend’s list to check ratings. Here was the initial team split courtesy of our matchmaker, this time with games played also added in parenthesis next to rating, bold one is me.

Red Team 1343(211)/1383(47)/1358(254)/1346(86)/na
Blue Team 1292(289)/1356(84)/1291(88)/na/1339(341)

So looking at the geometric average without including games played, we have Red team with 1357 rating, and blue team with 1319. Now one player on each team did not have a rating yet. So, as for factoring in matches played, I’ll try first starting by taking a geometric average per player, and then doing another team average. So:

Red Team 532/255/587/340/na
Blue Team 611/338/337/na/676

Then if we get the average ratings for these two teams from here we have Red Team with a rating of 406, and Blue Team with a rating of 466. So if we include matches played, it looks as though our team actually has the advantage here. Now let’s repeat this procedure, but this time only using games won instead of games played.

Red Team 372/178/412/246/na
Blue Team 431/236/230/na/491

This method gives Red Team an average rating of 286 and Blue Team an average rating of 327. Here we see Blue Team still being favored but by a smaller gap.

So as far as I can tell, factoring in games played/won doesn’t make any more sense of the system and it seems unlikely they would use this method in the matchmaking process. So looking again at just the ratings we have:

Red Team 1343/1383/1358/1346/na
Blue Team 1292/1356/1291/na/1339

I wish I could see the rating of the remaining two players, but I guess they must be in their placement matches still, or the Friend’s List just decided not to work with those two for some reason.

What I can see from the data I could pull though still follows in line with what I have been seeing every time I look in to the ratings of players in these matches. One team is getting stacked with a few better players, and the other team is getting stuck with a few worse players. Not sure how this is supposed to represent an even skill split between the two teams. It just baffles me really.

This match was lost pretty bad. There was a lot of disorganization. Pinging the mini-map or communicating through team chat or calling targets to be focused didn’t help. My team ignored the buffs on temple and fought off-point a lot. I usually win about 11 points or so per match, I lost 13 points for this match, so I’m assuming the matchmaker system considered this to be an even match-up.

I would love to see what kind of match-ups you guys are getting so I can compare notes and get a larger sample size, especially if you’re in different divisions.

Arena Net might not appreciate you sniffing around in their system like that, because you are uncovering their conspiracy they have been denying. Expect to get dragged from your bed one night. You will be remembered.

P.S It’s actually quite clever though, I just might pitch in, because I’ve had a feeling that I’m getting matched against teams that just has much higher mmr than mine, since my team usually doesn’t even have bad players, we just can’t do anything against their better working synergy.

Birman.1705:

Arena Net might not appreciate you sniffing around in their system like that, because you are uncovering their conspiracy they have been denying. Expect to get dragged from your bed one night. You will be remembered.

P.S It’s actually quite clever though, I just might pitch in, because I’ve had a feeling that I’m getting matched against teams that just has much higher mmr than mine, since my team usually doesn’t even have bad players, we just can’t do anything against their better working synergy.

Lol, if they take me away someone must avenge me and continue my work!

And yeah, I’d love to have as many people pitch in as possible and post their results here. The more data the better.

So I tried adding everyone into my friend’s list, but the names are not showing up on Friends and Guilds leaderboard? Not a single one, what am I doing wrong?

I’m not denying your oberservations about the difference of the MMR in the opposing teams, but I don’t think that has a huge impact.

After my placement matches (6 won, 4 lost), I was rated with 1300. I’ve played 94 matches so far and my MMR varied between 1230 and 1360 (currently after some losses it stands at 1268).

I don’t think my own skill changed just because my MMR changed for ca. 130 points.

Birman.1705:

So I tried adding everyone into my friend’s list, but the names are not showing up on Friends and Guilds leaderboard? Not a single one, what am I doing wrong?

Hmmm, could be a few things. First of all, you can only do this about once per day or so for some reason, so you’ll probably only be able to do this for the first match of the day you’re in. Second, the leader board shows the player’s account name, so if you are looking for the character’s name on the leader board, you’re not going to find it. This is why I give each player I add a simple nickname (r1,r2,r3,…….b1,b2,b3, etc) so that I can quickly look at the leader board and find them. If you are doing all of this and still you don’t see anyone show up, then I’m not sure what is going on. You could leave them on your friend’s list for awhile as they should eventually show up, the only problem with this is by the time they show up, their ratings could be very different from when you saw them in the match.

