Guild Wars 2

I think the argument of being countered by one profession just isn’t enough. While I understand your sentiment, I don’t think it’s enough to justify the point. The same could be said about say Mesmer’s being countered by much more.

Edit: That’s not entirely true. A zerker meta doesn’t exist because players like to take the path of least resistance; finding the best way to survive while putting out as much damage as possible. And if your argument is Thief being the problem, put a meditation Guardian in your team.

BlackBeard.2873:

Bran.7425:

I can only assume that their vigor trait was untouched due to being a major trait (whimsy logic at best as the profession is loath to avoid that traitline so the not like it is costing much) similarly to the endurance recover of signet of stamina that escape the systematic hunt for low investment sources of endurance recovery.

Actually, people pleaded not to nerf renewing stamina, not for the sake of d/d, but for any other ele build. The closest ele has to a competitive build outside of d/d is s/f, which already gets farmed by a decent s/d thief. Taking away more dodging capability just destroys that build.

This is the problem with trying to nerf d/d ele: EVERY ele build uses the same traits to get some survivability because 80% of their ability to survive comes from those traits. D/D stacks every defensive trait it can, while any other ele build struggles to survive. Trying to nerf d/d can take ele straight to trash bin because if you overdo it, and make d/d unviable, then there are no builds that ele can truly play that aren’t just thief food. (Side note, this explanation just makes me mad how much thief, as a class, hurts build viability in this game)

Elementalist, trait-wise is a complete mess. The whole class is balanced around some incredibly OP traits, and as such there is next to no build diversity. Trying to nerf those traits not only hurts the meta spec, but also any semblance of competitiveness other specs can get. This is why eles defend their defensive traits so much – without them the class goes strait to C-tier.

You mean like where mesmers, necros, and rangers are at?

Okay lets not touch renewing stamina. Here are some ideas to “Shave” d/d ele. And I say shave because what I would really like to do to this spec is nowhere near what anyone (even ANET) would consider a shave.

• Burning Speed-This skill is no longer an evade. When d/d ele was removed (ele in general) from the meta, this skill wasn’t the reason why. Also with perma vigor, ele doesn’t need all that many evades in a weapon set. Not to mention this makes one of the highest damaging skills on ele uninterruptable.

• Frozen Burst-This skill is no longer a blast finisher. D/D ele didn’t need more blast finishers anyways.

• Frost Aura-Chill duration is one second, down from 2. This skill already reduces incoming damage by 10 , not to mention eles usually have permanent protection, so yeah 43 reduced damage, not okay for the damage that they do.

• Last but not least, reduce the duration of might gained from blast finishers. I think everyone understands that ele is hard to kill, and they are okay with that. What people (alot) are not okay with, is the amount of damage (condition/direct etc) and control eles bring to a fight.

Like I said, this is my version of a shave. What I would really like to do this spec, I know won’t happen so there you have it.

Thing is Jportell, you need to post what you think should happen. To me, these changes aren’t nearly enough. I wouldn’t even call that “shaving.”

So basically they whined their way out of change like the mesmers did on Deceptive Evasion.

Bran.7425:

So basically they whined their way out of change like the mesmers did on Deceptive Evasion.

Yeah except when the deceptive evasion change was brought up mesmers were (and still are) one of the bottom tier classes in PvP.

The discussion seems to be hitting on a big point here:

Bunkers are not used much anymore.

So here’s my questions now:

1. Is this because Cele is too strong or because bunkers are too weak?
2. If bunkers are too weak, should the support be buffed so that Cele Ele doesn’t creep on it?
3. If cele is too strong, what part of it is too strong? Should the defense go down and the support remain just as strong? Should the defense stay the same and the support potential go down? Is it the damage?
   1. On this note, would it help if some of the support that eles have be other ally only? For example, Cleansing Wave only removing conditions from allies or the healing on certain skills being less effective on the ele, but more effective on allies? Please take this as a concept, not a specific suggestion.
4. The DPS role is taken up by pure DPS players still. While you don’t see mesmer/thief/ranger/guardian/necro as a DPS role as often as Cele Engi, you still see it plenty. That said, we sort of scoff at bunker guardians currently.
   1. Is this because the pure DPSers have a niche or because they excel at DPS enough that they overtake the cele engi role? For example, mesmer has an AMAZING burst, but they also have portal (their niche). If mesmer didn’t have portal, would you still take it? What about thief without stealth or power ranger without entangle?
   2. Do bunker roles need this niche (Some special skill that cannot be matched by other builds) or an increase in their ability to support allies (more heals/condi clears/boons)?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

The discussion seems to be hitting on a big point here:

Bunkers are not used much anymore.

