Guild Wars 2

Exedore.6320:

Swim.6830:

I keep seeing the same kitten quoted by people “5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown” and similar. Uh NO it is NOT. No one attunes just for the boon and then attunes back right away (that’s the only case where it would be remotely close to 10s). Attunements are not kits and are a class profession. It’s like me complaining about ranger pets being too stonkk kitten kitten.

This does bring up a good point: What is a d/d ele’s protection up-time?

First, What’s a reasonable time between Earth attunement swaps? I think 15sec – 20sec is a good estimate.

If we look at at 60 second window (hopefully a battle will be decided by then), we have the following sources for self-protection:

• 6 sec from Armor of Earth
• 10 sec from Shocking Aura x2
• 5 sec from Frost Aura
• 15 sec from Elemental Attunement (Earth) x3
• +30% boon duration from 6 points in Arcane

Add it up and the d/d ele gets 46.8 seconds of Protection on himself in that 60 second window – 78% uptime. Group is only affected by Elemental Attunement, so that’s 19.5 seconds – 32.5% uptime.

You’d have a more accurate picture if you didn’t count Elemental Shielding as five seconds base when it’s three seconds

If it wasn’t be too much work (and require more balancing patches to ensure functionality) then I would suggest variation of the stat allotments so that the stat sets would be balanced around the profession in questioned.

Bran.7425:

If it wasn’t be too much work (and require more balancing patches to ensure functionality) then I would suggest variation of the stat allotments so that the stat sets would be balanced around the profession in questioned.

There was no talk at all about eles and not so much about engy before the april patch 2014, meaning that problems started to arise with the revamp of the celestial amulet, that magnify ele/engi abilities.

But as it is now, no amount of stats change would stop the vocal minority from asking for harsh nerfs on the professions, especially ele.

The celestial amulet is what makes ele/engi team stacking possible , if you’d nerf of even remove the amulet in question, most eles ( those who would remain ) will move to other amulet, for example: valk, zerker, cleric, settler or even soldier.

What would happen then is that having a double valk or double cleric ele in your team would be counter-productive, a valk ele would lack the condi pressure and HP of a celestial ele, making him far more susceptible to heavy burst.

There was no Abjure before April 2014 patch, a coincidence? I think not.
The amulet did not improve the build diversity that much, of all the current meta builds, only D/D ele requires celestial at 100%, what I mean is that other profession have meta builds that don’t need celestial at all ( rabid engy, soldier/settler warrior).

The removal/tweaking of the amulet would not “destroy” the competitive scene of GW2, simply it would stop teams from stacking eles I believe, as over 70% of GW2 population is made up of PvErs and WvW players, the devs should not go and harshly nerf an entire profession because of a single amulet that make it apparently OP in PvP, which is a small portion of the game.

All in all @Bran , your suggestion is one of the most logical ones seen so far and Anet should have listened to these suggestions even before the might nerf, after all as I have stated already, the majority of the eles don’t care a bit about e-sport, they only care about playing their profession in a fun and not frustrating way

Simon.3794:

Elemental Attunement, please

5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown is already ridic, when combined with 2 ele, it’s even more ridic..

Elemental attunement is a master trait. Out of 4 boons only 2 are really good: protection and regen. Regen is good mostly because sinergizes with other traits. The other 2 swiftness and 1stack of might are weak. The self protection should stay the same. Protection is here for a reason eles have low hp and light armor.

I would say that elemental shielding, a minor trait, giving 3s base protection (4s traited) is the real problematic one. Maybe they could change from 3s protection to 2s swiftness+2s protection. Or any other boon like retal. Look at how Zephy’s boons works. Has 2 boons on a higher base duration (5s) and is not as op as Elemental shielding.

While elemental attunement can work with any ele weapon elemental shielding works better in main hand dagger users. This happens because if you have a main hand dagger you have 2 auras. Staff or scepter will have only 1. Nerfing elemental attunement will hurt almost all ele builds. Nerf elemental shielding will be a bigger nerf for d/d than anything else.

xDudisx.5914:

Simon.3794:

Elemental Attunement, please

5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown is already ridic, when combined with 2 ele, it’s even more ridic..

Elemental attunement is a master trait. Out of 4 boons only 2 are really good: protection and regen. Regen is good mostly because sinergizes with other traits. The other 2 swiftness and 1stack of might are weak. The self protection should stay the same. Protection is here for a reason eles have low hp and light armor.

I would say that elemental shielding, a minor trait, giving 3s base protection is the real problematic one. Maybe they could change from 3s protection to 2s swiftness+2s protection. Or any other boon like retal. Look at how Zephy’s boons works. Has 2 boons on a higher base duration (5s) and is not as op as Elemental shielding.

