Guild Wars 2

For reference: My rating is 1890, I solo queue only.

Necro needs more sustain. It is terrible.

There are ways you can add sustain to the necromancer which should have been done long ago. Here are some suggestions:

0, Necros should start a pvp game with 30% death shroud (this one is important)

1, Consume conditions needs a shorter cast time. In a world of spammable instant cast interrupts, a 1.25s cast time is not fair.
Suggestion: Reduce cast time of consume conditions to 0.75s

2, Consume conditions needs a shorter cool down. The nerf to this from 25s to 30s was hated at the time and was never undone. Nobody will take master of corruption because it sucks. If you are worried about this then just nerf that trait which nobody will ever take.
Suggestion: Reduce cool down of consume conditions back to its 25s.

3, Base necromancer death shroud needs significant buffs to put it as a viable choice when compared to repear shroud. This has long been discussed on the necromancer forums.
Suggestions: Add 3 stacks of stability to tainted shackles.
Add poison to each pulse of Death shroud 4
Death shroud 3 should also apply 1 stack of buring
Death shroud 2 should have its cool down reduced to 12 seconds from 15 seconds to be more in line with repear shroud 2.

With all these things, necro death shroud will still be worse than repear shroud. But at least it narrows the gap and lets people play with more builds.

4, The soul comprehension trait needs to have an additional effect to help sustain.
Suggestion: You gain 10s protection when critically hit (cooldown 20 seconds). Everyone else gets perma protection so why not necros?

5, Unholy santuary and unholy martyr need to be useful.
Suggestion: Unholy martyr nerf removed and it now grants 10% life force
Unholy sanctuary needs to have the healing it provides double from 130/s to 260/s.

6, Focus off hand should be a survival weapon. Nobody has used this in 4 years of pvp basically, which is a complete failing of the balance.
Suggestion: Make one of the focus skills an invuln, similar to ele earth focus.

7, Life siphoning sucks. The healing amount is just pathetic.
Suggestion: Increase all life siphoning healing by at least 50%. If you want to move slowly then keep moving it up over time by 25%. I doubt 50% will make it good, but it would help weak builds.

8, Death magic and blood magic trait lines suck
Suggestion: These lines need some very powerful sustain traits in them. There is no reason transfusion should be a grandmaster for example.

9, Plague form is too weak to conditions. This was fine in the past, but with the power increases of all specs, conditions are EVERYWHERE.
Suggestion: Plague form should also cure 1 condition each time it pulses.

10, Well of blood is too weak. There needs to be some condition clear on this
Suggestion: Add condition clear. It should also be a water field.

11, The well grandmaster trait is too weak. The life siphon sucks, the recharge reduce is average and the 3s protection is pathetic in a world where perma protection is a thing.
Suggestion: Add condition removal to this trait. Wells should also remove 2 conditions on the necromancer when they are cast. This would help well of blood too.

No class should need to follow a tempest around to be effective. None of these changes add to anything in a meta spec really. In fact most of these changes will just open up build diversity.

Cool, now how do you propose to nerf the damage to balance out some of these sustain buffs?

Buffing necro sustain is just going to make DH v2.0 (Remember season 1-2 when DH were “trash”, then the buffed sustain and are now the most played and easiest class at all levels).

Necro currently is a “semi-glass cannon.” If you position well and play defensively, you can just melt the other team, or take out at least a couple of people before you die. If you position poorly and get properly focused, you melt. The damage to survivability ratio is pretty even. I mean, as a necro, you ARE going to die (unless you play that disgusting bunker necro build that takes forever to whittle away at). Accept it. The point isn’t to never die, its to do enough damage to the other team that they are worse off than yours when you DO go down.

Great suggestions. Also, Well of Blood should be a water field.

BlackBeard.2873:

Cool, now how do you propose to nerf the damage to balance out some of these sustain buffs?

Buffing necro sustain is just going to make DH v2.0 (Remember season 1-2 when DH were “trash”, then the buffed sustain and are now the most played and easiest class at all levels).

Necro currently is a “semi-glass cannon.” If you position well and play defensively, you can just melt the other team, or take out at least a couple of people before you die. If you position poorly and get properly focused, you melt. The damage to survivability ratio is pretty even. I mean, as a necro, you ARE going to die (unless you play that disgusting bunker necro build that takes forever to whittle away at). Accept it. The point isn’t to never die, its to do enough damage to the other team that they are worse off than yours when you DO go down.

No damage nerf would be needed. His proposed buffs don’t involve really anything taken by meta builds. This means meta builds would need to drop something to pick up this extra survival.

BlackBeard.2873:

Cool, now how do you propose to nerf the damage to balance out some of these sustain buffs?

Buffing necro sustain is just going to make DH v2.0 (Remember season 1-2 when DH were “trash”, then the buffed sustain and are now the most played and easiest class at all levels).

Necro currently is a “semi-glass cannon.” If you position well and play defensively, you can just melt the other team, or take out at least a couple of people before you die. If you position poorly and get properly focused, you melt. The damage to survivability ratio is pretty even. I mean, as a necro, you ARE going to die (unless you play that disgusting bunker necro build that takes forever to whittle away at). Accept it. The point isn’t to never die, its to do enough damage to the other team that they are worse off than yours when you DO go down.

Actually the only class that inflict lesser damage than the necromancer is the elementalist and every other classes 8also the elementalist) have higher sustain.

Say “if you play defensively and no one care about you, you can melt the enemy team” is the same thing as say “in PvE I kill everything easy!”.
For shure if no one care about what you’re doing you can inflict high damage (still if the necro have one of the worst dps of this game, both single target and AoE), but a dps Lb ranger can melt you with LB2+ petF2 without any problem in just 3 seconds.