So here’s my questions now:

1. Is this because Cele is too strong or because bunkers are too weak?
2. If bunkers are too weak, should the support be buffed so that Cele Ele doesn’t creep on it?
3. If cele is too strong, what part of it is too strong? Should the defense go down and the support remain just as strong? Should the defense stay the same and the support potential go down? Is it the damage?
   1. On this note, would it help if some of the support that eles have be other ally only? For example, Cleansing Wave only removing conditions from allies or the healing on certain skills being less effective on the ele, but more effective on allies? Please take this as a concept, not a specific suggestion.
4. The DPS role is taken up by pure DPS players still. While you don’t see mesmer/thief/ranger/guardian/necro as a DPS role as often as Cele Engi, you still see it plenty. That said, we sort of scoff at bunker guardians currently.
   1. Is this because the pure DPSers have a niche or because they excel at DPS enough that they overtake the cele engi role? For example, mesmer has an AMAZING burst, but they also have portal (their niche). If mesmer didn’t have portal, would you still take it? What about thief without stealth or power ranger without entangle?
   2. Do bunker roles need this niche (Some special skill that cannot be matched by other builds) or an increase in their ability to support allies (more heals/condi clears/boons)?

I think that the DPS role being filled by celestial engineers is still a problem. Because, these guys put out great DPS and still being extremely tanky. Now the defensive portions of celestial should not be nerfed. The offensive portions should. Once the offensive portions are nerfed, THEN these guys support/defensive role will no longer match bunkers.

jportell.2197:

I think that the DPS role being filled by celestial engineers is still a problem. Because, these guys put out great DPS and still being extremely tanky. Now the defensive portions of celestial should not be nerfed. The offensive portions should. Once the offensive portions are nerfed, THEN these guys support/defensive role will no longer match bunkers.

It seems like you’re suggesting the concept of the celestial player (good at a lot of stuff, but not great) shouldn’t exist. If the damage on celestial ele is nerfed, then it’s just another bunker.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

I think that the DPS role being filled by celestial engineers is still a problem. Because, these guys put out great DPS and still being extremely tanky. Now the defensive portions of celestial should not be nerfed. The offensive portions should. Once the offensive portions are nerfed, THEN these guys support/defensive role will no longer match bunkers.

It seems like you’re suggesting the concept of the celestial player (good at a lot of stuff, but not great) shouldn’t exist. If the damage on celestial ele is nerfed, then it’s just another bunker.

That’s just it tho. They aren’t “good” at alot of stuff. They are “great” at everything. If you look at the representation of celestial users and the classes that are played using celestial amulet, there is a vast over representation.

Granted just what I got from WTS isn’t the largest sample size of the population, it is considered the highest level of play in this game. The highest used class between EU and NA is more than double the third used class (engi and warr are tied for second). If they were just “good” at everything and not “great” at everything they wouldn’t really be stacked so heavily on the teams.

The last point I want to make, is classes weaknesses should be magnified the more of them are put on a team. With Engis and Eles especially this is not the case. Several teams are stacking these on the team. They are too synergistic with each other, and since ANET doesn’t prevent doubling up on classes in their “esports” tournaments, the classes weaknesses need to be brought out to the point where stacking of any class results in an automatic handicap for your team.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

I think that the DPS role being filled by celestial engineers is still a problem. Because, these guys put out great DPS and still being extremely tanky. Now the defensive portions of celestial should not be nerfed. The offensive portions should. Once the offensive portions are nerfed, THEN these guys support/defensive role will no longer match bunkers.

It seems like you’re suggesting the concept of the celestial player (good at a lot of stuff, but not great) shouldn’t exist. If the damage on celestial ele is nerfed, then it’s just another bunker.

A little off-topic but in any instance I can think of where a spec was introduced into any game that can do everything, it’s either amazing or completely trash. The former seems to be represented in this game.

Cele rifle isn’t “tanky”. You are conflating sustain for the ability to tank.

I honestly think that cele engies and eles are in the right spot, and all the other classes are lacking. Logistically speaking I would prefer Anet’s balance team to work on buffing the other classes up to those levels than nerfing down classes to unplayable.

jportell.2197:

That’s just it tho. They aren’t “good” at alot of stuff. They are “great” at everything.

Define great. Their burst/DPS is much lower than the vast majority of DPSers in the game. I really only see their sustain/support/mobility being really strong. Their DPS can be pretty easily handled, while their sustain is what is difficult to counter (instant and lots of condi removal for poison/chilled). Their mobility is pretty crazy too with FGS/RTL/LF. Fire Magic accounts for the vast majority of the damage output of DD eles, all of which can definitely be handled. Even with just healing turret, you can simply clear the burning/poison if you mess up a dodge or get locked down. I’m having trouble accepting the argument that the damage on cele ele is too much to handle.

SobeSoul.6910:

Cele rifle isn’t “tanky”. You are conflating sustain for the ability to tank.

I honestly think that cele engies and eles are in the right spot, and all the other classes are lacking. Logistically speaking I would prefer Anet’s balance team to work on buffing the other classes up to those levels than nerfing down classes to unplayable.

Then we come into the power creep that was introduced at the time of Dhuumfire, etc. But if ANET wants to revert some nerfs for the classes that are lacking representation in the meta I have some ideas!

