Guild Wars 2

It’s ridiculous what this class can do. Harder to kill than a kittening necro, port is insane utility, double moa shuts down anything, does not lose any 1v1s. Not to mention a baller teamfighter too because of ridic moa.

I have to admit. After those massive nerfs, i am surprised how the class still remains so viable.

With that said, no, no nerfs. We should wait.

Inb4 haters jump at your throat, know this ….your claim is indeed legit.
Ofc haters will run to this thread with all kind of hate speech and L2P comments but ..it can’t be helped.

And yes I came across this double Moa chrono condi/shatter , seen even some shield bunker version, dunno what amulet is used with the shield version but they deal low dmg and are just extremely hard to kill, normally their role is to decap a point and hold as many people as possible.

I’m not here to justify nerfs or buffs…just stating that your experience is very much real at diamond division so this is not something you only see in hotjoin( as ofc few players will say this to discredit your thread)

Supreme.3164:

Inb4 haters jump at your throat, know this ….your claim is indeed legit.
Ofc haters will run to this thread with all kind of hate speech and L2P comments but ..it can’t be helped.

And yes I came across this double Moa chrono condi/shatter , seen even some shield bunker version, dunno what amulet is used with the shield version but they deal low dmg and are just extremely hard to kill, normally their role is to decap a point and hold as many people as possible.

I’m not here to justify nerfs or buffs…just stating that your experience is very much real at diamond division so this is not something you only see in hotjoin( as ofc few players will say this to discredit your thread)

I should mention i’ve been hovering in diamond t4-t6 for about a week now.

Moa needs adjustment. Either make stability counter it or make the transform increase vit a lot so that it’s a disable instead of free kill (unless the target is low health).

moa is fine, been since always.

moa can be blocked by aegis, can be evaded.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

moa is fine, been since always.

moa can be blocked by aegis, can be evaded.

just because it has counterplay doesn’t mean it isn’t broken as kitten. are you going to be able to see a mesmer try to moa your kitten in the middle of a teamfight?

Alphabet.7392:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

moa is fine, been since always.

moa can be blocked by aegis, can be evaded.

just because it has counterplay doesn’t mean it isn’t broken as kitten. are you going to be able to see a mesmer try to moa your kitten in the middle of a teamfight?

nope.
thats a good moa !

Take druid or tempest to fight it, they will battle like for ever and none will win.

Not a nerf but a rebalancing so instead of leaving moa on for 10 seconds reduce both the duration and cooldown in half.

In the picture you’ll see the evade prompt and dodged at what’d typically be the right time but I still somehow got moa’d anyway.

The only thing, really the only thing Id slightly nerf at current game state, is the double moa.

I wouldnt reduce the time for single moa at all, but rather give it a debuff to last only 5 seconds when used with continuum rift. Make that skill a bit more situational. You either get a long moa, or two moas. What fits better in the current situation, shutting down one for a long time, or shutting down two for a shorter time?

And such a mechanic would open all skills up to being split between continuum rift active, or not. It would add a whole new dimension to chronomancer spec.

You could even call it “negative rift energy effect” ;p

Just think about it… using gravity well with continuum rift -> only daze but bigger radius… using it without -> long pull but smaller radius.
Or not changing radius and cc, but rather casttime.

The possibilities are endless.

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

I can counterplay a lot, doesnt mean it isnt at least slightly broken.

Take SnR. You can counter it, yes, but it definitely has not a long enough cooldown for what that skill can do.

Or take scepter AA on necro. It isnt as op as some people like to believe, and only humping scepter AA wont give you a win as a necro. But when used against pulsing stability, it is very powerful. Sure you can counter it, run out of range of necro scepter… focus necro with team… but that doesnt mean that the mix of pulsing stability and boon corruption on AA is very powerful and can decide a fight alone.

i would nerf only moa to 6s duration, but i guess thats a l2p, i should avoid that moa out of stealth Kappa

Moa should be reduced to AT LEAST 5 seconds in pvp. That way they can only double moa 2 targets for a full 10 second duration. Enough with the elite iwin buttons.

Ironically, Necros are harder to kill when they’ve been moa’d if they know what they’re doing.

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

I have been seeing a LOT more condi-spam chronophantasma mesmers. The rate at which they pump out condis is kinda insane (so much torment and confusion, and they stack them all again quickly after cleanses). They also can just rotate defensive skills (blocks, evades, invulns) making it incredibly easy to play. I think the spec is really under-rated and easy to play, and you might even see it in pro-league. You will probably see it more and more in ranked as time goes on.