If nothing else works, you could always try politely asking the players themselves what their rating is.

Rhiannon.1726:

I’m not denying your oberservations about the difference of the MMR in the opposing teams, but I don’t think that has a huge impact.

After my placement matches (6 won, 4 lost), I was rated with 1300. I’ve played 94 matches so far and my MMR varied between 1230 and 1360 (currently after some losses it stands at 1268).

I don’t think my own skill changed just because my MMR changed for ca. 130 points.

True. Like I’ve said though, even though one team is getting higher rated players, as long as the players are still pretty close in rating overall the match can still be overcome and won, despite being placed at a slight disadvantage. The problem arises when there is a lower population in the queue, because then at that point the matchmaker is pulling from a larger variety of player ratings, and when the higher of those ratings are on one team, it’s a devastating lopsided match that just isn’t fun for anyone. And though you could say, “Well that is just a population problem, they should queue during prime time”, keep in mind that not everyone can play during prime time, and there is no logical sense in punishing those players when clearly the teams could of been evenly split instead of stacked in one team’s favor.

It wasn’t my first match of the day, so that’s probably why. I’ll try again later on.

@shaogin
the mm sistem it apears to be like:
1
pick 5 random players of aprox same mmr (create a team)
repeat repeat repeat
pick 2 random teams with aprox the same average mmr
release a match

Not
2
take 10 random players of same aprox mmr
split in two teams
release a match

this is the most logical explanation to stackings of highers mmr and classes cuz with method two they can split class and high mmr to balance a little teams

This might be the case, but that’s just crap.

megilandil.7506:

@shaogin
the mm sistem it apears to be like:
1
pick 5 random players of aprox same mmr (create a team)
repeat repeat repeat
pick 2 random teams with aprox the same average mmr
release a match

Not
2
take 10 random players of same aprox mmr
split in two teams
release a match

this is the most logical explanation to stackings of highers mmr and classes cuz with method two they can split class and high mmr to balance a little teams

This would explain why the teams are stacked the way they are. However, if this is the case, I can’t see why they would choose such a method. I can’t see any benefit to do that over just finding 10 players and evenly splitting them. I mean, I can’t be faster to set up a match that way. This would be a completely illogical decision on Anet’s part.

It could very well be what is going on. I hope it isn’t, but knowing Anet, it wouldn’t surprise me. They do come up with some crazy stuff sometimes.

People have so little trust …

ArenaNet has already stated how matches are formed. In a perfect world where we have 100s of players at every single rating point (100s at exactly 1600, 100s at 1601, etc) all queuing simultaneously, you will always have matches that are even.

Bolded for emphasis. That part is simply not true (look at the leaderboards and see if you can spot even 2 players of equal rating next to each other, and if somehow, you do find that, see how often that happens; this can then be extrapolated somewhat to all tiers; on top of that, all of those players have to be queuing at the same time for matchmaking to put them in a match together). Matchmaking cannot guarantee that people of equal skill rating are queuing at the same time. It has to do the best it can. When you queue, the system tries to find people as close to you as possible, and then forms the teams to try to even out the numbers. However, it will never, ever, period, be perfect when everyone’s rating in a given match is different. Even if the ratings are within about 5-10 points of each other, the odds that you’d be able to get a perfectly even match is very slim, and thats if by some miracle, players of close skill rating are actually queuing at the same time.

And on top of that, the longer you’re in the queue, the wider the search range becomes, and the greater the disparity. The system has to do the best it can with what it can get, and that particular split probably minimized the difference in average team rating.

I think the games are stacked to encourage streaks again, sadly. That was shown to be a less than optimal idea in s2 and s3.

I always felt S2 and S3 were best in terms of matchmaking as it gave me more stable and more even games. Right now it feels like S4 all over again.

Anyways, I got some first data to put it.

Blue Team 1642(112)/1478(336)/1473(222)/1464(602)/1445(151)
Red Team (me)1556(117)/1593(457)/1571(353)/1564(153)/1470(217)

I skipped all that math you did though.
We lost the match, because right after the first battle at mid people started enraging. In the middle of the match we got our teamwork working and held two points successfully and it was easy to stomp through blue team. However, people just had to start yelling again when there was trouble at home, people lost focus, rotation slowed down and lost it in the end. Lost 15 points, which is more than I usually loose, so I suppose matchmaking set up red team to win this.

