Guild Wars 2

Arken.3725:

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Well I played Ele since Beta and I get my facts from all the patch notes for all the nerfs since then (the first one was to damage, then cantrips change, the more recent ones were to mobility/range and cooldown timers etc).

And yes all classes have an Achilles heel.

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Well I played Ele since Beta and I get my facts from all the patch notes for all the nerfs since then (the first one was to damage, then cantrips change, the more recent ones were to mobility/range and cooldown timers etc).

And yes all classes have an Achilles heel.

Really and what is an ele’s achilles heel? Please do tell. Wanna talk about nerfed into the ground… How about dat double whammy blurred frenzy nerf, OR even better the gauranteed removal of any confusion mesmers in pvp.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

Elementalist
I don’t play elementalist much, so I can only list things which seem too strong at a glance. But since the last balance patch with the nerfs to might, they don’t seem overly strong. I would only expect some small tweaks.

• Renewing Stamina: This trait gives 5sec of Vigor on a 5sec ICD. Most other professions’ vigor on crit trait was increased to a 10sec ICD.
• Blast Finishers: These give elementalists a lot of might and d/d has access to a lot of them. Maybe cut one out or tweak cooldowns?
• Signet of Restoration: Passive healing is hard to counter. A tiny shave of the healing per cast amount could add up over time.

Engineer
One big change would really bring engineer in-line.

• Incendiary Powder x100: This is the most frustrating skill to go up against. The effect application has zero counter-play (cooldown isn’t wasted if you whiff the attack) and with the large variety of conditions a condi or cele rifle engineer puts out, it’s very hard to remove. Any build 30 into explosives ups the duration to 5 seconds, which is over 2000 damage on a cele build. At the very least reduce it to 3 seconds (from 4) so that the trait line won’t add an extra second without investment in condition duration runes/sigils. 1200 damage every ~10 seconds is a lot more reasonable for something with little counter-play. Also suggest limiting the proc to rifle and pistol critical hits so that it’s harder to bury in a pile of conditions from grenades.
• Slick Shoes: I would cut the skill duration to 2 seconds (from 3) and leave the oil slick duration alone. It’s hard to tell by testing in-game, but it seems that you can’t be knocked down from the same oil slick multiple times; you’re knocked down my the successive oil slicks which engis circle strafe around you. Limiting how many slicks they put down would emphasize skillful use while still preserving the utility’s function as a make-shift line of warding.
• Transmute: Just extremely frustrating when a key blind, fear, or immobilize is converted. Suggest limiting it to only damaging conditions.
• Gear Shield: Main issue is the Power Wrench trait reducing the cooldown to 16 seconds. Could probably live with 25 seconds base (from 20) though.
• Overcharged Shot: I wouldn’t change this ability just yet. Yes, it’s hard to avoid, but it’s kept in check by the self-CC. It’s rather unique in that regard. Engineers tend to have limited stun breaks and stability, so poor use of Overcharged Shot punishes the engineer.

1) Your proposed change would still make no significant difference, it’s a matter of keeping constant pressure not trying to burs down a target, pressure is what D/D is good at

2) Warrior has longbow; Thief has short-bow and pistol; Mesmer has Greatsword and staff; Necro has scepter and staff; Guardian has scepter and sword; Ranger has shortbow, torch, axe and Longbow and Engi has rifle/pistol..which profession has not access to viable ranged option…lol it’s just ele yeah [ talking from a meta point of view]

3)Problem is d/d is not god mode, it’s just a personal opinion.Sure the spec is effective hence is meta, but god mode? really no..if anything is the player that can make it god like, bring me a mediocre d/d ele and you’ll kiss the ground in no time, my 2 cents

Give us access to Nomad’s please….and then nerf it.

Supreme.3164:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I’ve been discussing this build with a few people and wanted to know if people thought this was enough:

1. Ring of Earth – Animation to show that the projectile blocking is in effect.
2. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Otherwise, this build feels pretty balanced to me now. The damage isn’t scary. It’s pretty good pressure, but it’s something I think you earn. The support is strong, but that’s kind of the ele niche in this build. They invested heavily into water so they got a lot of support from it.

