Guild Wars 2

I posted this in the thread about constructive necromancer feedback, but someone mentioned that it would be more appropriate to make a new thread about this, so here it goes. This is where you can post what you believe ArenaNet most needs to adjust before the qualifiers for the big PAX tournament. I’ll start off with my own suggestion.

Necromancer

• Dhuumfire: Renamed to “Cruel Punishment”, which reads, “100% chance to cause 2 stacks of Torment for 5 seconds on critical hit. (Cooldown: 10 seconds)” Currently, the addition of Burning damage on top of the other conditions a Necromancer can pump out, plus the long duration fears backed by Terror damage from the meta 30/20/0/0/20 spec mean that targets have little ability to avoid being “condi spiked”. This new access to Burning on top of the new condition Torment means that it has become very easy for Necromancers to overload a team’s condi cleanses in a teamfight due to the amount of condition diversity they have access to, especially when backed up by a second Necromancer or a condi Engineer/Ranger.

• Terror: Moved to Grandmaster tier. “Withering Precision” has been moved to Master tier. Let’s face it: even after the latest patch, Terror is still the strongest trait in the Curses line, and deserves to be at Grandmaster tier. Furthermore, the moving of this trait into Grandmaster makes it impossible to have Dhuumfire, Terror, and Master of Terror in the same build, and gives the Necromancer some very important decisions to make when building for condis. As it stands, it’s just too easy to put all the best condition traits together in the same build and achieve excellent DPS and long CCs with great sustainability — a very deadly combination.

Engineer

• Elixir R: Increased the cooldown to 45 seconds. It is now an instant stun breaker. “Toss Elixir R” now revives 15% per pulse, down from 20%. Eliminating Elixir R as a stun breaker restricted Engineer builds to a severe degree, when all that was really needed was a reduction on its revive power so that (for instance) an Engineer can be finished in a 1v1 without having a very good chance to self-revive. Adjusting its revival power would keep its utility as a team res assist without making Engis as hard to finish in 1v1 and 2v2 situations.

Ranger

• Spirits: All spirit passive abilities now have an internal cooldown of 12 seconds, up from 10 seconds. It’s no secret that Spirit Rangers are on the rise, and it’s largely because of the high amounts of Protection and Burning procs caused while being able to hold their own in most 1v1 situations, making for an optimal home point defender. I don’t believe this build is vastly overpowered, and certain builds (ones with good AoE cleave) can do very well against it. However, the large number of procs generated in a team fight situation is just too high at the moment and could use a small adjustment downward in power level.

Thief

• Shadow Trap: The maximum duration has been decreased to 75 seconds in sPvP, down from 120 seconds. Thieves still have good damage, but their current ubiquity in high level play mostly stems from their extremely high mobility. A well-played thief can feel like it’s everywhere at once, putting pressure on the enemy team’s home point while still being present elsewhere on the map, thanks to the recently-buffed Shadow Trap. While I can appreciate ArenaNet’s desire to make underused utilities more PvP-viable, this one was pushed a little too far. Reducing Shadow Trap’s duration would leave it still viable (similar to how the Mesmer Portal is still useful) while reducing the thief’s mobility to more reasonable levels.

• Infiltrator’s Strike: “Shadow Return” now cannot be used while feared or under a control effect. S/D Thieves are certainly strong (esp. in 1v1 and 2v2), but the most difficult part of dealing with them is that when you do land a well-timed CC while they aren’t evading, they are almost always able to teleport away, wait for the CC to end, and then teleport back. By removing their ability to Shadow Return away while CCed, you are able to punish the Thief at the ends of their evades more easily and thus land some damage on them at opportune moments.

You play a thief, right?

The Boz.2038:

You play a thief, right?

“[AL]Mini Ken (Bunker Guardian) R60”

But I also play the other classes from time to time, and I understand all of their skills and trait lines.

cymerdown.4103:

Engineer

• Elixir R: Increased the cooldown to 45 seconds. It is now an instant stun breaker. “Toss Elixir R” now revives 12% per pulse, down from 20%. Eliminating Elixir R as a stun breaker restricted Engineer builds to a severe degree, when all that was really needed was a reduction on its revive power so that (for instance) an Engineer can be finished in a 1v1 without having a very good chance to self-revive. Adjusting its revival power would keep its utility as a team res assist without making Engis as hard to finish in 1v1 and 2v2 situations.

You do realize that “having a very good chance of self-revive” is exactly the point of that skill?
It has got quite a long base cooldown – 120s, it targets quite a small area and you can already counter it via CC, poison (if it worked properly) and eventually using launches when the target is downed. Basically, instead of having a cast time and an instant effect, it has got an “instant” cast and an effect that takes some time.
And since the actual duration isn’t too long, you’ve also got to time its use wisely (too soon and it won’t last enough when you will be downed, too late and you’ll get downed before actually using it).
If after these drawbacks it doesn’t even have that “very good chance” when it correctly goes off, well, then it would be quite useless.
Especially since we already have a weak utility to compensate for it (just compare Elixir R with Signet of Agility). And even putting the stunbreak back (and thus increasing the cooldown) wouldn’t change too much – it would still be relatively weak for the effects it provides.

Manuhell.2759:

cymerdown.4103:

Engineer

• Elixir R: Increased the cooldown to 45 seconds. It is now an instant stun breaker. “Toss Elixir R” now revives 12% per pulse, down from 20%. Eliminating Elixir R as a stun breaker restricted Engineer builds to a severe degree, when all that was really needed was a reduction on its revive power so that (for instance) an Engineer can be finished in a 1v1 without having a very good chance to self-revive. Adjusting its revival power would keep its utility as a team res assist without making Engis as hard to finish in 1v1 and 2v2 situations.

You do realize that “having a very good chance of self-revive” is exactly the point of that skill?
It has got quite a long base cooldown – 120s, it targets quite a small area and you can already counter it via CC, poison (if it worked properly) and eventually using launches when the target is downed. Basically, instead of having a cast time and an instant effect, it has got an “instant” cast and an effect that takes some time.
And since the actual duration isn’t too long, you’ve also got to time its use wisely (too soon and it won’t last enough when you will be downed, too late and you’ll get downed before actually using it).
If after these drawbacks it doesn’t even have that “very good chance” when it correctly goes off, well, then it would be quite useless.
Especially since we already have a weak utility to compensate for it (just compare Elixir R with Signet of Agility). And even putting the stunbreak back (and thus increasing the cooldown) wouldn’t change too much – it would still be relatively weak for the effects it provides.

So maybe 15% is more appropriate. But anyway, even if it was weakened a bit such thakittens only utility was to help res a teammate and not yourself, it would still be valuable in tPvP. People run team res utilities all the time (Illusion of Life, Spirit of Nature, Warbanner), and none of those also break stun for you, so I’m sure there’s a middle line somewhere that can allow this utility to be run as the sole stunbreaker in those Engi builds but not have the toolbelt skill be too strong, as the devs deemed it was before the nerf.