The point is: if anyone that have a lot of dps (thief, ranger, warrior, guardian, revenant………. more or less everyone in this season unless the elementalist) chose to kill you, you can’t survive to his assault.

The necromancer for himself is a “slow killing and slow to kill” class and that make him unable (for devs choice) to have any kind of good burst combo or have any viable dps build (if you go glass you die just by been looked bad by a thief, he don’t even need to come to kill you, you die by default).

Increase the survavibility of the necromancer will not make him OP, only in line with all the other classes, that have both higher damage and survavibility.

But I’m shure that if Anet do that everyone will start to cry because he will get killed by a necro! omg!
More or less as the S2, that ended with the necromancer seen as a demon but only in line with all the other classes and hard countered by a large amount of classes and strategies (thief by defoult, mesmer with moa, engi with moa, some good dps warriors, dps revenants, any ranged class/build and any kind of team focus).

At the end, if ANet chose to finally make the necro really at the same level of all the other classes, we’ll be doomed to another huge nerf that will make us even more useless than now. Expecially because now we can’t even play in a team but need to Soloq and for a team based class that’s the worst thing ever.

I’d rather Necro not have more sustain, but other classes have less.

Some classes have absurd sustain from skills and traits. Warrior’s Adrenal Health trait, for example, is much better than most classes’ heals in the same time period. It also gets double invuln and like 20s of resistance on a pretty short cd. DH gets tons of long lasting blocks. Scrapper gets skills that defend while attacking, etc.

Here’s what I’d do:

• remove auto-proc-on-cc traits like Last Stand, Hunter’s Determination, etc. Defense should be active, not passive.
• reconsider the duration of blocks, reflects, invulns, resistance, especially if they allow the user to attack at the same time. 5 seconds is a long time in pvp. 20 seconds is basically an entire fight.
• see if it’s possible to bring HoT specs in line with pre-HoT levels of sustain.

- Necro pvp main. 1800

Necro should be able to trade some of the sustain they already have for mobility, because we’re going to focus you on point anyway due to the nature of your class. Doesn’t matter if you get a sustain buff or not, you can’t hold up against 3+.

Necro needs to be able to fill a different niche so people are less inclined to just default to “Focus necro”.

If you’re slow, corrupt boons, and lay marks but have 25% more health, counterplay is -focusing is now more mandatory-.

If you’re quicker and can… say, reasonably decap far or retreat after dropping marks, now we have a match.

BlackBeard.2873:

Cool, now how do you propose to nerf the damage to balance out some of these sustain buffs?

Buffing necro sustain is just going to make DH v2.0 (Remember season 1-2 when DH were “trash”, then the buffed sustain and are now the most played and easiest class at all levels).

Necro currently is a “semi-glass cannon.” If you position well and play defensively, you can just melt the other team, or take out at least a couple of people before you die. If you position poorly and get properly focused, you melt. The damage to survivability ratio is pretty even. I mean, as a necro, you ARE going to die (unless you play that disgusting bunker necro build that takes forever to whittle away at). Accept it. The point isn’t to never die, its to do enough damage to the other team that they are worse off than yours when you DO go down.

Most of these sustain buffs make it possible to spec for sustain whilst giving up damage. A spec running unholy santuary will not be doing the same damage as now. Same for wells, same for unholy martyr, same for sihpons.

Shaogin.2679:

Great suggestions. Also, Well of Blood should be a water field.

Good idea, forgot that one. Added it.

coro.3176:

I’d rather Necro not have more sustain, but other classes have less.

Some classes have absurd sustain from skills and traits. Warrior’s Adrenal Health trait, for example, is much better than most classes’ heals in the same time period. It also gets double invuln and like 20s of resistance on a pretty short cd. DH gets tons of long lasting blocks. Scrapper gets skills that defend while attacking, etc.

Here’s what I’d do:

• remove auto-proc-on-cc traits like Last Stand, Hunter’s Determination, etc. Defense should be active, not passive.
• reconsider the duration of blocks, reflects, invulns, resistance, especially if they allow the user to attack at the same time. 5 seconds is a long time in pvp. 20 seconds is basically an entire fight.
• see if it’s possible to bring HoT specs in line with pre-HoT levels of sustain.

- Necro pvp main. 1800

I agree, but this will never happen

Necro main exclusive, 1800. Things that drop my morale

-ZERO SHROUD AT START AND BUGGY -23% LIFEFORCE WHEN RESPAWN TIME ACTUALLY YOU NEED COMEBACK NOT SNOWBALL
Its been said a lot, but having a ex. clear 50% EVERYTIME U SPAWN or OOC like rev energy would STANDARDIZE BALANCE a lot. Currently its an uphill fight with chance to get 100-0 anytime, nothing else is that punishing.

- getting outrotated,
even played bit of old wurm and walk – but its still more backwards tracing and juking than always usefull omni-directional instant ports

- getting 100-0
no low CD spammable get out of jail cards or at least break enemy focus chain.

- getting 100-50 or 30 just because I ate a random blind
It can take 5-10k incoming damage to cast next skill if theyre all slow and youre have go through a blind, block, rupt and possible a random doge. Necro gameplay was always closer to fortune telling rather than being reactive

- No self healing
I dont want to be a 1v2 scrapper bunker in marauder, i just want enemy to commit to my +1 like they have to on others. with zero healing you cannot comeback or kite 1v1 against a worse player.

- Clunky slow casts and power specs
Again, i dont mind losing any stupid proc passives if it turns the likes of greatsword jokes into an alround functional set like D/P thief.
(cast and aftercasts, LOS & Facing requirements, complex buggy tracking and bouncing over simple aoe effects, projectile hate is too common, etc.)