While elemental attunement can work with any ele weapon elemental shielding works better in main hand dagger users. This happens because with you have a main hand dagger you have 2 auras. Staff or scepter will have only 1. Nerfing elemental attunement will hurt almost all ele builds. Nerf elemental shielding will be a bigger nerf for d/d than anything else.

For once I agree with you

Nerf celery engis and eles pleze

Too crunchy it hurts my tooths

I also haz too floss after and I get blood in gums

It doesn’t taste wery good

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

Chaith.8256:

You’d have a more accurate picture if you didn’t count Elemental Shielding as five seconds base when it’s three seconds

Fixed in original.

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

I would kill for a decent celestial mesmer build…. Too bad mesmer attacks are garbage for AOE, and sustained is terrible as well.

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

Supreme.3164:

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

That being the case then perhaps the dagger/dagger setup needs to be adjusted on its own first, but I have a feeling that this option would ‘ruin’ the profession for those that enjoy the profession as it is.

Supreme.3164:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort.

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles.

What would switching the placements of arcane resurrection (down to adept) and renewing stamina (up to master) do to the situation otherwise without changing the traits?

Bran.7425:

What would switching the placements of arcane resurrection (down to adept) and renewing stamina (up to master) do to the situation otherwise without changing the traits?

That would delete ele from pvp again, sadly. Not only will d/d become strictly worse than other bruiser builds without ANY vigor (a 100% nerf), but you are also deleting s/f ele (the only other semi-viable spec).

Also, to those asking for elemental attunement to be nerfed, it is honestly ridiculous. Yes EA is probably one of THE most OP traits in the game. However, EVERY SINGLE WEAPONS SKILL, TRAIT, AND UTILITY SKILL that is pvp viable is balanced with EVERY ele build having this trait in-mind. Nerfing elemental attunement doesn’t nerf d/d cele ele, it nerfs the elementalist class as a WHOLE (and only d/d is truly viable).

I personally think that some of jportell’s most recent suggestions (remove evade from burning speed, remove blast finisher from frozen burst, perhaps even remove more burning from drake’s breath) would be enough. Taking away frozen burst shaves an additional ~6 might from the best cele eles (180 power and condition damage).

The only reason I brought it up adept majors/minor are in a often close in power (sadly) and with almost every profession low access endurance recovery was cut in half, so it kind of stands out as the it is also in a trait line that is not being avoided at all, otherwise I could see an increase in the recharge.

At this point it is sound like the profession is in a dire situation as a simplified example Dagger Dagger Elementalist is 3, and 3 is too large, but the changes to get it down to 2 (target number), will place other builds at 1 (which is too weak).

jportell.2197:

Supreme.3164:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort.

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles.

and increase the health to medium.

BlackBeard.2873:

Bran.7425:

What would switching the placements of arcane resurrection (down to adept) and renewing stamina (up to master) do to the situation otherwise without changing the traits?

That would delete ele from pvp again, sadly. Not only will d/d become strictly worse than other bruiser builds without ANY vigor (a 100% nerf), but you are also deleting s/f ele (the only other semi-viable spec).

Also, to those asking for elemental attunement to be nerfed, it is honestly ridiculous. Yes EA is probably one of THE most OP traits in the game. However, EVERY SINGLE WEAPONS SKILL, TRAIT, AND UTILITY SKILL that is pvp viable is balanced with EVERY ele build having this trait in-mind. Nerfing elemental attunement doesn’t nerf d/d cele ele, it nerfs the elementalist class as a WHOLE (and only d/d is truly viable).

I personally think that some of jportell’s most recent suggestions (remove evade from burning speed, remove blast finisher from frozen burst, perhaps even remove more burning from drake’s breath) would be enough. Taking away frozen burst shaves an additional ~6 might from the best cele eles (180 power and condition damage).

I agree Mr. Beard. Lets not make a change that effect all Elementalist’s builds.
The removing Evade from Burning Speed makes for a nice counter. Not too sure about removing Frozen Bursts ice blast though. Then again, I run Searing Flames so (usually) Ele’s might stacking has never been an issue for me. Should every class have at least one easy access boon removal minor trait?
Mesmers, Necros and even Thieves have great boon removal skills. Everyone else should stay below that line, all the way down where Searing Flames is.

Maybe we should concentrate on how our own class traits could better perform against these high sustain, high boon, high mobility, moderate aoe damaging comps.

I’ll start first.
Have Searing flames hit multiple targets on proc (if burn hits 2 people at once) instead of only 1 target.

jportell.2197:

Supreme.3164:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort*

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles*

The suggestions seem reasonable, although the removal of blast finisher from frozen burst, reduced burning on drake’s breath and reduction of healing on cone of cold, they do attack celestial spec directly but also other amulet combos.

A settler/ condi specced celestial ele ( like triple signet ele ) will be negatively affected by burning reduction and less healing on cone of cold.
A zerker/soldier/valk ele will suffer from the decrease in condi pressure and less might overall.

