Guild Wars 2

Based on what reasoning their skills should be toned down?
Already made a post in this thread explaining how jack of all trades and master interact to each other, under no circumstances a jack of all trades who focus on the master weaknesses should lose.
If the jack of all trades would lose to master both in direct way ( by going into the realm of the master ex: direct dmg jack vs direct dmg master) and indirect way( inability to capitalize on the master weaknesses)…there would be no point.
what so ever to have such concept in game

Actually the concept of jack of all trades would have not been born at all, if there would be no clear advantages/disadvantages of being one.

To ask to nerf jack of all trades to a level where they can’t win ever against a master…….It’s ludicrous to say the least

Arken.3725:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Arken.3725:

The issue (once again), isn’t the amulet but the professions themselves. Give a look-over the traits/skills utilized by Ele’s/Engie’s. Celestial amulet just accentuates the issue, it isn’t the cause.

Generally the idea behind the word celestial is more about how it plays, rather than the amulet itself. If I was to rephrase it, celestial bruiser builds? Aka, builds that are pretty good at everything, but not a specialist like bunkers, bursters or supporters.

Thing is, these builds allow them to excel as bunkers/bursters(not so much supporters). I prefer the old Berserker meta back at launch. Reason being was that due to this game’s combat-nature, being rewarded for proper avoidance/positioning was crucial. It seems like now a days these bruisers are too tough while also putting out similar burst(through might).

Edit: Proper risk/reward has gone down significantly in my opinion.

How are you not seeing the big picture? The big picture of today’s Celestial meta is emphasis on 2v2/3v3 and proper rotation rather than mid push and continuing that sustained/rezzed fights for minutes. Basically what you are encouraging is fest of hardrezzing/skill rezzing that only ends after the initial cooldown. Sure rotations did exist but not as important as this one, and now we truly get to see the importance of communication due to celestial meta.
Now instead of just “warrior used his banner, Ranger used his spirit”, we have to call out the numbers, professions, kitten the most dangerous target to the team as target, peeling and healing for teammates and many more in terms of basic communication. And also a mistake of losing 2v2 and 3v3 is costly because it actually takes time to regroup and coordinate a push while rotating around to ease the balance from remaining node rather than retreating to home and holding the point til the reinforcement arrives.
Try to watch a year old video of MYM vs TCG. And now watch TCG vs The Abjured in WTS. Now watch ORNG vs TCG and see how much changed, and how fun it is to see battles going all over the map that clearly rewards for winning small scaled team battles. If you watched carefully, now those “celestial” aren’t really bunkers, but more of team support/mobile classes moving actively through maps in order to provide such support instead of holding down a node.
Sure those celestial classes do function as bunkers, but they are much better in a sense that they have to remove themselves from nodes more often than previous bunker guardians which allows for smart maneuvering of maintaining the cap while peeling based on timing of node caps, being able to fully dispatched or at least removed from fights for certain seconds instead of making sure that they have to kill that bunker in order to secure the node then only to have the same thing repeated.
Now we see more class diversity, and who would have expected meditation guardian to be included in the meta to replace thieves when we all knew that thieves were the top of PVP meta since the beginning of time. Celestial actually brought positive change and more innovation in terms of creativity and diversity of the build overall than previous meta.

xDudisx.5914:

Supreme.3164:

@xDudisx

Celestial was made for jack of all trades professions, it was not made for profession capable of mastering certain aspects. At this point I’d rather remove the jack of all trades concept from GW2 and allow each profession to be master of something

A long time ago they posted the goal that they try to reach for each class when balancing. They said engi and eles are intended to be jack of all trades.

IMO the only problem right now is that celestial d/d ele does too much dmg and rifle engi has too much cc+condi+block.

I think that their sustain is ok. The problem is not celestial amulet. The last update where they nerfed might stacks, sigil of battle, drake’s breath and greneade kit was good.

What needs a nerf:
sigil of doom,
sigil of inteligence,
runes of hoelbrak (-20% condi might duration source of might+ power based)
runes of nightmare
air+fire combo
d/d skills
tool kit
grenade kit

No if all those gets nerfed then there truly won’t be any damage going into pvp match at all. instead of killing people to capture a node it would be racing to a node and holding on to that one single node while preventing capts from other team because of no damage. Might nerf already toned down direct damage for celestial classes, and now the issue is how to make this game more fun instead of nerf everything because I don’t like it.
Now people complained about celestial’s damage, so battle sigil and might nerf took place to tone down the damage. Now people aren’t complaining as much anymore, but the issue remains of how to deal with celestial’s sustain. And to be honest poison is the most effective way to tone down the amount of healing by 33%, and if you nerf that doom sigil, then people will heal more and more and the battle will never end. We complain about how direct damage isn’t doing much anymore. Well then buff condi damage by buffing air and fire sigil base damage in order to create more unforgiving situation.
This way with a lucky and/or coordinated burst celestial classes/bunker classes will go down easily while dps classes themselves are exposed to more high risk/high reward situation when they fight against one another. Nerfing isn’t the ultimate solution .Its more of excuse to run away/ignore the problems if there is.

xDudisx.5914:

Supreme.3164:

@xDudisx

Celestial was made for jack of all trades professions, it was not made for profession capable of mastering certain aspects. At this point I’d rather remove the jack of all trades concept from GW2 and allow each profession to be master of something

A long time ago they posted the goal that they try to reach for each class when balancing. They said engi and eles are intended to be jack of all trades.

IMO the only problem right now is that celestial d/d ele does too much dmg and rifle engi has too much cc+condi+block.

I think that their sustain is ok. The problem is not celestial amulet. The last update where they nerfed might stacks, sigil of battle, drake’s breath and greneade kit was good.

What needs a nerf:
sigil of doom,
sigil of inteligence,
runes of hoelbrak (-20% condi might duration source of might+ power based)
runes of nightmare
air+fire combo
d/d skills
tool kit
grenade kit

Your list is clear, what is not clear is your reasoning behind it.
You basically want to nerf ele/engy ability to fight other professions, when is in their design concept to have clear advantages over profession that can master dmg/support and control.

This advantage is their ability to exploit other profession weaknesses with ease, where other profession win easily in a direct race against ele/engy; an ele can’t burst as efficiently as a Mesmer or thief or med guardian, can’t Control like a hammer warrior
and can’t support like a guardian, what ele does is a fraction of everything and he does it well, how much well is up to discussion.