Those changes would be more than enough at high levels, which you know it’s clearly not the case on the forums.

A good player facing an ele that use LF and updraft in combo, knows that the ele has just used two high CD skills and the combo can be easily negated:

-You can blind the ele attempting burning speed
-You can block, waiting ofc to be updrafted and negate the upcoming burning speed

Many way to negate the combo without using a single stun breaker, all in all those suggestions are not clearly enough for the type of audience you get on the forums

Standard engineer builds don’t have a good way of doing this without stun breaking. Same with warrior. Thief would have to blow steal.

jportell.2197:

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Well I played Ele since Beta and I get my facts from all the patch notes for all the nerfs since then (the first one was to damage, then cantrips change, the more recent ones were to mobility/range and cooldown timers etc).

And yes all classes have an Achilles heel.

Really and what is an ele’s achilles heel? Please do tell. Wanna talk about nerfed into the ground… How about dat double whammy blurred frenzy nerf, OR even better the gauranteed removal of any confusion mesmers in pvp.

How about 50% nerf on healing on healing ripple and cleansing water? Guess you don’t even know that, pls check GW2 2012 balance updates
How about removal of dmg from sceptre water 2 and earth 2/3? again check 2012 updates; that’s when scepter was nerfed into the ground and never recovered

Then there is the removal of stunbreakers from cleansing fire and Lightning flash, reduction of regen/vigor on soothing disruption, adept traits moved to master, dmg reduction on 2 elites out of 3

jportell.2197:

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Well I played Ele since Beta and I get my facts from all the patch notes for all the nerfs since then (the first one was to damage, then cantrips change, the more recent ones were to mobility/range and cooldown timers etc).

And yes all classes have an Achilles heel.

Really and what is an ele’s achilles heel?

Me. I’ll let you know when it’s meta.

jportell.2197:

Really and what is an ele’s achilles heel? Please do tell.

Ele’s achilles heel has always been well-timed burst (after water), both condition and power. If an ele gets bursted after leaving water, he can’t recover and WILL die. A lot of the best eles are able to avoid bursts with dodges or positioning when trouble is imminent, but this is how ele dies. Yes, a thief generally shouldn’t 1v1 an ele, but if they time their burst on an ele in a +1 situation correctly, the fight is over almost immediately. By comparison, other bunkers (like guards) are much better at recovering from large bursts.

Also, well-timed boon-strip wrecks an ele. Take off the might and they hit like a wet noodle. Take off the prot/vigor and they melt.

It just so happens that the current meta is a lot of sustained damage and cleave that makes it dangerous for many bursters (or that they don’t practice enough together to coordinate their bursts with perfect timing), and plays into the weakness of straight bunkers (like bunker guards).

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Supreme.3164:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I’ve been discussing this build with a few people and wanted to know if people thought this was enough:

1. Ring of Earth – Animation to show that the projectile blocking is in effect.
2. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Otherwise, this build feels pretty balanced to me now. The damage isn’t scary. It’s pretty good pressure, but it’s something I think you earn. The support is strong, but that’s kind of the ele niche in this build. They invested heavily into water so they got a lot of support from it.

Those changes would be more than enough at high levels, which you know it’s clearly not the case on the forums.

A good player facing an ele that use LF and updraft in combo, knows that the ele has just used two high CD skills and the combo can be easily negated:

-You can blind the ele attempting burning speed
-You can block, waiting ofc to be updrafted and negate the upcoming burning speed

Many way to negate the combo without using a single stun breaker, all in all those suggestions are not clearly enough for the type of audience you get on the forums

Standard engineer builds don’t have a good way of doing this without stun breaking. Same with warrior. Thief would have to blow steal.

I believe the use of a 40s utility followed by another 40s CD skill should be enough to guarantee the use of a stunbreaker when everything else fail. While I’m not again the addition of a wind up animation, the combo itself doesn’t come at small price and can be negated quite efficiently.

