Guild Wars 2

They don’t even need to queue at strange hours. The way the system is designed, you’ll keep getting points as long as you perform by the expectations of the matchmaking system.
If you’re at 90%+ MMR wise and keep an average of around a 50% win rate (which means your MMR is right, so it won’t move a lot), you’ll still get points in the long run thanks to those close matches you lose that don’t bring any penalty to your leaderboard score.

The system clearly benefits top MMR players queueing with a full premade because their win rate will be huge and will need a lot less total games to achieve the same score than any random soloqueuer, but even with that it’s extremely easy to see how strong the correlation between points and games played is just by a quick look at the leaderboards.

^ Well, not rly. Top MMR players will have odds of winning at 99% all the time. Thus they’ll only be able to gain 1 LB point for each win. While other players, especially those in the sweet spot of MMR, will often get +1, +2 and sometimes +3 LB points.

This simply is not correct. I played 29 games. Won 14 and lost 15. I played solo and I have 15 points on the leaderboards. I lost some games like 1xx:500 and some 2xx:500. In both cases I should get -1. Maybe I had 1 or 2 games where I won against a group with just solos. So I maybe got +2 twice. But I have 15 points. I misclicked once at cancel while the pop-up showed up, so this is also a loss I guess.

Question to Justin:
You talked about hard filters before. They seem like the ultimate (as you said nuclear) option but i wonder if the solution to the problem couldn’t be a optional nuclear solution. A solution that might partially satisfy people wanting better matchups as well those who don’t want to want. since i don’t know how matchmaking is implemented into the system so this might not be an option but wouldn’t it be possible to fork the matchmaking algorithm? standard set to hard filter as in exclude other team formats (premade, solo/duo) but with a check box to lift that filter in order to shorten que times.

butch.8136:

^ Well, not rly. Top MMR players will have odds of winning at 99% all the time. Thus they’ll only be able to gain 1 LB point for each win. While other players, especially those in the sweet spot of MMR, will often get +1, +2 and sometimes +3 LB points.

That MMR sweetspot can’t exist in the long run.
It might exist for a while for some people with their MMR tanked for whatever reason, but if you’re consistently winning matches you were expected to lose, it’s just a matter of time for your MMR to grow and your predicted odds of winning to suffer a complete shift.

Justin ODell.9517:

CptCuddles.8912:

It’s not just the communication that helps pre-mades. You need to also realize that it is a group of players selected because they are at least somewhat skills versus a pub of players at variable skill levels. Pre-mades are also more willing to cooperate whereas pub groups tend to resort to complaining and insisting that each individual player is in fact the most skilled and has the best plan.

I agree, I’d like to see what more we can do to encourage pubs to cooperate more. On my wish list is a team finder that analyzes all your games and suggests other pub players to potentially team with based on your past history with them.

Another idea is letting you keep your pub team through the next queue if you won.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Bring back SoloQ. It is really that simple Justin. My science colleagues call it Occam’s Razor.

Then you could devote time to putting in build layouts, new game modes, balancing and other important things rather than spending 90% of your resources fiddling with the matchmaking system.

Vargamonth.2047:

butch.8136:

^ Well, not rly. Top MMR players will have odds of winning at 99% all the time. Thus they’ll only be able to gain 1 LB point for each win. While other players, especially those in the sweet spot of MMR, will often get +1, +2 and sometimes +3 LB points.

That MMR sweetspot can’t exist in the long run.
It might exist for a while for some people with their MMR tanked for whatever reason, but if you’re consistently winning matches you were expected to lose, it’s just a matter of time for your MMR to grow and your predicted odds of winning to suffer a complete shift.

That’s true, but last leaderboards we’ve seen that MMR is very volatile. It might take 1 loss to be back at it. :p
But you’re right, in the end it should even out.

