Guild Wars 2

Destroy all your clones and phantasms, damaging nearby foes. This attack cannot critically hit enemies.
Damage: 244
Damage (2x): 378
Damage (3x): 492
Range: 1,200

But without heal, because already little cd.

/discuss

Antiboon prety cool meta.
Go go go Antioneshot and antipet meta.

Idk if this is a serious suggestion.

Mug is a major adept trait meaning it should have some impact on a fight without being a core aspect of a thief build. That’s what Anet did with the nerf.

Mind Wrack however is a profession mechanic which means it is supposed to be a core aspect of a mesmer build. That’s why the damage is so high.

Yes, the damage is high but that’s how it is supposed to be for a profession mechanic.

Waiting for the antipet meta which is currently out of control.

Ridiculous, decreasing mind wrack dmg by such amount without any other buff, would make shatter spec unplayable. Shatter dmg is quite easy to avoid especialy when you understand mesmer mechanic, your proposition cause only that nobody use shatter at all and all mesmers would run phantasm builds. Why shatter your phantasm/clones when dmg is not rewarding. Do you ever played mesmer?

No, just no.

Phent.9350:

Ridiculous, decreasing mind wrack dmg by such amount without any other buff, would make shatter spec unplayable. Shatter dmg is quite easy to avoid especialy when you understand mesmer mechanic, your proposition cause only that nobody use shatter at all and all mesmers would run phantasm builds. Why shatter your phantasm/clones when dmg is not rewarding. Do you ever played mesmer?

Actually shatter is one of the harder to dodge abilities. If you dodge too early the clones will just keep on following you. The dodge window itself is kinda small, just about half a second. And it can and will probably get staggered over about 0.5s-1s. So even if you dodge one clones shatter, you will still get hit by the other ones, because they weren’t in their respective shatter animation yet.
Shatter damage is fine.

One problem lies within how often mesmers can shatter even when not using utilities for that purpose. Just get deceptive evasion, and have alot of shatter food available all the time.
And the next problem is, how extremly well all traits are placed. You can get all sorts of damage traits, while getting defensive traits in form of extremly strong minor traits, cooldown reduction on the longest invul ingame (4s), with an extremly low cooldown (in that case 42s) and boon removal like no other class. You can on top of that use two of the strongest weapons ingame, which is mainhand sword and staff, both having unbelievable strong defensive abilities, on stupidly low cooldown. One of those is also quite potent in terms of offensive damage.

There are alot of ways to make them less of an all in one package and more of a specialised shatterer. Like getting deceptive evasion as second grandmaster in illusion. You either take, more shatters more often, or stronger shatters with illusionary persona.
Shattered Concentration becoming a grandmaster trait and getting something like:
Deal additional damage if a boon got removed.

Just make clones explode in a cloud of flowers…without dmg or everything else.

Probably ppl would still complain even after that…flowers op

Lol roll into the easy to see and obvious telegraphed zombie clones making a B line for you, or in a crowd everything else around you, and it does 0 damage or maybe only 1 clone hits you. Lol posts like this make me laugh nothing to discuss.

Avoiding shatters requires far more active player response than it does to create them. I mean, an aoe damage skill that hits for 2-3k per hit AND chases it’s target? c’mon…

if there was one thing I would change about Mesmers it would be to require them to actually aim their skills. No more auto-homing, auto-facing, or fire and forget lolAI attacks from 1200 range for 4-6k damage.

There isn’t a single skill shot on the class and the game is basically doing 75% of the work for them. All you have to do is watch your positioning and then hit the same skill combos over and over. It’s more like spectating than playing. /yawn

While my arcane wave does 4x less damage than wrack I am signing this. Tired of having a ranged caster class out DPS the melee caster and be completely over the top compared to staff Eles…

Oh here we go again. I am not happy with my class, NERF everyone else!

Varonth.5830:

Phent.9350:

Ridiculous, decreasing mind wrack dmg by such amount without any other buff, would make shatter spec unplayable. Shatter dmg is quite easy to avoid especialy when you understand mesmer mechanic, your proposition cause only that nobody use shatter at all and all mesmers would run phantasm builds. Why shatter your phantasm/clones when dmg is not rewarding. Do you ever played mesmer?

Actually shatter is one of the harder to dodge abilities. If you dodge too early the clones will just keep on following you. The dodge window itself is kinda small, just about half a second. And it can and will probably get staggered over about 0.5s-1s. So even if you dodge one clones shatter, you will still get hit by the other ones, because they weren’t in their respective shatter animation yet.
Shatter damage is fine.