I still think that some abilities are just too powerful and these are powerful on every build, not just celestial:

- Gear shield too short with 20s cooldown.

- Incendiary Powder is more broken than old duumfire.

- Slick Shoes/Superspeed is way too strong.

- Ring of Fire has far too powerful of a burn at 5s duration. Most other “walk through and get burned” skills are only 1s duration of burn. IMO Ring of Fire is not a special snowflake, especially at a 15s cooldown. Burn should only be 1s duration.

- Renewing Stamina should be a 10s cooldown not a five second cooldown.

- Elemental Attunement: Why is might 15s duration and the other boons 5s? Consistency please. Might should be 5s too. Slight nerfs like this will help.

- Doom sigil gives a damaging condition with -33% healing (basically a lot more damage) to classes that aren’t supposed to have poison.

Water magic is powerful but it’s not really the source of problems, so there’s not really any point to nerfing cantrips/magic/regen… the damage from elementalists while being tanky is the problem.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

That’s just it tho. They aren’t “good” at alot of stuff. They are “great” at everything.

Define great. Their burst/DPS is much lower than the vast majority of DPSers in the game. I really only see their sustain/support/mobility being really strong. Their DPS can be pretty easily handled, while their sustain is what is difficult to counter (instant and lots of condi removal for poison/chilled). Their mobility is pretty crazy too with FGS/RTL/LF. Fire Magic accounts for the vast majority of the damage output of DD eles, all of which can definitely be handled. Even with just healing turret, you can simply clear the burning/poison if you mess up a dodge or get locked down. I’m having trouble accepting the argument that the damage on cele ele is too much to handle.

Their main draw is condition dmg(a bit more physical for cele engie). The amount of sustained dmg coupled with their ability to sustain themselves is what’s the issue. Not a lot of these skills are easily avoidable(Overcharged shot being 1). Hell, even though a lot of the Elementalist’s skills are easy to avoid, there’s only so much you can dodge, you’re going to eat something.

Edit: Still baffles me, after 5 pages of discussion and repeated arguments that some still don’t see the issue’s with the two classes mentioned. Either it’s extreme bias for those who play them or pure ignorance.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

That’s just it tho. They aren’t “good” at alot of stuff. They are “great” at everything.

Define great. Their burst/DPS is much lower than the vast majority of DPSers in the game. I really only see their sustain/support/mobility being really strong. Their DPS can be pretty easily handled, while their sustain is what is difficult to counter (instant and lots of condi removal for poison/chilled). Their mobility is pretty crazy too with FGS/RTL/LF. Fire Magic accounts for the vast majority of the damage output of DD eles, all of which can definitely be handled. Even with just healing turret, you can simply clear the burning/poison if you mess up a dodge or get locked down. I’m having trouble accepting the argument that the damage on cele ele is too much to handle.

At 25 stacks of might, their damage burst IS that great. And when looking at alot of other “dps” specs they cannot maintain that high of an amount of might period. And like arken said, you can only dodge so much, before you do get hit by something. Where as with an ele everything they do is good for them bad for you. You cannot counter the ele/engi meta currently, and if your answer is to use healing turret to counter eles, then this conversation may as well be going in circles because you are stating to solve the problem of the cele ele/engi meta by using an engi skill….

Arken.3725:

Their main draw is condition dmg(a bit more physical for cele engie). The amount of sustained dmg coupled with their ability to sustain themselves is what’s the issue. Not a lot of these skills are easily avoidable(Overcharged shot being 1). Hell, even though a lot of the Elementalist’s skills are easy to avoid, there’s only so much you can dodge, you’re going to eat something.

Edit: Still baffles me, after 5 pages of discussion and repeated arguments that some still don’t see the issue’s with the two classes mentioned. Either it’s extreme bias for those who play them or pure ignorance.

Engi definitely has some very hard abilities to avoid (possible, but super super hard). I’m talking pretty much exclusively about ele in this case though. Dodging isn’t the only way to avoid damage. Every build has other methods of shutting down ele damage. Even if you do eat something, it’s not the end of the world.

Since the nerf, there hasn’t really been a moment for me where I went “WOW that damage” from an ele. Maybe engineer, but they’re speccing into it. Not surprising.

@The Gates Assassin.9827

If cele is too strong, what part of it is too strong?

I think the 3 different celestial amulet users have different strong points. The problem is on the builds and their associated traits/skills, not on the amulet/stats itself.

