Guild Wars 2

Zoso.8279:

power Necro builds being stubborn and having the one skill burst kill mentality and that is most definitely NOT how Necros should be played. We are attrition class we should be the best 1v1 “slowly kill you” fighters not burst. My advise to those Necros…. Don’t blow your load too quickly :P lol!

m8 u wot

Unless the necro is running the spectral variant of power nec with no wells(pls don’t), letting fights turn into battles of attrition is the worst thing that can happen imo. Ending the fight quickly before attrition kicks in and all your kitten is on cooldown while the enemy heals like wolverine on steroids and does a steady of amount of damage that depletes your health and ds faster than you can replenish either is somewhat important.

The only Necro build that feels even remotely attrition-y is Condi since there’s no way to burst condis on people anymore. I suppose MM fits into the attrition playstyle too, until your minions are dead and you have to resummon them all while low on hp.

Aktium.9506:

Zoso.8279:

power Necro builds being stubborn and having the one skill burst kill mentality and that is most definitely NOT how Necros should be played. We are attrition class we should be the best 1v1 “slowly kill you” fighters not burst. My advise to those Necros…. Don’t blow your load too quickly :P lol!

m8 u wot

Unless the necro is running the spectral variant of power nec with no wells(pls don’t), letting fights turn into battles of attrition is the worst thing that can happen imo. Ending the fight quickly before attrition kicks in and all your kitten is on cooldown while the enemy heals like wolverine on steroids and does a steady of amount of damage that depletes your health and ds faster than you can replenish either is somewhat important.

The only Necro build that feels even remotely attrition-y is Condi since there’s no way to burst condis on people anymore. I suppose MM fits into the attrition playstyle too, until your minions are dead and you have to resummon them all while low on hp.

Wells imo are best used in WvW or in holding points where the size and static nature of wells is best highlighted by number of players hit and control of an area. One skill kill burst builds on a class thats whole concept is based around attrition I think is not using the class to its full potential. Now if your going for a more tank route then yeah wells are a better option because tank builds are all about holding points or areas.

Zoso.8279:

Aktium.9506:

Zoso.8279:

power Necro builds being stubborn and having the one skill burst kill mentality and that is most definitely NOT how Necros should be played. We are attrition class we should be the best 1v1 “slowly kill you” fighters not burst. My advise to those Necros…. Don’t blow your load too quickly :P lol!

m8 u wot

Unless the necro is running the spectral variant of power nec with no wells(pls don’t), letting fights turn into battles of attrition is the worst thing that can happen imo. Ending the fight quickly before attrition kicks in and all your kitten is on cooldown while the enemy heals like wolverine on steroids and does a steady of amount of damage that depletes your health and ds faster than you can replenish either is somewhat important.

The only Necro build that feels even remotely attrition-y is Condi since there’s no way to burst condis on people anymore. I suppose MM fits into the attrition playstyle too, until your minions are dead and you have to resummon them all while low on hp.

Wells imo are best used in WvW or in holding points where the size and static nature of wells is best highlighted by number of players hit and control of an area. One skill kill burst builds on a class thats whole concept is based around attrition I think is not using the class to its full potential. Now if your going for a more tank route then yeah wells are a better option because tank builds are all about holding points or areas.

Slapping down wells on a point or on a downed person about to be ressed and doing loads of ranged AoE damage is more or less the only reason to take a Power Necro over say a Mesmer, Warr or Thief in Conquest. When all your damage is tied to DS, Lich and wep sets and your niche use of heavy AoE pressure is gone you’ve simply got less to offer than other classes. Necromancer’s attrition won’t work as intended for as long as other classes can regain health and/or disengage at the rate they currently can. This may or may not change with Reaper. We’ll see I suppose, not that Reaper possibly being good helps base Necromancer though.

Aktium.9506:

Zoso.8279:

Aktium.9506:

Zoso.8279:

power Necro builds being stubborn and having the one skill burst kill mentality and that is most definitely NOT how Necros should be played. We are attrition class we should be the best 1v1 “slowly kill you” fighters not burst. My advise to those Necros…. Don’t blow your load too quickly :P lol!

m8 u wot

Unless the necro is running the spectral variant of power nec with no wells(pls don’t), letting fights turn into battles of attrition is the worst thing that can happen imo. Ending the fight quickly before attrition kicks in and all your kitten is on cooldown while the enemy heals like wolverine on steroids and does a steady of amount of damage that depletes your health and ds faster than you can replenish either is somewhat important.

The only Necro build that feels even remotely attrition-y is Condi since there’s no way to burst condis on people anymore. I suppose MM fits into the attrition playstyle too, until your minions are dead and you have to resummon them all while low on hp.

