Guild Wars 2

At the moment everyone and their mother knows that necros are broken. Their strength has gone up so much that everyone now believes that a necro is necessary on a team to be competitive.

To me this isn’t THAT bad of a thing. It sucks for the moment, but it’s kinda nice to see a couple of necros out there. Alright, there’s more than a couple. Even still, their place as the flavor of the month means that it’s pretty easy to dissect why they’re overused and what a-net’s balancing team can do about it.

And for the record, the entire goal of nerfing the necromancer is to keep them in the meta without the meta being dictated by necros. When a class becomes so strong that an entire team must change their builds, playstyles and comp for a single player in a teamfighting role then something must be done. In my eyes necros have taken a spot that the condi engi previously held. They’re roaming condition teamfighters that destroy everything when left alone and given enough time. They control a fight through condition swaps, boon hate, crowd control and sheer damage. Again, that’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just bad right now because they were overbuffed.

So onto the suggestions.

1: Remove the extra condition damage portion on terror OR have it deal max damage by default but reduced damage per condition on the target.
Terror is a lot of the source of problems people have with necros. Fear is a very strong and lengthy CC already and it’s also the only CC that stacks in duration. What becomes a problem is that when a target has a large number of conditions on them they’re already fighting for their life. If a necro gets a dhuumfire proc, mark of blood and chilblains on someone then it’s either they get themselves cleansed, run away or die to the next set of attacks. Fear makes this next to impossible. This isn’t terrible on its own, but with terror fear now ticks for 1k+ damage per second. This is simply over the top.

2. Remove ALL deathshroud on death (not downed).
This is a big one and IMO a nerf that’s less about nerfing and more about forcing a particular playstyle that I believe was intended in the first place. If a smart necro gets caught and simply knows that he’s going to die then he’ll just die without going into deathshroud to save it for the next respawn. He then can go into a fight with a large amount of deathshroud and a large amount of damage. At the moment in the standard dhuumfire terror set of specs, life force is a must-have to deal the substantial amount of damage available to you. The thing is though is that that particular spec does not gain very much life force at all and it’s even harder to maintain it under focus fire.
Should this change end up going through, life force management would be difficult but not impossible and bring necros into a suitable position to actually bring about more changes if they’re necessary, buffs or nerfs. However, until this change goes through deathshroud is simply a failed mechanic used as a second healthbar only on occasions and is more protected than their actual health bar simply because deathshroud is a huge source of damage for the necromancer and it’s smarter to die than to not have deathshroud now or later.

So thoughts? Comments? L2P-noob-necros-aren’t-OP-L2TPVP?

As a necro who plays the class since beta 2, i would say all they need to do is remove the burning trait. And about that stuff about life force the kitten you about dude necros are super easy to tunnel vision already and you want to nerf their only dmg soak.

Btw i know this would bring tears but terror is actually bugged its not doing 2x dmg when ppl are moving. And they somehow broken wells/wall/marks ( if you interrupt them while casting they go on full cd)

I agree, it is a combination of things are put necros over the top at the moment.

1) Dhuumfire + Terror on top of being able to put out pretty much every condi in the game in a matter of 2 seconds is what’s putting necros over the top right now. You put all that condi damage on someone then fear them, and there is very little that most classes can do. Even if you stunbreak out of the fear, you’re left with 3-5 more condis to clear. Aside from the very few stunbreaks from the game that actually clear multiple condis (like contemplation of purity on a guardian), chances are you would be using 2/3 utilities just to clear the initial swarm of condis on you. Mind you, let’s not forget the buff to weakness which most necros have 2-3 ways of accessing. A zerker dps class is arguably the best way to kill the new meta necros, but even so, you have to deal with weakness on DS, enfeebling blood, and spite signet. There 3 conditions that a necro can get access to easily which are game changing – weakness, fear (with terror) + burning. To sum it up – at the moment there are too many ways for a necro to deal with other classes, but little for other classes to deal with necros.

2) Fear walls…you get a 2k+ fear EVERY time. No you cannot just walk around it because everyone know you can just stagger your steps back and forth and you’ll be protected for the entire duration while being able to dish out damage safely. That along with the proc that it gives…is just too much. To be honest it wouldn’t be such a big deal if it didn’t work with the Terror trait, but it does, and it is arguably the most OP utility at the moment. You get great defense AND offense. Line of warding doesn’t even come close…LoW is nothing more than a distraction…it doesn’t give you proc nor does it give out 2k+ fears on every crossing. Sure we’ve all heard the argument of waiting around for 5s before engaging again, but that is NOT an option. Any class (especially melee) can easily melt within 5s because a good necro will run a train on you in the meantime. Stability is great, but there is not enough access to stability amongst classes…we can see proof of this because it’s forcing certain classes to use Lyssa runes strictly to deal with necros with stability (and the full condi clear of course)

3) The above wouldn’t be much of a problem, but with the flaw of the game design there is no stat that is equivalent to toughness for condition damage. You can argue and say vitality is…but I beg to differ. This is a BIG deal. Condi builds allow you to invest in condition dmg (a stat that is already designed to be above physical damage as there is no counter stat) AND toughness, being able to put out the maximum amount of condi dmg while being tanky. Best of both worlds. However, when a physical damage class/build wants to put out their potential damage, they WILL have to sacrifice close to all their survivability…this is a fact, not a myth. If you are using a hybrid build, you are not putting out the most dmg.