As long as you want to min/max the stats between jack of all trades and master , it’s fine, but when you want to remove the clear advantages of one over the other…then we have a problem

All these problems come from conquest mode imho. There are just so many pvp modes – as other MMOs showed us in the past decade. I used to be a WoW addict so these are the first examples that come into my mind:

- capture the flag (warsong gulch)
- even conquest mode was different as you had to completely clear the node to cap it (like tranq/stillness/etc. in temple)

These would open up a whole new horizon as many other roles would be needed than just bruisers and roamers. A lot more builds would become viable. New tactics, team comps, builds, etc. It’d be so easy to spice up spvp. They could even ignore this constant balancing issue as the increased demand for alternative roles would allow a lot more creativity even with broken mechanics.

So imho, conquest is the root of all bad in this game.

TheFamster.7806:

Now we see more class diversity, and who would have expected meditation guardian to be included in the meta to replace thieves when we all knew that thieves were the top of PVP meta since the beginning of time.

I’m all for leaving celestial stats as currently they are, but don’t say med guards are meta due they aren’t. NA teams (at least the most prominent one: Abjured) doesn’t run guardians at all, and I myself run a med guard just due bunker guard is plain boring, not due meds are competitive. Still, I’m happy about bunker guardian being kicked out the PvP beta -and soon outside WvW, I hope-. Too many years without relevant changes, imo.

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

You forgot boons (might stacking, perma vigor, high protection uptime).

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

I have some facts right here.

Ele: These are just SOME of the examples.

-At least 65% up time on vigor/regen/protection/swiftness/might
-Access to significant amounts of CC (Frozen burst, chill aura, shocking aura, updraft, magnetic grasp, earth quake)
-Highest AoE burn up time in the game with little-to-no investment involved(drake’s breath)

Engineer: Again, just SOME of the examples

-Highest block up time of any profession
-Instant-ranged KB that also cures movement-impeding effects.
-Little-to-no visual representation when spamming grenades at feet.
-Uncounterable application of burning upon crit.
-Excellent mobility due to 100% up time of swiftness.

These are just some examples from the two apex predators on top of them being inherently tanky(due to celestial or rabid for Condition Engineer).

Edit: I hope we never focus on a meta to where every profession can utilize celestial efficiently, this leads to a very boring meta where setting up burst will be insignificant and long, drawn-out fights will reign supreme. We need to go back to the Zerker meta.

Arken.3725:

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

I have some facts right here.

Ele: These are just SOME of the examples.

-At least 65% up time on vigor/regen/protection/swiftness/might
-Access to significant amounts of CC (Frozen burst, chill aura, shocking aura, updraft, magnetic grasp, earth quake)
-Highest AoE burn up time in the game with little-to-no investment involved(drake’s breath)

Engineer: Again, just SOME of the examples

-Highest block up time of any profession
-Instant-ranged KB that also cures movement-impeding effects.
-Little-to-no visual representation when spamming grenades at feet.
-Uncounterable application of burning upon crit.
-Excellent mobility due to 100% up time of swiftness.

These are just some examples from the two apex predators on top of them being inherently tanky(due to celestial or rabid for Condition Engineer).

Edit: I hope we never focus on a meta to where every profession can utilize celestial efficiently, this leads to a very boring meta where setting up burst will be insignificant and long, drawn-out fights will reign supreme. We need to go back to the Zerker meta.

If I started listing all specific things all classes can do when specced correctly, we’d be here all day. Elementalists has been nerfed into the ground since BETA because people can’t learn to play… You might as well list mesmer there because they have too many “get out of jail” cards /s…

If classes with high base HP can get amulets that compliment perfectly their stats for a build, why should classes which are in the middle or less get the shaft for their builds?

Whether the devs intended, the facts are that every class has a weakness and you can’t just pick the golden class and build to beat them all. All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

I have some facts right here.

Ele: These are just SOME of the examples.

-At least 65% up time on vigor/regen/protection/swiftness/might
-Access to significant amounts of CC (Frozen burst, chill aura, shocking aura, updraft, magnetic grasp, earth quake)
-Highest AoE burn up time in the game with little-to-no investment involved(drake’s breath)

Engineer: Again, just SOME of the examples

-Highest block up time of any profession
-Instant-ranged KB that also cures movement-impeding effects.
-Little-to-no visual representation when spamming grenades at feet.
-Uncounterable application of burning upon crit.
-Excellent mobility due to 100% up time of swiftness.

These are just some examples from the two apex predators on top of them being inherently tanky(due to celestial or rabid for Condition Engineer).

Edit: I hope we never focus on a meta to where every profession can utilize celestial efficiently, this leads to a very boring meta where setting up burst will be insignificant and long, drawn-out fights will reign supreme. We need to go back to the Zerker meta.

If I started listing all specific things all classes can do when specced correctly, we’d be here all day. Elementalists has been nerfed into the ground since BETA because people can’t learn to play… You might as well list mesmer there because they have too many “get out of jail” cards /s…

If classes with high base HP can get amulets that compliment perfectly their stats for a build, why should classes which are in the middle or less get the shaft for their builds?

Whether the devs intended, the facts are that every class has a weakness and you can’t just pick the golden class and build to beat them all. All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

Arken – You have to say WHY those things are OP and argue why the devs simply did not intend elementalist/engineer to be that way

The way Elementalists specifically invest their traits it seems intended to have high boon uptime cleanses and heals – 6 in water/arcana

- Elementalist has definitely not be nerfed into the ground and your bias is showing you should relax yourself

Narkodx.1472:

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

I have some facts right here.

Ele: These are just SOME of the examples.

-At least 65% up time on vigor/regen/protection/swiftness/might
-Access to significant amounts of CC (Frozen burst, chill aura, shocking aura, updraft, magnetic grasp, earth quake)
-Highest AoE burn up time in the game with little-to-no investment involved(drake’s breath)

Engineer: Again, just SOME of the examples

-Highest block up time of any profession
-Instant-ranged KB that also cures movement-impeding effects.
-Little-to-no visual representation when spamming grenades at feet.
-Uncounterable application of burning upon crit.
-Excellent mobility due to 100% up time of swiftness.

These are just some examples from the two apex predators on top of them being inherently tanky(due to celestial or rabid for Condition Engineer).

Edit: I hope we never focus on a meta to where every profession can utilize celestial efficiently, this leads to a very boring meta where setting up burst will be insignificant and long, drawn-out fights will reign supreme. We need to go back to the Zerker meta.