Just a consistent standardized improvement nr(1) would help a lot by itself, then you see how many get out of jail cards we need. And the clunk removal is more functionality fix rather buff – it was great when necro had power and condi spec viable at same time, yet none were top S-tier-

I like your ideas op.
I would suggest another change but as global to the necromancer or maybe this can be used as trait: the percentage of damage(both condi and power) received should be inversely proportional to the number of players that are attacking you.
This would actually prevent players to focus you down but since it would be active all the time imo it shouldn’t negate over 75% of dmg received. I would last few seconds but can be retriggered multiple times
I know this might sound op but percentage of dmg reduced should be tested so numbers can change

Honestly if they just gave us a skill that converts damage taken into lifeforce (like how infused light works) we would be fine.

No need to redesign the entire class for want of a simple solution.

Flumek.9043:

Necro main exclusive, 1800. Things that drop my morale

-ZERO SHROUD AT START AND BUGGY -23% LIFEFORCE WHEN ACTUALLY YOU NEED COMEBACK NOT SNOWBALL
Its been said a lot, but having a ex. clear 50% EVERYTIME U SPAWN or OOC like rev energy would STANDARDIZE BALANCE a lot. Currently its an uphill fight with chance to get 100-0 anytime, nothing else is that punishing.

- getting outrotated,
even played bit of old wurm and walk – but its still more backwards tracing and juking than always usefull omni-directional instant ports

- getting 100-0
no low CD spammable get out of jail cards or at least break enemy focus chain.

- getting 100-50 or 30 just because I ate a random blind
It can take 5-10k incoming damage to cast next skill if theyre all slow and youre have go through a blind, block, rupt and possible a random doge. Necro gameplay was always closer to fortune telling rather than being reactive

- No self healing
I dont want to be a 1v2 scrapper bunker in marauder, i just want enemy to commit to my +1 like they have to on others. with zero healing you cannot comeback or kite 1v1 against a worse player.

- Clunky slow casts and power specs
Again, i dont mind losing any stupid proc passives if it turns the likes of greatsword jokes into an alround functional set like D/P thief.
(cast and aftercasts, LOS & Facing requirements, complex buggy tracking and bouncing over simple aoe effects, projectile hate is too common, etc.)

Just a consistent standardized improvement nr(1) would help a lot by itself, then you see how many get out of jail cards we need. And the clunk removal is more functionality fix rather buff – it was great when necro had power and condi spec viable at same time, yet none were top S-tier-

Forgot about the life force at begin of game. Added that.

I don’t share your pessimism for Blood Magic. Nevertheless, all your suggested buffs make sense and would be great.

However, you forget to add the perhaps most important one: all healing needs to work through Shroud.
Which, btw, is the only way you could ever make Well of Blood viable because currently the healing pulses don’t heal through Shroud, which also means that Ritual of Life isn’t a viable trait because more often than not necros will try to Shroud-rez their allies.

@ Life force:
Before anyone who doesn’t play necro gasps in shock at the seemingly long list of buffs, necros are actually long overdue for a life force pool nerf. There’s a bug since mid 2013 that reduces all sources of damage in Shroud by 50%. Or in other words, necro’s life force is acutally double of whatever number is displayed on the lf bar.
A bug that should be fixed, obviously. So if that happened some extra healing wouldn’t really be that outrageous anymore.

I’m guessing Necro is going to get an Elite spec with a shield. Perhaps a more undead/ghoul-focused spec?

My thoughts:

Vital Persistence is too important. Reduce the base LF degen from 4% to 3%, and have VP still reduce it to 2%.
Soul Comprehension sucks. Replace it with “Gain 2% LF every 3 seconds”.

Necs will never be allowed healing in shroud. Eles whille just heal them to full long before they shroud dissapears. Allowing the shroud itself to be healed would be a better approach but still need balancing.

flow.6043:

@ Life force:
Before anyone who doesn’t play necro gasps in shock at the seemingly long list of buffs, necros are actually long overdue for a life force pool nerf. There’s a bug since mid 2013 that reduces all sources of damage in Shroud by 50%. Or in other words, necro’s life force is acutally double of whatever number is displayed on the lf bar.
A bug that should be fixed, obviously. So if that happened some extra healing wouldn’t really be that outrageous anymore.

Afaik, what is stated in the wiki is intended:
“While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force.”

Aesa.4819:

flow.6043:

@ Life force:
Before anyone who doesn’t play necro gasps in shock at the seemingly long list of buffs, necros are actually long overdue for a life force pool nerf. There’s a bug since mid 2013 that reduces all sources of damage in Shroud by 50%. Or in other words, necro’s life force is acutally double of whatever number is displayed on the lf bar.
A bug that should be fixed, obviously. So if that happened some extra healing wouldn’t really be that outrageous anymore.

Afaik, what is stated in the wiki is intended:
“While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force.”

If by “intended” you mean Anet knows about it but fixing it has not been their highest priority for the past 3.5 years, then yeah… intended.

Also, it’s not just direct damage, it’s everything, even falling damage.
This bug was a byproduct of fixing another bug that caused necros to only have half hp in downstate. Presumably, the fact that Death Shroud used to be the necro’s downstate in some beta build of the game caused this fix to affect both.
People back then actually thought at first that necros suddenly had twice as much life force. Only a few months later Anet added actual number values to the life force bar which made it possible to test what’s going on. And as it turned out, overflow damage would substract the correct amount of life force from the lf pool, thus making a damage reduction more likely than having twice as much lf with a wrongly displayed number.

The fact remains, however, it’s a bug. It’s certainly not intended. Tolerated perhaps, after all it has become part of how necro is balanced.