Just remove burning and give necro the sustain that it needed and asked for in the first place. Honestly I don’t think necro should be the condi bomber that it has become now, that’s an enginner’s job. Necro should be an attrition class that can’t burst you, can’t run from you, but makes up for it in bulk and presence via sheer tankiness and utility. What we have now is far from what necromancer was supposed to be…

No offense to the OP, but I would hate these changes. I have little to no life force generation as it is, changing this might as well remove the class mechanic altogether.

But I have no issue with removing burning and the trait that increases fear duration. Terror is a cool trait and I don’t want it changed but when you can have 4-5 fears go off – depending on a build – for 2 seconds each, it’s too much.

I think they got some of the things right with the Necro buffs, especially that getting close to a necro is tough to get away from and a powerful foe once engaged. But they need to scale back the damage and scale up the survivability (which is what most of us wanted in the first place).

Sorry Ostrich but I have to disagree with you on a couple things. I do agree necro’s need some tweaking so this isn’t a don’t nerf them response, it’s a do it properly response.

So here’s the thing:
1) Terror hasn’t changed much. Very little in fact. The problem isn’t terror in itself because necro’s always had access to this with the same durations as before. The .5 second buff to doom doesn’t give another tick to a terror necro so it remains unchanged.

2) Torment. Great addition to the class, viable utility (the immob is awesome) and a little extra damage and another condition to prevent bleeds from getting insta-wiped. A great addition to the class and what was needed.

3) Burning. The addition of both Torment and burning is where the problem lies. You now have two additional condi’s to prevent easy clearing and you now have access to the one of the highest damage conditions in the game, and at a fairly consistent interval due to it being in the condition duration line. This is where the problem lies. Now I will say a burning necro is a glass cannon and I think this offsets that some but it’s still too easily available and lasts too long.

The solution here is to nerf burning. Terror was around before and has remain unchanged. The problem is coupled with a very high uptime on burning people view it as OP now when it’s the access to burning that is the problem. I don’t think that necros shouldn’t have ANY access to burning, but it should be brought down on how often and how easily they can apply it.

Pre-patch necros wanted a way to stay in the fight, a way to disengage and a way to not have bleeds stripped off instantly as this was the major problem with the class. What we got instead was 2 more conditions that are easy to apply and do significant damage coupled with the same amount of CC (fear) they used to have.

I have to completely disagree with your assessment of DS. What the class needs is the ability to use our class mechanic to stay in a fight and/or engage/disengage. Torment helped in the engage department but necros still have no way to get out of a fight. We are the ONLY class that doesn’t have instant access to our sole class mechanic. Many necro’s have fought for a way to have lifeforce at the start of a match in order to allow us to use our mechanic at the beginning of a match when the most crucial team fight occurs. Nerfing DS in anyway completely nerfs every build a necro can run.

Necros’ want more sustainability. We need to be able to stay in a fight and have some way to survive focus fire. We have very limited stun breaks and that is the biggest counter to a necro.

My solution to the class is to nerf burning (or take it away completely, I honestly wouldn’t care) and give necros more of a way to stay in the pocket. As the defined “attrition class” that means the longer a necro is in a fight, the more the fight should swing in the favor of the necro. Right now it simply isn’t that way. It’s either blow everything and melt your opponent (which is happening) or get blown up (not happening much anymore as the meta has moved away from power burst).

Nerfing DS would be a huge mistake in my opinion and gut the class. Nerf the condi spike, buff the sustainability/survivability and necro’s would be in a perfect spot.

I agree with necro being completely over the top right now.. but I don’t think the devs are as keen on whack-a-moling the class they just brought up so much…..

2. Remove ALL deathshroud on death (not downed).

I think this is actually very important…. no other class is allowed to retain any progress.. why should the necro?… DS generation is important and if you get lucky enough to handspam some poor guy off point you shouldn’t be rewarded for it all match even after dieing a couple of times..

Other then that.. necro isn’t extremely strong in 1v1… but in a team fight ….hmmmm.. probably a lot better then most professions.

I think you’re right about the fact that no class should be able to significantly shift the meta..

Everyone and their mom is running melandru and any form of condi removal they can get their hands on now, everyone.. even necros, I think that’s pretty ridiculous..

@ OE’s #2 – I don’t think this is going to have the effect you’re looking for. The current FOTM builds don’t rely as heavily on DS as other builds that might rely on it to sustain themselves for the purposes of, say, bunkering a point. If a Necro loses all LF on death, then when a bunker Necro is unseated from a point, he’ll be coming back to said point essentially defenseless, unlike other classes who could return to the point with everything on full recharge.

As well, the reason to “save it for later rather than use it now” is because once a train starts on the Necro there are only two outcomes, a.) they get saved by their team, b.) they die painfully and respawn. DS in those instances is merely prolonging the inevitable. A lack of disengages is likely always going to be an issue for Necros given their intended design, so their potency within a stationary fight is meant to make up for this.

As is, a Necro starts every match with 0 LF anyways, and if a team is conscientious of this they can deny a Necro any meaningful amount of LF anyways. Removing LF on death would not only make this easier to achieve but make it a viable strategy for hard countering the class. Result: Necro goes back to the bench and insert next FOTM.