One problem lies within how often mesmers can shatter even when not using utilities for that purpose. Just get deceptive evasion, and have alot of shatter food available all the time.
And the next problem is, how extremly well all traits are placed. You can get all sorts of damage traits, while getting defensive traits in form of extremly strong minor traits, cooldown reduction on the longest invul ingame (4s), with an extremly low cooldown (in that case 42s) and boon removal like no other class. You can on top of that use two of the strongest weapons ingame, which is mainhand sword and staff, both having unbelievable strong defensive abilities, on stupidly low cooldown. One of those is also quite potent in terms of offensive damage.

There are alot of ways to make them less of an all in one package and more of a specialised shatterer. Like getting deceptive evasion as second grandmaster in illusion. You either take, more shatters more often, or stronger shatters with illusionary persona.
Shattered Concentration becoming a grandmaster trait and getting something like:
Deal additional damage if a boon got removed.

In small scale combat its easy to see when all clones stop auto attack and rush to you, bigger fights are even worse, clones just die before they reach target. What is more clones can be cripeled, chilled. Target can also run with swiftnes and wait when energy would be full again and dodge(or just run away). Its not hard to dodge because you are prepared, for what will happen. Only reliable way to shatter is to do it from close distance(remember that shatter spec are usualy with berserker stats and can be downed pretty easly) and when you want to do shatter combo you must use ilusonary leap(which is bugged) to immob enemy, dodge first clone from IL and you avoided shatter.

not sure if serious

hackks.3687:

Avoiding shatters requires far more active player response than it does to create them. I mean, an aoe damage skill that hits for 2-3k per hit AND chases it’s target? c’mon…

I know. It’s like if there was a class that had an auto-attack that followed you even in stealth.

DaShi.1368:

hackks.3687:

Avoiding shatters requires far more active player response than it does to create them. I mean, an aoe damage skill that hits for 2-3k per hit AND chases it’s target? c’mon…

I know. It’s like if there was a class that had an auto-attack that followed you even in stealth.

I see what you did there… Is Mesmer burst crazy? Yes. But so is the stupid larcenous strike that Anet just gave to thieves… spammable boon strip and condition removal… come one tell me that isn’t pretty sweet…. eles can usually out heal all damage from shatters and built right so can a thief :P and Mesmer best burst comes in melee as well.. If a Mesmer is standing far off trying to nuke a point with clones they are doing it wrong.. The clones usually die before they get there and the Mesmer is missing out on good damage from IP. Another reason mesmers would play melee is the few confusion mesmers left around… yes I know its weird to see a confusion mes but for them to be effective they have to activate several of their skills in melee.
Also to the ele griping about arcane wave your arcane wave is a utility skill not your profession mechanic… This players suggestion is like saying all eles attunement swaps now have a gcd of 20 seconds… also do you know how many utility skills a Mesmer has that actually deal damage? 0 our two phantasms that are utility skills are defensive and all of our glamours are just utility not offensive… Please do not compare apples to oranges. You won’t get far.

You can nerf shatter when the mesmer’s other skills actually hit for something and he gets actual aoe.

Don’t talk to me about phantasms they die the moment they are summoned in a team fight — a frostgorge alpine wolf can 2 shot a phantom with hp signet and extra phantasm hp trait; that’s how bad phantasm hp is, same for clones.

I’ve played mesmer since beta weekend 1, but I see no reason to play mesmer anymore if that will happen. At this moment shatter is the only viable build for tournament play. I’ve played a phantasm build for quite some time in tournament, untill I just got completely negated by top teams, because the phantasms die before they get their attack off (even with the trait and signet)

I dont like the way the mesmer class plays period. I’m not even saying this should be nerfed, because it can be countered, but I just think the pet spam and stealth combination is not fun for your average player to fight period. And games should be about fun.

Marduh.4603:

Destroy all your clones and phantasms, damaging nearby foes. This attack cannot critically hit enemies.
Damage: 244
Damage (2x): 378
Damage (3x): 492
Range: 1,200

But without heal, because already little cd.

/discuss

Antiboon prety cool meta.
Go go go Antioneshot and antipet meta.

What your asking is to remove the Mesmer completely off the game like what happen to the Rangers. Anet already broke the spirit build during beta, they are not going that far to break another build after that lesson.