Gwaihir.1745:

Necs will never be allowed healing in shroud. Eles whille just heal them to full long before they shroud dissapears.

I really hate this argument.
Every time the subject healing through Shroud is brought up someone says something along the lines of: but what if they get healed… by allies?!?! Well, that’s the point!
Necros really need that support. They are the easiest targets in team fights, yet they are the only class that can’t be healed by allies half the time.
Also, people tend to hugely overestimate how much healing through Shroud would actually impact those fights. If a necro is fighting with decent support players they will usually wait for the right moment anyway, instead of pointlessly blowing all heals on Shroud. So the net gain in this case would mostly be a QoL buff for allies so they wouldn’t have to worry about wasting their heals.

Aesa.4819:

flow.6043:

@ Life force:
Before anyone who doesn’t play necro gasps in shock at the seemingly long list of buffs, necros are actually long overdue for a life force pool nerf. There’s a bug since mid 2013 that reduces all sources of damage in Shroud by 50%. Or in other words, necro’s life force is acutally double of whatever number is displayed on the lf bar.
A bug that should be fixed, obviously. So if that happened some extra healing wouldn’t really be that outrageous anymore.

Afaik, what is stated in the wiki is intended:
“While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force.”

it is absolutely not intended.

I mean from balance perspective. It is remnant from old spaghetti coding and the bugs shroud has, and theyre just leaving it the way it is as its not a balance outlier.

like flow said for healing,

what about evryone else who was and is always able to fullheal in invulns and stealths in safety?

The main problem of shroud healing would not be BURST HEALING BY ALLIES, but rather LONG PASSIVE REGENS as shrouds durations are lenghtier than the true invulns.

Then again,
everyone else has stupid strong passive ticks and survival is mostly dependant on cooldowns and positioning rather than having 10k vs 15k hp left – getting healed 0-30k then focused back to 0 seconds later is regular scenario.

Silv.9207:

BlackBeard.2873:

Cool, now how do you propose to nerf the damage to balance out some of these sustain buffs?

Buffing necro sustain is just going to make DH v2.0 (Remember season 1-2 when DH were “trash”, then the buffed sustain and are now the most played and easiest class at all levels).

Necro currently is a “semi-glass cannon.” If you position well and play defensively, you can just melt the other team, or take out at least a couple of people before you die. If you position poorly and get properly focused, you melt. The damage to survivability ratio is pretty even. I mean, as a necro, you ARE going to die (unless you play that disgusting bunker necro build that takes forever to whittle away at). Accept it. The point isn’t to never die, its to do enough damage to the other team that they are worse off than yours when you DO go down.

Actually the only class that inflict lesser damage than the necromancer is the elementalist and every other classes 8also the elementalist) have higher sustain.

Say “if you play defensively and no one care about you, you can melt the enemy team” is the same thing as say “in PvE I kill everything easy!”.
For shure if no one care about what you’re doing you can inflict high damage (still if the necro have one of the worst dps of this game, both single target and AoE), but a dps Lb ranger can melt you with LB2+ petF2 without any problem in just 3 seconds.

The point is: if anyone that have a lot of dps (thief, ranger, warrior, guardian, revenant………. more or less everyone in this season unless the elementalist) chose to kill you, you can’t survive to his assault.

The necromancer for himself is a “slow killing and slow to kill” class and that make him unable (for devs choice) to have any kind of good burst combo or have any viable dps build (if you go glass you die just by been looked bad by a thief, he don’t even need to come to kill you, you die by default).

Increase the survavibility of the necromancer will not make him OP, only in line with all the other classes, that have both higher damage and survavibility.

But I’m shure that if Anet do that everyone will start to cry because he will get killed by a necro! omg!
More or less as the S2, that ended with the necromancer seen as a demon but only in line with all the other classes and hard countered by a large amount of classes and strategies (thief by defoult, mesmer with moa, engi with moa, some good dps warriors, dps revenants, any ranged class/build and any kind of team focus).

At the end, if ANet chose to finally make the necro really at the same level of all the other classes, we’ll be doomed to another huge nerf that will make us even more useless than now. Expecially because now we can’t even play in a team but need to Soloq and for a team based class that’s the worst thing ever.

What sucks for necro currently is how dependant it is on support (heals, rezzes). But otherwise, necro has by far the most terrifying damage spikes in the game. It’s extremely hard to recover after you are boon stripped + proc spiked down to 20% HP (the current meta battle build). It is pretty apparent that you don’t know much about necro. Sure people melt you, but what do you expect when 3 players use CC on you? You shouldn’t even pick fights where you 1v1, as necro currently can’t do that. What you do have is teamfight potential. And extremely good teamfight potential. Boon corrupts pretty much melt druids, eles, scrappers, etc. Watch Noscoc if you don’t believe me. There is a reason necro is meta. Not just in 5v5 pro games.

flow.6043:

Aesa.4819:

flow.6043:

@ Life force:
Before anyone who doesn’t play necro gasps in shock at the seemingly long list of buffs, necros are actually long overdue for a life force pool nerf. There’s a bug since mid 2013 that reduces all sources of damage in Shroud by 50%. Or in other words, necro’s life force is acutally double of whatever number is displayed on the lf bar.
A bug that should be fixed, obviously. So if that happened some extra healing wouldn’t really be that outrageous anymore.

Afaik, what is stated in the wiki is intended:
“While in Death Shroud, direct damage is halved, except when the hit depletes all of the life force.”

If by “intended” you mean Anet knows about it but fixing it has not been their highest priority for the past 3.5 years, then yeah… intended.

