Guild Wars 2

Fire/air not proccing on auto attacks is actually quite clever solution as it would perhaps bring force sigil back to sustained dps builds, leaving fire/air to more burst oriented specs, thus separating these three design philosophy wise. It would also greatly increase counterplay. +1.

But this game is actually increasing rng, why would they try to decrease it? : O And please dont tell me that it is a bad design – you can say it about 90% of things in gw2 pvp.

Tage.7045:

Autoattacks shouldnt never ever have to make pressure and force u to use dodge or even waste one of ur def cds no matter with/vs what class no matter what amulet,runes but this happens a lot.

Fully agree with this. To me it seems completely counterintuitive to give auto-attacks such significant damage (even without sigil procs) when the primary defense mechanic in the game is a short-duration invulnerability (dodge).

This suggestion can not go by unnoticed again!
I remember approximately ½-1 year ago (or even more) there was a huge discussion in regards to this as well, and nothing was done.
Let’s see if we can make a change this time.
Not letting sigils proc on auto-attack might actually be a fairly easy solution.
There is a problem with this though, since should this apply to every sigil or just the on crit ones? What about sigil of doom or force?

Tage.7045:

11air11fire111air11fire111air > 111fire11air1111fire11 …

Autoattacks dmg are one of the things that should be changed and makes the game less “skillful” in many ways, makes the gameplay different.

People say that there is so much spam dodges. But why is that ?

People have to counter random dmg with random dodge. Autoattacks shouldnt never ever have to make pressure and force u to use dodge or even waste one of ur def cds no matter with/vs what class no matter what amulet,runes but this happens a lot.

It needs to be down, it doesnt let u to focus and dodge only important burst/off cds
from the enemy u have to just random dodge. Also AAs shouldnt proc with any offensive sigil. Even in the teamwork mechanics If AAs would do less dmg, players would even set up, sync their burst more. If its toned down u can even nerf vigor/energy.

The game should direct player to know all off abilities and counter it with dodge, sync the burst. Not by doing pressing 1. Try to count how many times u will have to waste dodge vs AA and gives some player advantage above u because of his AA + sig procs when u play next in 1V1s.

SAY NO TO RNG!

ok lil man if you want everything to be dodgeable and telegraphed better get your PEN AND PAPER OUT BECAUSE THERES ALOT TO CHANGE!

Actually, to me this sounds like one of the most well written arguements since… well, forever… I do not think I need to elaborate +1 to this

+1

/15 Char ……………

I completely agree, double procs are really broken. Anet removed dhuumfire for the same logic they just need to keep to that philosophy.

I don’t really see any major problems with double procs. shouldn’t we worry more about overpowered specs like cele engi and cele ele?

Booms.2594:

I don’t really see any major problems with double procs. shouldn’t we worry more about overpowered specs like cele engi and cele ele?

It is the issue of them working on Auto-attack – which means you gotta dodge those as well (and that is wrong :V)

I really do think Celestial specs need to be toned down, but this suggestion really gets my upvote as well

Dustin.2793:

Tage.7045:

11air11fire111air11fire111air > 111fire11air1111fire11 …

Autoattacks dmg are one of the things that should be changed and makes the game less “skillful” in many ways, makes the gameplay different.

People say that there is so much spam dodges. But why is that ?

People have to counter random dmg with random dodge. Autoattacks shouldnt never ever have to make pressure and force u to use dodge or even waste one of ur def cds no matter with/vs what class no matter what amulet,runes but this happens a lot.

It needs to be down, it doesnt let u to focus and dodge only important burst/off cds
from the enemy u have to just random dodge. Also AAs shouldnt proc with any offensive sigil. Even in the teamwork mechanics If AAs would do less dmg, players would even set up, sync their burst more. If its toned down u can even nerf vigor/energy.

The game should direct player to know all off abilities and counter it with dodge, sync the burst. Not by doing pressing 1. Try to count how many times u will have to waste dodge vs AA and gives some player advantage above u because of his AA + sig procs when u play next in 1V1s.