Wells imo are best used in WvW or in holding points where the size and static nature of wells is best highlighted by number of players hit and control of an area. One skill kill burst builds on a class thats whole concept is based around attrition I think is not using the class to its full potential. Now if your going for a more tank route then yeah wells are a better option because tank builds are all about holding points or areas.

Slapping down wells on a point or on a downed person about to be ressed and doing loads of ranged AoE damage is more or less the only reason to take a Power Necro over say a Mesmer, Warr or Thief in Conquest. When all your damage is tied to DS, Lich and wep sets and your niche use of heavy AoE pressure is gone you’ve simply got less to offer than other classes. Necromancer’s attrition won’t work as intended for as long as other classes can regain health and/or disengage at the rate they currently can. This may or may not change with Reaper. We’ll see I suppose, not that Reaper possibly being good helps base Necromancer though.

Necros excel at inv stacking, boon ripping/conversion and condi transfer also fear applications thats why they would be desired. AoE constant pressure is Engi territory Staff is really the only weapon set that does a lot of “consistent” AoE pressure next to 2 Wells with huge CD but I do agree that Well Power Necro can put a ton of pressure on down enemies. Mostly because they are stationary and for a total of 11sec using both Wells and once you’ve used those two Well your basically dead. Spectral Wall can be just as effective to get a stomp or fear enemy allies from reviving or Corrosive Poison Cloud and poison applications on down opponents because it affects the speed of heals but poison applications aren’t really a power thing. The power build posted on MetaBattle is a one skill burst build once your done you really don’t have any defenses which is not using the attrition style of Necro and your not really holding down a point too long with Well Power Necro because well duration is very short in total you have 11 sec of control and then your in CD which is really ineffective imo and leaves you completely open to be ganked.

Power build doesn’t mean 1 hit burst only. Power builds can be many things and can still be preferred over thief or mesmer for example because they have a lot more sustain EVEN on a Marauder Amulet while still having massive damage and boon/condi manipulation but Thief and Mesmer will always win the 1 hit burst race against Necro because of all the disengages (but power necros can do what they can’t by staying in combat because of sustain) they have they just plain do it better (because its not stationary) . In fact Spectral Power builds are way more effective in winning fights in PvP then Well Power builds because they offer a lot more survivability/mobility and thus can stay in the fights longer with its massive LF generation (DS uptime), boon conversions and inv applications all while still hitting like a truck.

In summary Well Power Necro offer 1 skill burst with no mobility because once the Wells are used they are stationary whiles Spectral Power Builds have a lot more mobility DS uptime and consistent pressure. But really it all comes down to play style but I think Spectral Power builds work better with the attrition nature of Necros.

Zoso.8279:

Necros excel at inv stacking, boon ripping/conversion and condi transfer also fear applications thats why they would be desired. AoE constant pressure is Engi territory

What’s inv stacking? I’ll have you know my inventory is stacked enough as it is. As for boon ripping, Mesmer brings that on top of portal, great burst and mobility. Boon corruption is nice though, we should have more of it. Condi transfers are dependant on the enemy setup, Even with the current Ele/Ele/Mes/Thief/Engi setups we see on EU top tier no one brings a Necro for the condi transfers or boon rips. I also never said constant AoE. I said heavy aoe pressure, Engi AoE doesn’t come close to the amount of damage 2 wells + life transfer does in a short period of time.

Zoso.8279:

Mostly because they are stationary and for a total of 11sec using both Wells and once you’ve used those two Well your basically dead.

Or the opponent is dead instead, which is arguably the point of the build.

Zoso.8279:

Spectral Wall can be just as effective to get a stomp or fear enemy allies from reviving

Spectral Wall is countered by something as small as a single stack of Stability, ain’t stopping no ress against half decent opponents with Spec Wall. I do like the skill though. I feel it should do something more. Maybe move around with you like the Revenant projectile reflect thing. Or destroy projectiles.

Zoso.8279:

Corrosive Poison Cloud and poison applications on down opponents because it affects the speed of heals but poison applications aren’t really a power thing.

I tried CPC for a whole day once. The self-inflicted weakness is worse than hitler on a power build.

Zoso.8279:

The power build posted on MetaBattle is a one skill burst build once your done you really don’t have any defenses which is not using the attrition style of Necro

I’ve said it before and I’m saying it again, the general sustain of other classes is too great for an attritive playstyle to work well.

Zoso.8279:

and your not really holding down a point too long with Well Power Necro because well duration is very short in total you have 11 sec of control and then your in CD which is really ineffective imo and leaves you completely open to be ganked.

Well, the general idea is to +1 fights to end them quickly, not to be a bruiser like Ele.