Also, it’s not just direct damage, it’s everything, even falling damage.
This bug was a byproduct of fixing another bug that caused necros to only have half hp in downstate. Presumably, the fact that Death Shroud used to be the necro’s downstate in some beta build of the game caused this fix to affect both.
People back then actually thought at first that necros suddenly had twice as much life force. Only a few months later Anet added actual number values to the life force bar which made it possible to test what’s going on. And as it turned out, overflow damage would substract the correct amount of life force from the lf pool, thus making a damage reduction more likely than having twice as much lf with a wrongly displayed number.

The fact remains, however, it’s a bug. It’s certainly not intended. Tolerated perhaps, after all it has become part of how necro is balanced.

Gwaihir.1745:

Necs will never be allowed healing in shroud. Eles whille just heal them to full long before they shroud dissapears.

I really hate this argument.
Every time the subject healing through Shroud is brought up someone says something along the lines of: but what if they get healed… by allies?!?! Well, that’s the point!
Necros really need that support. They are the easiest targets in team fights, yet they are the only class that can’t be healed by allies half the time.
Also, people tend to hugely overestimate how much healing through Shroud would actually impact those fights. If a necro is fighting with decent support players they will usually wait for the right moment anyway, instead of pointlessly blowing all heals on Shroud. So the net gain in this case would mostly be a QoL buff for allies so they wouldn’t have to worry about wasting their heals.

Also if healing through shroud is such a problem then maybe they should nerf the healing of other classes?

Its like the blighters boon nerf. Necro got nerfed because ele’s produce so many boons. Like really?

Flumek.9043:

like flow said for healing,

what about evryone else who was and is always able to fullheal in invulns and stealths in safety?

The main problem of shroud healing would not be BURST HEALING BY ALLIES, but rather LONG PASSIVE REGENS as shrouds durations are lenghtier than the true invulns.

Then again,
everyone else has stupid strong passive ticks and survival is mostly dependant on cooldowns and positioning rather than having 10k vs 15k hp left – getting healed 0-30k then focused back to 0 seconds later is regular scenario.

EXACTLY. Everyone else gets perma invuln or the ability to block or kite or go invis or whatever else. Why shouldn’t necro have this? And yeh, necro damage is nice, but mesmer damage is also amazing and they have perma portal and perma moa (continium split lol) and are perma invuln.

Pleas post aboves perma invuln build, would like to see.

Superhoops.8956:

Flumek.9043:

like flow said for healing,

what about evryone else who was and is always able to fullheal in invulns and stealths in safety?

The main problem of shroud healing would not be BURST HEALING BY ALLIES, but rather LONG PASSIVE REGENS as shrouds durations are lenghtier than the true invulns.

Then again,
everyone else has stupid strong passive ticks and survival is mostly dependant on cooldowns and positioning rather than having 10k vs 15k hp left – getting healed 0-30k then focused back to 0 seconds later is regular scenario.

EXACTLY. Everyone else gets perma invuln or the ability to block or kite or go invis or whatever else. Why shouldn’t necro have this? And yeh, necro damage is nice, but mesmer damage is also amazing and they have perma portal and perma moa (continium split lol) and are perma invuln.

But do mesmers have chill? Boon strips? Necro has more condi pressure and mesmer loses to dragonhunter by far while a good necro knows to use his staff when dh presses F3. What I am saying is that if you compare these 2 classes the way you do, you show everyone that you don’t get why necro is very strong. It’s just that it needs support (only if you play meta build, I can easily fight everyone, except warrior…. CC, on a core necro non meta build without support).

You pretty much sound like a salty necro player that got rekt in game. Tho yea, necro should start with 30% life force, it’s just annoying to start without.

What if we just remove everyone elses sustain. That way the necro will sustain fine relative to his opponents without continuing the post HoT power creep.

Tomiyou.3790:

Superhoops.8956:

Flumek.9043:

like flow said for healing,

what about evryone else who was and is always able to fullheal in invulns and stealths in safety?

The main problem of shroud healing would not be BURST HEALING BY ALLIES, but rather LONG PASSIVE REGENS as shrouds durations are lenghtier than the true invulns.

Then again,
everyone else has stupid strong passive ticks and survival is mostly dependant on cooldowns and positioning rather than having 10k vs 15k hp left – getting healed 0-30k then focused back to 0 seconds later is regular scenario.

EXACTLY. Everyone else gets perma invuln or the ability to block or kite or go invis or whatever else. Why shouldn’t necro have this? And yeh, necro damage is nice, but mesmer damage is also amazing and they have perma portal and perma moa (continium split lol) and are perma invuln.

But do mesmers have chill? Boon strips? Necro has more condi pressure and mesmer loses to dragonhunter by far while a good necro knows to use his staff when dh presses F3. What I am saying is that if you compare these 2 classes the way you do, you show everyone that you don’t get why necro is very strong. It’s just that it needs support (only if you play meta build, I can easily fight everyone, except warrior…. CC, on a core necro non meta build without support).

You pretty much sound like a salty necro player that got rekt in game. Tho yea, necro should start with 30% life force, it’s just annoying to start without.

Mesmer could spec for way more damage than necro if they wanted to. They pick defensive traits though and still do massive damage.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Tomiyou.3790:

Superhoops.8956:

Flumek.9043:

like flow said for healing,

what about evryone else who was and is always able to fullheal in invulns and stealths in safety?

The main problem of shroud healing would not be BURST HEALING BY ALLIES, but rather LONG PASSIVE REGENS as shrouds durations are lenghtier than the true invulns.

Then again,
everyone else has stupid strong passive ticks and survival is mostly dependant on cooldowns and positioning rather than having 10k vs 15k hp left – getting healed 0-30k then focused back to 0 seconds later is regular scenario.