SAY NO TO RNG!

ok lil man if you want everything to be dodgeable and telegraphed better get your PEN AND PAPER OUT BECAUSE THERES ALOT TO CHANGE!

Pretty much this. If you want to eliminate RNG you have to rework the whole game , not just air/fire sigils.

The problem isn’t just RNG. A few classes are built around doing enough/all of their damage at a constant rate. This means using dodges in a rotation, rather than to dodge meaningful abilities, is the better way to play against these things because there isn’t anything meaningful to dodge. Dodging at any point against said opponents is just as valuable as dodging at any other point.

The perfect examples of this are builds like S/D thief and Power Necro. Both of them are just spamming a few abilities at a constant rate, and the stuff that is meaningful to dodge aren’t able to be reacted to (#3 ds fear, steal, etc). So against these classes you just use your dodges/cooldowns at a constant rate.

Most classes and specs are sort of like this but S/D thief and Power necros are the epitome of this. A more soft example, like you said tage, is mesmer. It can do enough damage on auto attacks to make you want to dodge, but you really want to save dodges for the big stuff like #2 gs and shatters. Most classes are soft examples like mesmer.

Other classes like condi Necro and hambow Warrior operate a little differently. Sure necro has a pretty strong auto attack in scepter but it’s not huge. Necro and Warrior operate by having very strong abilities on low cooldowns. Warrior has hammer CC/pindown and especially earthshaker on very low cooldowns and they all warrant dodging, thing is you’ll run out of dodges and eventually cooldowns. So against warrior you are essentially put on a timer where eventually he is going to put a big cc combo on you and you won’t have anything to stop it. Condi Necro is similar with very powerful abilities on low cooldowns where eventually you will run out of cooldowns/dodges and be dead.

So in the end with how much a lot of classes can dodge I don’t think its that big of a deal and having to deal with different classes specs differently and knowing how to use your dodges/cooldowns against them specifically is sort of interesting.

Like you said in the end of your post though Tage, the RNG factor of it is what makes it frustrating. Dodge one auto attack -> next one procs sigils on you -> don’t dodge the next few auto attacks because you know sigils won’t proc -> dodge another auto attack after 3s or so > next auto attack procs sigils on you. That sucks and makes dodging auto attacks have very little meaning specifically against classes with RNG attached to their auto attack.

An interesting temporary fix could be to make sigils not proc on auto attack :O dunno just throwing things out there off the top of my head.

I made many articles on the power of auto attacks and of how the sigil buffs will make this even worse. Months or even years ago. Nothing changed. And nothing will change. The game is good, but wanting it to be a good PvP experience is unrealistic for what is an MMO (aka, a game built around PvE)

i tend to find myself using strength and force sigils (combines with strength runes) more than air/fire recently,
the damage increase is massive, 10% just from force and the strength 6 piece bonus then even more from the power bonus you maintain (usually atleast 175).

Liewec.2896:

i tend to find myself using strength and force sigils (combines with strength runes) more than air/fire recently,
the damage increase is massive, 10% just from force and the strength 6 piece bonus then even more from the power bonus you maintain (usually atleast 175).

Air is way more damage than force by a long shot on any berserker amulet build.

I would stress though that Fire+Air as a concept needs removing not just taken from auto attacks – if you leave it open for special attacks to proc both you’ll have stupid spikes still.

I completely agree.

This actually sounds pretty good. The only thing I can think of is proccing these off of really easy to hit skills such as pistol engi skills, but even then if you keep distance you can just dodge it and they won’t necessarily proc.

+1 definitely. Great and elegant solution to a huge issue.

What a kittened thread.
Nerfing autoattack in the way you suggested without counterbalancing anything in return (since you made no suggestions to counterbalance abilities to make up for the lack of damage) would render the few meta classes who actually autoattack for DPS (Thief, Mesmer) useless in terms of consistent damage output and destroy pretty much most of the non-meta builds for Warriors and so on.

But hey, if you want the meta to shift to condi, your idea is brilliant.