For example a warrior or ranger can use fear ( shout from warrior and dog from rangers) and engi can potentially blow a turret for the aoe knockback

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Only if they do the same thing to overcharged shot, death shroud 3 and nightmare proc.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Only if they do the same thing to overcharged shot, death shroud 3 and nightmare proc.

I’m more than okay with this. Although Necro deserves a present for losing Doom because they really don’t have much else.

I don’t think overpowered is the right word to describe cele ele/engi/war…

They can all be beaten. The problem is that they are more useful to a team than the remaining 5 classes.

Does that mean they are OP? Not really, you can kill them. But they provide more buffs/support to their team while they are still alive.

As others have said it is more of a conquest issue. Because the game mode relies on 1+ players gathering on a point, the builds that can stay alive and buff their team mates are the most useful.

IMO the sustain/cele meta does not lend itself well to classes having specific roles, as you are likely to have 3 cele classes on every team. Moreover if you are going to have 8 classes (soon to be 9) and 5 roles, then every class needs to be able to do something just as well as another class.

At the moment we definitely don’t have that sort of balance.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Only if they do the same thing to overcharged shot, death shroud 3 and nightmare proc.

I’m more than okay with this. Although Necro deserves a present for losing Doom because they really don’t have much else.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm

RTL+Updraft is fine as-is. Unless the elementalist +1’s the fight, you can easily see it coming and side-step, dodge, or stability for it. Updraft also self-CC’s for the 1 second evade, so it’s not like the elementalist gets to beat on you for the full duration of Updraft’s launch.

Here is a simplified look at the meta roles:

Jack of all trades: Ele/Engi
Support: Shoutbow
DPS/Mobility: Thief
DPS: Ranger/Guard/Mezmer/Necro

Guard should obviously compete with shoutbow for a support role, so it needs a buff there.

Ranger should probably be as mobile as thief to compete with that role.

Mezmer/Necro/Revenant I have no idea. They seem way out of the meta.

BlackBeard.2873:

jportell.2197:

Really and what is an ele’s achilles heel? Please do tell.

Ele’s achilles heel has always been well-timed burst (after water), both condition and power. If an ele gets bursted after leaving water, he can’t recover and WILL die. A lot of the best eles are able to avoid bursts with dodges or positioning when trouble is imminent, but this is how ele dies. Yes, a thief generally shouldn’t 1v1 an ele, but if they time their burst on an ele in a +1 situation correctly, the fight is over almost immediately. By comparison, other bunkers (like guards) are much better at recovering from large bursts.

Also, well-timed boon-strip wrecks an ele. Take off the might and they hit like a wet noodle. Take off the prot/vigor and they melt.

It just so happens that the current meta is a lot of sustained damage and cleave that makes it dangerous for many bursters (or that they don’t practice enough together to coordinate their bursts with perfect timing), and plays into the weakness of straight bunkers (like bunker guards).

That’s just it a well timed burst after water means nothing because of the following,

1. Armor of earth (vigor, regen, stab, and protection, making your burst useless)
2. Lightning Flash (Teleport regen, and vigor OH MY!)
3. Cleansing Fire (Vigor, regen, condi clear OH MY!)
4. Earth attunement (Protection! what burst you say?!) and if all else fails
5. Air attunement>RTL lightning whip auto attack to heal…

and then they have water attunement again. Not to mention each cantrip, is also a condi clear on it’s own.

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Novuake.2691:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

jportell.2197:

1. Armor of earth (vigor, regen, stab, and protection, making your burst useless)

75s CD

1. Lightning Flash (Teleport regen, and vigor OH MY!)

Regen and vigor are useless vs. BURST. These are tools that are strong vs. sustained damage.

1. Cleansing Fire (Vigor, regen, condi clear OH MY!)

40s CD, 3 condis. Once again about the TIMING, if you are condi burst, you bait out cleansing fire then burst your condis OH MY!!! (I can do this too!)

1. Earth attunement (Protection! what burst you say?!)

Boon strip (like steal or shatter), also, TIME YOUR BURST SO THEY DON’T HAVE PROT!!! Most eles try to go: fire—>earth—>water—>air. They are susceptible right after leaving water b/c they aren’t gonna get prot from earth for another ~8s (due to general ICD), and can’t heal with water. That means a total of ~4s window every 12s where they are truly susceptible to burst. This is the timing window.