Warrior: Overall the most balanced celestial class. High telegraphed skills combined with addrenaline and might nerf made hambow pretty balanced. The problem now is shoutbow. The dmg and support via condi cleanses is ok the problem is that the healing is way too high. Celestial shouts will heal for about 2.1k while a cleric 2.5k. The extra healing you get does not seen significant enough to make someone think in going cleric instead of celestial or soldier. They should reduce the base healing for the trait and encrease the way it scales.

d/d ele: Their condi cleanse, healing and group support is fine. They spend all traits and utilities for that. The biggest problem is the dmg and perma vigor. Celestial d/d does too much dmg for a build with such a high focus in sustain/support. Perma vigor is also bad for a build that gets 1 free evade every 15s.

engi: biggest problems are IP, slicky shoes and gear shield. If the enemy has no stab or blink available slicky shoes = death sentence. Considering cele engi has a 2s aoe stun, 1 pull and 1 short cooldown knockback it is pretty reasonable that someone will have to use the stab/blink before anyway.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Arken.3725:

Their main draw is condition dmg(a bit more physical for cele engie). The amount of sustained dmg coupled with their ability to sustain themselves is what’s the issue. Not a lot of these skills are easily avoidable(Overcharged shot being 1). Hell, even though a lot of the Elementalist’s skills are easy to avoid, there’s only so much you can dodge, you’re going to eat something.

Edit: Still baffles me, after 5 pages of discussion and repeated arguments that some still don’t see the issue’s with the two classes mentioned. Either it’s extreme bias for those who play them or pure ignorance.

Engi definitely has some very hard abilities to avoid (possible, but super super hard). I’m talking pretty much exclusively about ele in this case though. Dodging isn’t the only way to avoid damage. Every build has other methods of shutting down ele damage. Even if you do eat something, it’s not the end of the world.

Since the nerf, there hasn’t really been a moment for me where I went “WOW that damage” from an ele. Maybe engineer, but they’re speccing into it. Not surprising.

I think my biggest issue if I were to put it simply is there’s too much room for error for these professions. Making a mistake or two won’t cost them at all in comparison to the rest of the professions.

Edit: and yes, you’re right that there are more ways to avoid damage aside from dodging but my point remains is there’s still not enough in terms of avoidance OR there’s too much on the offensive side.

Arken.3725:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Arken.3725:

Their main draw is condition dmg(a bit more physical for cele engie). The amount of sustained dmg coupled with their ability to sustain themselves is what’s the issue. Not a lot of these skills are easily avoidable(Overcharged shot being 1). Hell, even though a lot of the Elementalist’s skills are easy to avoid, there’s only so much you can dodge, you’re going to eat something.

Edit: Still baffles me, after 5 pages of discussion and repeated arguments that some still don’t see the issue’s with the two classes mentioned. Either it’s extreme bias for those who play them or pure ignorance.

Engi definitely has some very hard abilities to avoid (possible, but super super hard). I’m talking pretty much exclusively about ele in this case though. Dodging isn’t the only way to avoid damage. Every build has other methods of shutting down ele damage. Even if you do eat something, it’s not the end of the world.

Since the nerf, there hasn’t really been a moment for me where I went “WOW that damage” from an ele. Maybe engineer, but they’re speccing into it. Not surprising.

I think my biggest issue if I were to put it simply is there’s too much room for error for these professions. Making a mistake or two won’t cost them at all in comparison to the rest of the professions.

Edit: and yes, you’re right that there are more ways to avoid damage aside from dodging but my point remains is there’s still not enough in terms of avoidance OR there’s too much on the offensive side.

Engie doesn’t have any more room for error than a few guardian builds. You eat a big burst from a mesmer you’re going to be cycling through CDs on both class. The major difference I think is engies always have swiftness where as guardians lack it depending on builds to mitigate damage with kiting.

Absolutely they do. Aside from having an incredibly low cd block, arguably the best healing skill in the game plus a ton of control/mobility, this is completely the case.

SobeSoul.6910:

Arken.3725:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Arken.3725:

Their main draw is condition dmg(a bit more physical for cele engie). The amount of sustained dmg coupled with their ability to sustain themselves is what’s the issue. Not a lot of these skills are easily avoidable(Overcharged shot being 1). Hell, even though a lot of the Elementalist’s skills are easy to avoid, there’s only so much you can dodge, you’re going to eat something.

Edit: Still baffles me, after 5 pages of discussion and repeated arguments that some still don’t see the issue’s with the two classes mentioned. Either it’s extreme bias for those who play them or pure ignorance.

Engi definitely has some very hard abilities to avoid (possible, but super super hard). I’m talking pretty much exclusively about ele in this case though. Dodging isn’t the only way to avoid damage. Every build has other methods of shutting down ele damage. Even if you do eat something, it’s not the end of the world.

Since the nerf, there hasn’t really been a moment for me where I went “WOW that damage” from an ele. Maybe engineer, but they’re speccing into it. Not surprising.

I think my biggest issue if I were to put it simply is there’s too much room for error for these professions. Making a mistake or two won’t cost them at all in comparison to the rest of the professions.

Edit: and yes, you’re right that there are more ways to avoid damage aside from dodging but my point remains is there’s still not enough in terms of avoidance OR there’s too much on the offensive side.

Engie doesn’t have any more room for error than a few guardian builds. You eat a big burst from a mesmer you’re going to be cycling through CDs on both class. The major difference I think is engies always have swiftness where as guardians lack it depending on builds to mitigate damage with kiting.

Right now engi is one of the most forgiving classes in the game their condi clear while not on shoutbow/ele level is still pretty strong between healing turret and over charged shot.