The overall scope here is to bring cele ele build in check while not burying, other amulet choices, even deeper than now.

-Removed blast finisher from frozen blast and less access to burning from drake’s breath:

Drake’s breath CD increased to 10s CD and stacks reduced from 4 to 3
- current burning iteration last 8s in total and eles have not condi duration buff with that build, this change would means a 6s burn every 10s

Frozen burst base dmg increased from 128 to 420, dmg coefficient increased from 0.4 to 1.0

Cone of Cold, removed the healing aspect, now applies another condi or base dmg increased from 680 to 920

-Reduced access to protection

Lightning touch angle of attack increased from 40 degree to 100 degree
-Better access to weakness to reduce inc direct dmg at mele range, a direct approach to increased ele survivability without relying on passive buffs

You want to reduce the condi pressure and healing of D/D, which are the strong point of this build against a typical shatter Mesmer build, this build in question has ample ways to mitigate direct damage, your proposed changes will make a celestial ele far less threatening for a shatter Mesmer, my changes will make so that at equal skill level, a D/D using other amulets will remains an overall threat to you, it won’t become instead a free kill

bluberblasen.9684:

jportell.2197:

Supreme.3164:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort.

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles.

and increase the health to medium.

Except d/d eles arent using these tools just to survive. They are dominating with them.

BlackBeard.2873:

Bran.7425:

What would switching the placements of arcane resurrection (down to adept) and renewing stamina (up to master) do to the situation otherwise without changing the traits?

That would delete ele from pvp again, sadly. Not only will d/d become strictly worse than other bruiser builds without ANY vigor (a 100% nerf), but you are also deleting s/f ele (the only other semi-viable spec).

Also, to those asking for elemental attunement to be nerfed, it is honestly ridiculous. Yes EA is probably one of THE most OP traits in the game. However, EVERY SINGLE WEAPONS SKILL, TRAIT, AND UTILITY SKILL that is pvp viable is balanced with EVERY ele build having this trait in-mind. Nerfing elemental attunement doesn’t nerf d/d cele ele, it nerfs the elementalist class as a WHOLE (and only d/d is truly viable).

I personally think that some of jportell’s most recent suggestions (remove evade from burning speed, remove blast finisher from frozen burst, perhaps even remove more burning from drake’s breath) would be enough. Taking away frozen burst shaves an additional ~6 might from the best cele eles (180 power and condition damage).

Let’s not forget that a D/D ele must eat AoE all day long while being targeted by Mesmer and Thieves who can enter/exit battle at will ( thief more than Mesmer).

At the same time, d/d eles do posses neither the health or armour of a warrior, or the block/aegis/blind of a guardian , or the CC pressure of an engy

A below average ele on d/d is already nothing more than a number in a team, his presence does not contributes to the victory of a team, basically you don’t carry on an ele on average, not like a thief or engi.

Let’s not forget where other professions sit when making suggestion on ele, at equal skill level it’s not like a d/d ele trash everything in sight by pressing 1-2 buttons so…

It’s already hard to let go of the evade on burning speed, which is more useful than a couple extra dodges in my opinion, because it combines attack and defense in a single move where you know already that it’s impossible to dodge all the random proc crap that flies around in GW2

jportell.2197:

bluberblasen.9684:

jportell.2197:

Supreme.3164:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort.

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles.

and increase the health to medium.

Except d/d eles arent using these tools just to survive. They are dominating with them.

You can’t dominate anything if you’re forced at mele range and you lack the tools to survive at that range

-edit : And don’t forget that most ele players are WvW/PvErs, so any suggestion must be accurate

Supreme.3164:

jportell.2197:

bluberblasen.9684:

jportell.2197:

Supreme.3164:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort.

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles.

and increase the health to medium.

Except d/d eles arent using these tools just to survive. They are dominating with them.

You can’t dominate anything if you’re forced at mele range and you lack the tools to survive at that range

Lol then why are d/d eles dominating right now? I posted nimbers from the WTS quals on class/amulet usage. I believe 64% (29 out of the 45) of the players were all ising celestial amulets. 11 of the 29 were eles with warriors and engis tied at 9. Those numbers are still pretty harsh considering the small sample size of the survey.

Exedore.6320:

Swim.6830:

I keep seeing the same kitten quoted by people “5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown” and similar. Uh NO it is NOT. No one attunes just for the boon and then attunes back right away (that’s the only case where it would be remotely close to 10s). Attunements are not kits and are a class profession. It’s like me complaining about ranger pets being too stonkk kitten kitten.

This does bring up a good point: What is a d/d ele’s protection up-time?

First, What’s a reasonable time between Earth attunement swaps? I think 15sec – 20sec is a good estimate.