As far as Terror is concerned, I’ve always felt that having the damage cycle start on the 0 count was a bit OP. Specially now that Doom’s Fear is over two seconds when only investing 30 points in Spite and the target is within 600 units. 3x Terror ticks within 2 seconds, a chance to proc Burning (this happens a lot if they’ve invested 15 points into curses for the minor trait that grants Fury when entering DS), and 2sec of control is an awful lot to have on a single skill. I’d say the range should be reduced to 300 units and/or remove the damage tick on the zero count and begin the damage cycle after the first full second has passed. This would offer essentially a 33% reduced damage on the skill as well as offer some counter play in allowing a full second to break the Fear before taking the damage.

Kryshade.6075:

SNIP

Necros need that access to burning. It’s the combination of the damaging CC AND the burning that destroys people. I throw this example out a lot, but think of it from the perspective of a d/p thief vs a necro. If a necro lands a mark of blood without doomfire, the thief doesn’t give a kitten. But the second dhuumfire procs the thief is in very serious trouble and has to play defensively.

The amount of damage that burning puts out isn’t over the top and the way it’s applied is not in any way intrusive to what the necromancer does per usual. Without the burning terror would be far weaker, but without terror burning would not be weak in the slightest.

My picture of what a necromancer should be is a class that is less mobile than most but a must-focus target once they get the ball rolling with their life-force. It gives them a unique roll and actually forces them to use their class mechanic as it should be played instead of literally sacrificing their own health to protect it. While the changes I suggested may nerf other specs, let’s be perfectly honest and say that no other specs are worth running right now for the simple reason that the dhuumfire/terror combination is simply too strong right now. Other specs clearly need a buff, but to actually buff them this mechanic and spec need to be changed as well.

Also, if given the ability to disengage, necros would be even more overpowered than they are right now. Plus it seems like the developers want engis to take that spot with things like rocket boots and slick shoes. However a very large majority of builds that increase moiblity substantially for engineers comes at the cost of a HUGE amount of survivability just for the fact that they use kits. If there was a mobility mechanic tied to death shroud then necros would just be too strong.

Also, necros are very survivable IMO. At least compared to engis, the class that held the same role previously, necros are gods among men by comparison. The amount of damage they can dish out for how survivable they are is impossible to achieve by an engineer… While it may be one of their substantial weaknesses, it’s far stronger than anything else comparatively.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Also, necros are very survivable IMO. At least compared to engis, the class that held the same role previously, necros are gods among men by comparison. The amount of damage they can dish out for how survivable they are is impossible to achieve by an engineer… While it may be one of their substantial weaknesses, it’s far stronger than anything else comparatively.

wow, do you really feel that way? I have the exact opposite feeling about my Engi. He does everything my Necro can’t. i.e. escape, evade, and heal. I feel like my Engi can bring far more to a team fight in addition to the mad deeps, unlike my Necro who just brings a couple big nukes.

My skill/trait change suggestions:

Dhuumfire : 100% chance to inflict torment for 5 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only be triggered once every 1 second . Increase torment duration by 20%.

Terror : Fear have a 100% chance to cause torment for 5 sec.

Greater Marks : replaced by new trait : marks apply torment for 4 sec.

Staff Mastery : also makes mark unblockable

Soul Marks : also increase area of marks

Tainted Shackles : torment duration reduces to 6 sec.

Doom : now have 1/4 sec cast time (no longer can be cast while CC’ed)

Seikenz.4359:

My skill/trait change suggestions:

Dhuumfire : 100% chance to inflict torment for 5 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only be triggered once every 1 second . Increase torment duration by 20%.

Terror : Fear have a 100% chance to cause torment for 5 sec.

Greater Marks : replaced by new trait : marks apply torment for 4 sec.

Staff Mastery : also makes mark unblockable

Soul Marks : also increase area of marks

Tainted Shackles : torment duration reduces to 6 sec.

Doom : now have 1/4 sec cast time (no longer can be cast while CC’ed)

So you want crits to inflict 5seconds of Torment with a 1second cooldown? Really? Like the other classes that have Torment they should have ONE skill that inflicts it Your changes would be even worse.

4 Marks on the Staff, use all 4 that alone is 16seconds of Torment, Then you got The fear from The #5 Staff skill another 5 seconds of torment. Into DS Use the Torment skill(#5 i think) and even more Torment and then stack as much Pres as possible and oh look even more Torment from crits. By then you will have several marks ready again and release even more torment….

It is difficult to point to one ability and say that is why Necromancer has suddenly become dominant so we nerf it since we got so many new and very strong abilities.

(The survivability issue comes down to Necro running Carrion and scaling with vitality through Lifeforce, something Engineer would never be able to. It is required, since we lack Engineer’s blocks, stealth, combo field heals, …)

1. Dhuumfire – as mentioned above, if it procs your damage goes through the roof. It needs to be adjusted in terms of damage, chance to be applied or simply be removed.
Burning is too essential across all classes for condition builds.

2. Fear (Terror) – is the core of most Necromancer’s playstyle, but it is very strong because we lack DR’s in this game. We should not be able to chain 3 or more fears without repercussions. ICD on Terror would be a way to avoid chaining fears solely offensively.

3. Death Shroud – Torment was a nice addition to the set, but it doesn’t make sense we can apply DS#5 then leave DS and still get the immobalize trigger.
The channel should cancel when we leave DS like with DS#4.