Arken.3725:

Absolutely they do. Aside from having an incredibly low cd block, arguably the best healing skill in the game plus a ton of control/mobility, this is completely the case.

You are being disingenuous here or extremely biased.

Guardians have access to way more blocks and blinds than an engie has.

SobeSoul.6910:

Arken.3725:

Absolutely they do. Aside from having an incredibly low cd block, arguably the best healing skill in the game plus a ton of control/mobility, this is completely the case.

You are being disingenuous here or extremely biased.

Guardians have access to way more blocks and blinds than an engie has.

Yes but when a guardian does anything but bunker they have to use a zerker amulet. And once a guardian is out of blinds/bblock’s etc they are stuck in the fight. Engis….. can run away fairly easy

Zefrost.3425:

- Ring of Fire has far too powerful of a burn at 5s duration. Most other “walk through and get burned” skills are only 1s duration of burn. IMO Ring of Fire is not a special snowflake, especially at a 15s cooldown. Burn should only be 1s duration.

What are the others “walk through and get burned” skills? I think you are thinking about skills like flamewall but they are not “walk through”, rather “step into” and that’s a difference.

- Renewing Stamina should be a 10s cooldown not a five second cooldown.

Sure but make it minor if you want to treat it the same way as the other two traits that give vigour on crits.

- Elemental Attunement: Why is might 15s duration and the other boons 5s? Consistency please. Might should be 5s too. Slight nerfs like this will help.

Because one stack of might is relatively weak compared to other boons which stack in duration.

jportell.2197:

SobeSoul.6910:

Arken.3725:

Absolutely they do. Aside from having an incredibly low cd block, arguably the best healing skill in the game plus a ton of control/mobility, this is completely the case.

You are being disingenuous here or extremely biased.

Guardians have access to way more blocks and blinds than an engie has.

Yes but when a guardian does anything but bunker they have to use a zerker amulet. And once a guardian is out of blinds/bblock’s etc they are stuck in the fight. Engis….. can run away fairly easy

As I said to Arken… the major difference between guardian and engie sustain is engies always have swiftness so it’s easier to kite. You’re not limited to zerk amulet outside of bunkering. There are condi and cele guardian builds.

The complaint about engies having the best heal ability in game is dubious when medi heals and regen skills on guardians can easily take a guardian from 1% to 100% hp in a bat of an eye, and if we did the math, I’m not sure would be much worse than healing turret.

Obviously engie is in a better spot than guardians because it can utilize a more well rounded builds than guardian. That’s why I think Anet shouldn’t look towards nerfing eles and engies down, but making other classes capable of being more well rounded like eles and engies.

SobeSoul.6910:

Arken.3725:

Absolutely they do. Aside from having an incredibly low cd block, arguably the best healing skill in the game plus a ton of control/mobility, this is completely the case.

You are being disingenuous here or extremely biased.

Guardians have access to way more blocks and blinds than an engie has.

How am I being biased or disingenuous? I’m not making these up but rather showing you evidence. Here, let me list the skills in question that allow for mistakes to be made.

-Shelter: 2 second block, 30 sec cd. Gearshield: 3 second block, 20(16 traited) cd. It’s almost more than 2 times effective. If we’re talking quantity then you’re correct. However, i’d gladly trade for more of a shield-stance skill than active blocking at this point.

-Nading at their feet which also, allows for a ton of counter play and the ability to peel for yourself.

-100% up time on Swiftness

-Slick shoes for, once again, the cc mentioned which would allow for significant pressure.

Edit: Aside from lack of swiftness, the Guardian also lacks any real slowing conditions to stick to their opponent.

No, the difference is engi has too much of everything.

nails are incredible kitting skill.
grenades you can throw backwards
and have high CC uptime
while still having 16 seconds CD block
let’s not mention stealth etc.

ele has 3 cantrips for survival and 8 trait points in defensive lines
warrior has 3 shouts for healing and condition clean and 10 points in defensive lines

engi has 1(elixir) and a half (tool kit) and only 4 points in defensive line and they can spec the rest in to completely offensive. like why engis can be more then just viable every time without even the need to trait for proper condition clear. not to mention cele engi does damage like a zerker engi.

What CC uptime are you referring to? you avoid specifics there. What build would we be finding all of this in?

Link the build that you feel is problematic?

coglin.1867:

What CC uptime are you referring to? you avoid specifics there. What build would we be finding all of this in?

Link the build that you feel is problematic?

Overcharge alone is incredible CC uptime with no cast time.
in fact it probably has the highest CC up time in the game. (other then fear which is condition)

not even counting all the soft CCs from chill grenades, nails, immo or hard CCs like turret explosion and magna pull.

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

You forgot to link the specific build that you feel is a problem.

coglin.1867:

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

and? does your argument counter my argument of it has too much of everything?
you basically said there are simillar skills out there but it counters nothing to my argument.