If we look at at 60 second window (hopefully a battle will be decided by then), we have the following sources for self-protection:

• 6 sec from Armor of Earth
• 10 sec from Shocking Aura x2
• 5 sec from Frost Aura
• 15 sec from Elemental Attunement (Earth) x3
• +30% boon duration from 6 points in Arcane

Add it up and the d/d ele gets 46.8 seconds of Protection on himself in that 60 second window – 78% uptime. Group is only affected by Elemental Attunement, so that’s 19.5 seconds – 32.5% uptime.

Show me one top ele that spams Armor of Earth and Shocking Aura off cooldown.

jportell.2197:

Supreme.3164:

jportell.2197:

bluberblasen.9684:

jportell.2197:

Supreme.3164:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tao.5096:

True! Very True!
Celestial Amulet must be removed from PvP Arena.
It’s the only way to balance PvP in Gw2.
Anet must remove it asap.

il hope this is sarcasm if not well you know they could nerf a bit the classes that benefit from it too much and buff some builds and classes that barely benefit anything from it.

what this is called ? hmmmm oh yeah Balancing….

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?
I think it’s got to do with the d/d ele 1vs1 capabilities, basically all complaints are based on 1vs1 scenarios..unless you find me a single :" nerf staff " thread.

Staff eles uses elemental attunement, somes take elemental shielding and they can stack might just as good, so what’s the difference?..you tell me.

After all 90% of nerf threads are based on 1vs1 scenarios

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort.

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles.

and increase the health to medium.

Except d/d eles arent using these tools just to survive. They are dominating with them.

You can’t dominate anything if you’re forced at mele range and you lack the tools to survive at that range

Lol then why are d/d eles dominating right now? I posted nimbers from the WTS quals on class/amulet usage. I believe 64% (29 out of the 45) of the players were all ising celestial amulets. 11 of the 29 were eles with warriors and engis tied at 9. Those numbers are still pretty harsh considering the small sample size of the survey.

Personally I don’t care how many eles are found in any tournament, for all I care you could have 0 eles and it’d be perfectly fine for me.

Why ele is deemed OP in PvP has already been explained dozen of times, and all the reasons given steer clear from all the “suggestion” I’ve seen in this thread.

The suggestions I have given would make ele less pronouncing in PvP while not destroying its overall presence in the rest of the game, because after all I and others don’t care who win ESL, WTS or whatever and we don’t care how many eles are used by Abjure, Absurd or whatever.

Seriously there is no end to this discussion, if you want to nerf the ele to oblivion then FINE! It seems there is no reasoning with people on a MMO forum, so go on and nerf the profession to the ground….but limit yourself to PvP ty

xDudisx.5914:

Simon.3794:

Elemental Attunement, please

5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown is already ridic, when combined with 2 ele, it’s even more ridic..

Elemental attunement is a master trait. Out of 4 boons only 2 are really good: protection and regen. Regen is good mostly because sinergizes with other traits. The other 2 swiftness and 1stack of might are weak. The self protection should stay the same. Protection is here for a reason eles have low hp and light armor.

I would say that elemental shielding, a minor trait, giving 3s base protection (4s traited) is the real problematic one. Maybe they could change from 3s protection to 2s swiftness+2s protection. Or any other boon like retal. Look at how Zephy’s boons works. Has 2 boons on a higher base duration (5s) and is not as op as Elemental shielding.

While elemental attunement can work with any ele weapon elemental shielding works better in main hand dagger users. This happens because if you have a main hand dagger you have 2 auras. Staff or scepter will have only 1. Nerfing elemental attunement will hurt almost all ele builds. Nerf elemental shielding will be a bigger nerf for d/d than anything else.

ill give me thoughts here.

I’m not saying that elemantal attunement is strong because the boons it provide to ele himself, but the AoE effect. doubled with another ele, you get on insanely high on demand team protection that has no counter play other then boon strip, not only for regular team sustain, also useful for rezzes etc
we should look at it’s supportive effect, maybe lower it for boons duration applied to allies.

as of elemental shielding, it will just kill ele’s self survivbility which can easily results in DD build being completely dead if we don’t be careful about it, it’s meant to be work good with DD because DD is a close ranged weapon set which is why they gave it so many access to aura..

personally, i’ve suggested a different way of making elemental shielding less good for DD, which is increase cast time on Magnetic Grasp to 3/4. this is the combo DD use to chain their protection. So this is a dagger skill which DD used to chain protection via fire aura via elemental shielding. so basically it will make DD chain protection more difficult by providing more counter plays, not simply nerfing the trait and affect every single build out there.

but i don’t really care w/e you guys want to do with this trait,

imo elemental attunement is one OP trait that makes multi ele insanely desirable in teams not elemental shielding.

Supreme.3164:

Nerf what exactly? A staff celestial uses exactly the same trait set up of a D/D, still nobody complaints about it, why?