EXACTLY. Everyone else gets perma invuln or the ability to block or kite or go invis or whatever else. Why shouldn’t necro have this? And yeh, necro damage is nice, but mesmer damage is also amazing and they have perma portal and perma moa (continium split lol) and are perma invuln.

But do mesmers have chill? Boon strips? Necro has more condi pressure and mesmer loses to dragonhunter by far while a good necro knows to use his staff when dh presses F3. What I am saying is that if you compare these 2 classes the way you do, you show everyone that you don’t get why necro is very strong. It’s just that it needs support (only if you play meta build, I can easily fight everyone, except warrior…. CC, on a core necro non meta build without support).

You pretty much sound like a salty necro player that got rekt in game. Tho yea, necro should start with 30% life force, it’s just annoying to start without.

Mesmer could spec for way more damage than necro if they wanted to. They pick defensive traits though and still do massive damage.

But that’s just the point. Necros pick offensive ones because they, while being supported, are such a damage powerhouse. And about mesmer speccing for more damage if they wanted to, sure. Let’s see someone play near full glass mesmer and watch them disappear. While deathshroud provides no blocks or invulns, you can still benefit 100% from it even while you are full glass. No need to spec into defensive, you get it by default. Mesmer just got nerfed and we are having one of the best metas since HoT (which isn’t really saying much, but still, it’s good). I just don’t understand all people crying so hard, since necro is in a pretty good spot. (except when warrior gets on necro…..)

The real question is, if necros get buffed, how are you supposed to win any fight vs necro/ele combo?

Shadowstep.6049:

The real question is, if necros get buffed, how are you supposed to win any fight vs necro/ele combo?

You buff the defensive lines or core necro specs that mean to be more survivable the necro has to give up their damage lines. There is no suggestion of putting defensive buffs into curses or spite lines which is where all the passive procs that kill people come from

Lordrosicky.5813:

Shadowstep.6049:

The real question is, if necros get buffed, how are you supposed to win any fight vs necro/ele combo?

You buff the defensive lines or core necro specs that mean to be more survivable the necro has to give up their damage lines. There is no suggestion of putting defensive buffs into curses or spite lines which is where all the passive procs that kill people come from

it really doesnt matter if your doing less damage if your never going to die. youll do enough damage to still kill people while being immortal. esp if you make healing through shroud a thing. it will be the most op thing we have seen yet imo. i guess you never noticed how slow shroud goes down in a fair fight. when a necro is being focused yeah it dies quick. why do you expect to win 1v4? you should die. but in like a 2v2? ive seen necros win games for their team with the right support because of how fast they kill bunkers.

@Tomiyou.3790
@sophiewhite.3149
@Shadowstep.6049

To answer your questions of “how do you then win a fight with necro+ele combo?”

You dont free-win it from start. thats all.

The defensive necro traits are neglectible and theres a lack of natural defenses like zero lifeforce and clunky abilities. -THATS WHERE THE COMPLAINS AIM-

Necro weapons by themselves are mediocre.
Necro OFFENSIVE TRAITS ARE AMAZING. Also necro often IS FORCED into OFFENSIVE UTILITIES.
Long gone are the times where you could kill something with a 3x stunbreak power necro or 2x wurm+walk condi necro. Our weapons are medium to weak. On contrast – a warrior/dh has enough pressure and functionality on weapon, so his main goal is to take defensive traits and utilities so he live lets say 2 of his damage attempts and maybe some move/disengage.
A defensive traited necro will be a bruiser like druid, not dps like warrior/rev/dh

And one of you had for me a funny matchup advice

-1v1 = dont cz you lost most, but you cant disengage and necro nothing works on roads, only on node
-2v2 = ideal, but requires ele and enemy has option to run, you dont
-3v3 = ideal, but requires ele
-4v4 = requires ele, too big if 4x spiked
-5v5 = requires ele + another support + dps peeler, too big if 5x spiked
X vs. X+1 = too slow for +1
BONUS NOTE = teamfights take minutes, a regulat thief 1v2 is instant kill and control of 1/3 to half of map

Do you see the overall % of how “amazing” it is to be “amazing at teamfights” ? ;P

yeah..condi spam sucks so much in this game..that you don’t see any condi specs, we really need to buff condi specs …so that we can have more around -_-

Shauma, i understand your point, but still if necro defensives were buffed they would have to nerf eles because support eles wouldn’t just suddenly disappear. Good ele or druid can keep necro alive for ages. I have seen it done way too many times.

Also, let’s assume necro does give up his offensive power for defensives. The issue is, corrupt boons is still there, condi spam is still there, even without procs it is insane pressure on certain classes.

I wouldn’t bring up warrior and DH for comparison as those are straight out broken atm and need massive nerfing.

Shadowstep.6049:

Shauma, i understand your point, but still if necro defensives were buffed they would have to nerf eles because support eles wouldn’t just suddenly disappear. Good ele or druid can keep necro alive for ages. I have seen it done way too many times.

Also, let’s assume necro does give up his offensive power for defensives. The issue is, corrupt boons is still there, condi spam is still there, even without procs it is insane pressure on certain classes.

I wouldn’t bring up warrior and DH for comparison as those are straight out broken atm and need massive nerfing.

Nope. Almost all necro damage comes from spite and curses trait lines and their passive procs. If they move into death magic and blood magic and drop one or both of these they lose a ton of damage.

Flumek.9043:

@Tomiyou.3790
@sophiewhite.3149
@Shadowstep.6049

To answer your questions of “how do you then win a fight with necro+ele combo?”

You dont free-win it from start. thats all.