Zoso.8279:

Power build doesn’t mean 1 hit burst only. Power builds can be many things and can still be preferred over thief or mesmer for example because they have a lot more sustain EVEN on a Marauder Amulet while still having massive damage and boon/condi manipulation

Or you could just grab a Warr and get some great CC and mobility instead on top of some pretty good ressing/stomping capabilities. With better sustain as well.

Zoso.8279:

but Thief and Mesmer will always win the 1 hit burst race against Necro because of all the disengages (but power necros can do what they can’t by staying in combat) they have they just plain do it better. In fact Spectral Power builds are way more effective in winning fights

Not in my experience(Edit: the second part that is). Though 4k~ matches is pretty lackluster compared to a lot of the folks here. Still enough to form an opinion imo.

Zoso.8279:

in PvP then Well Power builds because they offer a lot more survivability/mobility and thus can stay in the fights longer with its massive LF generation (DS uptime), boon conversions and inv applications all while still hitting like a truck.

I will assume you mean Vulnerability when you say “inv”, which Mesmer and Engi both do better on top of doing other things. Warrior has great sustain to stay on point, hits like a truck while also being incredibly mobile. Why bring a Necro over either of those?

Zoso.8279:

In summary Well Power Necro offer 1 skill burst with no mobility because once the Wells are used they are stationary whiles Spectral Power Builds have a lot more mobility DS uptime and consistent pressure.

And none of that is worth taking over what another class can offer.

Quick thing:

Boon Corruption doesn’t have some amazing edge over Boon Strip in current PvP.

Corrupted Boon is, mostly, mediocre DoT Condition. And we know how powerful Conditions with low stacks in PvP are.

@Aktium yeah I mean vulnerability lol!!! Been up all night x.x

On topic you can’t compare Mesmer boon removal to Necro because Necro just plain does it better. Mesmer has a total of 4 skills both weapon and utilities that remove boons and 1 trait that can remove up to 3 at a time in comparison to Necro that has 6 weapon and utilities that remove or convert boons and 2 traits that both convert 2 boons to conditions. We both agree that Mesmer has better mobility and burst potential with some neat team support. But Necro has sustain, vul and soft CC so they are able to apply consistent pressure. Heavy AoE pressure is great but since we are talking about wells the fact that they are stationary means its chances of missing are pretty high because enemies can just move away from the area and we both know as Necro players that the second we start using life transfer more times then not we get CC’d.

Completely agree Well Power Necro is a burst build high risk/high reward. True that Stab can counter fears but Necros have a lot of access to boon removal so removing stability shouldn’t be a huge task for an experienced Necro also anything thats balanced has counter play to it so that you have to work a little to be able to land all your skills. I won’t get mad if Spectral Wall always stayed in front of me XD lol would be OP as kitten though. Agreed was giving CPC as an example for downstate pressure but its definitely more a condi build Utility.

Warriors are very good counters to Necros because they have their own form of invulnerability (lol) and high CC which is a complete counter to Necros but Spectral Power Necros have good damage mitigation so can counter most classes because of others classes reliance of boons. Spectral Necros can apply sustained heavy pressure so imo in a +1 situation can more effectively beat the enemy because its a more controlled pressure compared to setting a well on the area and trying to force the enemy to stand inside. Like I said before I’ve always thought Warriors were great counters to Necros with amazing CC but they aren’t as effective against boon heavy builds which Necros can basically melt. Well Power Necros are better at team fights because of the AoE pressure but their chances to miss are a lot higher then Spectral Power Necros which can be just as effective imo in teams fights but are more single target focused and have a lot more sustain. But let me just say both are completely viable the playing styles are different I’m just giving my opinion on why I think Spectral Power Necros are a bit more reliable.

Necro can apply more vul then both Engi and Warrior but Warrior has more sustain then Necros and Engi have better AoE pressure. Necro excels at vulnerability, Boon removal and soft CC can completely counter stealth with its AoE pressure and can burst down almost any boon heavy build the point I’m trying to make is Spectral Power Necro is viable just underrated. And of course anything thats balanced is going to have counters. :P Fun discussion.

Zoso.8279:

On topic you can’t compare Mesmer boon removal to Necro because Necro just plain does it better. Mesmer has a total of 4 skills both weapon and utilities that remove boons and 1 trait that can remove up to 3 at a time in comparison to Necro that has 6 weapon and utilities that remove or convert boons and 2 traits that both convert 2 boons to conditions.