Also, the only real counter is reaper in 1v1’s, which might not even see pro play b/c of how easy it is to focus and not all that quick around the map (eles can stall them for a very long time if they rotate cleanses perfectly with cleansing water and DS). Mes, on the other hand, is incredibly strong thanks to portal, with the added bonus of 2x gravity well or moa.

I don’t think they need a massive nerf, but they do need some adjustments. I even think they do ok in teamfights because the condis they pump out are aoe, and it can get overwhelming when added ontop of a reaper.

I called it

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/What-with-those-Condi-Mesmer/first#post5984584

mesmer mains are even worse than scrapper/rev mains, at least the latter ones are not constantly begging for buffs for their class under the excuse of it being weak

I’m waiting for an Ithliwen post to make this thread more interesting

The double elite is strong, especially on Moa, but it’s also easily blocked by invulns, blocks, aegis, dodge, evade and so on…

Personally I enjoy double time warp on mid fight at start, especially on small nodes, that 20s AoE slow/quickness has proven to be extremely useful. (I’m also a scrub who enjoys bringing supportive skills on any class)

Its not just moar . Its also insant 12-15 stack of confusion plus torment and other stuff.

Helseth illustrates the OP ness nicely in his twiths streams

MAN.9046:

I’m waiting for an Ithliwen post to make this thread more interesting

Hansen.3264:

Its not just moar . Its also insant 12-15 stack of confusion plus torment and other stuff.

Helseth illustrates the OP ness nicely in his twiths streams

That’s because helseth. His build won’t be playable in most ranked plays by regular players. I would say even himself can’t play that in real tournament when he faces players of equal skill.

His build is harder to play than all other meta builds combined. Complaining that build being OP is ridiculous and shows how little ppl understand mesmer.

The current meta mesmer condie build at its best can compete for the fifth spot on a team in tournament because of the new no-stacking rule.

It is plain ridiculous to complain about mesmer rather than the other four vastly superior meta builds.

Before your complain about the condie pressure, count how many times you waste your dodge on clone attack. It is so funny to see so many players random dodge just because you pumped out 2 clones.

Before your complain about being moa’ed in a 1v1, did you know most moas are casted with F5 out which also has clear visual tell. The meta condie mesmer build doesn’t even bring stealth with it. I don’t know what is so hard about dodging/blocking/evading a 1sec cast skill.

Like U wrote in topick, it will be massive nerf for “mesmers”,
Chrono will still use moa even with reduced duration, but for core mes this skill will be dead.

But who will care, I mean like nobody play core spec anymore…

melcor.1094:

Double moa sure is strong and i would be fine with nerf double moa if the survivability of some classes will be reduced marked at the same time.

I mostly agree with you BUT! If someone does double moa they pretty much remain without an elite for the remainder of the game. The 180 second cooldown is massive. Sure some games average at 8-12 minutes of play but you don’t have moa in the teamfights after that so that ele you casted double moa on … will respawn in 15 seconds. Wait … double moa actually doesn’t mean a safestomp So you would have wasted 2 moas just to see the said ele being pulled by a druid or through a portal in mist form.

Afterwards you have nothing to disbalance the fight in your favor. Sure you can condi spam here and there. But we all know how well that works versus tempests these days.

Ravenmoon.5318:

melcor.1094:

Double moa sure is strong and i would be fine with nerf double moa if the survivability of some classes will be reduced marked at the same time.

I mostly agree with you BUT! If someone does double moa they pretty much remain without an elite for the remainder of the game. The 180 second cooldown is massive. Sure some games average at 8-12 minutes of play but you don’t have moa in the teamfights after that so that ele you casted double moa on … will respawn in 15 seconds. Wait … double moa actually doesn’t mean a safestomp So you would have wasted 2 moas just to see the said ele being pulled by a druid or through a portal in mist form.

Afterwards you have nothing to disbalance the fight in your favor. Sure you can condi spam here and there. But we all know how well that works versus tempests these days.

Good mesmer try to use moa together with f5 so they have about 90s cd, and double moa only when it can save a fight completly. I sure wouldn`t cry for a double moa nerf by myself in current meta, i just wanted to point out that there are other things to nerf first or at least in the same time with moa.

I cant see a good inspiration condi mesmer losing any 1v1s aside from good necro atm or stalling at least… its shatter after shatter after shatter signet repeat f5 moa etc.. it need some toning but this is not the thing that needs balancing the most like cought scrapper * druid * necro *

will u make thief and warrior viable at least to some degree …

Mesmer has already experienced a massive series of nerfs. The shield (multiple times ), wells, alacrity,blurred frenzy ( multiple times ), confusion and yes, even moa. That’s not a complete list.

If anything, Mesmer is currently underpowered, ( as it has been for a majority of the game’s life.)