The defensive necro traits are neglectible and theres a lack of natural defenses like zero lifeforce and clunky abilities. -THATS WHERE THE COMPLAINS AIM-

Necro weapons by themselves are mediocre.
Necro OFFENSIVE TRAITS ARE AMAZING. Also necro often IS FORCED into OFFENSIVE UTILITIES.
Long gone are the times where you could kill something with a 3x stunbreak power necro or 2x wurm+walk condi necro. Our weapons are medium to weak. On contrast – a warrior/dh has enough pressure and functionality on weapon, so his main goal is to take defensive traits and utilities so he live lets say 2 of his damage attempts and maybe some move/disengage.
A defensive traited necro will be a bruiser like druid, not dps like warrior/rev/dh

And one of you had for me a funny matchup advice

-1v1 = dont cz you lost most, but you cant disengage and necro nothing works on roads, only on node
-2v2 = ideal, but requires ele and enemy has option to run, you dont
-3v3 = ideal, but requires ele
-4v4 = requires ele, too big if 4x spiked
-5v5 = requires ele + another support + dps peeler, too big if 5x spiked
X vs. X+1 = too slow for +1
BONUS NOTE = teamfights take minutes, a regulat thief 1v2 is instant kill and control of 1/3 to half of map

Do you see the overall % of how “amazing” it is to be “amazing at teamfights” ? ;P

Allright, I see your point and you make totally valid points (unlike other people that posted here). If we were to give them more survivability, they should be done in a way that they lose some of their damage, like making it worth picking defensive traits instead of offensive ones. What I mean is that if you give them an option for more survivability without taking a bit of their power in doing that, it would be season 2 all over again.

There should be a build that would have more survivability and a little bit less pressure, but at that point, would necro be worth taking? To some extent it is similar to the current ele. Sure they can be a pain to kill, but if you take focus away from them, you almost delete their existence them from PvP. The only way to fix that would be to nerf focus and buff everything else ele has, but that’s never gonna happen (balance team does what evolution does: adjusts things, they never take a look at the actual design and redo things). Not sure what that answer would be for necro.

Why cant necro have both survivability and good damage? all of the current classes have better ways to survive focus and get back in fight fast while also having good burst damage.

You guys fear from necro having both ways to survive hard focus and chance to get back in fight and some decent damage while current classes have both worlds already.

Just look at Warrior and Guardian for example. both easy to play both very bunkerish high dps with some cc ( Team having this advantage, more chance to win the game ) So nerf their damage or nerf survivability then?

Flumek.9043:

-1v1 = dont cz you lost most, but you cant disengage and necro nothing works on roads, only on node

And the “pro” can write you this

Rolisteel.1375:

Why cant necro have both survivability and good damage? all of the current classes have better ways to survive focus and get back in fight fast while also having good burst damage.

You guys fear from necro having both ways to survive hard focus and chance to get back in fight and some decent damage while current classes have both worlds already.

Because your dmg is all aoe and cover 100% of the whole point

The worst part is the boon corruption so there is no “protection” against all that aoe dmg like we can do with dh and similar, we only have condi clear that atm have huge CD and work only FIFO system.

If the dmg of the necro would be single target, I don’t think people would create much fuss in buffing necro sustain…last thing we need now it’s a DH 2.0 when people are desperate to see DH nerfed to oblivion

There is still this notion around that necro get targeted for easy kill..when the truth is, we target necro because they’re worst than dh when it comes to dmg….luckily for us just not as much sustain

Well for me only thing that matter is to make necro on same or almost same level for solo play just solve the issue with focus survivability so if we don’t have to rely on our allies that much then im fine.

I don’t want ask for OP stuff i just want to play the game also when matchmaking groups me with no so good team players instead of running back all the time from spawn because multiple foes attacks makes my class useless.

I was thinking about giving necro better stability access also in caster form not just shroud and some better life siphoning maybe solve the issues just fine. This and some mobility and we have a solo q ready necromancer.

Rolisteel.1375:

Why cant necro have both survivability and good damage? all of the current classes have better ways to survive focus and get back in fight fast while also having good burst damage.

You guys fear from necro having both ways to survive hard focus and chance to get back in fight and some decent damage while current classes have both worlds already.

Just look at Warrior and Guardian for example. both easy to play both very bunkerish high dps with some cc ( Team having this advantage, more chance to win the game ) So nerf their damage or nerf survivability then?

Because necro is judged by another standard. Thief/mesmer have been meta for basically 4 years and that is fine. Necro (a single necro) is meta for 3 months and its the end of the world and it must be nerfed. It is unfair.

Supreme.3164:

Rolisteel.1375:

Why cant necro have both survivability and good damage? all of the current classes have better ways to survive focus and get back in fight fast while also having good burst damage.

You guys fear from necro having both ways to survive hard focus and chance to get back in fight and some decent damage while current classes have both worlds already.

Because your dmg is all aoe and cover 100% of the whole point

The worst part is the boon corruption so there is no “protection” against all that aoe dmg like we can do with dh and similar, we only have condi clear that atm have huge CD and work only FIFO system.

If the dmg of the necro would be single target, I don’t think people would create much fuss in buffing necro sustain…last thing we need now it’s a DH 2.0 when people are desperate to see DH nerfed to oblivion

There is still this notion around that necro get targeted for easy kill..when the truth is, we target necro because they’re worst than dh when it comes to dmg….luckily for us just not as much sustain

No one is asking for defensive buffs in curses or spite. No one is asking for condi damage increase. People are asking for BM and DM buffs which would force people to choose another line.

And as far as going for the necro because of the damage thats just not true. That might play a small small part of it but its is MAINLY because they have no way to recover once the ds is burned up or you target them intitially so they never get a chance to build up shroud.