If I started listing all specific things all classes can do when specced correctly, we’d be here all day. Elementalists has been nerfed into the ground since BETA because people can’t learn to play… You might as well list mesmer there because they have too many “get out of jail” cards /s…

If classes with high base HP can get amulets that compliment perfectly their stats for a build, why should classes which are in the middle or less get the shaft for their builds?

Whether the devs intended, the facts are that every class has a weakness and you can’t just pick the golden class and build to beat them all. All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

Arken – You have to say WHY those things are OP and argue why the devs simply did not intend elementalist/engineer to be that way

The way Elementalists specifically invest their traits it seems intended to have high boon uptime cleanses and heals – 6 in water/arcana

- Elementalist has definitely not be nerfed into the ground and your bias is showing you should relax yourself

I thought I did, guess not. Well then here’s my reasoning and it goes for ALL professions. There needs to be proper risk vs. reward. Being a bruiser or “master of all trades” doesn’t scale well with proper risk vs investment. When you only give up a tiny bit of (burst) damage for an abundance of sustain/mobility/cc with a tiny bit of support, there’s an issue.

Edit: Here’s a trivia question for everyone. This might sound biased because I main Guardian. Which spec on which profession had proper balance in terms of sustain/dps/support/cc? Here’s a hint, it had decent sustain and excellent support while everything else was sub par.

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

For me, I think this would be what I’d change on engineer:

1. Overcharged Shot – Increase cast time to 1/2 with a warm up animation.
   1. Dodging this purposely isn’t impossible, but it takes a lot of knowledge to pull it off. You have to know how the enemy plays, the tricks they pull, the tells they give…even with all of that it can be tricky to get right. A 1/2 cast time allows you enough time to actively dodge it if you anticipated the shot, but not enough time if you didn’t see it coming.
2. Slick Shoes – Decrease puddle duration from 3s to 2s.
   1. The lockdown on this is just a bit too long. My fights against engineers with this basically boils down to going ham if I have Elixir S up or retreating if I don’t. With a shorter puddle duration, the effect of using my elixir S will be not as deadly. It also requires that the engineer is doing an effective circle around you, not just running over your face because you’ll be able to get away.
3. Gear Shield – Increase recharge from 20s to 25s.
   1. Whenever I fight engineers, it feels like gear shield is ALWAYS off cooldown. I don’t take power wrench, and 20s is more than a generous recharge time.

These changes stem from my fights against engis where I have to avoid two extremely deadly CCs (Overcharged Shot and Slick Shoes) which are instant activation. Granted they’re melee range, but engineer has plenty of tools to get them off. They also chain amazingly well together. Also I think a slightly longer recharge on gear shield will get rid of the feeling that gear shield is seemingly ALWAYS off recharge. Engi vs Engi, overcharged shot and gear shield are almost the same recharge (16 and 15)

What do you think of those changes?

Except Elementalist’s are not in a decent spot. Just stated above as to why they’re over-the-top. Drake’s breath helped but you still have access to the most AoE application of burning in the game. There’s an issue with that.

Arken.3725:

Except Elementalist’s are not in a decent spot. Just stated above as to why they’re over-the-top. Drake’s breath helped but you still have access to the most AoE application of burning in the game. There’s an issue with that.

And Thieves have access to the most AoE application of stealth in the game. Omg nerf pls.

guardians have the most aoe application of auto attacks in the game!!!!

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

Arken.3725:

Narkodx.1472:

Swim.6830:

Arken.3725:

Narkodx.1472:

LOL

That’s why these discussions are useless

Some say Celestial OP nerf the amulet
Some say Engi/Ele OP nerf traits/weapons/skills
Some say Sigils and Runes are OP nerf those

Who actually has factual evidence with numbers of what is actually OP? ANET

I have some facts right here.

Ele: These are just SOME of the examples.

-At least 65% up time on vigor/regen/protection/swiftness/might
-Access to significant amounts of CC (Frozen burst, chill aura, shocking aura, updraft, magnetic grasp, earth quake)
-Highest AoE burn up time in the game with little-to-no investment involved(drake’s breath)

Engineer: Again, just SOME of the examples

-Highest block up time of any profession
-Instant-ranged KB that also cures movement-impeding effects.
-Little-to-no visual representation when spamming grenades at feet.
-Uncounterable application of burning upon crit.
-Excellent mobility due to 100% up time of swiftness.

These are just some examples from the two apex predators on top of them being inherently tanky(due to celestial or rabid for Condition Engineer).

Edit: I hope we never focus on a meta to where every profession can utilize celestial efficiently, this leads to a very boring meta where setting up burst will be insignificant and long, drawn-out fights will reign supreme. We need to go back to the Zerker meta.

If I started listing all specific things all classes can do when specced correctly, we’d be here all day. Elementalists has been nerfed into the ground since BETA because people can’t learn to play… You might as well list mesmer there because they have too many “get out of jail” cards /s…

If classes with high base HP can get amulets that compliment perfectly their stats for a build, why should classes which are in the middle or less get the shaft for their builds?

Whether the devs intended, the facts are that every class has a weakness and you can’t just pick the golden class and build to beat them all. All builds and classes have a compromise (thieves have easier time vs some classes, warriors vs others and so on). I am not saying what you are if you disregard this fact – I am nice like that.

Arken – You have to say WHY those things are OP and argue why the devs simply did not intend elementalist/engineer to be that way

The way Elementalists specifically invest their traits it seems intended to have high boon uptime cleanses and heals – 6 in water/arcana

- Elementalist has definitely not be nerfed into the ground and your bias is showing you should relax yourself

I thought I did, guess not. Well then here’s my reasoning and it goes for ALL professions. There needs to be proper risk vs. reward. Being a bruiser or “master of all trades” doesn’t scale well with proper risk vs investment. When you only give up a tiny bit of (burst) damage for an abundance of sustain/mobility/cc with a tiny bit of support, there’s an issue.

Edit: Here’s a trivia question for everyone. This might sound biased because I main Guardian. Which spec on which profession had proper balance in terms of sustain/dps/support/cc? Here’s a hint, it had decent sustain and excellent support while everything else was sub par.

The risk is being forced in a role while having the lower base stats among all profession, no weapon swap and give up utilities to fulfil the role of jack of all trades.

But hey you say having the lowest stats and dmg coefficient is not enough of a reason and I say :" ok fair enough".