Funny how you main Guardian, yet post no Guardian changes, but are too eager to destroy the literally only build that necromancers and rangers have right now. Here, let me go into greater detail.

cymerdown.4103:

• Dhuumfire:

This one I actually kinda agree with, in principle. Torment should replace burning. However, I think a single stack as a cover is much better than two stacks with limited uptime. Reasons: covers the valuable conditions, deals less up-front damage, is less at the mercy of RNG and triggering when you don’t want it. 3s single stack Torment on a 3s cooldown, or something like that sounds great.

cymerdown.4103:

• Terror:

Terror moved up? Maybe, I can probably live with that, but it would be a huge kick in the nuts for more tanky X.20.X.X.30 builds.

cymerdown.4103:

• Enfeebling Blood and Weakening Shroud:

No. Wait, let me try that again. Hell no. Not until the Necromancer gets tons of aegis, protection, evasion, vigor, etc. If you think this is a good idea, you really need a reality check. Also, what ease of application? Long cast time, distinctive casting animation, long-ish cooldown, easily avoidable.

cymerdown.4103:

• Elixir R:

“This skill does what it’s supposed to do, and I don’t like that.” Yeah, because wasting a slot on a questionably effective ally/self-rez is always a good idea.

cymerdown.4103:

• Spirits:

“Rangers now still have an effective build, even after the last nerfs, and I don’t like that.” Moving right along…

cymerdown.4103:

• Shadow Trap:

The duration isn’t the problem here, the range is. Reduce range to something like four thousand, otherwise the change has absolutely no effect.

cymerdown.4103:

• Infiltrator’s Strike:

Remove the effectively-stunbreak behavior of Shadow Return? I can see that work. However, this still leaves the thief with an incredibly useful tool for both engaging and disengaging. Tools that the thief has plenty of. The thief will never be balanced if he gets to keep both the current stealth mechanic AND his mobility/disengage options. Unless they decide to nerf the damage and destroy the class completely…

Shadow return doesn’t break cc since 2 patches ago…..

dovrak.4376:

Shadow return doesn’t break cc since 2 patches ago…..

You misread what I wrote. Currently, if you press Shadow Return while CCed, it will still teleport you back, it just won’t stun break. What I’m saying is I believe it should not be able to teleport you back while you’re stunned (it is grayed out like the rest of your skills).

All of these changes are very good in my opinion except for the thief ones. IMO something else should be changed about thieves.

Great notes overall though.

This vendetta against S/P and S/D is cray

Phantaram.1265:

All of these changes are very good in my opinion except for the thief ones. IMO something else should be changed about thieves.

Great notes overall though.

Thanks, Phant. What would you do about thief? Do you think my changes are too harsh, or don’t do enough?

The Terror change would hurt alot more builds than you think. A simple change to dhuumfire would be worth it. The normal condition build before dhuumfire has been completely gutted away in favor of ‘balancing’ the trait. That means 0/20/20/0/30 will not be available for those necros who want the stability or soul marks, ultimately crippling both sides of damage and survivability. The latter being the one things necros need. You add too much baggage to a build, and people stop even considering it. This is evident with Greater Marks. People simply wont take it anymore in most cases because the baggage is horrendous. Now imagine if you put the prime trait for Necromancer in a grandmaster. I can’t imagine how many people will jump ship from the class alltogether.

However, I welcome the other changes. They are annoying, but are fine balance wise.

The Boz.2038:

Funny how you main Guardian, yet post no Guardian changes, but are too eager to destroy the literally only build that necromancers and rangers have right now. Here, let me go into greater detail.

Honestly, I’m not out to “destroy” any builds. I’m just trying to help fix some of the broken stuff before the tournament (and you can tell stuff is somewhat broken when a bunch of the players in said tournament are concerned enough to get on here and start threads about it). I didn’t post anything about Guardian because the one viable tournament spec for it is neither too strong nor absurdly weak at the moment, and isn’t in such a condition as to need hotfixing.

The Boz.2038:

cymerdown.4103:

• Enfeebling Blood and Weakening Shroud:

No. Wait, let me try that again. Hell no. Not until the Necromancer gets tons of aegis, protection, evasion, vigor, etc. If you think this is a good idea, you really need a reality check. Also, what ease of application? Long cast time, distinctive casting animation, long-ish cooldown, easily avoidable.

Enfeebling Blood is easy enough to see and avoid in a 1v1 situation, sure. But in the middle of a team fight it’s not really possible for 2-4 people to all avoid it, and then there’s also the trait. And then you epi the weakness. Now you begin to see the problem. Now that Necro has some good sustain in Spectral Armor and the buffed lifeforce pool, we can afford to see a bit less AoE Weakness application (I’ve got no problem with single-target Weakness, but Weakness is a very powerful debuff now, and any AoE applications of it have to be looked at very carefully), and thus hopefully revive some more viability in power builds.

The Boz.2038:

cymerdown.4103:

• Elixir R:

“This skill does what it’s supposed to do, and I don’t like that.” Yeah, because wasting a slot on a questionably effective ally/self-rez is always a good idea.

Actually, I’m trying to buff Elixir R from its current state, not nerf it. The fact is, since the stun break was removed from it, it can no longer be run in a lot of builds that used to make good use of it because then that build would have 0 stunbreaks — can’t exactly Toss Elixir R to save yourself when you’re dying to a backstab combo before you can even move. So yeah, let’s return the stun break to it but lower the amount that it resses for, so we can see more Engis returning to high level team comps!

The Boz.2038:

cymerdown.4103:

• Spirits:

“Rangers now still have an effective build, even after the last nerfs, and I don’t like that.” Moving right along…

Nah, I like Spirit Rangers — heck, my team has one. I just think the passives, especially the Burning procs, are a little too much in team fights at the moment, especially when you consider that the spirits can all proc each others’ passives when their active abilities are used. I think my pretty mild adjustment of 2 more seconds on the icd of the passives would reduce the burn spam to more manageable levels while keeping the spec very viable (like I said, it’s just a bit over the top at the moment, not insanely so).

The Boz.2038:

cymerdown.4103:

• Shadow Trap:

The duration isn’t the problem here, the range is. Reduce range to something like four thousand, otherwise the change has absolutely no effect.

Eh, 4k range is very short, not even enough to port from mid to near a side point on most maps, and let’s not forget about WvW. I mean, at some point, the duration becomes important, right? For example, if the duration was 10 seconds, nobody would use it. I think the magic number is probably somewhere between 60 and 90 seconds, I’m not exactly sure what it really is, so I went with 75.

Loyo.8526:

The Terror change would hurt alot more builds than you think. A simple change to dhuumfire would be worth it. The normal condition build before dhuumfire has been completely gutted away in favor of ‘balancing’ the trait. That means 0/20/20/0/30 will not be available for those necros who want the stability or soul marks, ultimately crippling both sides of damage and survivability. The latter being the one things necros need. You add too much baggage to a build, and people stop even considering it. This is evident with Greater Marks. People simply wont take it anymore in most cases because the baggage is horrendous. Now imagine if you put the prime trait for Necromancer in a grandmaster. I can’t imagine how many people will jump ship from the class alltogether.

However, I welcome the other changes. They are annoying, but are fine balance wise.