1. Air attunement>RTL lightning whip auto attack to heal

RtL doesn’t escape a thief, it also is a self-stun if immobed. But why learn all your opponent’s skills and learn to proactively counterplay them? LW auto heals take quite a while (SUSTAINED HEAL). They are very susceptible if they are using RtL.

and then they have water attunement again. Not to mention each cantrip, is also a condi clear on it’s own.

1. Many eles don’t trait for regen on cantrip b/c: each cantrip is 1 condi clear (cleansing fire is 4 if traited), so that is 1 condi every 75s from armor of earth, 1 every 40s from LF, and 4 every 40 from cleansing fire. Most trait for cleanse on water-swaps (that is 1 condi every 10s).
2. That is what TIMING is all about. If you go AFTER water, they have a LONG time until both earth and water attunements. Chill them during this time and gg.

jportell.2197:

Novuake.2691:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

Engineer:

Incendiary Powder: Have a visual que as to when this will apply. This will allow for proper counterplay(evasion/blocking).

Overcharged Shot: Put a cast time of either 1/2 sec or 3/4 with a windup.

Poison Grenade: Make these blockable

Gear shield: Increase cd to 30 seconds.

Magnet: Make this visible through stealth.

Just some suggestions. Obviously the Ele/Engie community won’t like these but I think some of these would certainly help bringing them in line.

BlackBeard.2873:

jportell.2197:

1. Armor of earth (vigor, regen, stab, and protection, making your burst useless)

75s CD

1. Lightning Flash (Teleport regen, and vigor OH MY!)

Regen and vigor are useless vs. BURST. These are tools that are strong vs. sustained damage.

1. Cleansing Fire (Vigor, regen, condi clear OH MY!)

40s CD, 3 condis. Once again about the TIMING, if you are condi burst, you bait out cleansing fire then burst your condis OH MY!!! (I can do this too!)

1. Earth attunement (Protection! what burst you say?!)

Boon strip (like steal or shatter), also, TIME YOUR BURST SO THEY DON’T HAVE PROT!!! Most eles try to go: fire—>earth—>water—>air. They are susceptible right after leaving water b/c they aren’t gonna get prot from earth for another ~8s (due to general ICD), and can’t heal with water. That means a total of ~4s window every 12s where they are truly susceptible to burst. This is the timing window.

1. Air attunement>RTL lightning whip auto attack to heal

RtL doesn’t escape a thief, it also is a self-stun if immobed. But why learn all your opponent’s skills and learn to proactively counterplay them? LW auto heals take quite a while (SUSTAINED HEAL). They are very susceptible if they are using RtL.

and then they have water attunement again. Not to mention each cantrip, is also a condi clear on it’s own.

1. Many eles don’t trait for regen on cantrip b/c: each cantrip is 1 condi clear (cleansing fire is 4 if traited), so that is 1 condi every 75s from armor of earth, 1 every 40s from LF, and 4 every 40 from cleansing fire. Most trait for cleanse on water-swaps (that is 1 condi every 10s).
2. That is what TIMING is all about. If you go AFTER water, they have a LONG time until both earth and water attunements. Chill them during this time and gg.

And who has the best access to chill? Necros however how many necros are you seeing competetively lately? Oh just the same one on this broken team called the Abjured. All other necros either did it for one set, or just one game, then immediately swapped back out.

You are not going to convince anyone that celestial d/d ele and/or celestial rifle engi is not broken. These two specifically are on every SINGLE competitive team, some even have 2 of each and one thief, or necro to help with a lil extra damage.

You can not sit back and think that these specs are “A-OK” when nothing is countering them, and they are stacking teams. No build should be stackable it should have weankesses so glaring, that if you take more than one, the weaknesses are 2 fold. That is not how it is with these cele builds. Specifically d/d cele ele.

There is nothing that anyone can say that is going to convince myself and apparently several other players, that these specs are not gamebreakingly overpowered.