Rashy.4165:

People have so little trust …

ArenaNet has already stated how matches are formed. In a perfect world where we have 100s of players at every single rating point (100s at exactly 1600, 100s at 1601, etc) all queuing simultaneously, you will always have matches that are even.

Bolded for emphasis. That part is simply not true (look at the leaderboards and see if you can spot even 2 players of equal rating next to each other, and if somehow, you do find that, see how often that happens; this can then be extrapolated somewhat to all tiers; on top of that, all of those players have to be queuing at the same time for matchmaking to put them in a match together). Matchmaking cannot guarantee that people of equal skill rating are queuing at the same time. It has to do the best it can. When you queue, the system tries to find people as close to you as possible, and then forms the teams to try to even out the numbers. However, it will never, ever, period, be perfect when everyone’s rating in a given match is different. Even if the ratings are within about 5-10 points of each other, the odds that you’d be able to get a perfectly even match is very slim, and thats if by some miracle, players of close skill rating are actually queuing at the same time.

And on top of that, the longer you’re in the queue, the wider the search range becomes, and the greater the disparity. The system has to do the best it can with what it can get, and that particular split probably minimized the difference in average team rating.

I think you’re missing the point in this thread. The problem is, the matchmaking system isn’t making matches as balanced as possible. I understand that population problems will have an effect. The problem I have is I’m seeing these ratings in these matches and can see that it one side was stacked higher when there was a clearly better way to split the players into more even teams. This problem becomes much more of a problem when queue population is low. So I am trying to understand the logic behind setting up matches this way, when they could be much better balanced.

Ithilwen.1529:

I think the games are stacked to encourage streaks again, sadly. That was shown to be a less than optimal idea in s2 and s3.

Though the matchmaking has its issues, I am not seeing any evidence of the matchmaker intentionally trying to force win/loss streaks on players to keep them at a 50% win rate.

Birman.1705:

I always felt S2 and S3 were best in terms of matchmaking as it gave me more stable and more even games. Right now it feels like S4 all over again.

Anyways, I got some first data to put it.

Blue Team 1642(112)/1478(336)/1473(222)/1464(602)/1445(151)
Red Team (me)1556(117)/1593(457)/1571(353)/1564(153)/1470(217)

I skipped all that math you did though.
We lost the match, because right after the first battle at mid people started enraging. In the middle of the match we got our teamwork working and held two points successfully and it was easy to stomp through blue team. However, people just had to start yelling again when there was trouble at home, people lost focus, rotation slowed down and lost it in the end. Lost 15 points, which is more than I usually loose, so I suppose matchmaking set up red team to win this.

Yeah, it looks like your team was favored to win there. Interesting numbers there, look forward to see more of what you get.

Shaogin.2679:

Ithilwen.1529:

I think the games are stacked to encourage streaks again, sadly. That was shown to be a less than optimal idea in s2 and s3.

Though the matchmaking has its issues, I am not seeing any evidence of the matchmaker intentionally trying to force win/loss streaks on players to keep them at a 50% win rate.

Why are there still people who believe that matchmaking gives a fair chance to both team every match?

It’s kind of painfully obvious that one team is heavily favoured to win from the first min of the fight

That’s what I meant by stacked. The mm appears to be once again encouraging streaks by setting up one side to win.

That seems fine and dandy if you’re on the winning end. Kitten, if the matchmaker favored me I’d be sitting in platinum.

megilandil.7506:

@shaogin
the mm sistem it apears to be like:
1
pick 5 random players of aprox same mmr (create a team)
repeat repeat repeat
pick 2 random teams with aprox the same average mmr
release a match

Not
2
take 10 random players of same aprox mmr
split in two teams
release a match

this is the most logical explanation to stackings of highers mmr and classes cuz with method two they can split class and high mmr to balance a little teams

This is what happened in S2 and S3 and I thought it was changed. If this season is being matched in this way its crap and just leads to poor results.

morrolan.9608:

megilandil.7506:

@shaogin
the mm sistem it apears to be like:
1
pick 5 random players of aprox same mmr (create a team)
repeat repeat repeat
pick 2 random teams with aprox the same average mmr
release a match

Not
2
take 10 random players of same aprox mmr
split in two teams
release a match

this is the most logical explanation to stackings of highers mmr and classes cuz with method two they can split class and high mmr to balance a little teams

This is what happened in S2 and S3 and I thought it was changed. If this season is being matched in this way its crap and just leads to poor results.

in s2 and s3 they introduced mmr to calculations s1 was only (or mostly) pip based but the system is that, first years this proces is transparent to user, you suscribed to q and you see how you rteam are filled (you see the names of companions in a list)and after system searched a oponent team

Supreme.3164:

Shaogin.2679:

Ithilwen.1529:

I think the games are stacked to encourage streaks again, sadly. That was shown to be a less than optimal idea in s2 and s3.