Thanks! I think if you want Terror with the survivability, 0/30/20/0/20 would still be good, you just wouldn’t gain access to stability. With all the recent buffs, I’m sure there are viable condition builds that wouldn’t even use Terror, but if you want it, it makes sense to put the full 30 points into Curses to get it, since it is a very very good trait.

Weakening Shroud/Enfeebling Blood change: Nonononononononono.

The rest are good.

Updated Elixir R to 15%/pulse, since I honestly think that’s a pretty fair place to start. I really want to see it return to tournament play.

As a thief, I can say that the sword shadow return idea is a good idea. That, or give shadow return a CD so that you can’t spam sword 2 as a engage/disengage.

If you are not able to shadow return when you are CC’d then people would actually learn to dodge instead of relying so much on shadow return saving their kitten .

I play d/p so I really only get 2 dodges, no vigor, so timing is everything. I just feel a lot of s/d thieves spam dodge mindlessly and should be punished for it.

I honestly don’t think your change to the spirit ranger is enough (just for reference, I’ve mained ranger since beta).

Really, one of the biggest issues is that throughout a match, rangers can keep their spirits up 100% of the time if nobody ever takes the time to kill them. For opponents, killing the spirit can be a double edged sword because there is no visible timer on them, and with Nature’s Vengeance, there is a real chance that they can kill the spirits, have them use their actives on death, get hit by those (with procs that last a few seconds after death), only to have the ranger resummon them almost immediately at times and be at no disadvantage whatsoever.

My suggestion is to make the duration for the spirits shorter than their cooldown. Now, rangers have to play their build a bit more actively, and think about when they use their spirits. “Do I use them all now to win the duel, and then have them on cooldown when I get to the teamfight? Or do I use them at the teamfight to win the teamfight, knowing that with my skill level I’ll be able to hold a sidepoint without them, or until they come off of recharge?”

Yes, the passive effects are strong, but the lack of needing to know when to use them, and just being able to keep them up all the time, is worse.

cymerdown.4103:

dovrak.4376:

Shadow return doesn’t break cc since 2 patches ago…..

You misread what I wrote. Currently, if you press Shadow Return while CCed, it will still teleport you back, it just won’t stun break. What I’m saying is I believe it should not be able to teleport you back while you’re stunned (it is grayed out like the rest of your skills).

Oh gotcha, similar to ele’s blink, doesn’t break cc anymore, but you can teleport right after. If we fix this we gotta fix every weapon whit similar behaviors, like mesmers staff backflip etc.

Amaterasu.6280:

snip

Thanks, Kuro! Good to see a high level thiefs opinion on it. Yeah, I honestly think that’s the biggest issue, not the amount of evades but the difficulty in punishing the non-evade frames with CC, there’s just not enough counterplay to it right now.

LOOOOOL!!! a Guardian trying to nerf Necros, this is hilarious!!! and extremely biased ofc.

Dhuumfire: if something is done to this trait, it should be moved to master or even adept tier. The reason is quite simple, we would have a 30 points trait worse than a 10 point trait in engis. This should never ever happen. It’d only claim bad design! bad design!

Terror: moving it to GM won’t be necessary if Dhuumfire is nerfed. No condi necro would ever take 30 points in Spite for an underwhelming trait. Terror was nerfed last patch, so no further nerfs are needed to Dhuumfire or Terror. Grow a pair, you are a guardian, the most solid class, ever wanted in pvp and if you get a counter (like the current condi necro) adapt, learn to play and stop crying for nerfs to other classes you don’t play or you don’t know widely.

This PAX tourney should be done with the current builds, i.e. no more nerfs no more buffs. This will teach Devs and players that necros are OK, and not OP like a lot of uninformed ppl like to say

dovrak.4376:

cymerdown.4103:

dovrak.4376:

Shadow return doesn’t break cc since 2 patches ago…..

You misread what I wrote. Currently, if you press Shadow Return while CCed, it will still teleport you back, it just won’t stun break. What I’m saying is I believe it should not be able to teleport you back while you’re stunned (it is grayed out like the rest of your skills).

Oh gotcha, similar to ele’s blink, doesn’t break cc anymore, but you can teleport right after. If we fix this we gotta fix every weapon whit similar behaviors, like mesmers staff backflip etc.

Maybe, although the Mesmer staff at least has a (short) cool down on it, less range, and they don’t have as many evades as sword dagger thief, so I’m not quite as concerned about it. But yeah, Phase Retreat is also pretty nice.

cymerdown.4103:

Furthermore, the moving of this trait into Grandmaster makes it impossible to have Dhuumfire, Terror, and Master of Terror in the same build, and gives the Necromancer some very important decisions to make when building for condis.

Why this situation in other classes is called Synergy and in necros are called OPness?

cymerdown.4103:

But I also play the other classes from time to time, and I understand all of their skills and trait lines.

it’s obvious to me that you don’t know about necro trait lines, they are a mess. We lack of synergy in every tree, and you are asking for more mediocrity on necromancer traits, this is infuriating! Stay with your guarding, and let the informed ppl take the decisions.

vicious.5683:

LOOOOOL!!! a Guardian trying to nerf Necros, this is hilarious!!! and extremely biased ofc.

Dhuumfire: if something is done to this trait, it should be moved to master or even adept tier. The reason is quite simple, we would have a 30 points trait worse than a 10 point trait in engis. This should never ever happen. It’d only claim bad design! bad design!

Terror: moving it to GM won’t be necessary if Dhuumfire is nerfed. No condi necro would ever take 30 points in Spite for an underwhelming trait. Terror was nerfed last patch, so no further nerfs are needed to Dhuumfire or Terror. Grow a pair, you are a guardian, the most solid class, ever wanted in pvp and if you get a counter (like the current condi necro) adapt, learn to play and stop crying for nerfs to other classes you don’t play or you don’t know widely.

This PAX tourney should be done with the current builds, i.e. no more nerfs no more buffs. This will teach Devs and players that necros are OK, and not OP like a lot of uninformed ppl like to say

I play Necro as well, and if you don’t think the class is overpowered tier 1 not close, then I just gotta say, you’re not playing it right. You will see at least 1, if not 2 Necros in over half the teams in this tournament, including both that make it to the finals, I could almost guarantee it. And actually, what I don’t like is that Necro makes Guardian MORE necessary, not less, because good luck winning a team fight without cleanses in the current meta. I don’t want to nerf Necro to the level of unplayability, I just want more team comps to be viable than Guard Necro Ranger Thief X.

Amaterasu.6280:

As a thief, I can say that the sword shadow return idea is a good idea. That, or give shadow return a CD so that you can’t spam sword 2 as a engage/disengage.

If you are not able to shadow return when you are CC’d then people would actually learn to dodge instead of relying so much on shadow return saving their kitten .

I play d/p so I really only get 2 dodges, no vigor, so timing is everything. I just feel a lot of s/d thieves spam dodge mindlessly and should be punished for it.

You either do not play a thief, or have a very subpar level of understanding of your own class.
Engaging/Disengaging at will is the entire point of Sword MH- it’s what the rest of the weaponset is built around. It is the only non-stealth option thieves get that allows them to survive.

Without it, Sword MH is positively and demonstrably worse than D/P in every single way. I’m not sure how you could not understand this if you’ve ever actually played a thief – that is not an insult, just an honest observation.