So let’s reduce/nerf ele sustain, attrition dmg and access to protection, CC….then…

-We increase ele base HP from 10K to 15/18K
-We reduce the CD from excessive skills with an unreasonable CD currently(35s CD+)
-We increase the dmg coefficient of auto-attacks on weapons like sceptre

Then you will say :" ele has still too many skills"..then

-We remove the attunenement mechanic and add weapon swap for ele
-We re-design all ele skills to take in consideration the lack of attunement

There! The game is “balanced” now no?!

I have absolutely no problem with increasing armor and/or health to compensate as well as certain skills that have too long of a cd. I’m more than happy to compensate where it’s needed.

Arken.3725:

I have absolutely no problem with increasing armor and/or health to compensate as well as certain skills that have too long of a cd. I’m more than happy to compensate where it’s needed.

Now we are talking!
Reduce sustain, CC whatever, nerf celestial….don’t care, but in return we get finally increased HP, reduced CD on skills and increased dmg coefficient on certain skills

I’m not unreasonable. I’m just trying to suggest changes to make this game more fun/active and rewarding or proper skill

Arken.3725:

I’m not unreasonable.

Arken.3725:

you still have access to the most AoE application of burning in the game. There’s an issue with that.

Yes, no class should have the most of anything, every class should be exactly the same. Totally reasonable.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Arken.3725:

I’m not unreasonable.

Arken.3725:

you still have access to the most AoE application of burning in the game. There’s an issue with that.

Yes, no class should have the most of anything, every class should be exactly the same. Totally reasonable.

What I said wasn’t unreasonable but a fact. Not every profession should be the same but rather applications of certain conditions need to be ironed out.

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

All skills you’ve mentioned have ample counterplay and lightning whip it’s the only decent auto-attack on eles and will remain so. On some points in particular….

1) Dmg happen at the end and there is a clear animation, plenty of time to dodge.. an obvious L2P issue here, I can dodge steal, C&D, overshoot and most attacks that have far less tell
2) And by how much you would increase this CD?
3)The stun happens on attack, again a L2P issue, and daze in this game last 2s at least where stun last 1s every 2s and the aura last 4s, an increased CD would bring more daze to ele and that would be beneficial even more than current stun

The design of the elementalist is that they are weak in the defense department but make up for it in the ability to be good at pretty much whatever they want. If they gained medium health or armor, every single skill would have to be redesigned for elementalist. I’m not even sure if that’s possible.

xDudisx.5914:

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

I agree with you on magnetic grasp, but I think the other skills are pretty easily avoided. Burning speed is very easy to dodge and walking through ring of fire is your choice. Shocking Aura is strong, but I think it’s a needed defense for eles vs thieves (which pretty readily destroy them). Overall, the damage from elementalist is coming from Drake’s Breath, which got a pretty fair nerf. Fire Grab and Lightning Whip are pretty weak in comparison.

The sustain on ele is a bit strong, but I mean…They did invest ALL of their traits into it. I think they deserve it.

Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?

edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.

Arken.3725:

Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?

edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.

It’s to compensate for the innate weak defense that we have great access to protection and condi removal, to nerf this would bring into question why that weak defense even exist in the first place, Again as I’ve said you can nerf access to protection and condi removal but then I want that base weak defense removed.

It has already explained why eles have access to CC/mobility/burst and more at the same time; before celestial meta ( where without a doubt you still see bunker guardians), the guardian has been part of every meta as main bunker, because it’s clear that ele has not a superb support/sustain like a bunker guardian ( the latter gain greater sustain through heavy access to Blocks, blind and healing skill with a higher base number)

Under no circumstance an ele can bunker a point like a specifically built guardian, you don’t see even Abjured doing that, they simply rotate with perfection.

I never stated Bunker Guardian had superb sustain, in fact it actually didn’t. It revolved heavily on your teammates rotating. It’s self-sustain was decent at best. Elementalists easily outshined them in that department and not support.

Edit: Is this a joke? Elementalist’s completely out-shine Guardians in terms ofsustain, even on a point.

Arken.3725:

I never stated Bunker Guardian had superb sustain, in fact it actually didn’t. It revolved heavily on your teammates rotating. It’s self-sustain was decent at best. Elementalists easily outshined them in that department and not support.

Edit: Is this a joke? Elementalist’s completely out-shine Guardians in terms ofsustain, even on a point.

Guardian has been and still is the best point holder in the game against multiple foes if you don’t agree with that, we can organize a video of you playing first as ele and then as bunker guardian vs me and my friend(very good thief), we’ll see in which instance you can hold the point longer before any help can potentially come

Guardian has a plethora of blocks skill, regen and protection on bunker build, it is a far better bunker than ele, the latter can dish some pretty good dmg while being a decent bunker( not superb like guardian), as a fact the Abjured win match by rotations not by trying to hold point, unless you want to show me a video of @Phantaram holding a point against 2+ opponents like a guardian vs decent opponents

edit:

I’d like to make my final point, I’m not against any tweak to celestial amulet or some ele skills, what I’m against is the idea of removing the very reason why somebody should be a jack of all trades over a master, there are people asking for the jack of all trades to be yes weaker in everything but also unable to beat a master in anything, at which point there would 0 reason to keep such concept in game.

The versatility and the potential to capitalize on a master weakness are what make a jack of all trades intriguing and useful to play, without those ideals, a jack of all trades would have no reason to exist

Supreme.3164:

xDudisx.5914:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.

1. For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
2. For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?

1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.

All skills you’ve mentioned have ample counterplay and lightning whip it’s the only decent auto-attack on eles and will remain so. On some points in particular….

1) Dmg happen at the end and there is a clear animation, plenty of time to dodge.. an obvious L2P issue here, I can dodge steal, C&D, overshoot and most attacks that have far less tell
2) And by how much you would increase this CD?
3)The stun happens on attack, again a L2P issue, and daze in this game last 2s at least where stun last 1s every 2s and the aura last 4s, an increased CD would bring more daze to ele and that would be beneficial even more than current stun

1)For a hibrid it does too much direct dmg on that skill
2) 15s is too low. Focus for example has skills with a minimun cooldown of 20s
3)Tell the enemy to stop atacking for 4s is the most stupid “counter play” I have seen in the forums. Lets go ahead and say that any skill is balance because you can always run away.
6) For a hibrid jack of all trades ele is doing way too much direct dmg on lightning whip. It also has a good range and is one of the easiest “melee” #1 skills to land on the game.