Shatters can remove up to 4 at a time due to baseline IP, not 3. Also, by pure math Mesmer can remove 98 boons per minute if you were to grab everything boonrip related and have 3 clones for every shatter. Necro in comparison can only rip 65 boons per minute. On paper of course. The point is, boonrips are mostly irrelevant aside from when Stability needs to be removed. And Mesmers can deal with that part easily either through burning the stacks with cc’s or ripping them with the few boonrips they have from Shatters/Sword auto/GS3.

Zoso.8279:

and we both know as Necro players that the second we start using life transfer more times then not we get CC’d.

Well, if you sacrifice a sigil slot for Rage sigil you can switch to that set just before you hop into DS and use it with Quickness.

Zoso.8279:

Warriors are very good counters to Necros because they have their own form of invulnerability (lol) and high CC which is a complete counter to Necros but Spectral Power Necros have good damage mitigation so can counter most classes because of others classes reliance of boons. Like I said before I’ve always thought Warriors were great counters to Necros with amazing CC but they aren’t as effective against boon heavy builds which Necros can basically melt.

I didn’t really bring up Warrior as a counter to Necro. I brought them up because without the niche use of Wells, Power Necro and the current iteration of Ham/GS Warrs end up doing the same role. Except Warrior’s CC and mobility is more valuable than Necro’s boonrips on pretty much any comp. It’s better to just bring your own boons to level the playing field and then outplay the opponent than to try and remove the enemies boons.

Zoso.8279:

Well Power Necros are better at team fights because of the AoE pressure but their chances to miss are a lot higher then Spectral Power Necros which can be just as effective imo in teams fights but are more single target focused and have a lot more sustain. But let me just say both are completely viable the playing styles are different I’m just giving my opinion on why I think Spectral Power Necros are a bit more reliable

I’m not saying Spectral Power Nec is flatout bad here, I’m saying it competes with other classes for a role that the other classes do better. That makes it bad for anything but casual fun. I had fun once, it was awful.

Zoso.8279:

Necro can apply more vul then both Engi

Ay have you you ever seen the amount of Vulnerability Engis kitten out with Steel-Packed Powder? Axe and traited Life Blast doesn’t hold a candle to that trait.

@Aktium

Necros are the best at boon conversion man IDK what to tell you it just is. We’re talking about actual possible builds… Boon conversion is extremely relevant considering how many classes use boon stacking which is the reason why Warriors and Necro don’t share the same role and you said it yourself all you need to counter CC is stability. If you go boon stack for boon stack then you end up with a stalemate situation where eventually someone will have to come +1 assuming both players are at the same level. Axe/Focus with Sigil of frailty stacks vulnerability pretty fast.

Shouldn’t a heavy beat a light….

Cash.2385:

Shouldn’t a heavy beat a light….

If they stand in one spot and do nothing but press 1, then yeah, probably.

Cash.2385:

Shouldn’t a heavy beat a light….

Totally, Balance 101.

Zoso.8279:

Necros are the best at boon conversion man IDK what to tell you it just is. We’re talking about actual possible builds…

I know. That’s why I said on paper. No Mesmer runs Null Field and Arcane Thievery at the same time. If they run either at all. The point is that Mesmers get a decent amount of boonrips from Shattered Concentration, GS3, Sword 1 with very little investment. Necro absolutely needs PoC and SoS to have decent rips, both being traits that require you to invest a lot more to be good than Shattered Concentration. Without these investments Necro has worse boonrip capabilities.

Zoso.8279:

Boon conversion is extremely relevant considering how many classes use boon stacking

It wasn’t very relevant pre-Might nerf, it ain’t very relevant now.

Zoso.8279:

which is the reason why Warriors and Necro don’t share the same role and you said it yourself all you need to counter CC is stability.

Warrior CC and Spectral Wall are not quite the same thing. Spec Wall does absolutely nothing if you have Stability, Hammer CCs still do a good amount of damage even when the CC isn’t doing anything.

Zoso.8279:

If you go boon stack for boon stack then you end up with a stalemate situation where eventually someone will have to come +1 assuming both players are at the same level.

This just means the team with the better rotations and strats wins.

Zoso.8279:

Axe/Focus with Sigil of frailty stacks vulnerability pretty fast.

Yeah but it’s Axe and you’re wasting a sigil slot on Frailty. Steel-Packed Powder for Engi and Illusion of Vulnerbility+Dazzling for Mesmer are just sort of there.