Not exactly. They use the same or similar point allocation, but their trait selections are different in a couple key areas:

• The 2 in earth are used for Earth’s Embrace compared with Elemental Shielding. So less protection up-time. Sometimes these two points are in Air instead.
• Blasting Staff is used in place of Renewing Stamina. That forces Sigil of Energy in place of Sigil of Battle or Doom. Sigil of Energy gives roughly the same number of dodges that Renewing Stamina would provide (Vigor is an extra 5% endurance per second and you need 50% for one dodge). But as a result, staff has less damage or anti-sustain in a fight.

Some other comparisons:

• Both have an evade: Burning Speed (0.75sec duration on 15sec CD) and Burning Retreat (1sec duration on 20sec CD)
• Staff has a 6sec CD blast finisher on earth, though it doesn’t do the finisher immediately so it has to be timed well. D/D has a 15sec CD blast finisher in water and a 45sec blast finisher on earth and another on a 30sec CD with a long cast time. Both have a blast finisher from Evasive Arcana in earth. So staff will probably have a bit less might through the course of a fight.
• Staff has more healing on water attunement skills, but it requires staying in the area to get the full benefit.
• D/D has more chill
• D/D has arguably more Burning application.
• D/D has a cripple in earth and its immobilize is much better than staff’s.
• Staff doesn’t have a very good #1 for single-target damage in any attunment. Lightning Whip has decent damage output.
• CC looks roughly the same when you look at all the abilities. Shocking Aura, Updraft, Earthquake for D/D and Gust, Static Field, and Unsteady Ground for Staff.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Show me one top ele that spams Armor of Earth and Shocking Aura off cooldown.

So you’re not going to use it at some point during a fight that lasts at least a minute? The assumption was that all these abilities are off cooldown at the start. So that means you only have to wait through one cooldown cycle of Shocking Aura (25 seconds) . That’s perfectly reasonable.

The 6s cooldown on eruption doesn’t really work very well. You need to drop it first and then change to water/fire to blast a field. So it is at least 10s cd before you use it to blast your own field again. Most of staff’s dmg can be avoided by walking away from the circle

jportell.2197:

So you think the nerfs need to happen specifically to the d/d weaponset. Okay here goes

• Burning speed-no longer an evade, one of their hardest hitting skills on this weaponset should be interruptable barring them having stability or something of the sort.

• Frozen Burst- No longer a blast finisher

• Cone of Cold-Reduced the amount of healing done with this skill

• Drakes Breath- Reduced the burning duration (again.)

• Elemental shielding- Increase the duration to 10s but move it up to master tier. This may affect staff eles but nowhere near as much as d/d eles.

The first two of those changes are what brought ele from the bottom tier to the top. If you reverse them and nerf eles more, they will be even worse than before.

About burning speed, I believe whirlwind attack is even more powerful yet no one cries about it. You can still abuse walls with it despite nerfs to all fire trail skills. And burning speed is easily dodgeable, unlike whirlwind attack from point blank.

Your suggestion will just overnerf that weapon set, anet should shave gradually (obviously more often than now) instead of doing knee jerk nerfs.

Honestly, I’d rather fight CEle than CEngie, the former uses highly telegraphed skills while the latter has insta CC, has similiar escape capabilites and can fight from longer distance.

I think that the healing is fine as it is. The main problem is the protection from auras and way too much dmg for a hibrid. And the perma vigor from renewing stamina.

Staff for example has kitten burning on a 10s coodown. No one says it is op. Make drake breath more like flame burst. More cooldown or less duration.

rotten.9753:

The first two of those changes are what brought ele from the bottom tier to the top. If you reverse them and nerf eles more, they will be even worse than before.

Burning Speed evade frames and Frozen Burst blast didn’t affect much..

The introduction of Celestial Stats, and the nerf revert to Cleansing Water, that pretty much launched Ele from garbo tier to SS Tier. It had sweet little to do with Burning Speed or Frozen Burst changes.

Exedore.6320:

-snip.

You’re saying that staff and D/D play the same trait set up at 80%, still there are nerf requests for traits shared by both builds ( elemental attunement, cleansing water etc etc)

I repeat the question : Why is that there are no nerf requests for staff?

-They say that d/d with those traits support too much….but staff ele can support as much with those traits, if no more

-They say d/d can have easy access to protection therefore elemental shielding must be nerfed…I can have 2 auras on staff too; Frozen ground + blast finisher = frozen aura and it’s aoe Frozen aura( for allies too ) and then there is magnetic shield

-I can heal the team more that d/d ele ever will, can support better and can CC more

What I can’t do very well on staff is 1VS1 and that’s the reason, the real reason behind nerf requests. It’s got nothing to do with the support capabilities of an ele

Let me teach you something, on a MMO forum people don’t go to complain about the support capabilities of a profession, they will only complain about the 1VS1 capabilities of a profession.