Yes there is one condi build that is competitive. That build has very little defense against conditions. Necro in particular should have no difficulty against it.

The reality is that there is a lack of skill and understanding on the part of some of the other players.

Mesmers dont need anymore nerfs LOL.
They can be solo’d just like any other class… the most annoying thing they can do is portal and moa. especially moa’d and then focused.
I never worry about mesmers atm.

MAN.9046:

I’m waiting for an Ithliwen post to make this thread more interesting

Ithilwen.1529:

Mesmer has already experienced a massive series of nerfs. The shield (multiple times ), wells, alacrity,blurred frenzy ( multiple times ), confusion and yes, even moa. That’s not a complete list.

If anything, Mesmer is currently underpowered, ( as it has been for a majority of the game’s life.)

Yes there is one condi build that is competitive. That build has very little defense against conditions. Necro in particular should have no difficulty against it.

The reality is that there is a lack of skill and understanding on the part of some of the other players.

Here we goooooo!

Ithilwen.1529:

Mesmer has already experienced a massive series of nerfs. The shield (multiple times ), wells, alacrity,blurred frenzy ( multiple times ), confusion and yes, even moa. That’s not a complete list.

If anything, Mesmer is currently underpowered, ( as it has been for a majority of the game’s life.)

Yes there is one condi build that is competitive. That build has very little defense against conditions. Necro in particular should have no difficulty against it.

The reality is that there is a lack of skill and understanding on the part of some of the other players.

With insipiration condi cleansing is not an issue o.O

I could agree with slightly lowering the duration of moa, but not by much. Mesmer is not in a great place right now. I do find them competitive however. Keep them where they are. Tone down some of the real outliers. (Reaper condi pressure, Rev mobility or sustain (increase shiro port from 5 seconds to 8 seconds) Engie sustain, and maybe give a 1 second arm time to some DH traps)

Alphabet.7392:

It’s ridiculous what this class can do. Harder to kill than a kittening necro, port is insane utility, double moa shuts down anything, does not lose any 1v1s. Not to mention a baller teamfighter too because of ridic moa.

They are definitely beatable 1v1, and in a team fight setting they aren’t any more or less killable than any other class.

However, I absolutely agree on one thing: moa + portal.

Not only is moa basically a 10 second stun that can’t be stun-broken (= a guaranteed death sentence in team fights), but combined with proper portal play, a Mesmer is able to turn a 3v3 mid fight into a 4v2 while simultaneously capping/contesting/decapping a side point.
The value this brings to a team hugely outweighs anything other classes could bring to the table, and in that sense, yes: definitely overpowered.

So imo mesmers don’t need buffs or nerfs in general, but it would definitely be healthy for the game if Anet defused that moa one-trick-pony.
A solution to this would be to reduce the duration of moa to ~5 sec (the engi’s version is just 2 sec…) and/or let players end the transformation with stun breaks.

First, Moa is the signature trick of Mesmer. Many have complained about Moa for years, which is why it was given to engi as well. The idea of nerfing it has been proposed and rejected consistently.

This is a learn to play issue.

Mesmer is a burst class (MoA has huge impact in a teamfight) with super mobility (with portal), If mesmer has too power in 1vs1 and teamfight is a broken class.

Very similar issue to thief but little different.

Condi build amplifies this problem, at least the power version has solid counter like dh/thief/reve.

The condi build has issue against condi revenant but MoA (lame) makes always the difference.

So start to rework MoA.

I don’t think Anet will happy to see the pro league dominated by chickens (literally)

Wow this thread

Mesmer doesn’t need a nerf, but Moa might. Specially the double Moa.

pathetic thread .

and condi spam LoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooL

mesmers have and only have condi burst ,the sustain condi pressure is lower than most condi specs in this game currently .

guys to be honest , if you could play shatter mes or condi shatter mes (later is easier )at decent level (not troll with new comers ), stream it .

Also lets face the fact saying stealth double MOA in a tream fight is broken, is like saying the focus fire with two long elite skills and many setups is broken .follow your guys logic , we must nerf focus fire and elite skills spam ,so lets make a rule only one guy in team fight could use elite otherwise anet must be exploded , is this right ?

Kuya.6495:

I have to admit. After those massive nerfs, i am surprised how the class still remains so viable.

With that said, no, no nerfs. We should wait.

SURPRISED? That kitten has been on WvW since forever, the only thing it lacks for spvp is perplexity runes.