@Aktium

Oh sorry XP

Focus 5 is only one skill on a weapon set that removes up to 3 boons while doing spike damage and the depth of traits and commitment required I think is proof that boon rip is a big part of the Necro theme. I remember a lot of stalemate fights especially in high tier play. Funny enough you can trait fears to do quite a bit of damage and with the abundance of boon rip that Necros have its pretty “easy” (lol depends on the opponent) to remove stability if you have experience with the class. Agreed rotations and strats is how you win in PvP. Axe auto applies 2 stacks of vul and focus also stacks a bunch which is less of an investment then a whole trait line.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Sagat.3285:

The cele signet is decent at best it doesn’t cure flaws and is quite situational just countering ele is not a valid reason to call it really strong. MM is where it’s at that will always be necro’s most potent spec but obviously it’s limited due to AI patterns.

Actually, having a spec that counters a build that is considered OP IS a pretty valid reason. Yes, the class may not be perfect, but it has a role. I’m considering specing my Necro for Anti-Ele and swapping to it whenever I see a Ele on the enemy team. Even if it’s only moderately effective against other classes, taking the OP class out of the picture is super valuable.

what changes are you referring to for an anti-ele build? the standard cele signet build seems to be as anti-ele as it can get (although i swap locust for corrupt boon)

At an optimal level of play with the most effective builds (cele/sig for necro atm) it’s only slightly weaker than the other two classes.

But we’re in the best place we’ve been in ages so let’s just be happy.

Lopez.7369:

I honestly have no idea what people think the celestial signet build has over conditions. The celestial build does less damage, requires melee range to be at its most effective, and corrupts less. It also relies on a much worse heal without the advantage of Consume Condition’s short cooldown. (Using scepter auto to get one blind off is not the end of the world.) It’s just bewildering to me.

People tend to imitate what they see the top players use. So even if condition necro is objectively better than celestial, we cannot prove it unless we see a team run condi necro it at least somewhat successfully in higher tiers.

As for cele, its main advantage over condi necro is life force generation and sustained damage compared to burst damage. Condi necro does have better burst pressure, but lack of life force generation, and the fact that all the best traits in curses occupy the same tier, really hurt it in my opinion. I do think condi necro has potential though, its just that teams haven’t run it, in part because people look to Noscoc as a guide for what to do to make necro work in higher tier, since he has proven that it can work at that level.

As to why he’s using cele over condi, which in turn is why everyone else is using cele over condi, I think the reason lies in the Abjured’s team comp. Phantaram and Wakkey are a bit flexible in the classes they are willing to play, as while they both play ele now, they’ve run guard and warrior in the past meta. Chaithh and Nos aren’t as flexible in what they want to play. While they will change their builds, they only truly play the classes that they main. Now due to engi trait changes, and the power creep of the meta, cele engineer is now widely believed to be unviable, whereas it was very strong prepatch. Since chaith couldn’t maintain the same exact role of a cele engi, he had real two choices as an Engi. Either play the soldiers build used on EU and have similar survivability to the old cele engi but rather poor offensive pressure (many former cele engi mains find it dull and boring), or make his own build that was DPS oriented. He took the second option. In the past Nos ran either terrormancer or power wells based on the meta, but I think that because the division of roles on his team became different, he decided to use cele instead so it would give his team a similar balance of tanky roles vs. offensive roles as before. In the past they had a shoutbow that could allow 3 DPS and 2 Tanky to work because the pre-nerfed shoutbow had arguably better support than what eles do now, but since Shoutbow isn’t viable, they went double ele, so a tanky necro build just seems to fit their comp better.

Anyway that is my analysis on the situation as a whole. Basically the cele necro build came to be as a result of meta changes across multiple classes for the dominant team on NA. I think condi necro could be a strong choice in higher tier, but right now it just seems that cele is easier to fit into a team simply because it can live longer when focused.

Plus, there’s the fact that a Cele signet Necro actually does something in teamfights while a condition Necro is pretty useless there due to single target nature and mass cleansing.

I also think condi reaper could be better. This is due to damaging chill, a way to actually use Dhuumfire and the fact that the shout heal is low CD and gives you life force.

AoE corruption from Signet of the Locust, plus a strong second heal, vastly improved life force generation, third heal skill on Dagger 2, and a useful spiking tool in Signet of Vampirism.

Drastically improved sustain and utility over a condi build. If the Celestial build is running Warhorn, the AoE daze is a more powerful control tool than a condi build can provide, and the Locust Swarm pulsing cripple easily eats up cleanse slots without care.

The weakness provided by off-hand dagger isn’t important due to Weakening Shroud and the extra transfer isn’t vital due to double Plague Signet.

Lopez.7369:

I can see the celestial signet build having more survivability once it’s being attacked, although I think it also exposes itself to being attacked much more than the condition build since it requires melee range.

My worry is the damage. I think the celestial signet build’s damage is poor, while conditions can do a lot more, especially with Corrupt Boon. And I don’t feel like the condition build is so lacking in survivability (especially with 20-second-cooldown Consume Conditions) that it should really worry about giving up so much damage for some survivability.