Justin, I really appreciate your work on this new pvp stuff and your activity in pvp forums as well… But this is not enjoying anymore, it´s just frustrating: It really seems like you want people to join a team and punish solo players. I don’t know what’s wrong with this mmr, but I lost like 15 matches while winnig 3 or 4. I´m qued with people who cap home point with 2 players, while the third one being killed by svanir. Guards running far and die there, over and over again. Don´t know what changed since last patch, because I was qued with/against Collero, Rom or Hiba before and I had like 60-55% win rate (Now I do have ~40 %). On another post you were speaking about: “Your team was meant or expected to lose…” I don´t want matches which prefer one team in such a way… Even class stacking doesn´t work consequently: While my team was Ranger, Ranger, Ranger, Thief, Thief the enemy team was balanced. You may have a look at my data and tell me what´s going on?
As I said I really like that you are working to improve pvp, but why didn’t you “just” implement map selection, leaderboard parameters and (anti)class stacking in old soloq system? People just didn’t enjoy Skyhammer and Spirit Watch and the way leaderboard worked. Or maybe use hard filters? Please fix this, I don´t enjoy pvp anymore the way it is now.

1 win-10 losses every day, term “Pvp daily frustrated”.

Today’s matchmaking has been awful. I’ve had multiple 4v5s / afks and I’ve been paired with people who clearly cannot play at all. Examples include getting triple capped while my team was 2v4 defending lord. I don’t actually understand why today has been so bad but it feels unbearable.

MatthiasL.5346:

On another post you were speaking about: “Your team was meant or expected to lose…” I don´t want matches which prefer one team in such a way…

that post almost made me quit the game right there. i do no longer care much about the spvp side of this game now. i dont like playing a game that intentionally makes games that I am supposed to lose. its bullkittensquat all the way, and a game designer that thinks like that should be tossed out on their kitten behind.

and ya, the class stacking and point farmers are making it really really hard to enjoy pvp. i watched a guy the other day on FoN hide by the mine and just constantly decap/recap. never engaged in any fights, and when teammates were by the mine he wouldnt even come out to help. i run into these point farmers way too much.

Benjamin.8237:

Today’s matchmaking has been awful. I’ve had multiple 4v5s / afks and I’ve been paired with people who clearly cannot play at all. Examples include getting triple capped while my team was 2v4 defending lord. I don’t actually understand why today has been so bad but it feels unbearable.

Same happened to me earlier. Lost 12 unranked games in a row.

A lot of decent players getting matched with complete beginners again today. There is absolutely NO FUN in queuing solo anymore. You either have a team or you simply don’t play pvp.

21:45 CEST Foefire… tell me how the matchmaking led to that game, and then adjust the matchmaking, that those kind of game does never happen again!

Not sure if this will get attention to the devs… maybe I need to post on every available forum to get some attention to this problem.

I still don’t get and I never will.

How can I have 10 games with decent enough teammates and then suddenly I get two Q pops where people double cap points, stomp people off points and just have no idea how the map works…

Today I log in and I get a beserker staff ele, a condi ele and a condi thief. Which to me sounds like a start of a bad joke. And the next game, I get the beserker staff ele again!

I sincerely doubt that this person, however brilliant they may be, are in my mmr.
It makes no sense for me

And a LoL ranked system like bronze, silver & gold.

Lol. lost 15 games in a row..so please tell me how this matchmaking is working

As long as I continue to get people on my team who don’t even look at the minimap to see whether someone on our team is already capping a point before going to it, matchmaking will continue to be broken in my book.

butch.8136:

While other players, especially those in the sweet spot of MMR, will often get +1, +2 and sometimes +3 LB points.

it is impossible for weaker teams to win the game and get 2 or 3 ladder points.

the best the can do is lose with 400+ points and earn 1 ladder point.

the match prediction is quite accurate.