So since you guys ignore the setup and teamplay for a moa kill
we should simply remove current pvp mode ,and play 1v1 also no skill rotation is allowed

play it like some card games :
war 100blade :1000 damage VS mesmer mind wrack :800 damage
war wins !

guess its the game you guys enjoy since any more tricks or setups are beyond your understanding

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

musu.9205:

pathetic thread .

and condi spam LoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooL

mesmers have and only have condi burst ,the sustain condi pressure is lower than most condi specs in this game currently .

guys to be honest , if you could play shatter mes or condi shatter mes (later is easier )at decent level (not troll with new comers ), stream it .

Also lets face the fact saying stealth double MOA in a tream fight is broken, is like saying the focus fire with two long elite skills and many setups is broken .follow your guys logic , we must nerf focus fire and elite skills spam ,so lets make a rule only one guy in team fight could use elite otherwise anet must be exploded , is this right ?

I agree that the thread is too much but there is legitimacy in pointing the Moa.

It is easily the strongest elite in the game and you absolutely don’t need stealth to land it against most professions since it is not very obvious to see when mesmer does it unless you really stare at him hard. Specially in the chaos of battle. And the duration…
You basically remove all of a players skills from him for what seems like an eternity. No more stun breaks, no more condi cleanse. If the mesmer is on TS with others it’s a death sentence that he can apply twice. It completely wins fight without much you can do about it. We are FAR from most other elites. Very far.

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

wow guys just wow. no shame at all….

MOA

ok when i played before HOT condi shatter which basically didnt change much beside CS ppl say useless build. i used moa and ppl say useless build as with condi you cant kill moa like power mesmer does. so when power shatter turned you moa almost no QQ was made about it.
now ppl complain cause the ability to doable moa. fact is good player will NEVER doable moa as its 180 sec skill (150 alacrity). when i doable moa its means probably the game is over so i just want to use the skill for the fun of it.

moa has dodges and evade skill which can put you in safe place or LOS place.
also moa can be evaded. yes its hard mid fight so if your ele ally just stick with you and heal you, you should be fine. or engi stealth you etc..
i dueld mesmer in team fight and their moa only hits me 30% of the time and the rest i died only few times cause no endurance. is it op no. is it L2P yes . is it bad allies who wont support you yes.

CONDITIONS

mtd was nerfed
confusion hasnt change a bit (beside mistrust which only helseth use it atm)
so why didnt you complain about it 1 year ago…
with only 2 conditions mainly which does dmg you cant control them?
with burn guard with 1 condition can you?
beside shatters, the condi shatter dont do much dmg directly so save dodge for shatters. or blind or evade or run further till they explode.

compare to necro chill spamm and boon rip – common….

i see ppl with 16 confusion attack like crazy or with 10 torment running what do you expect. they will die. and who 16 confusion and 10 torment. they didnt learn to dodge or evade or cleanse. they didnt learn condi build is like sustain build so over time mesmer has the upper hand so learn when to disengage.

i can ensure you

remove portal and moa and you wont see mesmer at all
nerf moa to 5 sec reduce cd to 90 sec. it will be usless as ppl will now use doable moa to get to 10 sec moa as it used to be… and then you see more QQ
also most of the time moa dies cause of burst from full party and not just 1v1. you only moa 1v1 necros as they can transfer condi to you (OP QQQQQQQQ nerf it. kidding) or if you fight versus ranger 1v1 to finish the job fast has he can sustain longer (QQQQQQQQQQ OPopOPop NERF NERF)

again

if you doable moa once know this. this mesmer is nube and easy kill as for 2 min you have enough time to kill him and he will be almost useless in team fight

This is just a l2p problem, actually Mesmer in spvp are pretty much death with only a build “viable”.

Yeah then, nerf mesmer again. So we will have 8 class in pvp!

musu.9205:

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

Be fair, compare any other elite to Moa and tell me it’s in line with other elites? The other elite too you can counter (a lot easier most of the time) and their effect is FAR less important on most any battle. Heck, when you Moa a tornado or a Lich you not only counter that elite you also turn the table on the poor guy who also invested his elite. And other professions can’t double elite even if they are weaker.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

Be fair, compare any other elite to Moa and tell me it’s in line with other elites? The other elite too you can counter (a lot easier most of the time) and their effect is FAR less important on most any battle. Heck, when you Moa a tornado or a Lich you not only counter that elite you also turn the table on the poor guy who also invested his elite. An other professions can’t double elite even if weaker.

perma stealth engi who can get heal as you can see him using his heal. and also res etc.. OP and basicaly save the engi in this meta

mesmer theme is to control ppl . moa control you. dont fight as moa just run away to LOS. so many places in pvp maps which save you if you just LOS.

believe me TIMEWARP is much OP than moa (with good group) as it control larger area and you are slow with the whole team and you can doable it (20 sec). fact is not many use it atm so they dont scream OP (yet)