Though the matchmaking has its issues, I am not seeing any evidence of the matchmaker intentionally trying to force win/loss streaks on players to keep them at a 50% win rate.

Why are there still people who believe that matchmaking gives a fair chance to both team every match?

It’s kind of painfully obvious that one team is heavily favoured to win from the first min of the fight

Actually during peak hours with a decent population in the queue, though one team is still stacked, the difference in rating between the two teams is pretty small. Even with one team being stacked, you can still overcome the odds and win.

So unless you are only playing during low population times, then you can’t really blame the system for all of your losses. If you insist that the matches are being stacked much higher against you than what I’ve been seeing, maybe get the ratings from the players in one of your matches and posting the results here so I can add it to my data and study it.

Ithilwen.1529:

That’s what I meant by stacked. The mm appears to be once again encouraging streaks by setting up one side to win.

That seems fine and dandy if you’re on the winning end. Kitten, if the matchmaker favored me I’d be sitting in platinum.

I’m guessing you must be playing only during low population hours. I would love it if you could get the ratings from the players in one of your matches so we could see what kind of matches you are being set up with. Also, I just haven’t seen any evidence that matchmaker would favor/hate someone so much to push them across entire divisions. With my data so far it is just unreasonable for me to believe that the system just worked against you so much to push you down to bronze, or that even if the system did favor you that you would make it to platinum.

Ithilwen.1529:

That’s what I meant by stacked. The mm appears to be once again encouraging streaks by setting up one side to win.

That seems fine and dandy if you’re on the winning end. Kitten, if the matchmaker favored me I’d be sitting in platinum.

im really sorry but im actually folowing your treads every now and then, and u think anet is out to get u , every 1 goes thru the same thing, and if u are good enough u will win your games , i cant believe that a good player would be stuck in bronze cause he cant win games .
i solo que playing necro i got 1300 from start cause i lost 5 or 6 games out of the 10 and im now 1700+ easy nps .
dude just keep playing and u will be up theer if u are good enough to win games , just relax a bit man , no 1 is out to get u .

Prince Vingador.8067:

Ithilwen.1529:

That’s what I meant by stacked. The mm appears to be once again encouraging streaks by setting up one side to win.

That seems fine and dandy if you’re on the winning end. Kitten, if the matchmaker favored me I’d be sitting in platinum.

im really sorry but im actually folowing your treads every now and then, and u think anet is out to get u , every 1 goes thru the same thing, and if u are good enough u will win your games , i cant believe that a good player would be stuck in bronze cause he cant win games .
i solo que playing necro i got 1300 from start cause i lost 5 or 6 games out of the 10 and im not 1700+ easy nps .
dude just keep playing and u will be up theer if u are good enough to win games , just relax a bit man , no 1 is out to get u .

You only need to be unlucky enough to get that bad player who by chance share your same MMR/rating.,..but not the same brain..get this type of player more than once and you can see why people complain about this luck based system and it’s always been the same situation.

I played several times against you..and several times you were in my team then I read your comments…it doesn’t hold much weight I’m afraid

No! This system is not good enough to recognise personal skill level and therefore none of you here is in position to call others bad

Supreme.3164:

Prince Vingador.8067:

Ithilwen.1529:

That’s what I meant by stacked. The mm appears to be once again encouraging streaks by setting up one side to win.

That seems fine and dandy if you’re on the winning end. Kitten, if the matchmaker favored me I’d be sitting in platinum.

im really sorry but im actually folowing your treads every now and then, and u think anet is out to get u , every 1 goes thru the same thing, and if u are good enough u will win your games , i cant believe that a good player would be stuck in bronze cause he cant win games .
i solo que playing necro i got 1300 from start cause i lost 5 or 6 games out of the 10 and im not 1700+ easy nps .
dude just keep playing and u will be up theer if u are good enough to win games , just relax a bit man , no 1 is out to get u .