Hate to say it ,But until anet gives back soloq the community should try to play on teams, organize a ts, a website, a guild, try something other than just posting on a forum. Organize as a community.

stop putting solo vs any group size.. never worked in any other mmo why would it work here.

there are serious problems with matchmaking in the early hours of the morning. im talking a bunch of newbs and ragequitters against stacked, experienced premades. the matchmaker just doesn’t have a large enough pool to draw from. unfortunately, the solution for me will be to not play at this hour because matches are just ridiculous. personally, I feel these opponents aren’t anything special, but they cause extreme confusion and frustration to the newbs on my team resulting in ragequits.

Bring back solo queue. Make rewards be 1500 win / 500 loss for both solo queue and team queue. That way both sides will be satisfied and nobody from solo queue would go in team queue and ruin it. All would be happy and rewarded equally.

That should’ve been done in the first place.
Making rewards equal for both would’ve been faster and easier change than what was actually done.

MetalGirl.2370:

Bring back solo queue. Make rewards be 1500 win / 500 loss for both solo queue and team queue. That way both sides will be satisfied and nobody from solo queue would go in team queue and ruin it. All would be happy and rewarded equally.

That should’ve been done in the first place.
Making rewards equal for both would’ve been faster and easier change than what was actually done.

There would be almost no incentive to do teamq. Last teamq had a bit of a population because people soloq’d it for its increased rewards.
A normal teamq wouldn’t allow people to solo it. Thus it would only have 2, 3 and 5-mans. It would need increased rewards to be somewhat attractive. And even then, I wonder how many full blown teams queued up at any point in time in the last iteration.

Justin ODell.9517:

We’ve got something coming down the pipe that should improve these sort of scenarios. Details soon.

It’s called the return of the solo queue … hopefully.

see attachment. everyone was solo. happened about 20-30min ago

Guys, i am fed up of this matchmaking, i tag solo or with 1 or 2 friends, most of time.
Before patch we were top 250.

Now, can’t do 2 wins in a row, cause of noob with us and pgm in other team, m y friend just take a screen .

were are in top 87% now, see our ennemy team

Plz anet explain me that ? it s like this all the day !!! Queue was about 4mins !

plz do something…

PLZ ANET show MMR info next to character names !!! it’s just not possible to continue like this !

Lopez.7369:

So I was on vacation for the past week. Matchmaking now seems fine outside of the odd full team against a bunch of solo queue players, which shouldn’t happen but at least seems not very common now.

But this ladder… I honestly don’t even know where to start. How is it possible that this ladder is actually a downgrade compared to the last version? It’s so, so bad.

would have to disagree completely.

3 matches in a row here, with no name puggers, vs top fifty leaderboard premade or partial premade. Landslide losses for me, no fun. It seems worse than ever actually.

Justin ODell.9517:

CptCuddles.8912:

It’s not just the communication that helps pre-mades. You need to also realize that it is a group of players selected because they are at least somewhat skills versus a pub of players at variable skill levels. Pre-mades are also more willing to cooperate whereas pub groups tend to resort to complaining and insisting that each individual player is in fact the most skilled and has the best plan.

I agree, I’d like to see what more we can do to encourage pubs to cooperate more. On my wish list is a team finder that analyzes all your games and suggests other pub players to potentially team with based on your past history with them.

Another idea is letting you keep your pub team through the next queue if you won.

Anyone else have any ideas?

+1
Sounds really cool actually, both of your ideas!

i think the balance matchmaking is really a problem now, many matches in 5 vs 5 usually are bad match like in hot-join, one team overwhelm the other team?though the team composition is more important than titles in each team, but i have seen in so many plays, members of one team have many pvp-related titles, but the others are not, now i am very doubtful about the balance mechanism.

Honestly I think a fix to the matchmaking system would be a filter to pick your ideal team composition. Pre-made team will always have an advantage to solo teams but thats mainly because of communication which 5 good solo players with knowledge of the game can easily jump that hurdle what really effects people is being in a pug team vs a pre-made and your pug team is 3 rangers 1 mesmer and a guardian… Lol that right there is a very high hurdle to jump.

there are like 3 teams playing right now, and it just so happens that I am getting paired with them every match (being a soloquer) in a pug. There is definitely a way to game the system to avoid fighting other teams and just doing pug stomps. Should bring back soloq and teamq

Since we should report praticular bad matchs, so Justin can have a look at the details and improve the matchmaking, here are two screenshots of really bad balanced matches.