Celestial Signet mightstacks well. Damage isn’t an issue.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lopez.7369:

I can see the celestial signet build having more survivability once it’s being attacked, although I think it also exposes itself to being attacked much more than the condition build since it requires melee range.

My worry is the damage. I think the celestial signet build’s damage is poor, while conditions can do a lot more, especially with Corrupt Boon. And I don’t feel like the condition build is so lacking in survivability (especially with 20-second-cooldown Consume Conditions) that it should really worry about giving up so much damage for some survivability.

Celestial Signet mightstacks well. Damage isn’t an issue.

Yeah and most of the damage comes from Death Perception boosted autos that are backed by that really good ferocity stat.

Celestial Signet Necromancer > rearlite

Lopez.7369:

I can see the celestial signet build having more survivability once it’s being attacked, although I think it also exposes itself to being attacked much more than the condition build since it requires melee range.

My worry is the damage. I think the celestial signet build’s damage is poor, while conditions can do a lot more, especially with Corrupt Boon. And I don’t feel like the condition build is so lacking in survivability (especially with 20-second-cooldown Consume Conditions) that it should really worry about giving up so much damage for some survivability.

20+ might stacks at all time with the damage boost from Strength runes really gets you far in terms of damage. Further than the condi build against players who actually use condi removal.

In addition, the cele signet build has a less selfish heal, amazing life force generation (and makes a better use of the shroud), more mobility, and is overall more fun imo, which can also explain its “popularity”. Using the brackets because you rarely see this build in EU: all I see are power, signet condi, or even MM necros.

Aktium.9506:

I know. That’s why I said on paper. No Mesmer runs Null Field and Arcane Thievery at the same time. If they run either at all. The point is that Mesmers get a decent amount of boonrips from Shattered Concentration, GS3, Sword 1 with very little investment. Necro absolutely needs PoC and SoS to have decent rips, both being traits that require you to invest a lot more to be good than Shattered Concentration. Without these investments Necro has worse boonrip capabilities.

Sword 1? Really? GS3 with 1 boon removal?
Only Shattered Concentration is somehow relevant. Though with tendency of illusions to die very fast is more likely you would mostly 2-4 boons been removed through shatter combo. Vigor nerf hits DE fueling hard.
Necros are more reliable at boon ripping imho.

Lopez.7369:

Hm. I think you guys are right now that I’m giving the celestial build a serious shot.

I think the problem might be that scepter is just not a good weapon. Kind of a bummer.

yeah thats a huge part of it. I tried running the cele build with scepter/dagger instead of staff, and overall it was just a bit on the subpar side, mainly due to its lackluster life force generation.

And I feel as though the scepter’s condi stacking potential is a bit weak, but then again, most 1-handed condi weapons tend to be that way. Mesmer scepter is only better in my eyes since it can burst torment and confusion while necro scepter is a bit too slow in its condi application in comparison, which is why terror and/or boon corrupts need to make up for that.

I think reaper could “save” condi necro. Having damaging chill (which looks to do about 2/3rd of terror per tick below 50%) and AoE stackable dhuumfire and a low cooldown heal that gives you life force could make it a viable choice again, by giving it overall better condi output and survivability.

Necros are actually really good right now. Now sure if the OP has played since the update.

Zoso.8279:

@Aktium

Oh sorry XP

Focus 5 is only one skill on a weapon set that removes up to 3 boons while doing spike damage and the depth of traits and commitment required I think is proof that boon rip is a big part of the Necro theme. I remember a lot of stalemate fights especially in high tier play. Funny enough you can trait fears to do quite a bit of damage and with the abundance of boon rip that Necros have its pretty “easy” (lol depends on the opponent) to remove stability if you have experience with the class. Agreed rotations and strats is how you win in PvP. Axe auto applies 2 stacks of vul and focus also stacks a bunch which is less of an investment then a whole trait line.

Good luck landing Spinal Shivers on Ele with Blinding Ashes or Mesmer.

Or most other professions, tbh.

Rym.1469:

Good luck landing Spinal Shivers on Ele with Blinding Ashes or Mesmer.

Or most other professions, tbh.

Sometimes, the surprise factor get some newbies: they see you cast something and dodge roll, at the end of the roll you’re still casting, they start to fear something big and go on a second dodge roll. After they emptied their whole endurance bar, Spinal Shivers finally lands.

Ara.4569:

Rym.1469:

Good luck landing Spinal Shivers on Ele with Blinding Ashes or Mesmer.

Or most other professions, tbh.

Sometimes, the surprise factor get some newbies: they see you cast something and dodge roll, at the end of the roll you’re still casting, they start to fear something big and go on a second dodge roll. After they emptied their whole endurance bar, Spinal Shivers finally lands.