Playing D/P has absolutely nothing to do with how many dodges you get, or your access to vigor – it’s all about where you spend your points. As D/P, you’re probably heavily invested in SA, and with good reason. you could put 30 points in Acro and get better endurance regen and vigor access, but you chose not to. It’d be like my complaining that my S/D thief doesn’t heal in stealth or drop conditions or get init for going into stealth…S/D has nothing to do with it, I just didn’t put the points into SA.

cymerdown.4103:

… I want more team comps to be viable than Guard Necro Ranger Thief X.

Guardians are in team comps since ever, they have the best bunkering capabilities. Are they OP because no team runs 0 guardians? Why I don’t see any nerfs to your own class if your purpose is to change the meta? Lets nerf guardians to make other bunkers viable. Lets nerf their area denial for example or make GM a M trait useful to your build to make your choices more interesting… This is ridiculous..

You are biased, propose some nerfs to guardian, that make other classes good choice for bunker too. Then I’ll take you seriously.

I think the shadow return in #2 s/d thief is fine. Its mechanic is similar to shadow step/steal. It works even when disable. It is already a nerf when it is no more a stun break. however, I think the amount of evasion need to tone down. I suggest to place an internal c/d on Vigorous Trait (30 s maybe?) since it is almost use with low cd healing skill (Withdraw) in most evade spamming build. The current Thief’s ability to access vigor is huge through this trait.

Illidan.6802:

I think the shadow return in #2 s/d thief is fine. Its mechanic is similar to shadow step/steal. It works even when disable. It is already a nerf when it is no more a stun break. however, I think the amount of evasion need to tone down. I suggest to place an internal c/d on Vigorous Trait (30 s maybe?) since it is almost use with low cd healing skill (Withdraw) in most evade spamming build. The current Thief’s ability to access vigor is huge through this trait.

What do you suggest as an alternative then? You can’t take a defensive measure from the squishiest class in the game (no access to protection/stability/aegis, poor access to regen, poor toughness scaling when compared to DPS lost) and not replace it with anything.

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

As a thief, I can say that the sword shadow return idea is a good idea. That, or give shadow return a CD so that you can’t spam sword 2 as a engage/disengage.

If you are not able to shadow return when you are CC’d then people would actually learn to dodge instead of relying so much on shadow return saving their kitten .

I play d/p so I really only get 2 dodges, no vigor, so timing is everything. I just feel a lot of s/d thieves spam dodge mindlessly and should be punished for it.

You either do not play a thief, or have a very subpar level of understanding of your own class.
Engaging/Disengaging at will is the entire point of Sword MH- it’s what the rest of the weaponset is built around. It is the only non-stealth option thieves get that allows them to survive.

Without it, Sword MH is positively and demonstrably worse than D/P in every single way. I’m not sure how you could not understand this if you’ve ever actually played a thief – that is not an insult, just an honest observation.

Playing D/P has absolutely nothing to do with how many dodges you get, or your access to vigor – it’s all about where you spend your points. As D/P, you’re probably heavily invested in SA, and with good reason. you could put 30 points in Acro and get better endurance regen and vigor access, but you chose not to. It’d be like my complaining that my S/D thief doesn’t heal in stealth or drop conditions or get init for going into stealth…S/D has nothing to do with it, I just didn’t put the points into SA.

I have 3500 games with a thief, so I’m not going to even defend your claim of my “sub-par” understanding of my class. I am trying to give unbiased thoughts here, as I DO know the class.

Engaging and disengaging is the whole point of the sword MH, I get it, but if you have played a thief yourself or against it, you would know that sword #2 is OP. This is not a myth, but the truth.

For example, if the shadow return on #2 was limited to say, 600r, the same range that the initial hit is, then it’d be more balanced. If there was a CD on shadow return, then it would be more balanced. You don’t think that it’s a problem that sword #2 serves as a ALWAYS accessible stunbreak (even after the “nerf”) at 1200r? You arguably don’t even need shadowstep because of the above.

And how exactly would sword MH be worse than d/p if there was a nerf to sword #2? You STILL have hard hitting AOE cleave + larcenous strike, which is a evade + boon strip in itself. The fact that you think that the weapon set is totally done with a nerf to shadow return via sword #2, proves my points exactly – it’s THAT good.

On top of being able to chain 8+ dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) , you think that there is no problem with that?

Btw, no tourney d/p thieves run 30 in SA unless you play like Cruuk. It seems like you’re not very familiar with the current tpvp meta…

S/D is not squishy, S/D has the survivabillity of a bunker on open field with high DPS and the most damaging skill bound to an evade. You can´t CC them because they will have a safe Jumpspot somewhere to sit out the CC. You can only very hardly burst them because of dodge/evade. With shadow trap thingy they can reset any fight whenever they want.

good changes but i hate it when people reprint stuff in a new topic already stated in previous article. Its like this has already been posted in the appropriate thread so why reprint it.

Amaterasu.6280:

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

As a thief, I can say that the sword shadow return idea is a good idea. That, or give shadow return a CD so that you can’t spam sword 2 as a engage/disengage.

If you are not able to shadow return when you are CC’d then people would actually learn to dodge instead of relying so much on shadow return saving their kitten .

I play d/p so I really only get 2 dodges, no vigor, so timing is everything. I just feel a lot of s/d thieves spam dodge mindlessly and should be punished for it.

You either do not play a thief, or have a very subpar level of understanding of your own class.
Engaging/Disengaging at will is the entire point of Sword MH- it’s what the rest of the weaponset is built around. It is the only non-stealth option thieves get that allows them to survive.

Without it, Sword MH is positively and demonstrably worse than D/P in every single way. I’m not sure how you could not understand this if you’ve ever actually played a thief – that is not an insult, just an honest observation.

Playing D/P has absolutely nothing to do with how many dodges you get, or your access to vigor – it’s all about where you spend your points. As D/P, you’re probably heavily invested in SA, and with good reason. you could put 30 points in Acro and get better endurance regen and vigor access, but you chose not to. It’d be like my complaining that my S/D thief doesn’t heal in stealth or drop conditions or get init for going into stealth…S/D has nothing to do with it, I just didn’t put the points into SA.

I have 3500 games with a thief, so I’m not going to even defend your claim of my “sub-par” understanding of my class. I am trying to give unbiased thoughts here, as I DO know the class.

Engaging and disengaging is the whole point of the sword MH, I get it, but if you have played a thief yourself or against it, you would know that sword #2 is OP. This is not a myth, but the truth.

For example, if the shadow return on #2 was limited to say, 600r, the same range that the initial hit is, then it’d be more balanced. If there was a CD on shadow return, then it would be more balanced. You don’t think that it’s a problem that sword #2 serves as a ALWAYS accessible stunbreak (even after the “nerf”) at 1200r? You arguably don’t even need shadowstep because of the above.

And how exactly would sword MH be worse than d/p if there was a nerf to sword #2? You STILL have hard hitting AOE cleave + larcenous strike, which is a evade + boon strip in itself. The fact that you think that the weapon set is totally done with a nerf to shadow return via sword #2, proves my points exactly – it’s THAT good.