Nerf requests are normally selfish in nature. If you’d improve the 1vs1 potential of a staff ele..tomorrow you’d see somebody complain how staff ele is OP and breaks the game with its support potential, nobody cares about support in reality, all they want is to win that 1vs1

Chaith.8256:

Burning Speed evade frames and Frozen Burst blast didn’t affect much..

The introduction of Celestial Stats, and the nerf revert to Cleansing Water, that pretty much launched Ele from garbo tier to SS Tier. It had sweet little to do with Burning Speed or Frozen Burst changes.

So slightly adjust celestial? Because I’d rather have more mechanics in skills than raw stats (which don’t change gameplay) from amulets.

Chaith.8256:

rotten.9753:

The first two of those changes are what brought ele from the bottom tier to the top. If you reverse them and nerf eles more, they will be even worse than before.

Burning Speed evade frames and Frozen Burst blast didn’t affect much..

The introduction of Celestial Stats, and the nerf revert to Cleansing Water, that pretty much launched Ele from garbo tier to SS Tier. It had sweet little to do with Burning Speed or Frozen Burst changes.

That same patch introduced a lot of sigil and rune changes as well, which to me highlights the issue the best: it’s not just 1 thing. It’s not just the cele amulet, IMO. It’s not just might, or just elementalist skills. It’s a lot of things together that push ele over the top, so the hard part is deciding which ones to tone down, because blanket changes to runes, sigils, and amulets hit all classes (which may not be bad in some cases), and elementalist trait changes hit many ele builds.

Supreme.3164:

I repeat the question : Why is that there are no nerf requests for staff?

-They say that d/d with those traits support too much….but staff ele can support as much with those traits, if no more

-They say d/d can have easy access to protection therefore elemental shielding must be nerfed…I can have 2 auras on staff too; Frozen ground + blast finisher = frozen aura and it’s aoe Frozen aura( for allies too ) and then there is magnetic wave

-I can heal the team more that d/d ele ever will, can support better and can CC more

What I can’t do very well on staff is 1VS1 and that’s the reason, the real reason behind nerf requests. It’s got nothing to do with the support capabilities of an ele

Let me teach you something, on a MMO forum people don’t go to complain about the support capabilities of a profession, they will only complain about the 1VS1 capabilities of a profession.

Nerf requests are normally selfish in nature. If you’d improve the 1vs1 potential of a staff ele..tomorrow you’d see somebody complain how staff ele is OP and breaks the game with its support potential, nobody cares about support in reality, all they want is to win that 1vs1

Why are there no requests for staff nerfs? Because while strong in it’s own right, staff is just an inferior fit to complementing current PvP team comps, with the top profession picks. Staff Ele is a much better fit for 4v4+ teamfights.

I could go on about micro details of why Staff is PvP-inferior to dagger at the moment, like: the burning uptime of it is very low, the damage is ridiculously telegraphed to the point of uselessness in small scale fights, it synergizes poorly with Signet of Renewal.

But the big picture is that reliable pressure & sustain will always trump the Staff Ele’s niche toolbox, when unsuitable 3-point strats and off-node skirmish strats are being employed very often.

Staff Ele will shine when comps focus on 2 point strats, and are comprised of support-friendly allies. That is not now, so, that’s why Staff Ele is not a player right now and everyone isn’t screaming nerfbat. Not because it’s underpowered but just because it doesn’t fit in.

d/d has more mobility than staff.

d/d is better at landing dmg. If you don’t stay inside lava fond, avoid ice spike and eruption staff does almost no dmg. The autoatk will land but it is not that great. Eruption is the only good source of bleeding for staff and it has 1.25s cast + a long time until it explodes. d/d has a much easier time landing direct and condi dmg.

Staff is giving more support but at the cost of having much less mobility and less 1v1 offensive power.

Celestial does more than anything in this game to shut down build diversity. It means playing squishy classes becomes hard because there is so much damage in the game. It makes playing support roles pointless. It makes a ton of stuff pointless because why pigeon hole yourself? Celestial specs can do everything. They can rotate quickly, can hold points, can do damage, can 2v2, can 1v1, can 2v3, can 3,2. They can do everything VERY well. They are the masters of all trades.

The best downed cleave in the game is a celestial engineer. So a tanky spec = most downed cleave in the game. That is not a good thing. If you take tanky specs you should be punished with a lack or damage and/or mobility. It is just common sense.

Exactly this @Chaith!

You’re basically enforcing my point, the “problem” that people have with d/d it’s not the trait set up; which used also by staff eles; but rather the skirmishing potential and this is real truth behind the nerf requests. It’s not cleansing water, it’s not elemental attunement, it’s not elemental shielding and it’s not the condi clear potential…because staff ele has got them all( even more condi clear) and it’s still not used.