FuzzyRamen.4902:

Marduh.4603:

Destroy all your clones and phantasms, damaging nearby foes. This attack cannot critically hit enemies.
Damage: 244
Damage (2x): 378
Damage (3x): 492
Range: 1,200

But without heal, because already little cd.

/discuss

Antiboon prety cool meta.
Go go go Antioneshot and antipet meta.

What your asking is to remove the Mesmer completely off the game like what happen to the Rangers. Anet already broke the spirit build during beta, they are not going that far to break another build after that lesson.

Like hb, dazelock, pw, 100nades, bs and so on?

Archaon.6245:

FuzzyRamen.4902:

Marduh.4603:

Destroy all your clones and phantasms, damaging nearby foes. This attack cannot critically hit enemies.
Damage: 244
Damage (2x): 378
Damage (3x): 492
Range: 1,200

But without heal, because already little cd.

/discuss

Antiboon prety cool meta.
Go go go Antioneshot and antipet meta.

What your asking is to remove the Mesmer completely off the game like what happen to the Rangers. Anet already broke the spirit build during beta, they are not going that far to break another build after that lesson.

Like hb, dazelock, pw, 100nades, bs and so on?

I see wut u did thar

Jackums.3496:

Dodge into the clones. All damage negated. L2P.

Just dodge!
‘But im immobilized’
Ok then umm dodge the immobilize!
‘But im stunned by pistol’
Then use a stunbreak OMG
‘Sigh.. shall we compare stunbreak cooldowns to your stun and immobilize then?’
No, just find the real mesmer, l2p.

Why dont you mesmers dodge for once. Off a high platform preferably.

Let me think about this. Pre-nerf, Mug would hit for an insane amount of damage and was completely unavoidable unless you were very lucky. As it stands, shatters are also very easy to avoid if you simply dodge-roll — a novel concept, I know. Unlike Mug, it doesn’t take pure luck to avoid 90-100% of the burst damage. Nerfing mind wrack will literally force everyone into phantasm builds.

Mesmers’ abilities can be avoided if you know how to dodge and what to look for. Mug was basically a free 7-8k crit on zerker builds.

wookie.8934:

Let me think about this. Pre-nerf, Mug would hit for an insane amount of damage and was completely unavoidable unless you were very lucky. As it stands, shatters are also very easy to avoid if you simply dodge-roll — a novel concept, I know. Unlike Mug, it doesn’t take pure luck to avoid 90-100% of the burst damage. Nerfing mind wrack will literally force everyone into phantasm builds.

Mesmers’ abilities can be avoided if you know how to dodge and what to look for. Mug was basically a free 7-8k crit on zerker builds.

Please stop the hyperbole – Mug was not critting for 7-8k in PvP.

Maybe not 7k (which mesmer EASILY does now on shatter) but mug did 4k at the least. One of the hardest hitting abilities for an Ele is Firegrab, which misses easily and target has to be burning, and even on crit specced glass cannon, you might have gotten lower than 4k damage and NOWHERE near 7k. And I am talking semi-viable build(like current mesmer shatter) and not some kitten one trip pony.

Shatter is dodgeable of you practice. Instead, nerf phantasm mesmers. Theif damage is so loose it is impossible to dodge and the damage is much too high. Mindwrack is the most balenced methode of dealing damage.

Zelulose.8695:

Shatter is dodgeable of you practice. Instead, nerf phantasm mesmers. Theif damage is so loose it is impossible to dodge and the damage is much too high. Mindwrack is the most balenced methode of dealing damage.

It would be balanced if instead of smart selfdestructing projectiles that chase you, the clones acted on the last known position when pressing the shatter button (like dragon tooth, comet etc.)

7k damage on smart projectiles is not balanced in a game where your abilities and actions can be disabled for over 3 seconds by that same class.

Swim.6830:

Zelulose.8695:

Shatter is dodgeable of you practice. Instead, nerf phantasm mesmers. Theif damage is so loose it is impossible to dodge and the damage is much too high. Mindwrack is the most balenced methode of dealing damage.

It would be balanced if instead of smart selfdestructing projectiles that chase you, the clones acted on the last known position when pressing the shatter button (like dragon tooth, comet etc.)

7k damage on smart projectiles is not balanced in a game where your abilities and actions can be disabled for over 3 seconds by that same class.