P.S: While it is clear that autoattacks with Fire/Air are an issue, the necessary amount of balancing needed to make up for them is just through the roof.

Phantaram.1265:

A more soft example, like you said tage, is mesmer. It can do enough damage on auto attacks to make you want to dodge, but you really want to save dodges for the big stuff like #2 gs and shatters. Most classes are soft examples like mesmer.

Unless I’m mistaken, the mesmer greatsword auto aftercast can be bypassed in which case 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon air 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon fire > 11air11fire.

Amstel Steel.2058:

Phantaram.1265:

A more soft example, like you said tage, is mesmer. It can do enough damage on auto attacks to make you want to dodge, but you really want to save dodges for the big stuff like #2 gs and shatters. Most classes are soft examples like mesmer.

Unless I’m mistaken, the mesmer greatsword auto aftercast can be bypassed in which case 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon air 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon fire > 11air11fire.

Is there a point you’re trying to make? Or did you just quote me and then make a random statement.

i think we can all agree that the RNG factor of this game in a competitive environment like pvp (and wvw to some extent) is too high. i do not have a solution ready, but i really do think, that especially the top players of this game should definitely be more involved in the balancing discussion. now, the forum is a great place to share ideas and discuss them, but to be honest, there are way too many threads about nerf this and that as it is. there needs to be a secluded area for people who actually know what they are talking about (not counting myself in there ofc, so don’t go all rage mode on me).

lately, there’s been a significant increase of forum activity by EU and NA top tier teams and players, this should show devs and players alike that, although the balancing improves with each feature pack (imo), the goal is far from reached and there HAS to be more customer interaction coming from anet. especially now that gw2 is slowly becoming the ehspurtz it always aimed to be.

sorry if i got a little offtopic here

Great idea, except for the fact that it wouldnt do a thing to classes not based on autos. So basically all those thieves running fire/air sigils would move to doing it on s/f eles.

+1 to this problem needing to be addressed
-1 to this particular idea

This would nerf ranger even deeper into oblivion.

would also nerf my medi guard which is already struggling in this meta, but only vs classes that dont use air/fire.
and btw if we do this I think we need to make stuff like doom wont work on autos as well and geomancy has a wind up.

This would destroy s/d thief in general. We rely on auto-attacks due the 3 nerf/‘alter’.
5 ain’t gonna kill u, 4 ain’t gonna kill u, 3 ain’t gonna kill u, 2 ain’t gonna kill u but skill 1 is what we use most of the time now to kill someone. taking this away would destroy thiefs. Even d/p thiefs actually rely on their 1 aswel (not talking about 222222scrubs)..

Phantaram.1265:

Amstel Steel.2058:

Phantaram.1265:

A more soft example, like you said tage, is mesmer. It can do enough damage on auto attacks to make you want to dodge, but you really want to save dodges for the big stuff like #2 gs and shatters. Most classes are soft examples like mesmer.

Unless I’m mistaken, the mesmer greatsword auto aftercast can be bypassed in which case 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon air 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon fire > 11air11fire.

Is there a point you’re trying to make? Or did you just quote me and then make a random statement.

Why would you think it was a random statement? I was agreeing with the excerpt while clarifying what the op was discussing to further drive the topic. Why talk about auto attacks and sigil procs only to say stow weapon is random?

+1 to everything he said there

Kitten sigils, the only thing that needs nerfing is Tage. Tage OP.

Srsly tho, I like the suggestion that sigils would only proc on skills, not auto attacks. I’m a sucker for any and all suggestions that help to reduce the passive RNG in PvP. I don’t main thief, but I have a little over 1,000 games on it, and every time I jump someone, I’m hoping for the sigil procs to finish the job. And to be honest, it’s not really the kind of gameplay mechanic I like – ideally, I’d like to actively beat someone using my skills, instead of randomly zapping someone with sigils for the needed damage.

Still, I also agree that a change such as this can’t happen in a vacuum. Additional balancing is needed in order to keep certain classes and specs viable. But as long as Anet balances properly, I’m all for it. They should probably normalize auto attack damage while they’re at it.