The argument that “you can dodge” is not valid. If a skill did 150k dmg applied 25 stacks of vul, gave 25stacks of might and had a 0.75s I could say the same and say it is balanced because you could dodge. Following that logic any skill that is not insta cast is balanced. Looking at the counless changes they to dozens of skills in the past we see that it is not true.

Not all the time people will have endurance to dodge everything, it is not a 1v1 all the time. Not every build has a free dodge from weapons skills like d/d. Also not every build has perma vigor like d/d ele.

Please, show me video’s, i’d love to see them. And that’s completely false, a Guardian falls a part incredibly fast when it’s a 2/3v1. And where is this plethora of Blocks,regen and protection? Assuming you’re using scepter/shield with staff, you have no blocks aside from heal and popping your courage. Protection/Regen? Aside from an incredibly long cd that is VoC/Resolve, all you have is Hold the Line. Again, I don’t see a *plethora" of anything.

Edit: And again, me playing both the Elementalist and Guardian to compare makes absolutely no sense when I barely even play the former.

Arken.3725:

Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?

edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.

My issue with what is going on with celestial/ele/engi is this.

Elementalists are traited HEAVILY into boon duration uptime and condition removal (that’s great good for them!).

• They take the might stacking runes (hoelbrak), now they have great condi clear on top of reduced condi duration (well now most condi classes can’t face them).

• Then they have the HIGHEST absolute highest protection uptime in this game, which is easily reapplied over, and over, and over. This eliminates any direct damage class that can’t boon strip, and greatly hinders the direct damage classes that can boon strip because of how quickly protection is reapplied through, auras, armor of earth, earth attunement ETC.

• They have very high fury/might uptime between attunement swapping and fire field blasting this gives them the same offensive stats as a player using a berserkers amulet and they still are very hard to kill because of their investment into condi removal and boon duration.

• They never have to worry about managing their heals. Yes the signet of restoration was garbage in PvP before, but now to reset a fight all an ele has to do is RTL (or Fiery rush+whirlwind away) then spam lightning AA for 5 seconds and then they can come back in, if you capped the point in the time they were gone it’s no skin off their nose because they have enough CC to at least get the point decapped again.

So the problem with at least D/D Cele Ele right now isn’t that they are a jack of all trades, they are masters of all trades.

- Highest uptime on most damage condition in the game? Check
- Highest condi clear for themselves and teammates in the game? Check (oh bye bye bunker guards)
- Highest uptime on protection in the game? Check (oh not too mention frost aura reduces damage by even more)
- Ability to maintain all offensive and defensive boons on themselves allowing ridiculous damage output for little to no risk. Check (say good bye burst classes.)

So please stop saying they are the jack of all trades masters of none when they are indeed the masters of all trades. I would go into engi, but that is for another post.

jportell.2197:

Arken.3725:

Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?

edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.

My issue with what is going on with celestial/ele/engi is this.

Elementalists are traited HEAVILY into boon duration uptime and condition removal (that’s great good for them!).

• They take the might stacking runes (hoelbrak), now they have great condi clear on top of reduced condi duration (well now most condi classes can’t face them).

• Then they have the HIGHEST absolute highest protection uptime in this game, which is easily reapplied over, and over, and over. This eliminates any direct damage class that can’t boon strip, and greatly hinders the direct damage classes that can boon strip because of how quickly protection is reapplied through, auras, armor of earth, earth attunement ETC.

• They have very high fury/might uptime between attunement swapping and fire field blasting this gives them the same offensive stats as a player using a berserkers amulet and they still are very hard to kill because of their investment into condi removal and boon duration.

• They never have to worry about managing their heals. Yes the signet of restoration was garbage in PvP before, but now to reset a fight all an ele has to do is RTL (or Fiery rush+whirlwind away) then spam lightning AA for 5 seconds and then they can come back in, if you capped the point in the time they were gone it’s no skin off their nose because they have enough CC to at least get the point decapped again.

So the problem with at least D/D Cele Ele right now isn’t that they are a jack of all trades, they are masters of all trades.

- Highest uptime on most damage condition in the game? Check
- Highest condi clear for themselves and teammates in the game? Check (oh bye bye bunker guards)
- Highest uptime on protection in the game? Check (oh not too mention frost aura reduces damage by even more)
- Ability to maintain all offensive and defensive boons on themselves allowing ridiculous damage output for little to no risk. Check (say good bye burst classes.)

So please stop saying they are the jack of all trades masters of none when they are indeed the masters of all trades. I would go into engi, but that is for another post.

The defensive part is ok because they are traiting everything +utilities into defense.
The problem is one the fact that they can still do very high direct and condi dmg.

A rune like hoelbrak gives too much defensive ability (-20%condi) for a power based rune that already gives might and might duration. No wonder hoelbrak is in the top 3 most expensive runes on the trading post.

1)For a hibrid it does too much direct dmg on that skill
2) 15s is too low. Focus for example has skills with a minimun cooldown of 20s
3)Tell the enemy to stop atacking for 4s is the most stupid “counter play” I have seen in the forums. Lets go ahead and say that any skill is balance because you can always run away.
6) For a hibrid jack of all trades ele is doing way too much direct dmg on lightning whip. It also has a good range and is one of the easiest “melee” #1 skills to land on the game.

The argument that “you can dodge” is not valid. If a skill did 150k dmg applied 25 stacks of vul, gave 25stacks of might and had a 0.75s I could say the same and say it is balanced because you could dodge. Following that logic any skill that is not insta cast is balanced. Looking at the counless changes they to dozens of skills in the past we see that it is not true.

Not all the time people will have endurance to dodge everything, it is not a 1v1 all the time. Not every build has a free dodge from weapons skills like d/d. Also not every build has perma vigor like d/d ele.

1) Too much direct dmg? We should take in consideration your build, and ele stats at the time of the hit, but going by number alone, burning speed can deal as much direct dmg as a warrior axe-autottack full chain
2) Focus flame wall is aoe ground target and deal no dmg, focus is a defensive set up where d/d is a pure pressure set up with escape skills on very high CD….what argument is even that?
3)Being unable to stop attacking for 4s is one of the biggest L2P issues in the game, unless you’re telling me that it’s ok to blow all your CC on somebody that has stability up, it’s ok to blow all your condition on a warrior that uses berserker’s stance, it’s ok to range attack a an engineer that he’s reflecting….etc etc etc etc…the list goes on but the huge L2P issue remains
6)Compared to what? Currently lightning whip deal far less dmg than a thief/warrior/Mesmer auto-attack, thief and Mesmer are zerker ofc….again the numbers are completely ok, there is no argument again

Nobody can dodge everything, and it’s no the game problem if you can’t keep tab of what you’re facing and you don’t need vigor to dodge what needs to be dodged

xDudisx.5914:

jportell.2197:

Arken.3725:

Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?

edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.