You only need to be unlucky enough to get that bad player who by chance share your same MMR/rating.,..but not the same brain..get this type of player more than once and you can see why people complain about this luck based system and it’s always been the same situation.

I played several times against you..and several times you were in my team then I read your comments…it doesn’t hold much weight I’m afraid

No! This system is not good enough to recognise personal skill level and therefore none of you here is in position to call others bad

The point of this thread isn’t to call anyone bad. This thread was put together to collect data on ranked matches so that myself and others could better understand how the matches are being organized. Throwing in conspiracy theories with no evidence at all other than personal opinion doesn’t really help this thread much.

Here’s my first two matches of the day. Both are at peak hours. 502-182 and 500-152.

Both were complete predestined walkovers. Something is seriously not working.

Admittedly, I generally play off peak hours.

Ithilwen.1529:

Here’s my first two matches of the day. Both are at peak hours. 502-182 and 500-152.

Both were complete predestined walkovers. Something is seriously not working.

Admittedly, I generally play off peak hours.

Score alone does not suggest a predestined win. I have had plenty of matches where teams were pretty even, but one team made fatal mistakes early on and we’re snowballed pretty hard.

Before the match starts, add everyone to your friend’s list and check their ratings, then post those numbers here so we can get an idea of the kind of matches you’re being placed in. I have a detailed guide for doing this up in my original post.

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

Yea but also most of the time people post of lopsided matches are in off peak hours when the abysmally low population is even more abysmally low. Plus you have to think how many matches 3% are of the whole population queuing for PvP matches, especially when the queue times are generally sub 3 minutes

Had a weird one. My team was all solo queue, low gold tier players. Other team had a duo, and all plat plus players. One ranked in the top 100 one in the top 200. Added my screen shots to the linked thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/6463472

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

Yea but also most of the time people post of lopsided matches are in off peak hours when the abysmally low population is even more abysmally low. Plus you have to think how many matches 3% are of the whole population queuing for PvP matches, especially when the queue times are generally sub 3 minutes

People playing during off hours shouldn’t suffer such bad matches though when it was actually possible to split the teams more evenly and create a better match. I get it if there was just no better way to split the teams, but this isn’t the case here.

Shaogin.2679:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

Yea but also most of the time people post of lopsided matches are in off peak hours when the abysmally low population is even more abysmally low. Plus you have to think how many matches 3% are of the whole population queuing for PvP matches, especially when the queue times are generally sub 3 minutes

People playing during off hours shouldn’t suffer such bad matches though when it was actually possible to split the teams more evenly and create a better match. I get it if there was just no better way to split the teams, but this isn’t the case here.

I had a match that was way off and it was not what i’d consider an off peak time. Around 3pm eastern time.

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

You do realize he’s one of the few people qualified to make that call, right? We’re seeing a lot of topics here, but those topics are part of the 3%, or the rare cases. Especially if you factor in the 100s, if not 1000s of players who’re playing ranked and the 10s of 100s of matches each one of them has done.

The point is, we now know the reason why it happens, and Evan is testing a fix.

Rashy.4165:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

You do realize he’s one of the few people qualified to make that call, right? We’re seeing a lot of topics here, but those topics are part of the 3%, or the rare cases. Especially if you factor in the 100s, if not 1000s of players who’re playing ranked and the 10s of 100s of matches each one of them has done.

The point is, we now know the reason why it happens, and Evan is testing a fix.

Evan’s post was in response to why that particular match had such a huge skill gap, it does not explain why teams are split the way they currently are. I am not disagreeing with Evan on his evaluation on how that particular match-up occurs, but it still doesn’t answer my particular questions with what I have been observing.

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

You do realize he’s one of the few people qualified to make that call, right? We’re seeing a lot of topics here, but those topics are part of the 3%, or the rare cases. Especially if you factor in the 100s, if not 1000s of players who’re playing ranked and the 10s of 100s of matches each one of them has done.

The point is, we now know the reason why it happens, and Evan is testing a fix.

Evan’s post was in response to why that particular match had such a huge skill gap, it does not explain why teams are split the way they currently are. I am not disagreeing with Evan on his evaluation on how that particular match-up occurs, but it still doesn’t answer my particular questions with what I have been observing.

It does partially explain it.

When the match was first formed, the numbers were even. Yes, 2 duo’s were placed in a single team, but if the match was truly even, that shouldn’t have mattered too much if the solo’s on the other team were good enough, and the solo on the stacked team was terrible. Two duos on a team isn’t a guarantee that they’ll win in a match where the odds are close to 50-50. It’s a high likelihood, but not a certainty.