If D/D is 10, other specs ( shatter; terrormancer; s/d+d/p; med guardian ect etc) are 8-9, where staff is 6-7.
If you nerfs the traits , you bring D/D to 7/8 while staff goes down from 6-7 to 3-4 so…

STEP 1
The Traits are not the problem and obviously not the solution

That leaves skills and amulet as possible solution.

-Shall we increase the CD of burning speed, drake’s breath?
-Add wind up animation to updraft and magnetic grasp?
-Shall we reduce the stats on cele amulet by 50 pts?

xDudisx.5914

Staff is giving more support but at the cost of having much less mobility and less 1v1 offensive power.

This reinforce my point even more, traits are not the problem, despite sharing the same survival traits, you still lose 1vs1 when using staff, so…

Rickster.8752:

The best downed cleave in the game is a celestial engineer. So a tanky spec = most downed cleave in the game.

In the Good Fights era I ran Berserker Grenade Engi, if you think the cleave is filthy now, you should have seen it then, lol.

@Supreme.3164

Staff and d/d don’t use 100% the same traits. Staff doen’t have Renewing Stamina because it needs Blasting staff.
Staff has 1 aura while d/d has 2. Final shielding is a problematic trait that only affects d/d.

Those 2 traits are in need of a nerf.

Staff has 2 auras that can be accessed as fast as d/d( and frozen aura on staff is aoe), this can have additional aura with MG combo. Blasting staff is a choice not a requirement ( the effect radius remain the same where needed so the trait makes lava font a little easier to hit with), renewing stamina can be triggered (well…almost as good as d/d) on a staff, where a single lava font alone can crit , you can chain skills on relative long CD to rigger RS, multiple times ( even though renewing is 5s cd). At equal skill level a staff ele can dodge as much as a d/d if both uses renewing stamina

-edit- a good ele wins at 100% even without those traits, those traits won’t make a new/average ele win when eating all possible dmg…no, having protection doesn’t make you unkillable like people wants you to believe

@Jarvis

I have been playing with the meta build off and on for a couple of months now. I understand the rotations, the need to break rotations, interrupts, cleansing w/ cantrips/water attunement, how to stack might, etc. – but I cannot kill anything. All the studying in the world isn’t helping because of how long it takes for me to get set up. These are usually the scenarios that happen to me when I’m in a 1v1 encounter:

- It’s a burst class, and I’m killed before I can get through any part of my rotation. Can’t get might stacks, can’t do damage, and breaking my rotation to play dynamically just causes even more problem. This is especially true vs lb ranger & s/d thief.

- It’s a bunker build, and I can’t damage him. I get might stacks up, position correctly, but nothing does enough damage to burn him down.

It seems the only place I’m able to have any success is in a 2v2 situation because I cause so much chaos. However, I usually get cc’d in that scenario (even after I cleanse out of it) and beaten down. All the wins I’ve seen in videos make sense until I try those strategies myself and fall on my face. I’m really frustrated. I keep hearing how powerful this build is, andI like the jack of all trades aspect of this class so much, but I feel like I shine in no situation. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

PS – Here is the build I’ve been using: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/Dagger

Protection, even having “perma” protection doesn’t make you a god

If you are considering blast frost field for +1 aura let’s also consider that d/d can leap on fire field and get 3 auras. d/d still has more

Anyway it is not like everyone is trying to get a frost aura instead of blasting a fire/water field.

Protection alone is not god mode but when combined with the build that has one of the best self sustain/healing in the game it is pretty much god mode against almost every non meta build.

xDudisx.5914:

If you are considering blast frost field for +1 aura let’s also consider that d/d can leap on fire field and get 3 auras. d/d still has more

Anyway it is not like everyone is trying to get a frost aura instead of blasting a fire/water field.

Don’t argue with him, clearly he wants to make that point really really bad. How Staff vs. D/D ever became the topic, that’s a mystery tho.

Chaith.8256:

xDudisx.5914:

If you are considering blast frost field for +1 aura let’s also consider that d/d can leap on fire field and get 3 auras. d/d still has more

Anyway it is not like everyone is trying to get a frost aura instead of blasting a fire/water field.

Don’t argue with him, clearly he wants to make that point really really bad. How Staff vs. D/D ever became the topic, that’s a mystery tho.

I’m not arguing…because I’m not trying to change people mind which is impossible on a MMO forum. It’s clear that people want to nerf d/d badly, and nothing will change their mind..nothing.

They’re giving their reasons and I’m giving my reasons why it should not, the rest is up to the devs to decide but at the very least I’m giving another point of view, whether valid or not..again it’s not up to you to decide because you’re not a dev.