What else build would have overcharge, grenades, nails, magna pull, turret explosion CC and been generally used everywhere in PvP?…

coglin.1867:

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

List them then. Doesn’t it get tiring stating something you believe to be fact without listing anything to back it up? The poster above you listed all the skills which count as CC to back up his claims.

Is the problem really that it has so much CC? Slick Shoes is a little bit much, but warrior hammer has just as much CC. The difference is that Overcharged Shot is instant and all of the warrior skills have obvious animations. These difficult to counter skills need to be more counterable. The sustain on ele and the CC on engi are very difficult to counter because they’re extremely quick or instant.

Arken.3725:

coglin.1867:

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

List them then. Doesn’t it get tiring stating something you believe to be fact without listing anything to back it up? The poster above you listed all the skills which count as CC to back up his claims.

Why? are you claiming that comparing skills 1 to 1 in a vacuum is the way to determine balance?

And what is the problem with tool kit? It has similar CC and less damage then either guardian or warrior hammer skills. The only difference is the engineer loses a utility slot to use theirs, while guardians and warriors get access without having to burn a utility slot.

coglin.1867:

Arken.3725:

coglin.1867:

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

List them then. Doesn’t it get tiring stating something you believe to be fact without listing anything to back it up? The poster above you listed all the skills which count as CC to back up his claims.

Why? are you claiming that comparing skills 1 to 1 in a vacuum is the way to determine balance?

coglin.1867:

Not even close. The only problem it has is that it needs a visual cue+cast time. There are several skills with equal and several more with lower cool downs for the same or similar CC duration.

You just stated that a few posts ago. Again, what skills do you speak of.

Edit: Not trying to come off as rude but rather we need facts to back up our arguments, not empty statements.

Arken.3725:

SobeSoul.6910:

Arken.3725:

Absolutely they do. Aside from having an incredibly low cd block, arguably the best healing skill in the game plus a ton of control/mobility, this is completely the case.

You are being disingenuous here or extremely biased.

Guardians have access to way more blocks and blinds than an engie has.

How am I being biased or disingenuous? I’m not making these up but rather showing you evidence. Here, let me list the skills in question that allow for mistakes to be made.

-Shelter: 2 second block, 30 sec cd. Gearshield: 3 second block, 20(16 traited) cd. It’s almost more than 2 times effective. If we’re talking quantity then you’re correct. However, i’d gladly trade for more of a shield-stance skill than active blocking at this point.

-Nading at their feet which also, allows for a ton of counter play and the ability to peel for yourself.

-100% up time on Swiftness

-Slick shoes for, once again, the cc mentioned which would allow for significant pressure.

Edit: Aside from lack of swiftness, the Guardian also lacks any real slowing conditions to stick to their opponent.

You are being disingenuous if you are comparing one skill side by side and not the complete package.

Slick shoes probably needs a rework where it doesn’t knock people down who stunbreak out of it. Not sure how many engies will say otherwise.

If you want to be unbiased than do the complete math with builds on engie vs. guardians instead of tunnel visioning.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Is the problem really that it has so much CC? Slick Shoes is a little bit much, but warrior hammer has just as much CC. The difference is that Overcharged Shot is instant and all of the warrior skills have obvious animations. These difficult to counter skills need to be more counterable. The sustain on ele and the CC on engi are very difficult to counter because they’re extremely quick or instant.

IMO, the problem is not a specific area, but having too much of EVERYTHING
It’s like i can build to out heal a cele engi
i can build to out damage a cele engi
i can build to out condition damage a cele engi
but these builds are all bad compare to a cele engi.
because cele engis has too much of everything.
and cele engis definitely has too much damage, chaith and caed both said that it has good burst that is equal to a berserker engi. (not sure about now after might nerf)
So one/multiple areas has to be tune down.
i guess it will be CC here?

About CCs you are right, i can build hambow and have as much CC but can’t land a single one because of melee range telegraphed animation..
While engis have a lot of ways to actually land the damage, stealth to CC, immo (also low cast time) to overcharge, magna pull behind SoI, or just simply no cast time overcharge.
CC skills which are way too good should get an obvious cast time just like pin down did.

and another question that bugs me the most is that engi is like the only class out there that does not need a proper condition clear.

coglin.1867:

What CC uptime are you referring to? you avoid specifics there. What build would we be finding all of this in?

Link the build that you feel is problematic?

Here this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpErlcxzLseNCbBNyx0GRuxq85HGgkC-TJxHwADeAAAuAAi2fQZZAA

This is the standard last I checked (I could have some major adepts wrong).

• Launch on 15s CD (also a condi clear for immob/cripple/chill)

• Net shot 2.5 s immob (round up to 3 in this game) on a 10s cd. That means in a perfect world for the engineer you are immobilized for 30% of a fight.

• Magnet pull (yes it’s hard to land but it’s still CC) 20s CD

• Slick shoes (oh this one) 5 seconds continuous knock down and all the engi has to do is run around in circles nading his feet. No stab or teleport and you are dead.

Then there is also the soft CC from box of nails and freeze grenades.