(future) 4. Life Force generation – consider how we trait fully offensively without what we deemed fundamentally important before the patch and think about the announcement we’ll get more life force generation from our weaponsets.

Necromancer is problematic, because the developers have a different idea of how it ought to perform than the way the players prefer to build for SPvP.
When a more reliable and mobile build appears that equals the Necromancer’s condition damage, the Necromancer will always disappear from the Meta.

!!! In my opinion, Necromancer should counter condition teams and boon stacking, while being weak to burst and crowd control. We should receive more tools to return or spread condition pressure and turn boons on opponent as a form of staying power. Arriving slower to the fight and being weak in skirmishes against burst comps, but turning the tide against bunkers and grouped up players.

Ostricheggs.3742:

My picture of what a necromancer should be is a class that is less mobile than most but a must-focus target once they get the ball rolling with their life-force. It gives them a unique roll and actually forces them to use their class mechanic as it should be played instead of literally sacrificing their own health to protect it. While the changes I suggested may nerf other specs, let’s be perfectly honest and say that no other specs are worth running right now for the simple reason that the dhuumfire/terror combination is simply too strong right now. Other specs clearly need a buff, but to actually buff them this mechanic and spec need to be changed as well.

It sounds like these changes would force people into a 30/30/10 spec instead of changing Dhuumfire which encourages different builds.

Roe.3679:

Ostricheggs.3742:

My picture of what a necromancer should be is a class that is less mobile than most but a must-focus target once they get the ball rolling with their life-force. It gives them a unique roll and actually forces them to use their class mechanic as it should be played instead of literally sacrificing their own health to protect it. While the changes I suggested may nerf other specs, let’s be perfectly honest and say that no other specs are worth running right now for the simple reason that the dhuumfire/terror combination is simply too strong right now. Other specs clearly need a buff, but to actually buff them this mechanic and spec need to be changed as well.

It sounds like these changes would force people into a 30/30/10 spec instead of changing Dhuumfire which encourages different builds.

There will always be one dominant spec/traitline for a particular role for a class. The idea is to create other dominant specs that fill other roles with other strengths and weaknesses. As it stands, other trait lines and weaponsets are very lackluster and no amount of nerfs to the dhuumfire/terror build will ever make necromancers be viable in other specs. Given the changes I recommend to death shroud it opens up the opportunity to create changes to traits in other trees based around deathshroud generation etc.

A lot of people misdiagnose dhuumfire as the main problem with necromancer’s dominance, but it couldn’t be farther from the case.

Unfortunately ostrich these changes would nerf the entire class and pigeon hole everyone into the current mindless condi spam FOTM. I can see that you put time and thought in, but there are a few intricacies of necro that would be hurt extremely badly by these suggestions.

1: necro DOES not need burning, our forte before this trait was condi control through transfers, boon hate, and application. Now we condi spam. Overall giving the class with the most access to condi the strongest one of all was a poor choice. It forces other classes like engi and ranger out the condi meta and discourages diversity. And your example of thief vs necro proves the point on burning, landing one RNG proc allows a previously competitive back and forth fight to become a cake walk for the necro and requires 0 skill. Bleed stacking, positioning, condi covering, and clutch fears to peel thieves burst was our option before. Burning should go as before patch no one feared terror and it could actually allow a necro to plan a well timed terror burst to finish off a target, not RNG spam to win. If you remember pre-terror necros only source of pressure damage came through bleed stacks, if you nerf terror dhuum fire becomes mandatory. Burning kills meta diversity and necro build diversity and as everyone has noticed, is over the top.

2: DS is our defense, not the primary source of offense as OP suggests. Does it now have access to some condi dmg? Yes, which is awesome it sorely lacked it. And you overstate how easy it is to generate compared to other class mechanics (clone spam, guardian virtues, ranger pets, tool belt, steal, attune swap are all 100% rdy start of fight unlike DS). Your proposition keeps our unasked for dmg buffs and then hard nerfs our control and sustain, two things without which we would once again be meta trash. DS has our reposition (dark path), best single target self peel (doom), new cover condi (shackles), and the only way for power builds to manage sustained dmg without completely abandoning positioning (life blast). Only when played well does it allow for a “good” source of damage, you’d be surprised how poorly so many necros utilize it and removing it on death would hike up the alrdy (pre-patch) high learning curve and kill low LF generating builds only survive. This change would force running a stun break where before good necros could utilize DS and take all damage utilities.

I think it is awesome that the community has cooled off and is pushing for a better necro. OP does not contain the answers we need, and hopefully Anet treads carefully as opposed to their “run for hills” mentality with necro nerfs that put us so behind from beta to launch. I don’t think the majority of the community paid enough attention to necro pre patch to have any clue what should or shouldn’t be done to necro, hopefully Anet did. #believeinkarl

Just so I’m not just trashing other ideas here are my quick fix trait changes.

Remove dhuumfire

Move weakness on crit to spite GM and add a 5% LF gain when critically struck with a 20 second ICD

Replace the above trait in curses with “Tormented Steps”: 33% chance to gain 1 stack of torment for 10 seconds on application of bleeds (5 second ICD).

Set a profession wide priority for boon strip with stability in the fifth slot. Silly that S/D thieves will always rip stab first but some well timed necro corrupts will fail to stop stability stomps.