In both games my team really tried hard so archieve anythiny, but wasn’t able to do so. After all was lost, we tried to zerg the enemy team down and not even that worked. They were obviously wayyyyyy above our league.

I know some players are better than others and I’m far from beeing a very good player, but befere the update, I had pretty good matches and at least had a chance. This is just an example and this has happened pretty often since the last update.

All this happened about 20 minutes ago. I’d be great if you could have a look at these matchups to fix the issue that is causing this.

Edit:
After playing two other matches that were, one decently balanced, I experienced the same thing as before, just on the otehr side. I mean the enemy team was basically cannon fodder, just like I was before.

It wasn’t as bad as before, but like I already mentioned, since the upadte, I have more unbalanced games then ever before.

Idea to improve this:
- Pretty good spread classes – why not put one of each class into every team where every team gets the “better” player of each class and therefore the “worse” of the next class?
- Introduce solo queue, or don’t put solo qued splayers together with predifened groups or even guilds. Most of these games are really, really unbalanced as well. (Happened not that often, but therefore pretty frustrating.)
PS: Since I know posting player names is probematic, I wiped them out, but it was different players each time.

Justin ODell.9517:

style.6173:

That is not good at all. I used to be annoyed seeing people with win rates below 50% in the top 100. Now we see them throughout the board. This really needs a total revamp

This is a beta ladder, so please take it with a grain of salt. You’re only seeing one part of our plans, and while we do appreciate feedback do please keep that in mind.

style.6173:

You miss the point of why people didn’t like solo queue.

No, I don’t think I missed the point. This is why I clarified, I wasn’t trying to say players hated solo arena (outside what you mentioned). Again, the reasons I mentioned, which at best, are only summary of the team’s reasons. The two big ones (in my mind) were that 1) people wanted a place to play casually with friends, but in a more structured environment than hotjoin. 2) Players had valid criticism of the solo ladder, which would be true for nearly any ladder that is solo in nature because Gw2 PvP is a team game. This is why we shifted away from solo/team to unranked/ranked.

style.6173:

An unranked arena WAS a good idea. I personally enjoy playing there as long as I don’t get spirit watch, skyhammer, or courtyard (alt-f4 is a good way to avoid those). I’m actually ok with the solo queue and team queue being merged as long as 85 percent of my matches are 5 pugs vs 5 pugs. I am NOT ok with it if 50% of the time I am playing people who have queued together.

I’m glad you feel it was a good choice. I’m sorry you’re getting maps you don’t like, but I am happy that people that enjoy those maps still get to play them, all be it rarely. That is not cool that you’re ditching your team just because you didn’t get the map you wanted.

I can look up your account if you want, though most the time people end up surprised the data doesn’t match their perceptions. I really think we should start showing more data to help with this, but I understand the reasons we don’t.

Looking up my account wouldn’t really help, since I use a variety of them depending on what I want to do in-game.

As for leaving matches, I don’t leave matches mid-way. I will however leave a match before it starts if I get a horrible map. Remember the key here. It is about having fun. Those maps are not fun. I think the feelings of skyhammer have been pretty well established on the forums.

i get stuck with pugs way below my level of play all the time, sometimes to the point where it feels like they just got the game.

best way to handle it is just to go afk the rest of the game after you score at least once so that the game goes faster, meaning bad pugs end up wasting less of your time. fun way to punish bad players for queuing.

sinject.4607:

i get stuck with pugs way below my level of play all the time, sometimes to the point where it feels like they just got the game.

best way to handle it is just to go afk the rest of the game after you score at least once so that the game goes faster, meaning bad pugs end up wasting less of your time. fun way to punish bad players for queuing.