My issue with what is going on with celestial/ele/engi is this.

Elementalists are traited HEAVILY into boon duration uptime and condition removal (that’s great good for them!).

• They take the might stacking runes (hoelbrak), now they have great condi clear on top of reduced condi duration (well now most condi classes can’t face them).

• Then they have the HIGHEST absolute highest protection uptime in this game, which is easily reapplied over, and over, and over. This eliminates any direct damage class that can’t boon strip, and greatly hinders the direct damage classes that can boon strip because of how quickly protection is reapplied through, auras, armor of earth, earth attunement ETC.

• They have very high fury/might uptime between attunement swapping and fire field blasting this gives them the same offensive stats as a player using a berserkers amulet and they still are very hard to kill because of their investment into condi removal and boon duration.

• They never have to worry about managing their heals. Yes the signet of restoration was garbage in PvP before, but now to reset a fight all an ele has to do is RTL (or Fiery rush+whirlwind away) then spam lightning AA for 5 seconds and then they can come back in, if you capped the point in the time they were gone it’s no skin off their nose because they have enough CC to at least get the point decapped again.

So the problem with at least D/D Cele Ele right now isn’t that they are a jack of all trades, they are masters of all trades.

- Highest uptime on most damage condition in the game? Check
- Highest condi clear for themselves and teammates in the game? Check (oh bye bye bunker guards)
- Highest uptime on protection in the game? Check (oh not too mention frost aura reduces damage by even more)
- Ability to maintain all offensive and defensive boons on themselves allowing ridiculous damage output for little to no risk. Check (say good bye burst classes.)

So please stop saying they are the jack of all trades masters of none when they are indeed the masters of all trades. I would go into engi, but that is for another post.

The defensive part is ok because they are traiting everything +utilities into defense.
The problem is one the fact that they can still do very high direct and condi dmg.

A rune like hoelbrak gives too much defensive ability (-20%condi) for a power based rune that already gives might and might duration. No wonder hoelbrak is in the top 3 most expensive runes on the trading post.

The next big question is, are there any build besides these cele builds that use hoelbrak. If you touch hoelbrak will it change builds that don’t need to be nerfed. Right now I think the issue isn’t necessarily that, the issue again is Anet OVERBUFFED certain classes, and is afraid to bring them back in line.

jportell.2197:

The next big question is, are there any build besides these cele builds that use hoelbrak.

Soldier builds such as hambow and eviscerate, some mesmers also use it.

Arken.3725:

Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.

Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.

Forget to say…
If everybody these days is running a tanky spec is specifically because no other zerker spec stand up to Mesmer and thief or even Med guardian, reason why you don’t see fresh air eles/power ranger , 100nades engy or axe warrior at high levels; Mesmer and thieves would simply blow you out of existence in no time seen as they can engage/disengage at will, that’s their mastery advantage

The Gates Assassin.9827:

TheFamster.7806:

Have you watched the old matches before the celestial meta? Do you know how boring it was? It was about bunker guardians, spirit rangers and hambow warriors and everyone fighting for one node while each kept their home nodes, and with constant insta rez as well as super tankiness that made the game look really boring. Basically there were only 5 professions (guardian, warrior, ranger, mesmer and thief) and extreme zerg control.
I’d watch fight spread evenly across the node, where the rotation becomes extremely important as well as individual skills to 1v1/2v2 constantly while calculating the respawn timers instead of winning a one combat that lasts 1/3 of the match length which ultimately decides which team wins the game.

This is exactly what I came to this thread to ask about.

If we look at old metas, we have:

1. Bunker (2-3 Bunkers, 2-3 Burst)
2. Warrior (Guardian Bunker, 2-3 warriors, thief and other)
3. Decap (Decap engi, 2 bunkers, 2 DPS)
4. Berserker (Looooong time ago. Lots of DPS)

Now we have the celestial meta.

1. Do you guys prefer this meta to past metas?
2. If you could rebalance the game so ALL of these comps were viable, would you? Do you want to face meta viable Decap/bunker/berserker teams?
3. One thing lost on the celestial meta is rotating the right players to the right locations. While it is definitely still there, it’s not as important as the days were necros were chasing down engineers and guardians had to be in the team fights. Do you like this about the celestial meta? Do you prefer the rotational requirements of other metas or the mechanical requirements of the celestial meta?
4. Generally celestial comps take 2-4 celestial players and the rest are sort of open depending on how defensive/offensive you want your team to be. Do you want celestial builds for all classes so that the role that elementalist/engineer/warrior fill right now could be filled by any class?

Anet devs needs to go through trait lines, amulets, runes, and sigils all at once.

Bunker meta was boring. However, the fact bunk guardians are out of the meta is bad. Was wvwing so didn’t taste the zerk meta. Ideally we wouldn’t have AI builds that are as potent as they can be in solo queue.

Supreme.3164:

1)For a hibrid it does too much direct dmg on that skill
2) 15s is too low. Focus for example has skills with a minimun cooldown of 20s
3)Tell the enemy to stop atacking for 4s is the most stupid “counter play” I have seen in the forums. Lets go ahead and say that any skill is balance because you can always run away.
6) For a hibrid jack of all trades ele is doing way too much direct dmg on lightning whip. It also has a good range and is one of the easiest “melee” #1 skills to land on the game.

The argument that “you can dodge” is not valid. If a skill did 150k dmg applied 25 stacks of vul, gave 25stacks of might and had a 0.75s I could say the same and say it is balanced because you could dodge. Following that logic any skill that is not insta cast is balanced. Looking at the counless changes they to dozens of skills in the past we see that it is not true.

Not all the time people will have endurance to dodge everything, it is not a 1v1 all the time. Not every build has a free dodge from weapons skills like d/d. Also not every build has perma vigor like d/d ele.