Supreme.3164:

Because your dmg is all aoe and cover 100% of the whole point

Arc Divider covers the whole point too.
So does DH traps.
So does every single ele overload along with several of their weapon skills.
So does warrior LB F1 (both berserk and non-berserk forms)
So does Mesmer wells.
So does Mesmer condi shatters.
So does engi fields and electro whirl.
So does Guardian symbols.
Do I need to continue?

Point covering AoE is extremely common and prevalent on most classes.

The worst part is the boon corruption so there is no “protection” against all that aoe dmg like we can do with dh and similar, we only have condi clear that atm have huge CD and work only FIFO system.

blocks, evades

If the dmg of the necro would be single target, I don’t think people would create much fuss in buffing necro sustain…last thing we need now it’s a DH 2.0 when people are desperate to see DH nerfed to oblivion

Over half of necro damage is already single target.
Also Scepter auto which is the primary source of boon corrupt is single target. So is the corrupt boon skill. So is the Spinal Shivers proc. So is plague signet.

Crinn.7864:

Supreme.3164:

Because your dmg is all aoe and cover 100% of the whole point

Arc Divider covers the whole point too.
So does DH traps.
So does every single ele overload along with several of their weapon skills.
So does warrior LB F1 (both berserk and non-berserk forms)
So does Mesmer wells.
So does Mesmer condi shatters.
So does engi fields and electro whirl.
So does Guardian symbols.

Point covering AoE is extremely common and prevalent on most classes.

The worst part is the boon corruption so there is no “protection” against all that aoe dmg like we can do with dh and similar, we only have condi clear that atm have huge CD and work only FIFO system.

blocks, evades

If the dmg of the necro would be single target, I don’t think people would create much fuss in buffing necro sustain…last thing we need now it’s a DH 2.0 when people are desperate to see DH nerfed to oblivion

Over half of necro damage is already single target.
Also Scepter auto which is the primary source of boon corrupt is single target. So is the corrupt boon skill. So is the Spinal Shivers proc. So is plague signet.

actually the primary source for boon corruption is the spite grandmaster now.

Problem is that in pvp, class swapping should be the norm these days, I realise than expecting every profession to be good at your desired role is not healthy to the game.
I came to accept that ele will be always relegated to support ele and fair enough..I stopped wasting my energies asking buffs left and right and instead invested that time in learning other specs.

Having 8 character slots can’t be just a coincidence

If you still want to use a single profession in pvp, then accept its limitations without much fuss after all in pve everything works, in pvp you don’t have to grind for anything, everything unlocked

If there is support…play necro, if there isn’t..don’t play necro, specs like DH are the result of our greediness , so now we first hard nerf dh -war and then we see who need that little push in the right direction.

There is nothing to buff atm…things must be nerfed, let’s scale back on this outrageous aoe/cc spam because honestly..this is really ridicolous

And another thing that I’d like to add : anet is using elites to sell expansion and create new roles for all classes, I’d rather see a “duellist” necro with a modified version of DS like RS is for teamfights

Buffing sustain of necro with RS still there…it’s really a backstabbing strategy : simply necros would gain tanky role outside RS..then swap to RS for above average aoe DPS.

Spite/curses are the cherries on the cake..where the cake itself is RS so sorry to say that reaper would lose “much” dps without spite/curses..it’s really a nasty lie

NeXeD.3042:

actually the primary source for boon corruption is the spite grandmaster now.

Only on the current generation metabattle necro build. (which given how fast the meta necro build changes it will be different by next month)

Also the procmancer build is terrible in solo queue. (to the point that metabattle specifically states that it shouldn’t be run in solo queue)

Besides I’m fairly certain that scepter auto will still add up to more corrupts over the course of the match. On shroud are just currently favored due to better control.

Crinn.7864:

Supreme.3164:

Because your dmg is all aoe and cover 100% of the whole point

Arc Divider covers the whole point too.
So does DH traps.
So does every single ele overload along with several of their weapon skills.
So does warrior LB F1 (both berserk and non-berserk forms)
So does Mesmer wells.
So does Mesmer condi shatters.
So does engi fields and electro whirl.
So does Guardian symbols.
Do I need to continue?

Point covering AoE is extremely common and prevalent on most classes.

The worst part is the boon corruption so there is no “protection” against all that aoe dmg like we can do with dh and similar, we only have condi clear that atm have huge CD and work only FIFO system.

blocks, evades

If the dmg of the necro would be single target, I don’t think people would create much fuss in buffing necro sustain…last thing we need now it’s a DH 2.0 when people are desperate to see DH nerfed to oblivion

Over half of necro damage is already single target.
Also Scepter auto which is the primary source of boon corrupt is single target. So is the corrupt boon skill. So is the Spinal Shivers proc. So is plague signet.

-DH and Wars must be nerfed so your point doesn’t stand and mesmer wells cannot be spammed and can be easily negated with a stunbreak..a single skill

-Not everybody can block like a dh and neither we must forget that marks are unblockable

-Ele overloads take 4s casting time which makes them an easy target for interruption and ofc the dmg is below average….and people can simply walk out of it….like why even mention ele overloads this is not pve

-Over half your dmg is single target?
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Procmancer
Are you kidding me?

Crinn.7864:

NeXeD.3042:

actually the primary source for boon corruption is the spite grandmaster now.

Only on the current generation metabattle necro build. (which given how fast the meta necro build changes it will be different by next month)

Also the procmancer build is terrible in solo queue. (to the point that metabattle specifically states that it shouldn’t be run in solo queue)

Besides I’m fairly certain that scepter auto will still add up to more corrupts over the course of the match. On shroud are just currently favored due to better control.

one ds proc can corrupt 10 boons at once….. your going to get that more than you will finish a scepter chain on someone.