IS that enough CC to talk about without me bringing up the ridiculousness that is supply crate?

While that is a lot of CC, CC is kind of the thing of engineers. That’s like faulting the thief for having too much stealth. If you want to say the CC is too hard to counter, that’s a different argument all together.

The only things I see with that build is that the placing of healing turret needs a clear animation cue, cleansing burst needs a cast time, detonate turret needs a cast time and animation, and overcharge shot needs a cast time + animation cue

The build itself is not very problematic. There is almost no condition cleanse. The heals requires a 3 step process to get more then 2500-3000 of a heal.

Stability counters 75% of this build.

The build is not a problem in itself. The real and only problem, is that some of the CC skills do not have a visual cue to allow for dodges, as well as the cast time associated with those cues.

Clearly I see issues with the skills having counter play via cast times and visual cues. What I don’t by is the “whoa is me, I got CCed crying”………When half of the weapons skills and utilities are 100% neutered by stability, it is hard to squeeze out any sympathy.

The only ranged CC there is magnet. Adjust your play and stop trying to be close enough to make out with engineers. Put on a little range and you will negate 90% of the CC and all of the damage in that build other then a very poor rifle auto attack.

If you cannot avoid grenades at range with their loooong travel time, you probably shouldn’t even be in the conversation.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

While that is a lot of CC, CC is kind of the thing of engineers. That’s like faulting the thief for having too much stealth. If you want to say the CC is too hard to counter, that’s a different argument all together.

I would suggest we start by adding a cast time to overcharge then we will see.
not something like Point blank of ranger being 1/2 seconds, because it’s like as close as not have any cast time.

slick shoes should also be looked at somehow.
and imo Net shot should have higher CD

Okay so what I am getting from some of the people in the thread that are arguing that these cele builds are fine. It is other classes/builds that need to be brought up to compete with these builds.

So my big question: Should the classes that are struggling to find a place be brought up to the point where they can have a proper celestial builds.

Or should the classes previously known for their burst or bunker capabilities be buffed up so that they are once again the masters of bursting/bunkering while these cele builds are just ‘good’ at it. Ways this can be accomplished I think

• Guardians- awhile back anet introduced a bug where pure of voice converted two condis to boons per shout instead of one. I think this bug should be brought back as a part of this trait. This is a grand master trait that right now is so underwhelming it isn’t even funny, especially when you look at ele/warrior condition removal capability (remember when ANET said they want warriors to be weak to conditions! So much for that.)

• Rangers- right now glass LB is kind of everywhere, since I have never mained the class I can’t give input on what should be buffed to make them usable in high tier play.

• Necromancers- Anet once said they should be vulnerable to CC and also be the class that you can just not get away from. Right now necro is likely one of the easiest classes to escape in the game. Also this class is completely hard countered by LB rangers because the necro can never get close enough to them to do anything.

• Mesmers- Like warriors Anet said they want mesmers to be weak to conditions, unlike warriors in general anet has done jack to help us better deal with conditions. Also if not for portal you would never see a mesmer in a team ever, ever, ever it’s kinda sad that one classes usefulness to a team completely hinges on this one skill and how much longer are mesmers going to be completely shut out by thieves?

• Thief-After engis, warriors, and eles thieves are represented very well in the current meta (5/45 WTS players started matches on thief.)

Hard cc
Magnet traited = 1 pull on 20s cd
Suppy crate = 2s aoe stun on 180s cd also drops a net turret that will imobilize
Slick Shoes = knockdown ring of death on a 45 secons cd

Soft cc
Net shot = 2.5 s immob on a 10s cd
Freeze grenade = 2.5s each grenade (*3) on a 20s cd

Bonus: 1 blink every 10s

Engi has ranged atks and the best block uptime in the game. That means that when not ccing the enemy their are blocking

That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

While that is a lot of CC, CC is kind of the thing of engineers. That’s like faulting the thief for having too much stealth. If you want to say the CC is too hard to counter, that’s a different argument all together.

Except CC isn’t ONLY kind of the engineers thing, great direct damage, amazing condition damage, great mobility (w/o teleports), and pretty good survivability.

Also if you want to look at class design or “intended” class design, great CC (dazes, stuns, interrupts, pulls, pushes, etc.) and all related traits, then CC is really kind of mesmers thing, however there has yet to be an actual viable high end mesmer build that is built around CC and interrupts. Yes people have made them, yes they are fun, they still haven’t made it past random ranked arena games. +

There are working celestial builds for some professions, but not for all. I haven’t for example figured out any good celestial build for the necromancer (and trust me I spent so many hours trying to do it).

Celestial became “overpowered” with the sigil and rune changes, which are the core problem.

I don’t know any viable celestial build, which isn’t using at least one of the following runes or sigils and might stacking from fire fields.

Without might stacking celestial would be mediocre damage at best.

Might stacking was already nerfed, but I still feel it allows too much stat increase with ease. For example celestial shoutbow warrior can easily keep 14 might stacks in combat. That is 14*30*2 = 840 additional stat points in total.