That’s a pretty cool idea, especially when you play something like *cough*Guardian*cough*, Elementalist or Engineer, where – especially in pvp – you don’t autoattack too often, because you can roll through bazillion of other keys or dps is just a filler, not main role.

But what about Ranger? The damage comes mostly from 1-2 skills including chained aa and the rest of weapon skills are usually utility/evasion.

About Necromancer? You suggest that Life Blast and Dagger #1, the main dps sources of Necro, should be nerfed in dps just because they’re autoattacks?

And what would we get in exchange?

I think your view gets a little rusty when your scope is Wave of Wrath.

If you want to change this thing, better be Clinton in NCsoft and convince them, cuz it would require re-doing the game. And money.

So rob a bank or two.

I assume you are talking about Power Necro in this post. Now I can understand that from the perspective of someone who most likely loaded up and got rekt by someone “pressing 1” that it must be easy and skill less and for that specific reason wrote your post.

Now first of all I main power necro and play it in high level Tournament games. I rely heavily on fire and air procs to do damage, the only alternative would be strength runes and strength and battle sigils which would cripple most power necro builds. Thiefs, power ranges and basically most classes that utilize power and crit as a main stat really rely on these types of procs.

If you were to encounter a power class in a structured pvp match and were afraid of getting hit with fire and air procs I would suggest the in game mechanic that pretty much destroys it. Take the fact that these procs occur “on crit”, that means if you apply weakness or go into earth on ele and take the “no crit” trait or otherwise spec to make it hard for the enemy to crit you would be much better off than making baseless arguments on the forum.

Rym.1469:

That’s a pretty cool idea, especially when you play something like *cough*Guardian*cough*, Elementalist or Engineer, where – especially in pvp – you don’t autoattack too often, because you can roll through bazillion of other keys or dps is just a filler, not main role.

But what about Ranger? The damage comes mostly from 1-2 skills including chained aa and the rest of weapon skills are usually utility/evasion.

About Necromancer? You suggest that Life Blast and Dagger #1, the main dps sources of Necro, should be nerfed in dps just because they’re autoattacks?

And what would we get in exchange?

I think your view gets a little rusty when your scope is Wave of Wrath.

If you want to change this thing, better be Clinton in NCsoft and convince them, cuz it would require re-doing the game. And money.

So rob a bank or two.

was the guardian part suppose to be sarcastic? because 80% of guardian dmg is auto attacks

Firebird.8324:

I would suggest the in game mechanic that pretty much destroys it. Take the fact that these procs occur “on crit”, that means if you apply weakness or go into earth on ele and take the “no crit” trait or otherwise spec to make it hard for the enemy to crit you would be much better off than making baseless arguments on the forum.

That’s the worst advice I’ve ever heard.

Of course people with weakness will attempt to keep it on as much as possible. Most can’t. Use Stone Heart grandmaster on Elementalist? Okay, solid advice, the probability of that ever happening is a steady 0%.

Air and Fire sigils should spread damage instead adding it.

If you hit for 2K with the auto attack, Fire will make it so the 2K goes to up to 5 additional enemies within 240 radius, air to up to 3 within 900 radius.

Chaith.8256:

Firebird.8324:

I would suggest the in game mechanic that pretty much destroys it. Take the fact that these procs occur “on crit”, that means if you apply weakness or go into earth on ele and take the “no crit” trait or otherwise spec to make it hard for the enemy to crit you would be much better off than making baseless arguments on the forum.

That’s the worst advice I’ve ever heard.

Of course people with weakness will attempt to keep it on as much as possible. Most can’t. Use Stone Heart grandmaster on Elementalist? Okay, solid advice, the probability of that ever happening is a steady 0%.

not the zerker’s fault that youre specced for killing condis

Tage.7045:

Autoattacks shouldnt never ever have to make pressure and force u to use dodge or even waste one of ur def cds no matter with/vs what class no matter what amulet,runes but this happens a lot.