However, since not everyone readied up, the system found substitutes to fill in the gaps, which just happened to be the non-duos. The system found substitutes who were worse than the original players. That happened enough times that it compounded the problem.

I’ll agree on one thing: the matchmaker SHOULD split up duos, regardless of what that does to difference in team MMR and expected outcome. Maybe it thought that the original matchup didn’t need to be split up for the most optimal match (lowest difference between team MMR). But since the matchmaker didn’t re-balance the teams after substitutes, the problem happened.

The only alternative is to have solo queue only, with a split queue (population likely won’t sustain it) for teams (of 2, 3, or 5) so that matches can be (2+3)v5 or 5v5 or (2+3)v(2+3). Again, the issue of finding substitutes can skew the match if that particular issue isn’t resolved.

IMO, splitting based on MMR/Skill rating is fine. Stacking a team with 2 duos is fine if the team MMRs are close, but logically, splitting the duos is a good idea too. Using other metrics like games played/won to split the team is not necessary.

Rashy.4165:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

You do realize he’s one of the few people qualified to make that call, right? We’re seeing a lot of topics here, but those topics are part of the 3%, or the rare cases. Especially if you factor in the 100s, if not 1000s of players who’re playing ranked and the 10s of 100s of matches each one of them has done.

The point is, we now know the reason why it happens, and Evan is testing a fix.

Evan’s post was in response to why that particular match had such a huge skill gap, it does not explain why teams are split the way they currently are. I am not disagreeing with Evan on his evaluation on how that particular match-up occurs, but it still doesn’t answer my particular questions with what I have been observing.

It does partially explain it.

When the match was first formed, the numbers were even. Yes, 2 duo’s were placed in a single team, but if the match was truly even, that shouldn’t have mattered too much if the solo’s on the other team were good enough, and the solo on the stacked team was terrible. Two duos on a team isn’t a guarantee that they’ll win in a match where the odds are close to 50-50. It’s a high likelihood, but not a certainty.

However, since not everyone readied up, the system found substitutes to fill in the gaps, which just happened to be the non-duos. The system found substitutes who were worse than the original players. That happened enough times that it compounded the problem.

I’ll agree on one thing: the matchmaker SHOULD split up duos, regardless of what that does to difference in team MMR and expected outcome. Maybe it thought that the original matchup didn’t need to be split up for the most optimal match (lowest difference between team MMR). But since the matchmaker didn’t re-balance the teams after substitutes, the problem happened.

The only alternative is to have solo queue only, with a split queue (population likely won’t sustain it) for teams (of 2, 3, or 5) so that matches can be (2+3)v5 or 5v5 or (2+3)v(2+3). Again, the issue of finding substitutes can skew the match if that particular issue isn’t resolved.

IMO, splitting based on MMR/Skill rating is fine. Stacking a team with 2 duos is fine if the team MMRs are close, but logically, splitting the duos is a good idea too. Using other metrics like games played/won to split the team is not necessary.

if team mmr are close, staking duos are not fine, they put 5 soloers with not experience on play with eachothers againts 2 pair of player experienced in play one with other and even with some third part coms to cordinate/ call for help, to get a 50/50 match posible the soloers had to be a bit better than duoers, if duo are two pugs not have coms or use it just to chitchat is their fault to waste that advantage that is suposed to have

Rashy.4165:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Shaogin.2679:

Rashy.4165:

Well, we now know why some of these stacked matches are occurring, as per Evan Lesh in an alternate topic. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-sucks-EVIDENCE/first#post6461405

Yeah I saw that, but according to him it is pretty rare.

You do realize he’s one of the few people qualified to make that call, right? We’re seeing a lot of topics here, but those topics are part of the 3%, or the rare cases. Especially if you factor in the 100s, if not 1000s of players who’re playing ranked and the 10s of 100s of matches each one of them has done.

The point is, we now know the reason why it happens, and Evan is testing a fix.

Evan’s post was in response to why that particular match had such a huge skill gap, it does not explain why teams are split the way they currently are. I am not disagreeing with Evan on his evaluation on how that particular match-up occurs, but it still doesn’t answer my particular questions with what I have been observing.

It does partially explain it.