On top of being able to chain 8+ dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) , you think that there is no problem with that?

Btw, no tourney d/p thieves run 30 in SA unless you play like Cruuk. It seems like you’re not very familiar with the current tpvp meta…

So you’ve played 3500 matches, but the words your saying still lead me to believe you don’t really understand basic meta.

If you’re capitalizing on swords AOE cleave, you’re in the Cleave radius of other classes – Thief isn’t built to tough that situation out – if your tanky enough to try to wade into an AoE Fest, your damage is crap, and if your damage is high enough to be considered a problem, you’ll be down 90% health and ticking 3-4 separate conditions in less than 5 seconds. You might score a few extra hits, but you’re not sitting in the middle of an AoE kittenfest and DPSing a ton of targets – you just don’t have the tools to do so, and thats fine, Thieves have different tools (like Inf strike/SR, as an example)

LS isn’t an evade, FS is – but I’m sure that was just a slip of the tongue anyone who’s played 3500 games with a thief might make.

“dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) " – You can run withdraw (Which breaks snares/roots, not stuns, but again you knew that having played 3500 games on your thief. Also, don’t quote me on this one because I’m not sure of it, but I don’t think withdraw is 1200r.). In fact, your traits/utilities/heal setup is entirely independent of your weapon sets! Imagine that.

I understand you feel Sword #2 is broken – I’m probably not going to convince you otherwise. But saying that it’s a “Fact”, not a “Myth”, is silly, because its just your opinion (which, in case it wasn’t clear, I completely disagree with).

Amaterasu.6280:

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

As a thief, I can say that the sword shadow return idea is a good idea. That, or give shadow return a CD so that you can’t spam sword 2 as a engage/disengage.

If you are not able to shadow return when you are CC’d then people would actually learn to dodge instead of relying so much on shadow return saving their kitten .

I play d/p so I really only get 2 dodges, no vigor, so timing is everything. I just feel a lot of s/d thieves spam dodge mindlessly and should be punished for it.

You either do not play a thief, or have a very subpar level of understanding of your own class.
Engaging/Disengaging at will is the entire point of Sword MH- it’s what the rest of the weaponset is built around. It is the only non-stealth option thieves get that allows them to survive.

Without it, Sword MH is positively and demonstrably worse than D/P in every single way. I’m not sure how you could not understand this if you’ve ever actually played a thief – that is not an insult, just an honest observation.

Playing D/P has absolutely nothing to do with how many dodges you get, or your access to vigor – it’s all about where you spend your points. As D/P, you’re probably heavily invested in SA, and with good reason. you could put 30 points in Acro and get better endurance regen and vigor access, but you chose not to. It’d be like my complaining that my S/D thief doesn’t heal in stealth or drop conditions or get init for going into stealth…S/D has nothing to do with it, I just didn’t put the points into SA.

I have 3500 games with a thief, so I’m not going to even defend your claim of my “sub-par” understanding of my class. I am trying to give unbiased thoughts here, as I DO know the class.

Engaging and disengaging is the whole point of the sword MH, I get it, but if you have played a thief yourself or against it, you would know that sword #2 is OP. This is not a myth, but the truth.

For example, if the shadow return on #2 was limited to say, 600r, the same range that the initial hit is, then it’d be more balanced. If there was a CD on shadow return, then it would be more balanced. You don’t think that it’s a problem that sword #2 serves as a ALWAYS accessible stunbreak (even after the “nerf”) at 1200r? You arguably don’t even need shadowstep because of the above.

And how exactly would sword MH be worse than d/p if there was a nerf to sword #2? You STILL have hard hitting AOE cleave + larcenous strike, which is a evade + boon strip in itself. The fact that you think that the weapon set is totally done with a nerf to shadow return via sword #2, proves my points exactly – it’s THAT good.

On top of being able to chain 8+ dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) , you think that there is no problem with that?

Btw, no tourney d/p thieves run 30 in SA unless you play like Cruuk. It seems like you’re not very familiar with the current tpvp meta…

I don’t think you’ve fully thought this out Kuro. You were suggesting 600 range before

Dropping the range of the two is basically going to put S/P and S/D in a constant nuke range. S/P having a wind up evade self root evade skill with our base stats and armor not encouraging that. Without the inherit stealth option as a counter measure to range fire, a ranger’s pretty much just going to keep pressing 1 on you, even the options for LoS get significantly reduced dropping SR’s range.
Prior to the april update the same held true for S/D. Flanking stab always followed flanking strike so the tell for damage was incredibly clear which meant timing was crucial (but at the time you were rewarded fairly poorly for landing that stab relative to the ease of avoiding it).

If I get shot whatever but the clearest change is to keep the new tracking and fuse the 3 back into a single skill instead of a chain.

With Shadow return being locked down while CC’d you you make it quite easy to punish main hand sword. In fact Rune’s of Nightmare which go through evade is going to set you up to get spiked to hell and back. Which would be fine if the options for stability became something more than dagger storm, but I don’t think that will happen.

These are very good changes but i would add something like that:

General:
Evade skills – now if you use an evade skill (thief, ranger etc. ) you lose 25% of endurance (or + – %).

Mesmer
Remove MoA and replace it with a strong elite with a strong condition removal aoe (or condition immunity) with a not long cd (45-90sec max CD)

Amaterasu.6280:

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

As a thief, I can say that the sword shadow return idea is a good idea. That, or give shadow return a CD so that you can’t spam sword 2 as a engage/disengage.

If you are not able to shadow return when you are CC’d then people would actually learn to dodge instead of relying so much on shadow return saving their kitten .

I play d/p so I really only get 2 dodges, no vigor, so timing is everything. I just feel a lot of s/d thieves spam dodge mindlessly and should be punished for it.

You either do not play a thief, or have a very subpar level of understanding of your own class.
Engaging/Disengaging at will is the entire point of Sword MH- it’s what the rest of the weaponset is built around. It is the only non-stealth option thieves get that allows them to survive.

Without it, Sword MH is positively and demonstrably worse than D/P in every single way. I’m not sure how you could not understand this if you’ve ever actually played a thief – that is not an insult, just an honest observation.

Playing D/P has absolutely nothing to do with how many dodges you get, or your access to vigor – it’s all about where you spend your points. As D/P, you’re probably heavily invested in SA, and with good reason. you could put 30 points in Acro and get better endurance regen and vigor access, but you chose not to. It’d be like my complaining that my S/D thief doesn’t heal in stealth or drop conditions or get init for going into stealth…S/D has nothing to do with it, I just didn’t put the points into SA.

I have 3500 games with a thief, so I’m not going to even defend your claim of my “sub-par” understanding of my class. I am trying to give unbiased thoughts here, as I DO know the class.

Engaging and disengaging is the whole point of the sword MH, I get it, but if you have played a thief yourself or against it, you would know that sword #2 is OP. This is not a myth, but the truth.

For example, if the shadow return on #2 was limited to say, 600r, the same range that the initial hit is, then it’d be more balanced. If there was a CD on shadow return, then it would be more balanced. You don’t think that it’s a problem that sword #2 serves as a ALWAYS accessible stunbreak (even after the “nerf”) at 1200r? You arguably don’t even need shadowstep because of the above.