These changes would give power a trait for a sustain option, keep terror viable and remove the build that made its use appear OP, give necro a steady source of a cover condi for a GM trait, and heal the over saturation of condi in the meta and promote comp diversity.

A full death shroud drain upon death won’t be very healthy for the game. Necros are the #1 focused target right now, beating even warriors in priority simply because warriors do nothing while alive. If the Necro’s damage is getting nerfed, then their survivability must be kept the same as now or improved.

Right now Necros depend on their high damage to survive, just like any other glass cannon build. By nerfing their damage only and making no adjustments to their survivability, ArenaNet would be treading the same path as what they did to warriors, which took over 6 months to begin fixing, and they still haven’t been fixed yet.

The thing about necro is it can bomb a midfight due to the sheer size of marks and wells + it can do this from a long ways away allowing relatively safe positioning.

An engineer’s bombs have a smaller radius even when traited and require them to be dropped at your own feat. Grenades can be blocked, don’t pass through sanctuary, have a smaller radius, and trigger retaliation.

A ranger has access to traps which have a smaller radius and when traited are 600 range.

If you want to fix necros you have to tone down their damage so that they don’t wipe a team in rapid succession. But if you tone down the damage enough people won’t be willing to run a class with lower mobility and survivability. It would be very difficult to fix the necromancer because just like warrior it requires adjustments to multiple aspects. Survivability and damage.

I don’t think the OP is unbiased, he’s not wrong tho. But imo dhuumfire is what they should nerf (or better, remove totally), terror is fine. Again a terror/fear nerf will pretty much destroy every possible option for a condi necro. I’m quite sure they are going to overnerf the class with next patch anyway. The main problem with necros imo is the aoe, they can apply conditions and other stuff aoe way too easily. That’s why weapons like necro staff are poorly designed.

Ostricheggs.3742:

There will always be one dominant spec/traitline for a particular role for a class.

Yea sure, that sounds like “i know a terror nerf will force every condi necro and his dog into a single spec, but since i don’t play the class i don’t really care”. You don’t seem unbiased at all, sry.

Fjandi.2516:

Yea sure, that sounds like “i know a terror nerf will force every condi necro and his dog into a single spec, but since i don’t play the class i don’t really care”. You don’t seem unbiased at all, sry.

Agreed. I don’t care if Necros are a burst condi class, in fact I really don’t think that’s the role they should play at all. But if you nerf Terror you push a Necro into a more boring playstyle with a cookie cutter build.

reedju.5786:

Just so I’m not just trashing other ideas here are my quick fix trait changes.

Remove dhuumfire

Move weakness on crit to spite GM and add a 5% LF gain when critically struck with a 20 second ICD

Replace the above trait in curses with “Tormented Steps”: 33% chance to gain 1 stack of torment for 10 seconds on application of bleeds (5 second ICD).

Set a profession wide priority for boon strip with stability in the fifth slot. Silly that S/D thieves will always rip stab first but some well timed necro corrupts will fail to stop stability stomps.

These changes would give power a trait for a sustain option, keep terror viable and remove the build that made its use appear OP, give necro a steady source of a cover condi for a GM trait, and heal the over saturation of condi in the meta and promote comp diversity.

Anyone can post their ideas about necro balance. This one, however, is the worst I’ve ever read.

Sugestions vol 2

Make Spite trait line less(or not useful at all ) attractive for condi necro ,example:
dhuumfire : replace by soul siphon : weapon skill heal you for X when generate LF ( nice sustain for power necro).
Terror : cause torment for 5 sec
Doom : cant be casted while CC’ed

A necromancer without dhuumfire would be seriously underpowered again without substantial changes and buffs. Terror does far less overall damage and simply makes dhuumfire more potent because the amount of damage done over a short fear duration is easily considered burst.

Mark my words, the old-fashioned soul-reaping/terror builds will not be viable even if all the changes are kept. The proc on dhuumfire is a necessity to keep necromancers viable. What pushes them over the top are terror fear bombs coupled with the simple lack of care for life force.

Despite my suggested changes to life force being a nerf to all necromancer builds it opens up the opportunity to buff them as well. It’s very easy to add a master or grandmaster trait up one of the unused trees that alleviates deathshroud management. It can also be used to buff unused weapon sets (I’m looking at you, axe)

Your changes show a lack of understanding of the class. DS generation should be higher not lower.

Terror should not be changed too. It isnt even close to OP.

The problem is burning. For engis and necros. Heck even for eles. Nerf burning and it all goes away.

Your changes would pigeon hole necros into no skill spammers who just spam to proc burning.

If nerfing burning isnt possible then I would reduce the necro and engi trait for bunring to 2/3 seconds or make it 4 seconds every 15 seconds.

I would like to see small changes to bring the necro down a bit.

To everyone suggesting Doom not be usable if the Necro is stunned.

This makes Necros completely defenseless to thieves with basilisk venom.
We can spend 1 stun-break on the venom, but then we’ll be feared for 3 seconds, because of steal, with ZERO ways to avoid HS spam.

About necro been as survivable as engi if focused, I’m sorry but this is not what I see all the time. My engi is way harder to take down by multiple opponents. I even saw in Tpvp a engi build hold 2 of us almost indefinitely by evading, healing, blocking almost non stop. You can be a really good tank if you know how to time your cooldowns.