I’m not sure if you’ve actually read through this thread and understood what is being discussed here. My issue isn’t so much with a skill gap between teams (since as I’ve stated multiple times the gap is small and can be overcome during peak hours) but more so how players are being split into two teams and the effect it has on matches when player population is lower.

The player Evan responded to was showing a large skill gap and a stacked team much like the results I see when queueing during off hours, but that case in particular was an extreme example. Evan’s explanation for how those extreme results can occur in a rare percentage of games doesn’t adequately explain the reasoning behind the consistent results I’m seeing with how teams are split.

You see, I don’t doubt at all what Evan is saying about the reasoning behind the match-up, nor do I doubt him when he says such a match-up rarely happens. It was after all a pretty large skill gap. But you can’t honestly expect me to believe that this situation that rarely happens is the reason myself and others see a constant pattern in how players are being split into these teams. That would be a pretty large coincidence to say that every time I am able to check the ratings of the players in my matches, this rare situation is occurring.

Something very odd is going on with the matchmaking…

From my last 20 matches
13 blow out matches, (<200 v 500)- last match was 22v500 [in plat].
7 which could have been seen as gone either way (>350 vs 500).

One great thing would be if players had access to MMR before / after a match and players in that match via the API. We could then see what the hell is going on a lot easier. There has got to be a reason so many one sided. BLow out matches are occurring ATM.

Evan Lesh.3295:

FWIW, I’m looking into other possible stacking issues after dissecting the crap out of the substitutions problem.

Sweet. Glad to have you guys back from the holidays! Looking forward to the results. =)

TPMN.1483:

One great thing would be if players had access to MMR before / after a match and players in that match via the API. We could then see what the hell is going on a lot easier. There has got to be a reason so many one sided. BLow out matches are occurring ATM.

Do you think players would feel any incentive to try if they knew they were destined to lose pre-match through a shown rating system?

Maybe showing the before / after ratings, team average MMR and win/loss prediction from the system after the match would help some people feel better about how the system works, but telling people they’re in a game that they should lose doesn’t seem like it would work with this community.

I’m not saying everyone would AFK, but I know I’d feel super frustrated running out of the gate into a kittenshow mismatch.

look at your point differential. I lost 4 pts. one match. My team was full solo queue and low tier gold. The other team had a team and had two players in the top 200, and no one lower than platinum. If you are losing to people at your level the points lost will be a lot higher.

Kreweless.2196:

TPMN.1483:

One great thing would be if players had access to MMR before / after a match and players in that match via the API. We could then see what the hell is going on a lot easier. There has got to be a reason so many one sided. BLow out matches are occurring ATM.

Do you think players would feel any incentive to try if they knew they were destined to lose pre-match through a shown rating system?

Maybe showing the before / after ratings, team average MMR and win/loss prediction from the system after the match would help some people feel better about how the system works, but telling people they’re in a game that they should lose doesn’t seem like it would work with this community.

I’m not saying everyone would AFK, but I know I’d feel super frustrated running out of the gate into a kittenshow mismatch.

Yeah, would definitely love to see player’s ratings and gain/loss displayed on the scoreboard, but for sure only after the match. If they displayed that information before the match there would definitely be a lot more negative attitudes and afk during the match.

Why doesn’t Anet realize this whole match making is broken af. Bronze and Silver is a nightmare for above-average players. They match you up with players below your skill rating and they expect you to carry your team because you get punished and lose a LOT of points if you can’t. It’s impossible to get out of this pit called Silver because the broken match making system looking at your league points rather than your MMR, so I keep getting matched with players way below my level, which results in losses, which results in me getting matched with even worse players, and yeah you get the idea…

Nicknero.2479:

Why doesn’t Anet realize this whole match making is broken af. Bronze and Silver is a nightmare for above-average players. They match you up with players below your skill rating and they expect you to carry your team because you get punished and lose a LOT of points if you can’t. It’s impossible to get out of this pit called Silver because the broken match making system looking at your league points rather than your MMR, so I keep getting matched with players way below my level, which results in losses, which results in me getting matched with even worse players, and yeah you get the idea…

I climbed out of silver into gold, so have many others. Maybe look up the ratings of the players in your match before the match starts to see if what you claim is really happening then post the results here?

^ This.

I got two loss streaks on my thief that got me from gold to silver in a pretty depressing way. The fastest way to recover for me was to go chrono greatsword + gravity well and no portal play. Just burst during a x2 gravity well ( 6 sec CC ) in team fight. That’s the best brute forcing way out of silver.