That makes no sense. You have a “feeling” that the people are new so you don’t play when your losing…. IDK sounds like you get outplayed don’t communicate well with your team and rage AFK….

sinject.4607:

i get stuck with pugs way below my level of play all the time, sometimes to the point where it feels like they just got the game.

best way to handle it is just to go afk the rest of the game after you score at least once so that the game goes faster, meaning bad pugs end up wasting less of your time. fun way to punish bad players for queuing.

I’ve seen you around. You BM and get irritated too much. You also play a thief that doesn’t really carry teams or support teams in fights.

sinject.4607:

i get stuck with pugs way below my level of play all the time, sometimes to the point where it feels like they just got the game.

best way to handle it is just to go afk the rest of the game after you score at least once so that the game goes faster, meaning bad pugs end up wasting less of your time. fun way to punish bad players for queuing.

better play and you shouldnt be playing with pugs…or if you are so 1337, why even do unranked?

style.6173:

Justin ODell.9517:

style.6173:

That is not good at all. I used to be annoyed seeing people with win rates below 50% in the top 100. Now we see them throughout the board. This really needs a total revamp

This is a beta ladder, so please take it with a grain of salt. You’re only seeing one part of our plans, and while we do appreciate feedback do please keep that in mind.

style.6173:

You miss the point of why people didn’t like solo queue.

No, I don’t think I missed the point. This is why I clarified, I wasn’t trying to say players hated solo arena (outside what you mentioned). Again, the reasons I mentioned, which at best, are only summary of the team’s reasons. The two big ones (in my mind) were that 1) people wanted a place to play casually with friends, but in a more structured environment than hotjoin. 2) Players had valid criticism of the solo ladder, which would be true for nearly any ladder that is solo in nature because Gw2 PvP is a team game. This is why we shifted away from solo/team to unranked/ranked.

style.6173:

An unranked arena WAS a good idea. I personally enjoy playing there as long as I don’t get spirit watch, skyhammer, or courtyard (alt-f4 is a good way to avoid those). I’m actually ok with the solo queue and team queue being merged as long as 85 percent of my matches are 5 pugs vs 5 pugs. I am NOT ok with it if 50% of the time I am playing people who have queued together.

I’m glad you feel it was a good choice. I’m sorry you’re getting maps you don’t like, but I am happy that people that enjoy those maps still get to play them, all be it rarely. That is not cool that you’re ditching your team just because you didn’t get the map you wanted.

I can look up your account if you want, though most the time people end up surprised the data doesn’t match their perceptions. I really think we should start showing more data to help with this, but I understand the reasons we don’t.

Looking up my account wouldn’t really help, since I use a variety of them depending on what I want to do in-game.

As for leaving matches, I don’t leave matches mid-way. I will however leave a match before it starts if I get a horrible map. Remember the key here. It is about having fun. Those maps are not fun. I think the feelings of skyhammer have been pretty well established on the forums.

That is so unbelievably selfish that it basically amounts to trolling and you should have your account suspended.

The whole point of the map selection is that it is fair. If 1/10th the people want to skyhammer they get to play it 1/10th the time it is available.

Everyone have different opinions. How would you like it if people hated legacy and just left everytime that map came up.

Rickster.8752:

style.6173:

Justin ODell.9517:

style.6173:

That is not good at all. I used to be annoyed seeing people with win rates below 50% in the top 100. Now we see them throughout the board. This really needs a total revamp

This is a beta ladder, so please take it with a grain of salt. You’re only seeing one part of our plans, and while we do appreciate feedback do please keep that in mind.

style.6173:

You miss the point of why people didn’t like solo queue.

No, I don’t think I missed the point. This is why I clarified, I wasn’t trying to say players hated solo arena (outside what you mentioned). Again, the reasons I mentioned, which at best, are only summary of the team’s reasons. The two big ones (in my mind) were that 1) people wanted a place to play casually with friends, but in a more structured environment than hotjoin. 2) Players had valid criticism of the solo ladder, which would be true for nearly any ladder that is solo in nature because Gw2 PvP is a team game. This is why we shifted away from solo/team to unranked/ranked.

style.6173:

An unranked arena WAS a good idea. I personally enjoy playing there as long as I don’t get spirit watch, skyhammer, or courtyard (alt-f4 is a good way to avoid those). I’m actually ok with the solo queue and team queue being merged as long as 85 percent of my matches are 5 pugs vs 5 pugs. I am NOT ok with it if 50% of the time I am playing people who have queued together.