It needs to be down, it doesnt let u to focus and dodge only important burst/off cds
from the enemy u have to just random dodge. Also AAs shouldnt proc with any offensive sigil. Even in the teamwork mechanics If AAs would do less dmg, players would even set up, sync their burst more.

100% agree with nerfing sigil of air and fire. Enough with faceroll passive-rng dmg procs.

Booms.2594:

not the zerker’s fault that youre specced for killing condis

Lmfao

Not being specced into Stone Heart is part of being specced into something that can actually function in PvP. The meta builds do quite better against zerkers, I can assure you.

That’s like telling a Mesmer to l2P and use all the condi removal traits if they are depressed about dying to conditions. Useless.

Weakness is pretty hard to come by, and can get removed. It’s definitely not a matter of being built to kill condition builds instead of zerker builds.

This is actually hilarious watching people try to act like there’s abundant counters to Fire & Air sigils. I’m not even strongly against them, because I don’t think a moderate level of unavoidable damage is bad for the game. But don’t act like they’re shut down by someone bringing a troll build with a ton of weakness, or Stone Heart Eles, lmfao.

I think this is two separate issues, but author bias also needs to be taken into account. These “extra procs” while RNG, DO put a timer on fights as they push the balance of dps just above sustain, so bunkers are less powerful. So of course, nerfing sustained damage output is a HUGE buff for a bunker guardian main, making it virtually unkillable when played very well.

That being said, it is frustrating for anyone when you get hit with a random mesmer GS auto + air + fire and 1/2 your life is gone from 1 auto. It is also completely unavoidable, and as stated makes certain sigils overly strong. Sure, force might do more damage if stand there landing every attack in a sustained damage spec, but air is a GUARANTEED hit, so you don’t lose damage when something is dodged. In order to rectify this, I would LOVE to have procs tied to specific skills, or kinds of skills (like dhuumfire was) depending on the usage intent. Is a skill meant to burst? Maybe it only procs on the #4-5 skills. Incendiary powder is meant to improve engineer poke damage? Perhaps it only gets a single chance to procs from an autoattack. On-swap sigils meant to provide an on-demand application? Maybe it should only get 1 chance to proc. after a swap.

I also get annoyed by things like stow-weapon on abilities making them much stronger than they should. The biggest offenders are ele lightning whip and memser GS auto. Perhaps just move the SoR proc (for ele) to the end of the LW skill, and remove the mesmer after-cast and spread the damage out over the whole duration.

BlackBeard.2873:

I also get annoyed by things like stow-weapon on abilities making them much stronger than they should. The biggest offenders are ele lightning whip and memser GS auto. Perhaps just move the SoR proc (for ele) to the end of the LW skill, and remove the mesmer after-cast and spread the damage out over the whole duration.

Stow weapon to increase raw dps and sustain churns my stomach as well. I am really put off by the idea of having to do that to maximize your competitiveness.

chaith why are you even talking when you play the 2nd most broken spec in the game? and btw the first most broken spec also uses neither air nor fire sigils. like seriously I’m trying to understand why youre complaining about it but i really dont know.

+1!
Would go as far to say nothing procs from AA.
No traits, sigils or runes.

Best regards!

This sounds fine, but there would need to be a re-balancing of attacks to make up for the dps loss in some cases if traits and sigils didn’t proc from auto attacks. Or they could just revert back to the single sigil procs since that was working fine before.

Booms.2594:

chaith why are you even talking when you play the 2nd most broken spec in the game? and btw the first most broken spec also uses neither air nor fire sigils. like seriously I’m trying to understand why youre complaining about it but i really dont know.

You seem to never get tired of making bad points. I’m posting because I wasn’t going to let that “use stone heart” gem pass by. It’s got nothing to do with the fact that my builds are perceived as broken or not. Also if you read, you’d know I don’t complain once about fire/air. I think in light of incendiary powder, nightmare runes, etc, fire/air raise zerker builds so there is a similar component of damage that can’t simply be dodge rolled.