Using a finisher on fire field should give 3 stacks of might for 10 seconds instead of 20 s.

If almost every profession and build uses certain Sigils and Rune Sets, this should tell we have a problem of them being too good.

I am now talking about the following and here are my suggestions to fix them:

Superior Rune of the Hoelbrak
- reduce might duration to 10% (from 30%), the -20% condition duration is extremely strong itself, making Melandru runes almost redudant

Superior Rune of the Strength
- reduce might duration to 30% (from 45%)

Superior Rune of the Krait
- remove torment and poison from 6th rune effect (activating elite)

Superior Rune of the Perplexity (missing from pvp, but extremely common and abused in WvWvW roaming)
- change 4th effect, next attack causes 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds, when using a heal skill, cooldown 30 s
- change 6th effect, gives only 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds when interrupting

Superior Sigil of Fire
- cannot trigger same time with other crit proc sigils, like sigil of air
- combined with sigil of air allows fairly durable builds hit extremely kitten crits

Superior Sigil of Air
- cannot trigger same time with other crit proc sigils, like sigil of fire
- combined with sigil of fire allows fairly durable builds hit extremely kitten crits

Superior Sigil of Doom
- give 4 second of poison (instead of 6)
- allows too long lasting poison

Superior Sigil of Energy
- give back 33% of endurance (instead of 50%)
- allows extra dodge on too low cooldown

Superior Sigil of Geomancy
- give 2 stacks of bleeding for 8 s (instead of 3 stacks for 10 s)
- current version allows too large AoE condition spam for very little

Superior Sigil of Intelligence
- gain fury on weapon swap for 5 s (cooldown 10), the current version allows 100% crit chance with zero investment to precision, which allows tanky builds to hit too hard

Some other sigils and runes, which are currently too weak, should be buffed slightly.

Examples of underused runes: Rune of the Citadel (drop bomb is useless, replace with something fitting to name of the rune, like -15% condi duration), Rune of the Speed (traveler and pack runes are better), Rune of the Rage (fury alone too weak)

Examples of underused sigils: sigil of nullification (increase to 100% chance),
sigil of incapacitation (increase to 100% chance)

I could go on and I probably forgot many.

xDudisx.5914:

That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.

How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?

It is also, by miles, the least condition cleanse of those. Are you suggesting adding conditions cleanse to cele engineer?

jportell.2197:

Except CC isn’t ONLY kind of the engineers thing, great direct damage, amazing condition damage, great mobility (w/o teleports), and pretty good survivability.

Amazing condition damage? You must be extremely easy to amaze. The build has mediocre direct damage + mediocre condition damage, that combine for “solid” damage out put. Not even remotely amazing damage out put.

Great mobility? decent mobility maybe, great is a joke.

The only things I see with that build is that the placing of healing turret needs a clear animation cue, cleansing burst needs a cast time, detonate turret needs a cast time and animation, and overcharge shot needs a cast time + animation cue

The build itself is not very problematic. There is almost no condition cleanse. The heals requires a 3 step process to get more then 2500-3000 of a heal.

Stability counters 75% of this build.

The build is not a problem in itself. The real and only problem, is that some of the CC skills do not have a visual cue to allow for dodges, as well as the cast time associated with those cues.

Clearly I see issues with the skills having counter play via cast times and visual cues.

Ok guys, let’s just say Cele engi has too much of everything.
but in the end, we may only need to change one area just to bring it down from having too much of everything. (which is what coglin saying, which means it comes to the same thing)
Like giving a cast time to overcharge i think we all agree.
Slick shoes should be look at,
and IMO gear block and net shot should have CD increase.

and IP should really have a visual icon probably.

Simon.3794:

Ok guys, let’s just say Cele engi has too much of everything.
but in the end, we may only need to change one area just to bring it down from having too much of everything.

False statements like this are part of the perception problem.

How do they have too much stability?

How do they have too much condition cleanse? (they have the least of all profession)

How do they have too much stealth?

How do they have too much might stacking?

None of those things are in the linked build the are complaining about

As pointed out before, the problem isn’t the skills themselves. It is the fact that too many of those skills either lack an animation for counter play avoidance, or lack a cast time for interrupt options.

Your right as well that IP is one of those aspects of the problem by lacking a counter play tell of any kind. The only problem with singling it out, is that plenty of traits across all profession offer passive damage or effect that others avoid because it might effect their profession negatively.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Simon.3794:

Ok guys, let’s just say Cele engi has too much of everything.
but in the end, we may only need to change one area just to bring it down from having too much of everything.

False statements like this are part of the perception problem.

How do they have too much stability?

How do they have too much condition cleanse? (they have the least of all profession)

How do they have too much stealth?

How do they have too much might stacking?

None of those things are in the linked build the are complaining about

As pointed out before, the problem isn’t the skills themselves. It is the fact that too many of those skills either lack an animation for counter play avoidance, or lack a cast time for interrupt options.

Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!