Stow weapon is your friend also with the amount of fears that we Necros have available to us we can both make an opening or wait for one within the fight. But I do agree Focus is a pretty difficult weapon to master but once you do can be extremely powerful.

Tman.6349:

Nilkemia.8507:

Let’s see.

- No reflects/projectile mitigation, which both elementalists and mesmers have.

- No decent escapes for when you’re cornered/outmatched. Mesmers and elementalists have quite a few.

- No decent elites. Lich is a joke. Plague makes you harder to kill somewhat, but you’re also a bigger target. Flesh Golem doesn’t even attack half the time.

Admittedly, elementalist apparently also has weak elite skills as well, while mesmers stick to either Mass Invisibility or Moa Signet.

In addition to this, several other lingering problems like lack of reliable Stability and decent combo fields/finishers remain even now, leaving necromancers still subpar compared to the other two most of the time.

and yet, a good necro is strong both vs of these professions…

A good memser will destroy a powermancer of equal skill quickly in a 1v1, in a team fight being babysit a powermancer is incredibly survivable

A conditionmancer can be a major problem for a mesmer in a 1v1 but has most of its damage cleansed away in team fights and poses no threat to the mesmer there unless the mesmer has no shoutbow / d/d ele / other cleanse bot with them

Cele necros are vicious and can pose a problem for mesmers in a 1v1, but i believe they should lose the matchup most of the time.

Mak.2657:

Sword 1? Really? GS3 with 1 boon removal?
Only Shattered Concentration is somehow relevant. Though with tendency of illusions to die very fast is more likely you would mostly 2-4 boons been removed through shatter combo. Vigor nerf hits DE fueling hard.
Necros are more reliable at boon ripping imho.

They’re more reliable only if you factor in more than just weapon skills. GS3 on Mesmer is infinitely better than Axe 3 on Necro. Ain’t even a contest. I will admit though, through my own experience when playing Mesmer you very rarely auto attack with Sword, but if you really want those boons gone and shattering isn’t available the option is there. Spinal Shivs is great though, no complaints there.

We have a position in the meta to counter a class that has been a bit over the top for a while now. We have a build that focuses on what we are meant to do, corrupt boons. I’m fine with that. We counter and have counters, that’s what it should be. We have to think about our fights instead of blindly rushing in, thought process is good. This game needs more of that.
Yes we may lack ways to escape a fight easily but that’s because real men commit to a fight. Henceforth, nec is a man’s class, always has been.

meow one twenty.4376:

Tman.6349:

Nilkemia.8507:

Let’s see.

- No reflects/projectile mitigation, which both elementalists and mesmers have.

- No decent escapes for when you’re cornered/outmatched. Mesmers and elementalists have quite a few.

- No decent elites. Lich is a joke. Plague makes you harder to kill somewhat, but you’re also a bigger target. Flesh Golem doesn’t even attack half the time.

Admittedly, elementalist apparently also has weak elite skills as well, while mesmers stick to either Mass Invisibility or Moa Signet.

In addition to this, several other lingering problems like lack of reliable Stability and decent combo fields/finishers remain even now, leaving necromancers still subpar compared to the other two most of the time.

and yet, a good necro is strong both vs of these professions…

…nerf Axe auto?

Yeah, b/c that A/AA has carried many Necro to victory. Hehe

Necroes absolutely wreck just about every condi build any class has, they just throw your own condis right back at you which make shatter Mesmers who have burst condi and not a whole lot of condi clear, which makes them difficult to fight against unless you run PU which means you can avoid them turning it back on you

Sadrien.3470:

Tman.6349:

Nilkemia.8507:

Let’s see.

- No reflects/projectile mitigation, which both elementalists and mesmers have.

- No decent escapes for when you’re cornered/outmatched. Mesmers and elementalists have quite a few.

- No decent elites. Lich is a joke. Plague makes you harder to kill somewhat, but you’re also a bigger target. Flesh Golem doesn’t even attack half the time.

Admittedly, elementalist apparently also has weak elite skills as well, while mesmers stick to either Mass Invisibility or Moa Signet.

In addition to this, several other lingering problems like lack of reliable Stability and decent combo fields/finishers remain even now, leaving necromancers still subpar compared to the other two most of the time.

and yet, a good necro is strong both vs of these professions…

A good memser will destroy a powermancer of equal skill quickly in a 1v1, in a team fight being babysit a powermancer is incredibly survivable

A conditionmancer can be a major problem for a mesmer in a 1v1 but has most of its damage cleansed away in team fights and poses no threat to the mesmer there unless the mesmer has no shoutbow / d/d ele / other cleanse bot with them

Cele necros are vicious and can pose a problem for mesmers in a 1v1, but i believe they should lose the matchup most of the time.