1) Too much direct dmg? We should take in consideration your build, and ele stats at the time of the hit, but going by number alone, burning speed can deal as much direct dmg as a warrior axe-autottack full chain
2) Focus flame wall is aoe ground target and deal no dmg, focus is a defensive set up where d/d is a pure pressure set up with escape skills on very high CD….what argument is even that?
3)Being unable to stop attacking for 4s is one of the biggest L2P issues in the game, unless you’re telling me that it’s ok to blow all your CC on somebody that has stability up, it’s ok to blow all your condition on a warrior that uses berserker’s stance, it’s ok to range attack a an engineer that he’s reflecting….etc etc etc etc…the list goes on but the huge L2P issue remains
6)Compared to what? Currently lightning whip deal far less dmg than a thief/warrior/Mesmer auto-attack, thief and Mesmer are zerker ofc….again the numbers are completely ok, there is no argument again

Nobody can dodge everything, and it’s no the game problem if you can’t keep tab of what you’re facing and you don’t need vigor to dodge what needs to be dodged

1) Considering the build you say? Alltraits are into defensive traitlines, celestial is a hibrid not supposed to hit that hard. Axe is the best dps autoatk for warrior. Almost every autoatk has a lower dps than that. Also the range for axe is 130 and LW is 300.

2) It is a firefield on a very low cd and lasts 6s. Scape skill on very high cooldown? Lightning flash 32, armor of earth 60s, cleansing fire 32s.

3)4s on a 25s cd is equal to 16% of the time that you wont be able to atk. That in the class with the highest protection uptime, perma regen and one of the top healing per second in the game is too much. Stab normally has higher cooldown and only prevent cc not dmg. Reflect only works against projectiles. The aura works against anyone that is not using stab.

6) thief autoatck is one of the strongest in the game but dagger only hits up to 2 targets and is 130 range. LW is 300 range. Warrior axe is also 130 range and is a chain skill. You want to compare LW with a zerker thief and mesmer and say it is ok? No mesmer and thief are doing more dmg because they are zerker not because LW is weak.

celestial needs to be nerfed by about 50 points in each stat. tired of cele shoutbows and d/d eles. garbage no skill play. d/d eles shouldn’t be doing so much damage while facerolling through their attunements and cooldowns. good ones are impossible to fight on point. nerfing cele would open up a LOT of builds right now.

mistsim.2748:

celestial needs to be nerfed by about 50 points in each stat. tired of cele shoutbows and d/d eles. garbage no skill play. d/d eles shouldn’t be doing so much damage while facerolling through their attunements and cooldowns. good ones are impossible to fight on point. nerfing cele would open up a LOT of builds right now.

You need to kill off their sustain with poison and chill to slow them down…and ofc an eye to dodge their main skills, for tips , an ele facerolling though attunement cannot beat anything but another player facerolling through his build

Supreme.3164:

mistsim.2748:

celestial needs to be nerfed by about 50 points in each stat. tired of cele shoutbows and d/d eles. garbage no skill play. d/d eles shouldn’t be doing so much damage while facerolling through their attunements and cooldowns. good ones are impossible to fight on point. nerfing cele would open up a LOT of builds right now.

You need to kill off their sustain with poison and chill to slow them down…and ofc an eye to dodge their main skills, for tips , an ele facerolling though attunement cannot beat anything but another player facerolling through his build

I appreciate your thoughts, but in all honesty, I didn’t ask for tips to counterplay cele. ive been ranked high enough and ive played long enough to understand the meta quite well actually, and I take the appropriate steps to do my best against such builds. however, it isn’t fun and the meta isn’t fun. simple as that. everyone knows it.

I would also like to add that cele needs to be nerfed responsibly, so that it doesn’t affect the interesting builds that aren’t OP with that amulet, like cele rangers, guards, necros, and even engies. this means a small nerf to cele stats, and very small nerfs to warrior and ele sustain.

It’s not that I’m having a problem with nerfing celestial amulet, some sustain or skill. I’m having problems with removing entirely the capability of ele to be effective in PvP at all. There is no viable ranged option both for warriors and eles, there is only a mele option and with this in mind it’s obviously necessary for such builds to have higher sustain compared to say : a Mesmer or ranger that can burst reliable from 1200+ range

I mean it’s clear that mele needs higher sustain, otherwise how else they’d fight?
Now how much sustain is necessary, this is up to discussion

How much effective is celestial d/d ele really depends at this point, it seems to be too “high” against certain builds at mele range, what should be reduced effectively should be cele d/d to face other mele specs, but what should not change is the efficiency of this mele build against other build/professions that can be effective at huge range , and the ability to sustain through team fights, because again an ele d/d can’t simply switch to range and pew pew on mid when things go wrong

1) Considering the build you say? Alltraits are into defensive traitlines, celestial is a hibrid not supposed to hit that hard. Axe is the best dps autoatk for warrior. Almost every autoatk has a lower dps than that. Also the range for axe is 130 and LW is 300.

2) It is a firefield on a very low cd and lasts 6s. Scape skill on very high cooldown? Lightning flash 32, armor of earth 60s, cleansing fire 32s.

3)4s on a 25s cd is equal to 16% of the time that you wont be able to atk. That in the class with the highest protection uptime, perma regen and one of the top healing per second in the game is too much. Stab normally has higher cooldown and only prevent cc not dmg. Reflect only works against projectiles. The aura works against anyone that is not using stab.

6) thief autoatck is one of the strongest in the game but dagger only hits up to 2 targets and is 130 range. LW is 300 range. Warrior axe is also 130 range and is a chain skill. You want to compare LW with a zerker thief and mesmer and say it is ok? No mesmer and thief are doing more dmg because they are zerker not because LW is weak.

1) So now you want to nerf the amulet, you want to nerf dmg on d/d….or simply you want to nerf everything( which is what I believe); the skills by you mentioned deal the highest dmg on d/d regardless of the amulet. I could go soldier or valkrye and you would still be here asking for nerfs on d/d…in all truth you want to nerf any threatening aspect of the D/D spec

2) Ele for starter had always had the best fire fields in the game, others have fire fields too ( ranger, warrior, guardian); and it’s your choice to walk into them, same argument can be made for any aoe ground attack you walk into, like: wells, chaos field, combustive shot and….yeah even turret engy deployement

-Lightning flash is 40s CD, earth of armor is 75s CD and Cleansing fire is 40s Cd, out of all of them only armor of earth is a stunbreaker, no ele takes cantrip mastery I believe as that would reduce your condi clear potential. Mesmer have blink on 30s/stunbreaker for example, thieves have shortbow and there is more.