Why you would ever think I’d be concerned of convincing you of anything…I dunno

edit- I dare to say that I find your reasoning of keeping celestial around and expect everything else to be nerfed around it….rather poor taste, I still respect you as individual but as player who promote himself as TOP player ( that by virtue of the term alone should promote the development of an equal playing field in pvp)…you won’t have any respect from me…sorry about that

Supreme.3164:

Exactly this @Chaith!

You’re basically enforcing my point, the “problem” that people have with d/d it’s not the trait set up; which used also by staff eles; but rather the skirmishing potential and this is real truth behind the nerf requests. It’s not cleansing water, it’s not elemental attunement, it’s not elemental shielding and it’s not the condi clear potential…because staff ele has got them all( even more condi clear) and it’s still not used.

If D/D is 10, other specs ( shatter; terrormancer; s/d+d/p; med guardian ect etc) are 8-9, where staff is 6-7.
If you nerfs the traits , you bring D/D to 7/8 while staff goes down from 6-7 to 3-4 so…

STEP 1
The Traits are not the problem and obviously not the solution

That leaves skills and amulet as possible solution.

-Shall we increase the CD of burning speed, drake’s breath?
-Add wind up animation to updraft and magnetic grasp?
-Shall we reduce the stats on cele amulet by 50 pts?

xDudisx.5914

Staff is giving more support but at the cost of having much less mobility and less 1v1 offensive power.

This reinforce my point even more, traits are not the problem, despite sharing the same survival traits, you still lose 1vs1 when using staff, so…

I can understand this PoV – adjusting traits have negative affects on other builds/wpn sets. You mentioned two possible solution such as changing amulets and skills but I also want to mention one more option – Buff other classes to deal with the Cele meta.

I think quite a few people are reasonable in their requests, it’s just there are those who do not seem to understand/admit the absurdity of what’s going on. From those doing actual detective work being on the side that says there needs to be nerfed vs. those just posting opinions without anything factual backing it up is what confuses me most.

Heck, if you really wanted to boil it down to a most of basic of levels just look at it this way…..class stacking. In fact, there has been less class diversity in spvp than ever before. It’s been posted time and time again but instead of putting a compelling argument on those who think the class is “in a good spot,” we just get baseless opinions.

Arken.3725:

I think quite a few people are reasonable in their requests, it’s just there are those who do not seem to understand/admit the absurdity of what’s going on. From those doing actual detective work being on the side that says there needs to be nerfed vs. those just posting opinions without anything factual backing it up is what confuses me most.

Heck, if you really wanted to boil it down to a most of basic of levels just look at it this way…..class stacking. In fact, there has been less class diversity in spvp than ever before. It’s been posted time and time again but instead of putting a compelling argument on those who think the class is “in a good spot,” we just get baseless opinions.

Faking a natural stance while maintaining a clear biased point of view….

Luckily you’ve given me the tools to dismiss your own claim.
You talk about the negativity of class stacking and with that I agree with you, as this thread focuses on the stacking of eles in PvP by tournament winning teams, I think that asking you to find me evidence of ele stacking prior to the April 2014 patch won’t prove to be too difficult…ty for your time and “unbiased” perspective

You’re right, there was no class-stacking prior to that patch. It literally only took 1 patch to go from being un-viable to completely dominating the spvp scene. Not to be rude but I’ve seen no “tools” of yours to dismiss any claim I’ve made that HAS been backed up by evidence.

Remember the post where you stated a Bunker Guardian would stay alive longer than a d/d celestial right now and would post video’s to prove it? Where are the videos?

I’m not trying to turn this into a negative discussion but one where FACTS trump subjectivity. There have been numerous posts that post numbers/facts to the situation as to why this profession is incredibly strong but it’s been consistently dismissed.

I think you’ve answered your own questions.

You want FACTS, well as you’ve said the ele was considered “unviable” by the community before the April patch, the ele had still access to those traits now deemed OP, we had elemental attunement and shielding and condi clear was not that way worst compared to now,we had already soothing wave adept, it wasn’t that bad really even with the ICD on cleansing water GM…still ele was considered UP.

Those same traits received no buff whatsoever with the patch. Now they’re suddenly considered OP? HOW?

I would agree 100% with you, if teams would stack zerker/soldier/valk/cleric D/D with the same trait set up and would obtain the same results in every single instance, if that would ever been the case then teams would have used double ele D/d way before the April patch….but no double ele, even a single ele was deemed a miracle.

How can you possible tell me that a double ele D/D using same trait set up but different amulet would yield the same results of a double cele comp..when there is no team running anything but celestial amulet?

So here are the FACTS:

-Before April 2014 : same traits + different amulet = Ele is considered UP
-After April 2014 : same traits + CELESTIAL = Ele is considered OP

What more facts do you need?

-edit: about the video I clearly asked you to first try guardian and then ele vs me and my friend, than see for yourself how long you can “bunker” as the point was to establish which profession was able to hold the most in a outnumbered fight. Your answer was :" I can’t play ele"