And how exactly would sword MH be worse than d/p if there was a nerf to sword #2? You STILL have hard hitting AOE cleave + larcenous strike, which is a evade + boon strip in itself. The fact that you think that the weapon set is totally done with a nerf to shadow return via sword #2, proves my points exactly – it’s THAT good.

On top of being able to chain 8+ dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) , you think that there is no problem with that?

Btw, no tourney d/p thieves run 30 in SA unless you play like Cruuk. It seems like you’re not very familiar with the current tpvp meta…

As a thief, tell you that Withdraw is not a stun break. D/P has access to stealth on demand as its defensive mechanic, not even mention Black Powder. What does S/D thief have? Evasion, and on demand escaping when something when wrong. S/D dps is lower than D/P. Also, it is not like sword 2 does not cost initiatives. It is 5 for total an attack and return. The counter can position him/herself close to the Return circle to take advantage of his/her cc. On the other hand, the S/D thief doesn’t need additional buff in return, but should be toned down in accessing to vigor. It is not like we take away all the evade from the thief, but limit in some ways so that, at least, other play can land some attacks. It also make the S/D thief utilize his/her dodges better instead of just spamming them.

vicious.5683:

cymerdown.4103:

… I want more team comps to be viable than Guard Necro Ranger Thief X.

Guardians are in team comps since ever, they have the best bunkering capabilities. Are they OP because no team runs 0 guardians? Why I don’t see any nerfs to your own class if your purpose is to change the meta? Lets nerf guardians to make other bunkers viable. Lets nerf their area denial for example or make GM a M trait useful to your build to make your choices more interesting… This is ridiculous..

You are biased, propose some nerfs to guardian, that make other classes good choice for bunker too. Then I’ll take you seriously.

I’ve always thought the main reason that Guardians have always been the only viable midpoint bunker is their access to AoE stability, protection, and the most AoE cleansing. I think the long term solution for that is to give a bit more access to these things to the other midpoint bunker candidates like Warrior, Ele, and Engi, while cutting down a little bit of the Guardian’s. For example, I’ve said in the past that SYGs cool down could be increased to 40s and it would still be an excellent utility. I don’t think Guardian is so good it’s broken or anything, it’s just that other bunker classes need to be brought up to match the Guardian. That level of changes would be outside of the scope of this hot fix, though.

I like the suggested Dhuumfire change. Burning doesn’t need to be a part of the necros arsenal, the necro community didn’t ask for it either, and torment is a better fit for an attrition class.

I’ve tried S/D thief before and to be honest, I get totally wrecked with it compared to D/P, or just about any build I run on necro (I main thief/necro).

Jumper certainly plays well with it but unless I’m just not getting it, I’d say the skill cap on S/D is already a lot higher than D/P or D/D. In my opinion the thing about thieves is that if you do get successfully CC chained, you are almost certainly going to be dead by the end. And that’s not the case for other classes which are more survivable.

Another nerf necro thread. Really? We have enough of these already.

Phantaram.1265:

All of these changes are very good in my opinion except for the thief ones. IMO something else should be changed about thieves.

Great notes overall though.

agreed

cymerdown.4103:

vicious.5683:

LOOOOOL!!! a Guardian trying to nerf Necros, this is hilarious!!! and extremely biased ofc.

Dhuumfire: if something is done to this trait, it should be moved to master or even adept tier. The reason is quite simple, we would have a 30 points trait worse than a 10 point trait in engis. This should never ever happen. It’d only claim bad design! bad design!

Terror: moving it to GM won’t be necessary if Dhuumfire is nerfed. No condi necro would ever take 30 points in Spite for an underwhelming trait. Terror was nerfed last patch, so no further nerfs are needed to Dhuumfire or Terror. Grow a pair, you are a guardian, the most solid class, ever wanted in pvp and if you get a counter (like the current condi necro) adapt, learn to play and stop crying for nerfs to other classes you don’t play or you don’t know widely.

This PAX tourney should be done with the current builds, i.e. no more nerfs no more buffs. This will teach Devs and players that necros are OK, and not OP like a lot of uninformed ppl like to say

I play Necro as well, and if you don’t think the class is overpowered tier 1 not close, then I just gotta say, you’re not playing it right. You will see at least 1, if not 2 Necros in over half the teams in this tournament, including both that make it to the finals, I could almost guarantee it. And actually, what I don’t like is that Necro makes Guardian MORE necessary, not less, because good luck winning a team fight without cleanses in the current meta. I don’t want to nerf Necro to the level of unplayability, I just want more team comps to be viable than Guard Necro Ranger Thief X.

This man speaks truth

Thanks, Blinx. Looks like the hotfix in question has been decided upon, though. Hopefully some of these will be considerations for the future.

Weakness is 6 seconds on Enfeebling Blood (25 second cooldown) no traits or condition duration. Weakening Shroud has ICD of 15 seconds I believe.

Streets.2705:

Weakness is 6 seconds on Enfeebling Blood (25 second cooldown) no traits or condition duration. Weakening Shroud has ICD of 15 seconds I believe.

Yeah, I just checked it in game, the wiki was outdated and still shows 10s when it’s 6s now. Nevermind about that change, then. I updated my post to reflect this.

evilapprentice.6379:

So you’ve played 3500 matches, but the words your saying still lead me to believe you don’t really understand basic meta.

If you’re capitalizing on swords AOE cleave, you’re in the Cleave radius of other classes – Thief isn’t built to tough that situation out – if your tanky enough to try to wade into an AoE Fest, your damage is crap, and if your damage is high enough to be considered a problem, you’ll be down 90% health and ticking 3-4 separate conditions in less than 5 seconds. You might score a few extra hits, but you’re not sitting in the middle of an AoE kittenfest and DPSing a ton of targets – you just don’t have the tools to do so, and thats fine, Thieves have different tools (like Inf strike/SR, as an example)

LS isn’t an evade, FS is – but I’m sure that was just a slip of the tongue anyone who’s played 3500 games with a thief might make.

“dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) " – You can run withdraw (Which breaks snares/roots, not stuns, but again you knew that having played 3500 games on your thief. Also, don’t quote me on this one because I’m not sure of it, but I don’t think withdraw is 1200r.). In fact, your traits/utilities/heal setup is entirely independent of your weapon sets! Imagine that.

I understand you feel Sword #2 is broken – I’m probably not going to convince you otherwise. But saying that it’s a “Fact”, not a “Myth”, is silly, because its just your opinion (which, in case it wasn’t clear, I completely disagree with).

First I’d like to eat my words and say that I was wrong about the withdraw range. It is indeed not 1200r, but more around 600? It sucks that the description doesn’t have it’s range listed, but testing it again, it seems like it’s probably around that. For that, I apologize. I have no problems admitting I’m wrong about details. However, it does not mask the true problem.

I do mean FS as the evade, but I said LS probably because you have to use FS to get LS.

Anyway, I stand by my words – sword #2 is broken, and you can believe it’s just MY opinion or not…but I guess a lot of people playing casually and in high lvl tpvp share MY opinions then…

Amaterasu.6280:

evilapprentice.6379:

So you’ve played 3500 matches, but the words your saying still lead me to believe you don’t really understand basic meta.