Well maybe you’re ‘stretching’ this idea of ‘equally skilled’. Sorry, but you’re not being honest here if you’re claiming that there are many/any examples of an equally skilled matchup. I don’t even know where to go with the “Performance” (lmfao) upperhand while being carried in team fights. :/ Mesmer is just as crap, or more so in an actual competent teamfight.

Despite everyone going after Zoso for agreeing with me, I’m the one who challenged Ele and Mesmer’s domination right now and promptly pointed out that a good Necro will make most of them look silly.

It’s only sad to me that most Necros are trying to emulate the ‘Meta Build’ whiçh is only ‘pretty good vs everything’ BUT doesn’t have a real place/purpose. (No offense to Nos for ‘HIS build’ even though it’s one of the most obvious post-patch Necro builds in the game.) Especially considering we just came out of a ‘Celestial META’.

You read it here first, folks! It’s not a hard counter unless it completely and instantaneously explodes the other class outright, so even Meditation Guardians aren’t really hard counters to Dagger/Pistol Thieves because said Thieves can just run away after the initial burst!

Don’t we just make so much progress and totally not make ourselves look silly when we try and conveniently define terms otherwise of how they’ve already been established? /s

Nomad.9764:

Necroes absolutely wreck just about every condi build any class has, they just throw your own condis right back at you which make shatter Mesmers who have burst condi and not a whole lot of condi clear, which makes them difficult to fight against unless you run PU which means you can avoid them turning it back on you

Except Condi Mesmer’s, the strongest condi spec in in the game, can EASILY send several condis (of just 1 stack each; not to mention, if they’re smart, they’d sacrifice staff clones for this) to proc your passive (if they have clue what you’re using anyway) forcing you to actually use the rest of you transfers wisely. This seems to be rare for most Necros, so the Mesmer probably still has the upperhand. :/

Unfortunately for most Necros (possibly confused from Anet themselves), the Necro’s theoretical ‘attrition’ is not based on ‘try to tank a LONG time and kill your foe with condition damage!) This is made clear with Anets vision of quick, aggressive fights that is very much based on Active Combat (!). This doesn’t imply a ‘forced burst role’ (even though Necro is excellent at this (bottom tier/worst profession :/ lol).

GW2 ‘attrition’ is (notice all the strong AoE we have!?!) is based on our Active Combat System. And no, it’s not just the ‘second health bar’. This mindset is what it makes it SO incredibly difficult to ever take Lordrosicky’s “Plz buff Necro and nerf everything else!” serious at all. Claimng “Necro has ABSOLUTELY no ways to sustain outside of DS”.

Our Active Combat Atrittion: Now all of this would, of course, be completely neglecting! ‘near immunity’ to condis (mostly active, of course), our ridiculously strong access to great Weakness and Chill uptime (the two most powerful defensive condis in the game, by far), our awesome access to Boon Corruption, and or our excellent control on points (Necro is very strong in limited spaces).

" Oh man, I see that red circle but is it just gonna give me a couple Bleeds or is that gonna give me Chill, Poison, Weakness, and transfer w/e condis the Necro has to set me up for a burst?"

“Ha-ha, I dodged your Immobile, but wait, is that huge red circle just a smart Necro ‘BAITING me’ with Well of Power (plz learn these things Necros!!!), which will only give him boons, or is that a huge burst that I don’t want to have anything to do with!?!”

Tldr: Mesmer’s are excellent,best at condi specs and most Necros don’t have a clue what they’re doing, nor do they understand that GW2’s ’attrition is completely unique in their FAST-paced, ACTIVE combat system. (This is part of the reason Devs are sketch about buffing us too much,fas5.)

Just remember: for all this talk of a “fast -paced active combat system”, Necros are slow (especially on cast times) and have only two dodges (the same base two everyone has) for active defense. Hardly fitting the theme, there.

To be clear, the skills and traits I think need improvements are the ones that don’t see use. Skills like Spinal Shivers (the cast time is too long, reducing this won’t affect the Chill of Death trait at all), Well of Darkness (waaaayyy too long of a cooldown for its effect), Signet of Undeath, Corrosive Poison Cloud, and Shadow Fiend could all use improvements while traits like Soul Comprehension and (now) Chilling Darkness really need buffs due to being useless. These won’t change the current builds that are used, but every skill and trait I listed doesn’t get used (except Soul Comprehension due to it being a minor) in any game mode.

Necros are fantastic, if you know how to play it right. Basically the case with every class.