I’m glad you feel it was a good choice. I’m sorry you’re getting maps you don’t like, but I am happy that people that enjoy those maps still get to play them, all be it rarely. That is not cool that you’re ditching your team just because you didn’t get the map you wanted.

I can look up your account if you want, though most the time people end up surprised the data doesn’t match their perceptions. I really think we should start showing more data to help with this, but I understand the reasons we don’t.

Looking up my account wouldn’t really help, since I use a variety of them depending on what I want to do in-game.

As for leaving matches, I don’t leave matches mid-way. I will however leave a match before it starts if I get a horrible map. Remember the key here. It is about having fun. Those maps are not fun. I think the feelings of skyhammer have been pretty well established on the forums.

That is so unbelievably selfish that it basically amounts to trolling and you should have your account suspended.

The whole point of the map selection is that it is fair. If 1/10th the people want to skyhammer they get to play it 1/10th the time it is available.

Everyone have different opinions. How would you like it if people hated legacy and just left everytime that map came up.

As long as there is one location without those maps, I am happy. Right now they aren’t in ranked queue. Good. The fact is that MORE people should leave. Apparently that is the only way that ANET would take notice.

Oh, just saw another 500-0 game. When can we admit the new matchmaking system is a fail?

Justin

30th December 2014 – 3:35am-3:46am GMT
30th December 2014 – 5:18am-5:25am GMT – No chance MM is working in this.

Can you check the Ranked Arena matches I had at these times? It was the dodgiest matchmaking I have ever had.

Thanks

I seem to get really bad match making after a big win. As if it tries to make you carry a bad team after you do well in the previous match.

the worst fail of this matchmaker by far is the prof distribution. yesterday I actually rolled a 3 ranger + 2 thief group vs a balanced comp of guard/war/ele/engie (non-premade). I was the third ranger and had to switch to my guard, but we still got decimated. similar thing happened to me today with 2 necros and 2 rangers. pure rallybait, got mowed down.

this combined with random noobs in the top 300 who are completely clueless about conquest and their specs basically make me not give a kitten about the leaderboard.

mistsim.2748:

the worst fail of this matchmaker by far is the prof distribution. yesterday I actually rolled a 3 ranger + 2 thief group vs a balanced comp of guard/war/ele/engie (non-premade). I was the third ranger and had to switch to my guard, but we still got decimated. similar thing happened to me today with 2 necros and 2 rangers. pure rallybait, got mowed down.

Aw man, I’m pretty sure I was the engi on the other team during that match yesterday. I noticed one of the three rangers on the other team switch to guard. Felt really bad about that…

The worst match I had yesterday was against a triple-necro team in Courtyard. My whole team melted instantly each time we respawned. (we were all necro-allergic classes…or I guess we were just that terrible? I think we got maybe one kill between us all.) (P.S. yeah, I know unranked courtyard is worthless—team composition determines the entire match right from the start.)

Matchmaking during “prime time” is actually worse than outside of it. Getting matched with beginners who obviously have no idea, dying to svanir/chieftain in a 1vs1, double capping points against premades and groups that have way more experienced players. Today its the same again. 3 games so far and not even one was close.

nuff said. do you really think this is fun??? vgj with the patch anet… everything is fine with the matchmaking. (btw this was premade vs. 5 soloers if you didnt notice… =/). 5 minutes ago

and the second match. another premade, more bunker more fun ^^
(btw. i lost points on the lb for these matches…just wow xDD)

Anet prefer answer on the topic about what people want to see in gemstore instead of give answer and facts here….