Arken.3725:

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

Those changes if made all at once would put ele on the same spot as the dhummfire patch. I would nerf few of those things but a bit less severely like 4s on elemental attunement and 2.5s on elemental shielding (we can use fractions after all)· Renewing staming with 10s icd should be made minor trait as well. Cleansing water maybe 3s icd so that you can’t cleanse everything at once. But even if so, those changes will just move ele more and more towards bunker gameplay.

jportell.2197:

And who has the best access to chill? Necros however how many necros are you seeing competetively lately? Oh just the same one on this broken team called the Abjured. All other necros either did it for one set, or just one game, then immediately swapped back out.

I don’t really understand this argument. If the best team is using a necro, it should mean it’s perfectly viable.

You are not going to convince anyone that celestial d/d ele and/or celestial rifle engi is not broken. These two specifically are on every SINGLE competitive team, some even have 2 of each and one thief, or necro to help with a lil extra damage.

They are but let’s not forget about shoutwars.

rotten.9753:

jportell.2197:

And who has the best access to chill? Necros however how many necros are you seeing competetively lately? Oh just the same one on this broken team called the Abjured. All other necros either did it for one set, or just one game, then immediately swapped back out.

I don’t really understand this argument. If the best team is using a necro, it should mean it’s perfectly viable.

You are not going to convince anyone that celestial d/d ele and/or celestial rifle engi is not broken. These two specifically are on every SINGLE competitive team, some even have 2 of each and one thief, or necro to help with a lil extra damage.

They are but let’s not forget about shoutwars.

Yes but shout bow is nowhere near as over the top as engis and eles

Swim.6830:

All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

What class is thief strong against?

jportell.2197:

There is nothing that anyone can say that is going to convince myself and apparently several other players, that these specs are not gamebreakingly overpowered.

Hyperbole doesn’t make your argument stronger. Are they popular? Of course. Are they great S tier builds? Yes. Are they “gamebreakingly overpowered” like the condi necro was when the dhuumfire patch hit or 100 nades? Not at all.

Numbers and solid reasoning will prove your point. Caps lock will not.

To everyone, I highly suggest you try out all of these builds in question. If you have not given them a real good shot, it’s very hard to talk intelligently about the build. Some players have asked for nerfs on skills that aren’t even used on standard D/D builds or skills that are generally considered fine. You might find that these builds aren’t broken when you play them.

Shiyo.3578:

Swim.6830:

All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

What class is thief strong against?

Every other berserker except dps guardian.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

There is nothing that anyone can say that is going to convince myself and apparently several other players, that these specs are not gamebreakingly overpowered.

Hyperbole doesn’t make your argument stronger. Are they popular? Of course. Are they great S tier builds? Yes. Are they “gamebreakingly overpowered” like the condi necro was when the dhuumfire patch hit or 100 nades? Not at all.

Numbers and solid reasoning will prove your point. Caps lock will not.

To everyone, I highly suggest you try out all of these builds in question. If you have not given them a real good shot, it’s very hard to talk intelligently about the build. Some players have asked for nerfs on skills that aren’t even used on standard D/D builds or skills that are generally considered fine. You might find that these builds aren’t broken when you play them.

As far as numbers go one only has to look at the most successful teams as of late. Celestial builds are stacking on nearly every single successful high end team. Those are numbers enough.

jportell.2197:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

There is nothing that anyone can say that is going to convince myself and apparently several other players, that these specs are not gamebreakingly overpowered.

Hyperbole doesn’t make your argument stronger. Are they popular? Of course. Are they great S tier builds? Yes. Are they “gamebreakingly overpowered” like the condi necro was when the dhuumfire patch hit or 100 nades? Not at all.

Numbers and solid reasoning will prove your point. Caps lock will not.

To everyone, I highly suggest you try out all of these builds in question. If you have not given them a real good shot, it’s very hard to talk intelligently about the build. Some players have asked for nerfs on skills that aren’t even used on standard D/D builds or skills that are generally considered fine. You might find that these builds aren’t broken when you play them.

As far as numbers go one only has to look at the most successful teams as of late. Celestial builds are stacking on nearly every single successful high end team. Those are numbers enough.