+1 (x 10^32)
I pointed this out few balance patches ago, i mean the passive overdamaging stuff.

To answer Sizer : I’d go for a total remove of passive procs and rework the damage in active skills (if it have to be in thief auto let it be).

(i think runes / sigils should be things you get a little bonnus from doing certain kind of actions (heal , stomp ,stealth , interupt , …) , but in no way determinate the way a class is played and absolutely not with passive things.)

Second thing (i know it’s not the subject here) i’d like to see more things thans just damage … the game seems balanced about damage (exept bunker) about 80% of skill as damage bound to it.

(But there are no mechanics like black out & Esurge messmer , Presuring with ranger poison and interupts , necro sending back deep wounds and saving your backliners & sustaining trought liffe siphon , Prot monks preventing burst with Protective spirit , etc … where each class had a real identity and a defined role to play . ( there is still some spirit of protecting , debuffing , etc , but it’s a bonus to the damage output not realy a thing played on it self.))

Chaith.8256:

Booms.2594:

chaith why are you even talking when you play the 2nd most broken spec in the game? and btw the first most broken spec also uses neither air nor fire sigils. like seriously I’m trying to understand why youre complaining about it but i really dont know.

You seem to never get tired of making bad points. I’m posting because I wasn’t going to let that “use stone heart” gem pass by. It’s got nothing to do with the fact that my builds are perceived as broken or not. Also if you read, you’d know I don’t complain once about fire/air. I think in light of incendiary powder, nightmare runes, etc, fire/air raise zerker builds so there is a similar component of damage that can’t simply be dodge rolled.

IP was put in there to make up for the rubbish aa damage and can be cleansed. Nightmare runes fear you can stunbreak out of. Fire/air not so similar other than it’s RNG.

I don’t personally have much of a problem with fire/air, but I can understand why others don’t like it since it can be so much of a random immediate burst.

Aberrant.6749:

Chaith.8256:

Booms.2594:

chaith why are you even talking when you play the 2nd most broken spec in the game? and btw the first most broken spec also uses neither air nor fire sigils. like seriously I’m trying to understand why youre complaining about it but i really dont know.

You seem to never get tired of making bad points. I’m posting because I wasn’t going to let that “use stone heart” gem pass by. It’s got nothing to do with the fact that my builds are perceived as broken or not. Also if you read, you’d know I don’t complain once about fire/air. I think in light of incendiary powder, nightmare runes, etc, fire/air raise zerker builds so there is a similar component of damage that can’t simply be dodge rolled.

IP was put in there to make up for the rubbish aa damage and can be cleansed. Nightmare runes fear you can stunbreak out of. Fire/air not so similar other than it’s RNG.

I don’t personally have much of a problem with fire/air, but I can understand why others don’t like it since it can be so much of a random immediate burst.

Indeed, there’s the option to counter with condition cleansing and stunbreaks.

My point, however, was that it’s not able to be evaded. And it does significant pressure , or blows significant defensive cooldowns over time. But we’re on the same page.. mostly. I don’t have a problem with Air/Fire, but that’s only because in the cross-profession arms race, it’s only fair that zerkers have that baseline pressure, same as condition users.

Hi Frands, Teef Teef Teef Teef here, #1 Thief NA and world’s first Champion Shadow!

Tage my frand! If you want to change fire and air sigils you’ll also need to rebalance every single spec in the game! This will take a long time my frand! This is a good idea but I think it’s too late for ANet to revert the sigil change now!

Wahoo! Bye Frands!

Sizer.5632:

Great idea, except for the fact that it wouldnt do a thing to classes not based on autos. So basically all those thieves running fire/air sigils would move to doing it on s/f eles.

+1 to this problem needing to be addressed
-1 to this particular idea

S/F ele is straight up stupid and OP vs anything that’s berserker. The build itself needs to die. Unless there’s some other build with this complete lack of counterplay, I think this holds up for every other build in the game.

its all about the air fire proc
everything was fine b4 the sigil buffs
now even builds count on doom geo or air fire