If you’re capitalizing on swords AOE cleave, you’re in the Cleave radius of other classes – Thief isn’t built to tough that situation out – if your tanky enough to try to wade into an AoE Fest, your damage is crap, and if your damage is high enough to be considered a problem, you’ll be down 90% health and ticking 3-4 separate conditions in less than 5 seconds. You might score a few extra hits, but you’re not sitting in the middle of an AoE kittenfest and DPSing a ton of targets – you just don’t have the tools to do so, and thats fine, Thieves have different tools (like Inf strike/SR, as an example)

LS isn’t an evade, FS is – but I’m sure that was just a slip of the tongue anyone who’s played 3500 games with a thief might make.

“dodges via traits, almost perma vigor, signet of agility + withdraw (which is also a 1200r stunbreak) " – You can run withdraw (Which breaks snares/roots, not stuns, but again you knew that having played 3500 games on your thief. Also, don’t quote me on this one because I’m not sure of it, but I don’t think withdraw is 1200r.). In fact, your traits/utilities/heal setup is entirely independent of your weapon sets! Imagine that.

I understand you feel Sword #2 is broken – I’m probably not going to convince you otherwise. But saying that it’s a “Fact”, not a “Myth”, is silly, because its just your opinion (which, in case it wasn’t clear, I completely disagree with).

First I’d like to eat my words and say that I was wrong about the withdraw range. It is indeed not 1200r, but more around 600? It sucks that the description doesn’t have it’s range listed, but testing it again, it seems like it’s probably around that. For that, I apologize. I have no problems admitting I’m wrong about details. However, it does not mask the true problem.

I do mean FS as the evade, but I said LS probably because you have to use FS to get LS.

Anyway, I stand by my words – sword #2 is broken, and you can believe it’s just MY opinion or not…but I guess a lot of people playing casually and in high lvl tpvp share MY opinions then…

I completely understand that mistakes happen – I wasn’t confident saying “withdraw isnt 1200r” because of exactly what you pointed out – the range isn’t listed, and I couldn’t claim to know for a fact that the range wasn’t 1200. However, I’ve played my thief long enough to “know” (notice the quotes) that withdraw wasn’t 1200r – I couldn’t tell you the exact range, but I could guarantee it wasn’t the same as Shadow Step’s range.

It’s incredibly hard to take your opinion seriously when you claim to have played thief for over 3,000 games, but still claim Withdraw is a stunbreaker, and that LS has evasion attached to it- these are mistakes people unfamiliar with thief make – heck, these are mistakes people who are so convinced that they’re right that they don’t bother to take 20 seconds to cross-check Gw2skills make. I consider myself pretty well informed as far as a Thief’s available skills go, and I’ll still check a build editor before I make any definitive claims on the boards, because I don’t want my position weakened by incorrect assertions.

That’s why when you say “I feel Sword #2 is broken”, I just kind of laugh to myself and ignore it – I can find support on these boards to claim 80% of the skills, across all classes in this game, are broken; It doesn’t make any of you right.

ensoriki.5789:

I don’t think you’ve fully thought this out Kuro. You were suggesting 600 range before

Dropping the range of the two is basically going to put S/P and S/D in a constant nuke range. S/P having a wind up evade self root evade skill with our base stats and armor not encouraging that. Without the inherit stealth option as a counter measure to range fire, a ranger’s pretty much just going to keep pressing 1 on you, even the options for LoS get significantly reduced dropping SR’s range.
Prior to the april update the same held true for S/D. Flanking stab always followed flanking strike so the tell for damage was incredibly clear which meant timing was crucial (but at the time you were rewarded fairly poorly for landing that stab relative to the ease of avoiding it).

If I get shot whatever but the clearest change is to keep the new tracking and fuse the 3 back into a single skill instead of a chain.

With Shadow return being locked down while CC’d you you make it quite easy to punish main hand sword. In fact Rune’s of Nightmare which go through evade is going to set you up to get spiked to hell and back. Which would be fine if the options for stability became something more than dagger storm, but I don’t think that will happen.

I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved. And sword #2 is one of the biggest problems. I can care less for FS + LS because you can still kill through that but sword #2’s spammable engage at 0-600r and disengage at 1200r is probably mainly responsible for the complaints about how no one can kill a s/d thief. When the 8+ dodges can’t save you, you always have the 1200r disengage…

Or they could just make it so that you can ONLY use sword #2 at 600r with a target so that if you do use it and disengage, you still can, but at least you won’t be popping sword 2 first from way outside the point, go in to the point and pop return whenever something goes wrong.

Shadow return not working while cc’d could honestly be a reasonable change…you still have a million dodges to work with during the fight. I’m sure we’ve all fought enough s/d thieves to realize that their dodges are just as important to sword #2 when it comes to the inability to kill them. We’re trying to just handicap 1 of those ways. I personally thought the patch which made sword #2 “not” a stunbreak is absolutely silly…it IS pretty much a stunbreak anytime you can teleport back at 1200r. No one is going to be catch you at that range before the cc is up unless they teleport to you.

Now I’m not going to lie, shadowstep pathing is still kittenty since they last tried to fix it, so sword #2 isn’t 100% safe, but it’s very much a 90% successful guaranteed disengage especially if the terrain isn’t rugged and leveled.

Amaterasu.6280:

ensoriki.5789:

I don’t think you’ve fully thought this out Kuro. You were suggesting 600 range before

Dropping the range of the two is basically going to put S/P and S/D in a constant nuke range. S/P having a wind up evade self root evade skill with our base stats and armor not encouraging that. Without the inherit stealth option as a counter measure to range fire, a ranger’s pretty much just going to keep pressing 1 on you, even the options for LoS get significantly reduced dropping SR’s range.
Prior to the april update the same held true for S/D. Flanking stab always followed flanking strike so the tell for damage was incredibly clear which meant timing was crucial (but at the time you were rewarded fairly poorly for landing that stab relative to the ease of avoiding it).

If I get shot whatever but the clearest change is to keep the new tracking and fuse the 3 back into a single skill instead of a chain.

With Shadow return being locked down while CC’d you you make it quite easy to punish main hand sword. In fact Rune’s of Nightmare which go through evade is going to set you up to get spiked to hell and back. Which would be fine if the options for stability became something more than dagger storm, but I don’t think that will happen.

I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved. And sword #2 is one of the biggest problems. I can care less for FS + LS because you can still kill through that but sword #2’s spammable engage at 0-600r and disengage at 1200r is probably mainly responsible for the complaints about how no one can kill a s/d thief. When the 8+ dodges can’t save you, you always have the 1200r disengage…

Or they could just make it so that you can ONLY use sword #2 at 600r with a target so that if you do use it and disengage, you still can, but at least you won’t be popping sword 2 first from way outside the point, go in to the point and pop return whenever something goes wrong.

Shadow return not working while cc’d could honestly be a reasonable change…you still have a million dodges to work with during the fight. I’m sure we’ve all fought enough s/d thieves to realize that their dodges are just as important to sword #2 when it comes to the inability to kill them. We’re trying to just handicap 1 of those ways. I personally thought the patch which made sword #2 “not” a stunbreak is absolutely silly…it IS pretty much a stunbreak anytime you can teleport back at 1200r. No one is going to be catch you at that range before the cc is up unless they teleport to you.