And yet the winner of the last two EU monthly finals (55hp monks) has 1 cele, 2 clerics, 2 berserker. Hmm…

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Shiyo.3578:

Swim.6830:

All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

What class is thief strong against?

Every other berserker except dps guardian.

So specs that don’t exist in PVP?

Shiyo.3578:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Shiyo.3578:

Swim.6830:

All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

What class is thief strong against?

Every other berserker except dps guardian.

So specs that don’t exist in PVP?

Because of thief.

jportell.2197:

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

No counter play means its broken. At least D/D allows you to fight the ele, instead of getting blasted to oblivion.

I like how people post random abilities for nerfing the heals and boon durations without thinking that it’s a class with low base HP with little to none other active defense (like stealth or mass evades). Also like how people mention Signet of Restoration but not warriors Healing Signet. All the changes would be fine if Eles got the base HP of a necro…

It’s easy to see who on this thread has fought D/D and knows what to do and who doesn’t.

Arken.3725:

jportell.2197:

Novuake.2691:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

What is your aim with these proposed changes? What ele would be if your suggestions would be taken into consideration?

Pls do not answer with something like :" it would make them weaker", show us and the devs that you know what you’re talking about
Describe multiple situations and how the changes would affect an ele respect to the current status and abilities showed at high levels, describe how each profession would benefit from these changes on ele; can you do that or “it makes them weaker” will be your best answer?

Nerf celestial ? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

lets see how many people using the berserker amulet…. hm ?
and how many builds using Berserker ?

there is barely a few class with a few builds that REALY can use celestial.

Novuake.2691:

jportell.2197:

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

No counter play means its broken. At least D/D allows you to fight the ele, instead of getting blasted to oblivion.

The ele community would be more than happy to remove the insta dmg in favour of abilities on scepter able to deal with stealthed enemies like PB attacks as the main reason why scepter is not viable is because of stealth ( which takes away the “High” away from Risk when facing other zerk builds)

The problem is not the sustain as every good ele or player who knows how ele works would say ( lack of sustain on scepter is something an unexperienced players would say), there is a lack of good sustain dmg ( for which again you can reduce burst capabilities if you like) and no way to deal with stealthed enemies like on dagger.

Supreme.3164:

The ele community would be more than happy to remove the insta dmg in favour of abilities on scepter able to deal with stealthed enemies like PB attacks as the main reason why scepter is not viable is because of stealth ( which takes away the “High” away from Risk when facing other zerk builds)

The problem is not the sustain as every good ele or player who knows how ele works would say ( lack of sustain on scepter is something an unexperienced players would say), there is a lack of good sustain dmg ( for which again you can reduce burst capabilities if you like) and no way to deal with stealthed enemies like on dagger.

Point is. Fresh Air is a lot harder to face than D/D when done well.

I am not saying either is broken.

Celestial is not really op, but their passive damage is. At least 60 of their damage is passive(burn on crit/geomancy/doom/fire field etc).They just outsustain you and kill you over time with their passive damage.It doesn’t really matter how well you dodge, or how you position yourself, cause 60% of their dame is passive.

pacwax.3402:

Celestial is not really op, but their passive damage is. At least 60 of their damage is passive(burn on crit/geomancy/doom/fire field etc).They just outsustain you and kill you over time with their passive damage.It doesn’t really matter how well you dodge, or how you position yourself, cause 60% of their dame is passive.

And how much of a d/d ele’s damage is passive and undodgeable? Doom is. I don’t even know why fire field is on that list, unless you’re counting the bit of burning you get from walking past the ring.

You can scream nerf Celestial all you want but Celestial isn’t doing anything other than making Eles more viable.
It’s passable for Engies imo, and near useless for other classes.

Even without Cele though, Eles would still kick your butt. Cele just helps them have all the things they lack. (because they bring sexy back)

Dirame.8521:

You can scream nerf Celestial all you want but Celestial isn’t doing anything other than making Eles more viable.
It’s passable for Engies imo, and near useless for other classes.