3) Shocking aura is 1s stun every 2s on mele attacker, again your choice to attack at mele range, all profession save engy ( who has range by default) can switch to range attack and maintain pressure, nobody force to keep a mele offensive. To say shocking aura works against everything is a wicked lie

6) Already said this in point 1, what you’re really asking for is to remove any threat potential from ele and this only for personal reasons it seems

Supreme.3164:

1) Considering the build you say? Alltraits are into defensive traitlines, celestial is a hibrid not supposed to hit that hard. Axe is the best dps autoatk for warrior. Almost every autoatk has a lower dps than that. Also the range for axe is 130 and LW is 300.

2) It is a firefield on a very low cd and lasts 6s. Scape skill on very high cooldown? Lightning flash 32, armor of earth 60s, cleansing fire 32s.

3)4s on a 25s cd is equal to 16% of the time that you wont be able to atk. That in the class with the highest protection uptime, perma regen and one of the top healing per second in the game is too much. Stab normally has higher cooldown and only prevent cc not dmg. Reflect only works against projectiles. The aura works against anyone that is not using stab.

6) thief autoatck is one of the strongest in the game but dagger only hits up to 2 targets and is 130 range. LW is 300 range. Warrior axe is also 130 range and is a chain skill. You want to compare LW with a zerker thief and mesmer and say it is ok? No mesmer and thief are doing more dmg because they are zerker not because LW is weak.

1) So now you want to nerf the amulet, you want to nerf dmg on d/d….or simply you want to nerf everything( which is what I believe); the skills by you mentioned deal the highest dmg on d/d regardless of the amulet. I could go soldier or valkrye and you would still be here asking for nerfs on d/d…in all truth you want to nerf any threatening aspect of the D/D spec

2) Ele for starter had always had the best fire fields in the game, others have fire fields too ( ranger, warrior, guardian); and it’s your choice to walk into them, same argument can be made for any aoe ground attack you walk into, like: wells, chaos field, combustive shot and….yeah even turret engy deployement

-Lightning flash is 40s CD, earth of armor is 75s CD and Cleansing fire is 40s Cd, out of all of them only armor of earth is a stunbreaker, no ele takes cantrip mastery I believe as that would reduce your condi clear potential. Mesmer have blink on 30s/stunbreaker for example, thieves have shortbow and there is more.

3) Shocking aura is 1s stun every 2s on mele attacker, again your choice to attack at mele range, all profession save engy ( who has range by default) can switch to range attack and maintain pressure, nobody force to keep a mele offensive. To say shocking aura works against everything is a wicked lie

6) Already said this in point 1, what you’re really asking for is to remove any threat potential from ele and this only for personal reasons it seems

It is possible to nerf LW to hurt more cele than other builds. Just reduce the base dmg and increase the way it scales with power. Where did I say celestial amulet needs a nerf? What needs a nerf is d/d skills.

Most cases you are almost melee dmg because the node is very small, that aura is too strong for such a small coodown.

Skills with ample counterplay need no nerfs, I can play any profession you want and will dodge burning speed no problem any time you want( ofc don’t expect me to dodge a burning speed if I’m against 3-4 people or get perma immobilized by a med guardian+ entangle ranger)

Lower the base dmg of LW and make it scale with power? what difference would it make?A celestial ele not only has high base power but also crit chance and crit dmg, other amulets would increase that base power even more, with your suggestion a soldier/zerker/valk ele will end up doing even more dmg on LW

Being able to outrange an ele while he uses shocking aura or similar skills is arguably not difficult at all, being a ranger 2nd main with survival poison master shortbow and being a1st main ele, I find rather easy to predict both if faced as opponents, got a warrior also with which I can win against cele eles as well, and recently started a necro, will use wells builds with time.

Regardless do you really expect the devs to nerf dmg on auto-attacks and main skills( and increase their CD also)?How an ele should win at all? By staring at you?
Sorry to disappoint you….but that will never happen, no matter how many nerf threads you write

I’ve been discussing this build with a few people and wanted to know if people thought this was enough:

1. Ring of Earth – Animation to show that the projectile blocking is in effect.
2. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Otherwise, this build feels pretty balanced to me now. The damage isn’t scary. It’s pretty good pressure, but it’s something I think you earn. The support is strong, but that’s kind of the ele niche in this build. They invested heavily into water so they got a lot of support from it.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I’ve been discussing this build with a few people and wanted to know if people thought this was enough:

1. Ring of Earth – Animation to show that the projectile blocking is in effect.
2. Updraft – 1/2s cast time so you can’t Lightning Flash into Updraft to force a stun breaker.

Otherwise, this build feels pretty balanced to me now. The damage isn’t scary. It’s pretty good pressure, but it’s something I think you earn. The support is strong, but that’s kind of the ele niche in this build. They invested heavily into water so they got a lot of support from it.

Those changes would be more than enough at high levels, which you know it’s clearly not the case on the forums.

A good player facing an ele that use LF and updraft in combo, knows that the ele has just used two high CD skills and the combo can be easily negated:

-You can blind the ele attempting burning speed
-You can block, waiting ofc to be updrafted and negate the upcoming burning speed

Many way to negate the combo without using a single stun breaker, all in all those suggestions are not clearly enough for the type of audience you get on the forums

Supreme.3164:

Skills with ample counterplay need no nerfs, I can play any profession you want and will dodge burning speed no problem any time you want( ofc don’t expect me to dodge a burning speed if I’m against 3-4 people or get perma immobilized by a med guardian+ entangle ranger)

Lower the base dmg of LW and make it scale with power? what difference would it make?A celestial ele not only has high base power but also crit chance and crit dmg, other amulets would increase that base power even more, with your suggestion a soldier/zerker/valk ele will end up doing even more dmg on LW

Being able to outrange an ele while he uses shocking aura or similar skills is arguably not difficult at all, being a ranger 2nd main with survival poison master shortbow and being a1st main ele, I find rather easy to predict both if faced as opponents, got a warrior also with which I can win against cele eles as well, and recently started a necro, will use wells builds with time.

Regardless do you really expect the devs to nerf dmg on auto-attacks and main skills( and increase their CD also)?How an ele should win at all? By staring at you?
Sorry to disappoint you….but that will never happen, no matter how many nerf threads you write

1)Celestial has less power than soldier and zerker. Both can might stack. It is possible to tweak base dmg and scaled with power numbers so zerker/soldier keep same dmg but lower power celestial does less dmg

2)Not everyone has a ranged option.

3) You talk like if d/d was weak when it is acutally one of the close to god mode 1v1 builds in the game. Last patch they nerfed drake’s breath, sigil of battle and might for a reason.