On a necro, if you got 0 Lifeforce, you’re dead in 10 sec top if you’re focused. If you have Lifeforce, you still lose access to all healing/skills while in it, so you are really predictable. And it melt like butter to a hot knife if more than one enemy is hitting you. We’re not the attrition class we’re supposed to be, by far.

Dhuumfire should jump into Withering Precision place its useless trait atm and all condi duration will be reduce by 30%(Spite line bonus) also people need choose between burning condition(burst) and longer bleed/cripple(sustain) from scepter.

Kiriakulos.1690:

To everyone suggesting Doom not be usable if the Necro is stunned.

This makes Necros completely defenseless to thieves with basilisk venom.
We can spend 1 stun-break on the venom, but then we’ll be feared for 3 seconds, because of steal, with ZERO ways to avoid HS spam.

There are multiple ways to apply weakness on a necro…as a thief I can guarantee you that it’s VERY strong as a dps class denial. We HAVE to clense it before going back to fight or we’ll be wasting all our initiative only to tickle you…spamming 10 heartseekers won’t kill, especially since they decided to up the glancing blows rate up to 50% from 25%…the new weakness is a extremely good tool now for melee denial.

The deathshroud aspect that you explain in #2 needs to be reworked. Very difficult to take down a necro with lifeforce with the current meta necro build.

I don’t understand all the recent necro QQ. Necros have been buffed yes, but other classes have been buffed as well specifically to deal with condition spam.

As a warrior I find it fairly easy to deal with necros. Granted I am built for anti-condi, but I was built in this manner even before the recent patches because condi was very powerful back then as it is now.

Pre-patch it was impossible to win as glass cannon vs. high condi builds. Post-patch, the inclusion of berserker stance changes has made things balanced.

Btw, fear is a condition. As far as I know the game does not classify it as a stun. Stuns and other hard CCs generally have a grey icon while fear and other conditions have a red icon.

Ostricheggs.3742:

A necromancer without dhuumfire would be seriously underpowered again without substantial changes and buffs. Terror does far less overall damage and simply makes dhuumfire more potent because the amount of damage done over a short fear duration is easily considered burst.

Mark my words, the old-fashioned soul-reaping/terror builds will not be viable even if all the changes are kept. The proc on dhuumfire is a necessity to keep necromancers viable. What pushes them over the top are terror fear bombs coupled with the simple lack of care for life force.

Despite my suggested changes to life force being a nerf to all necromancer builds it opens up the opportunity to buff them as well. It’s very easy to add a master or grandmaster trait up one of the unused trees that alleviates deathshroud management. It can also be used to buff unused weapon sets (I’m looking at you, axe)

We were never underpowered to begin with, we were quite viable prepatch. However ages ago I made suggestions on how to fix Necromancer without breaking them, to fix them in the ways they should have been.

Many people say that I am biased towards powermancers, but below is a massive nerf to the Terrormancer build I created and use in tournaments, and a buff to Minionmancers which I absolutely hate. So I am not biased.

TheMightyAltroll.3485

• Remove Fear from Spectral Wall

• Add Torment (6s) to Spectral Wall

• Remove “Dhuumfire”

• Add “Strength of the Underworld” to Grandmaster Spite tree.
  Strength of the Underworld
  Wells last 50% longer

• Make Greater Marks default on Staff

• Move Staff Mastery to replace Greater Marks

• Move “Death Nova” down to Master Traits

• Add “Vengeful Servants” to Grandmaster Death Magic tree
  Vengeful Servants
  When a Minion dies, you receive Fury(5s) and Vigor(5s) (Does not apply to Jagged horrors)

• Change “Vampiric Precision” to heal yourself for 20% of the damage you inflict from Critical Hits

• Move “Vampiric Precision” to Grandmaster Blood Magic tree

• Move “Vampiric Rituals” to Master Blood Magic tree.

• Move “Terror” to Grandmaster tree.

• Move “Withering Precision” to Master tree.

• Move “Target the Weak” to Grandmaster Spite trait

• Remove “Siphoned Power”

• Move “Furious Demise” to Minor Curses trait

• Move “Barbed Precision” to Master Curses Trait

• Increase bleed duration on “Barbed Precision” bleeds by 100%

• Add new trait “Myopathy” to Grandmaster Curses trait to replace “Target the Weak”
  Myopathy
  Apply 2 seconds of Immobilize and vulnerability when you apply Weakness (10 second CD)

• Remove trait “Reanimator”

• Move “Ritual of Protection” to replace “Reanimator” (Only applies protection once per well)

• Add new trait “Summoner” in Master Traits
  Summoner
  Summon 2 Jagged Horrors when you use a healing skill in combat. Capped at a maximum of 5 Jagged Horrors. (Remove the constant negative health effects from Jagged Horrors)

• Remove trait “Strength of Undeath”

• Add trait “Specter” to replace “Strength of Undeath”
  Specter
  You regenerate 50% of your life force when out of combat.

Above is a nerf to the OP Terrormancer you see lately, and a buff to lesser used builds, also a buff to make Vampires viable. Numerous fixes to crappy traits too.

Nerf burning overall by like 33%.

Deathshroud

I think they need to change they way it works completley, a necromancer with 100% lf is op a necro with none is dead its pretty much that simple.

I like the theory of popping in out and out of deathshroud and using what ever abilities are needed instead of staying in deathshroud forever and i think this is their intent but it just doesnt work they way it should.