Now I’m not going to lie, shadowstep pathing is still kittenty since they last tried to fix it, so sword #2 isn’t 100% safe, but it’s very much a 90% successful guaranteed disengage especially if the terrain isn’t rugged and leveled.

But you’re starting with the assertion that S/D thieves are “a problem”. Your very first sentence says
“I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved”.
I disagree that S/D thieves are a “problem”. All the forum support in the world that you can drum up isn’t going to convince me otherwise, because I’ve been playing S/D long enough to know that while the spec is strong, it isn’t broken.

They have a playstyle that people don’t like. Tough kitten, they’ll get used to it. I don’t like dealing with a mesmer’s constant escapes, but I’m not going to come crying to the boards and claim its OP and whine for nerfs just because I don’t like it

Illidan.6802:

As a thief, tell you that Withdraw is not a stun break. D/P has access to stealth on demand as its defensive mechanic, not even mention Black Powder. What does S/D thief have? Evasion, and on demand escaping when something when wrong. S/D dps is lower than D/P. Also, it is not like sword 2 does not cost initiatives. It is 5 for total an attack and return. The counter can position him/herself close to the Return circle to take advantage of his/her cc. On the other hand, the S/D thief doesn’t need additional buff in return, but should be toned down in accessing to vigor. It is not like we take away all the evade from the thief, but limit in some ways so that, at least, other play can land some attacks. It also make the S/D thief utilize his/her dodges better instead of just spamming them.

Right – my point is, a LOT of s/d thieves spam dodges just for giggles, and SHOULD be punished for it. In my opinion it just dumbs down the game play. I know GW2 isn’t the most complex game to play, but I respect people who really do try to time their dodges and watch the actions of the other guy. Being able to chain spam 8+ consecutive dodges just seems silly to me. In my opinion, stealth does not compare because you CAN die through stealth, you can’t die through dodges and evades.

evilapprentice.6379:

Amaterasu.6280:

ensoriki.5789:

I don’t think you’ve fully thought this out Kuro. You were suggesting 600 range before

Dropping the range of the two is basically going to put S/P and S/D in a constant nuke range. S/P having a wind up evade self root evade skill with our base stats and armor not encouraging that. Without the inherit stealth option as a counter measure to range fire, a ranger’s pretty much just going to keep pressing 1 on you, even the options for LoS get significantly reduced dropping SR’s range.
Prior to the april update the same held true for S/D. Flanking stab always followed flanking strike so the tell for damage was incredibly clear which meant timing was crucial (but at the time you were rewarded fairly poorly for landing that stab relative to the ease of avoiding it).

If I get shot whatever but the clearest change is to keep the new tracking and fuse the 3 back into a single skill instead of a chain.

With Shadow return being locked down while CC’d you you make it quite easy to punish main hand sword. In fact Rune’s of Nightmare which go through evade is going to set you up to get spiked to hell and back. Which would be fine if the options for stability became something more than dagger storm, but I don’t think that will happen.

I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved. And sword #2 is one of the biggest problems. I can care less for FS + LS because you can still kill through that but sword #2’s spammable engage at 0-600r and disengage at 1200r is probably mainly responsible for the complaints about how no one can kill a s/d thief. When the 8+ dodges can’t save you, you always have the 1200r disengage…

Or they could just make it so that you can ONLY use sword #2 at 600r with a target so that if you do use it and disengage, you still can, but at least you won’t be popping sword 2 first from way outside the point, go in to the point and pop return whenever something goes wrong.

Shadow return not working while cc’d could honestly be a reasonable change…you still have a million dodges to work with during the fight. I’m sure we’ve all fought enough s/d thieves to realize that their dodges are just as important to sword #2 when it comes to the inability to kill them. We’re trying to just handicap 1 of those ways. I personally thought the patch which made sword #2 “not” a stunbreak is absolutely silly…it IS pretty much a stunbreak anytime you can teleport back at 1200r. No one is going to be catch you at that range before the cc is up unless they teleport to you.

Now I’m not going to lie, shadowstep pathing is still kittenty since they last tried to fix it, so sword #2 isn’t 100% safe, but it’s very much a 90% successful guaranteed disengage especially if the terrain isn’t rugged and leveled.

But you’re starting with the assertion that S/D thieves are “a problem”. Your very first sentence says
“I don’t know man, I’m just throwing out ideas as to how I think the problems with S/D thieves could be resolved”.
I disagree that S/D thieves are a “problem”. All the forum support in the world that you can drum up isn’t going to convince me otherwise, because I’ve been playing S/D long enough to know that while the spec is strong, it isn’t broken.

They have a playstyle that people don’t like. Tough kitten, they’ll get used to it. I don’t like dealing with a mesmer’s constant escapes, but I’m not going to come crying to the boards and claim its OP and whine for nerfs just because I don’t like it

I’m not going to defend my points any further and stray this thread away to a pointless argument.

Again, if you feel that it’s just a matter of L2P when literally EVERYONE is saying that s/d thieves are OP right now INCLUDING thieves, then I don’t know what to say.

Did you feel the same vs triple cantrip bunker eles pre-nerf? Just tough kitten , get used to it?

How about the current state of necros? I guess it’s just a l2p issue too and we should just get used to the playstyle?

A problem is a problem, and I’m not going to sit back on it just because I play the class.

Amaterasu.6280:

Illidan.6802:

As a thief, tell you that Withdraw is not a stun break. D/P has access to stealth on demand as its defensive mechanic, not even mention Black Powder. What does S/D thief have? Evasion, and on demand escaping when something when wrong. S/D dps is lower than D/P. Also, it is not like sword 2 does not cost initiatives. It is 5 for total an attack and return. The counter can position him/herself close to the Return circle to take advantage of his/her cc. On the other hand, the S/D thief doesn’t need additional buff in return, but should be toned down in accessing to vigor. It is not like we take away all the evade from the thief, but limit in some ways so that, at least, other play can land some attacks. It also make the S/D thief utilize his/her dodges better instead of just spamming them.

Right – my point is, a LOT of s/d thieves spam dodges just for giggles, and SHOULD be punished for it. In my opinion it just dumbs down the game play. I know GW2 isn’t the most complex game to play, but I respect people who really do try to time their dodges and watch the actions of the other guy. Being able to chain spam 8+ consecutive dodges just seems silly to me. In my opinion, stealth does not compare because you CAN die through stealth, you can’t die through dodges and evades.

They ARE punished for it. A thief putting 30 points in Acro, and slotting SoA and Energy Sigil is making CHOICES – that’s a utility slot, 30 points of a 70 point spec, and weapon sigil slot All dedicated to dodging. All those choices dedicated to dodging subtract something from the thief, whether it be Burst potential, DPS in general, or team utility.

If they dodge 8 times in a row just “for giggles”, they are not effectively playing their spec – the spec that they sacrificed so much else to run. What don’t you get about that? How can you possibly not get that after playing a thief for 3500 matches?