Even without Cele though, Eles would still kick your butt. Cele just helps them have all the things they lack. (because they bring sexy back)

At the moment Engi’s benefit more than Ele’s do. The might nerfs hit Ele’s a bit harder.

Supreme.3164:

Arken.3725:

jportell.2197:

Novuake.2691:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

What is your aim with these proposed changes? What ele would be if your suggestions would be taken into consideration?

Pls do not answer with something like :" it would make them weaker", show us and the devs that you know what you’re talking about
Describe multiple situations and how the changes would affect an ele respect to the current status and abilities showed at high levels, describe how each profession would benefit from these changes on ele; can you do that or “it makes them weaker” will be your best answer?

I’ll break it down for you. As I’ve stated many times and i’ll state it again:

-Drake’s breath still provides the highest AoE up time of burning of any other skill/trait in the game. I don’t think I need anymore information than that. For a skill that applies so much burning, single-target skills should be superior in the same fashion. This is not the case.

Elemental Attunement: This goes into the line of thinking that you’re being rewarded for nothing more than just swapping kits, that’s it. So instead of having 65% uptime, you’ll be down to 39-42% depending on the change. This would allow other professions more time to time their burst and not just look at a long-duration helmet.

Frozen Aura: For a spec that allows for so much hard/soft cc, bringing this down to 5 seconds doesn’t seem like much of a nerf. Not to mention it’s a pretty hard-counter to any sort of melee-based burst.

Cleansing Water: Again, as stated above, this allows Ele’s to have arguably the best condition removal without much thought-process involved. Giving Ele’s a more direct way of removing condition’s (such as cleansing fire) makes more sense instead of passive applications.

Elemental Shielding: Just goes back to my original argument of allowing for proper burst without worrying about the constant annoyance of so much dmg-reduction.

Renewing stamina: Vigor is arguably the strongest boon in the game. Bringing this down to what Guardian’s/Mesmer’s got nerfed with(while also making it a minor) would help.

My end argument is this: If you want to specialize into support/sustain, you should excel in one and be good in another. That’s it. You shouldn’t excel not only in the tree’s you’ve invested in but also other aspects of combat(cc/dmg/mobility). My example before was Bunker Guardian and how that was the case of having to specialize and being sub par at everything else. No one profession should be able to do EVERYTHING exceptionally well.

Novuake.2691:

jportell.2197:

Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.

No counter play means its broken. At least D/D allows you to fight the ele, instead of getting blasted to oblivion.

Both have their issue’s. While I completely understand the instant-ranged burst nature of S/F, it still is susceptible to burst/condi pressure.

Arken.3725:

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

Hello old friend. While maybe one of two of these could use a shave (especially elemental shielding, being as it is an adept-tier trait), I SINCERELY believe that you shouldn’t try to shave down a full-bunker (and cele d/d is full-bunker) ele’s sustain. Instead, you should focus on bringing down the damage (nerf to battle, drake’s breath, and might already started down this path). Nerfing the sustain of the class is a serious risk (as seen by previous rounds of nerfs that took ele straight to C tier for ~1 year). To do this, I would:

-Remove blast from frozen burst (this takes away another 4-5 stacks might on average)
- Perhaps remove one tick from Drake’s Breath (so you can only get 3 attacks)
- Make magnetic grasp blockable
- Shave lightning whip base damage, increase its scaling with power (so that cele eles are rewarded for properly stacking might, but weaker if they can’t just blast away their fire fields).
- (Maybe) Reduce the damage on lightning flash. This also reduces the instant-damage that a scepter ele can do, so we can give it a bit more sustained damage.

You’re probably right Blackbeard, i’m not saying my suggestions are right but rather putting up something I believe to be a bit over-the-top and why. Good to hear from you. I am just looking at it from a stand-point of up-time on too many powerful boons. I’d love to see them replace bunker guardian’s as the same role and nothing more when speccing the same way.

Edit: I guess my point is being incredibly strong against both forms of damage doesn’t jive with me, even when speccing into it.

BlackBeard.2873:

Arken.3725:

Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.

Ele:

Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).

Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.

Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.

Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.

Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.

Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.

Hello old friend. While maybe one of two of these could use a shave (especially elemental shielding, being as it is an adept-tier trait), I SINCERELY believe that you shouldn’t try to shave down a full-bunker (and cele d/d is full-bunker) ele’s sustain. Instead, you should focus on bringing down the damage (nerf to battle, drake’s breath, and might already started down this path). Nerfing the sustain of the class is a serious risk (as seen by previous rounds of nerfs that took ele straight to C tier for ~1 year). To do this, I would:

-Remove blast from frozen burst (this takes away another 4-5 stacks might on average)
- Perhaps remove one tick from Drake’s Breath (so you can only get 3 attacks)
- Make magnetic grasp blockable
- Shave lightning whip base damage, increase its scaling with power (so that cele eles are rewarded for properly stacking might, but weaker if they can’t just blast away their fire fields).
- (Maybe) Reduce the damage on lightning flash. This also reduces the instant-damage that a scepter ele can do, so we can give it a bit more sustained damage.

Sir full bunkers should not survive forever against a full burst. And they definitely shouldn’t have the damage output to make a full burst class go on the defensive. D/d Cele is not “full bunker” it’s “I have the damage to match your thief/mesmer and they can’t kill me because I can heal myself better than anyone in game”

Arken.3725:

You’re probably right Blackbeard, i’m not saying my suggestions are right but rather putting up something I believe to be a bit over-the-top and why. Good to hear from you. I am just looking at it from a stand-point of up-time on too many powerful boons. I’d love to see them replace bunker guardian’s as the same role and nothing more when speccing the same way.

Edit: I guess my point is being incredibly strong against both forms of damage doesn’t jive with me, even when speccing into it.

Well ele and guard are both good against both kinds of damage when specced for it, but ele is stronger against sustained condis/power damage, while guards are much better at bursts (with their burst cleanses, heals, block (shelter) and line of warding for better kiting). This is why guard was taken in the past over ele (which always had the healing potential), because it does better at being able to survive teamfights and secure stomps/resses. Ele is the bunker of choice now because it has good damage (and decent mobility) on a bunker spec. Take away the damage a bit and the picture muddies some more.

BlackBeard.2873:

Arken.3725:

You’re probably right Blackbeard, i’m not saying my suggestions are right but rather putting up something I believe to be a bit over-the-top and why. Good to hear from you. I am just looking at it from a stand-point of up-time on too many powerful boons. I’d love to see them replace bunker guardian’s as the same role and nothing more when speccing the same way.

Edit: I guess my point is being incredibly strong against both forms of damage doesn’t jive with me, even when speccing into it.

Well ele and guard are both good against both kinds of damage when specced for it, but ele is stronger against sustained condis/power damage, while guards are much better at bursts (with their burst cleanses, heals, block (shelter) and line of warding for better kiting). This is why guard was taken in the past over ele (which always had the healing potential), because it does better at being able to survive teamfights and secure stomps/resses. Ele is the bunker of choice now because it has good damage (and decent mobility) on a bunker spec. Take away the damage a bit and the picture muddies some more.

I think it needs a bit more than just taking away the damage. You’d still have sustain/cc/mobility and some support. Again, if an elementalist wants to be a bunker, by all means. But that’s all you should do well in. If we’re talking about burst cleanses, Elementalist matches them and surpasses them in a sustained fight. Now if we’re talking burst physical mitigation, you’re partially correct. What I mean is it depends on when you can burst and if you can land it in between the time protection/aura isn’t active.

Zefrost.3425:

The nerf to might did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except hurt builds that were already suboptimal trying to use might.

Eliminate doom sigil from the game entirely while you’re at it. And all of the other passive/on crit garbage that you introduced like torment sigil.

Thnx.

More things that are actually balanced like sigil of paralyzation or sigil of force, sigil of accuracy, condition duration extending sigils, etc. would be nice.

I understand your desire to wrap sigil of doom and celestial amulet in a padded foam coating in order to make it safer to fight against, but eventually everyone needs to learn that the world has sharp edges and that tact must be used when handling anything with sharp edges.