This is me just thinking out loud and not putting any in depth thinking about the numbers..

make necros start with 100% lf
and double the current amount of lf gain

BUT
have it decay in and out of combat and in and out of death shroud.

So this would stop people just using their ds as a second life force bar and sitting in it( which they shouldnt be doing anyway)

And would promote the use of ds for short sharp bursts, and would remove the 100% lf =op necro and the no life force = dead necro( maybe the decay can stop at 30% or maybe not)

This allows for quick lf generation but doesnt let you just sit there with 100% lf.

The numbers just suggest the idea dont go crazy about the numbers.

Seikenz.4359:

My skill/trait change suggestions:

Dhuumfire : 100% chance to inflict torment for 5 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only be triggered once every 1 second . Increase torment duration by 20%.

Terror : Fear have a 100% chance to cause torment for 5 sec.

Greater Marks : replaced by new trait : marks apply torment for 4 sec.

Staff Mastery : also makes mark unblockable

Soul Marks : also increase area of marks

Tainted Shackles : torment duration reduces to 6 sec.

Doom : now have 1/4 sec cast time (no longer can be cast while CC’ed)

You’ve gone from one OP corner to another OP corner.

@Ostricheggs

I don’t think what you suggest for Deathshroud would have the effect you think it would. Instead of dealing with conditions directly, you’re attacking their survivability which I think is just weird. It’s not like you’re going to pounce on them as soon as they rez if their team is good.

Braunijs.1596:

As a necro who plays the class since beta 2, i would say all they need to do is remove the burning trait.

So simple… isn’t it

Amaterasu.6280:

I agree, it is a combination of things are put necros over the top at the moment.

1) To sum it up – at the moment there are too many ways for a necro to deal with other classes, but little for other classes to deal with necros.

Wrong. Throw a good Stun Warrior at a Necro and they won’t be able to do anything.

Amaterasu.6280:

3) The above wouldn’t be much of a problem, but with the flaw of the game design there is no stat that is equivalent to toughness for condition damage. You can argue and say vitality is…but I beg to differ. This is a BIG deal. Condi builds allow you to invest in condition dmg (a stat that is already designed to be above physical damage as there is no counter stat) AND toughness, being able to put out the maximum amount of condi dmg while being tanky. Best of both worlds. However, when a physical damage class/build wants to put out their potential damage, they WILL have to sacrifice close to all their survivability…this is a fact, not a myth. If you are using a hybrid build, you are not putting out the most dmg.

I get what you’re saying but right from the get-go conditions are meant to go through toughness and to be honest there really doesn’t need to be a stat to counter it because it has been built to work like this from the beginning. Like I’ve said many times (and quite a few people have echoed the sentiment), just make Regeneration effective against conditions and make Weakness or Protection effective against conditions and done.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Kryshade.6075:

SNIP

Necros need that access to burning. It’s the combination of the damaging CC AND the burning that destroys people. I throw this example out a lot, but think of it from the perspective of a d/p thief vs a necro. If a necro lands a mark of blood without doomfire, the thief doesn’t give a kitten. But the second dhuumfire procs the thief is in very serious trouble and has to play defensively.

The amount of damage that burning puts out isn’t over the top and the way it’s applied is not in any way intrusive to what the necromancer does per usual. Without the burning terror would be far weaker, but without terror burning would not be weak in the slightest.

My picture of what a necromancer should be is a class that is less mobile than most but a must-focus target once they get the ball rolling with their life-force. It gives them a unique roll and actually forces them to use their class mechanic as it should be played instead of literally sacrificing their own health to protect it. While the changes I suggested may nerf other specs, let’s be perfectly honest and say that no other specs are worth running right now for the simple reason that the dhuumfire/terror combination is simply too strong right now. Other specs clearly need a buff, but to actually buff them this mechanic and spec need to be changed as well.

Also, if given the ability to disengage, necros would be even more overpowered than they are right now. Plus it seems like the developers want engis to take that spot with things like rocket boots and slick shoes. However a very large majority of builds that increase moiblity substantially for engineers comes at the cost of a HUGE amount of survivability just for the fact that they use kits. If there was a mobility mechanic tied to death shroud then necros would just be too strong.

Also, necros are very survivable IMO. At least compared to engis, the class that held the same role previously, necros are gods among men by comparison. The amount of damage they can dish out for how survivable they are is impossible to achieve by an engineer… While it may be one of their substantial weaknesses, it’s far stronger than anything else comparatively.

The power of the Necro without Dhuumfire should not be underestimated. I’ve played a Necro without Dhuumfire and I still destroy people simply because of bleeds, torment and fear chain. And that’s not counting other condis that come into play like, Chill, poison, weakness and cripple, which end up covering the other powerful conditions. Even in a power build I can stack up to 13 stacks of bleed, the only problem is they last for just a few seconds.

You should understand that different builds call for different playstyles. Some builds use DS more than others and this condition build does not use DS unless the person wants to add more bleed stacks, chain fair or defend themselves. If Anet decides that they want to make DS more important then great but like I said, different builds call for varying degrees of DS uptime. My power build is literally, DS every chance I get while for some other people that isn’t the case.

A necro without burning just becomes a worse engineer again. Either nerf burning or nerf both the necro and engi burning traits.

A nerf to burning is the perfect solution. I agree with you Ostrich that necros need burning, but if you want to temper the class, then temper the thing that makes them too strong and thats how often and how long they can keep burning up.

Burning is why everyone is crying OP and while I agree it’s a combination of everything else with burning, none of the other buffs were ground breaking for the class.

Nerf the proc rate or the duration on burn and you solve the problem.

I’ll repeat what others have said because it bears a lot of weight and is very important to the class. If you nerf terror, you pigeon hole EVERY SINGLE NECRO in the game to run Dhuumfire.

Darnis.4056:

2. Remove ALL deathshroud on death (not downed).

I think this is actually very important…. no other class is allowed to retain any progress.. why should the necro?

I am sorry but this is just ignorant. What other classes die then are unable to use their class skill once they step onto the field?

On the burning issue, Necros need something other than bleed and poison as an offencive condition in regular rotation, if they are to be a debuff/DoT class. They are too low damage (poison is more a utility debuff than a DoT in any case) and too easy to purge at a fraction of their damage.

I was surprised at the 4 sec duration for Dhruumfire (sp?) when I saw it. Perhaps it should be dialed back a bit, either in duration (2-3 sec.) or likelihood to proc (to 50% or so on crit.)

If the terror trait is the problem move it to the grandmaster tier, giving it a small buff to compensate (It moved from the first to second tier of traits w/o modification if I remember correctly).

Allot of these posts seem to want to roll back the Necro to before the patch when we were faceroll bait for everyone else in PvP, but that is just not fair for dedicated Necro players.

I think right now most peoples cry OP as soon as they die at the hand of a necro now. I’ve main my necro since launch, and use in solo tPvP a 30/20/0/20 build using axe/focus dagger/warhorn, wells and Berserker amulet. No fear except DS #3, no Dhuumfire, no “cheese” to make them cry more. I handicap myself and have more fun doing it.

Yet every time I kill someone, they remind me by whisper or /m how OP necro are at the moment…. Somebody even told me that dagger #2 was crazy healing and OP.

I think a lot of (solo) tPvPer are bad/ignorant unfortunately, we were free kill/rare sight before so they dont know how to counter us/dont want to learn. This hate bandwagon needs to stop or we will be nerfed just for the sake of it.

Tenebrous.2451:

Darnis.4056:

2. Remove ALL deathshroud on death (not downed).

I think this is actually very important…. no other class is allowed to retain any progress.. why should the necro?

I am sorry but this is just ignorant. What other classes die then are unable to use their class skill once they step onto the field?

Warriors loses all adrenaline.

Zauric.2981:

Tenebrous.2451:

Darnis.4056:

2. Remove ALL deathshroud on death (not downed).

I think this is actually very important…. no other class is allowed to retain any progress.. why should the necro?

I am sorry but this is just ignorant. What other classes die then are unable to use their class skill once they step onto the field?

Warriors loses all adrenaline.

True enough though adrenaline is easier to gain than LF.

Kryshade.6075:

I’ll repeat what others have said because it bears a lot of weight and is very important to the class. If you nerf terror, you pigeon hole EVERY SINGLE NECRO in the game to run Dhuumfire.

Don’t repeat anything you don’t think by yourself.

if you nerf Dhuumfire, you pigeon hole EVERY SINGLE NECRO in the game to run Terror.

Tenebrous.2451:

Zauric.2981:

Tenebrous.2451:

Darnis.4056:

2. Remove ALL deathshroud on death (not downed).

I think this is actually very important…. no other class is allowed to retain any progress.. why should the necro?

I am sorry but this is just ignorant. What other classes die then are unable to use their class skill once they step onto the field?

Warriors loses all adrenaline.

True enough though adrenaline is easier to gain than LF.

Agreed, but it is the only similar mechanic in the game as far as I know.

Lordrosicky.5813:

A necro without burning just becomes a worse engineer again. Either nerf burning or nerf both the necro and engi burning traits.

Replace burning with Torment and you achieve the same effect only with less condis to cleanse.

Dirame.8521:

Lordrosicky.5813:

A necro without burning just becomes a worse engineer again. Either nerf burning or nerf both the necro and engi burning traits.

Replace burning with Torment and you achieve the same effect only with less condis to cleanse.

You’d need like 5 Stacks of torment for that.

vicious.5683:

Kryshade.6075:

I’ll repeat what others have said because it bears a lot of weight and is very important to the class. If you nerf terror, you pigeon hole EVERY SINGLE NECRO in the game to run Dhuumfire.

Don’t repeat anything you don’t think by yourself.

if you nerf Dhuumfire, you pigeon hole EVERY SINGLE NECRO in the game to run Terror.

That isn’t even slightly true. If you nerf Dhuumfire, power and hybrid builds can go back to close to death in the same slot which is generally the more powerful trait for them except for in 1v1 situations. And it won’t matter much for group PVe since tons of classes have burning already.

Still trying to figure out what was really wrong with necros to begin with (aside from the obvious lack of stability/stunbreaks). Since I made my necro I haven’t understood why so many people had issues with it pre-patch..never had any issues with it aside from the previously stated. Necromancers needed a way to peel, sustain, stability/stunbreaks..not burning and all the other mess. Where does burning fit into the lore of a necromancer? o.O

They’ve obviously become a huge issue, and with all the complaining I doubt they’ll be ignored for long. So I guess now we wait for adjustments right.