Nothing about shatter clones screams smart in my opinion. They’re pretty well televised when they’re about to shatter and the running animation couldn’t be more obvious. That, and the fact that they can’t shatter while running makes it pretty easy to avoid.

wookie.8934:

Swim.6830:

Zelulose.8695:

Shatter is dodgeable of you practice. Instead, nerf phantasm mesmers. Theif damage is so loose it is impossible to dodge and the damage is much too high. Mindwrack is the most balenced methode of dealing damage.

It would be balanced if instead of smart selfdestructing projectiles that chase you, the clones acted on the last known position when pressing the shatter button (like dragon tooth, comet etc.)

7k damage on smart projectiles is not balanced in a game where your abilities and actions can be disabled for over 3 seconds by that same class.

Nothing about shatter clones screams smart in my opinion. They’re pretty well televised when they’re about to shatter and the running animation couldn’t be more obvious. That, and the fact that they can’t shatter while running makes it pretty easy to avoid.

By smart I mean chasing. It’s essentially a fire and forget. And I always find myself taking damage before the shatter animation, so imo a 1/4 second animation for a fire and forget, 7k dmg on a less than 15s timer is not long enough, when most other classes have around a 40 second cooldown for similar bursts from singular abilities.

Nerf shatter when:
Phantasmal berserker works right.
Confusion is re-added to some of our attacks.
Confusion base duration is upped by 50% (mesmer confusion)
Confusion damage is upped by 25%
Phantasms are finally fixed so that a small pebble doesn’t “Obstruct” every other summon
Clone’s damage do 75% of the mesmers AA….

Right now for a raw damage spec… Mesmers have shatter, and phantasm and only one of those belong in a team fight (take a wild guess at which). Thieves are still viable after the Mug nerf it just takes some creativity not to mention you have a spammable boon strip and condi cleanse… If specced right you never have to worry about conditions. Go tell that to mesmers.

Swim.6830:

It would be balanced if instead of smart selfdestructing projectiles that chase you, the clones acted on the last known position when pressing the shatter button (like dragon tooth, comet etc.)

So… We should spend time generating our clones and phantasms. Then we should detonate them and all people would have to do to negate the main source of damage from any shatter mesmer would be to take a step back?
I fail to see how that possibly could be balanced.

Swim.6830:

Here is one for after patch>

Tier S:
Ranger

Tier A:
Ranger Pet +
Engineer +
Guardian +
Mesmer =
Thief =
Elementalist -
Necromancer -

Tier B:
Warrior

Tier C:
n/a

So eventhough mesmer (according to you) is in the same tier as most other classes, we clearly should be nerfed?
I fail to understand your logic.

Zerker mesmers do wreak havoc with their shatters, even tanky mesmers can wreck you if they spam it right, might wanna seriously think about putting a shared cd on all shatter abilities so they can’t just spam them and instawin. Put something like a 1 or 2 second cd on it so there’s atleast some interval before the next 3 clones shatter on you and then probably 2 more right after that for the 3rd shatter in a row that the mesmer standing on top of you spammin blurred frenzy is gonna send your way. They are counterable, but only really by the more tanky players who have just enough cc and damage to lock those mesmers down after blurred frenzy and burst them down. I’ve done it on my warrior before with hammer but even on my theif I have a lot of trouble with mesmers who spam their shatters for burst. The shared 2 sec cd would alleviate the current burst potetential of mesmers without ruining the class IMO. I’m sure you will all disagree with me though, so please feel free.

Marduh.4603:

Destroy all your clones and phantasms, damaging nearby foes. This attack cannot critically hit enemies.
Damage: 244
Damage (2x): 378
Damage (3x): 492
Range: 1,200

But without heal, because already little cd.

/discuss

Antiboon prety cool meta.
Go go go Antioneshot and antipet meta.

Nothing to discuss. Mesmers are in need of a serious buff. They can’t kill 3 people anymore.

Come on, Anet! GOD!

Parktou.4263:

Zerker mesmers do wreak havoc with their shatters, even tanky mesmers can wreck you if they spam it right, might wanna seriously think about putting a shared cd on all shatter abilities so they can’t just spam them and instawin. Put something like a 1 or 2 second cd on it so there’s atleast some interval before the next 3 clones shatter on you and then probably 2 more right after that for the 3rd shatter in a row that the mesmer standing on top of you spammin blurred frenzy is gonna send your way. They are counterable, but only really by the more tanky players who have just enough cc and damage to lock those mesmers down after blurred frenzy and burst them down. I’ve done it on my warrior before with hammer but even on my theif I have a lot of trouble with mesmers who spam their shatters for burst. The shared 2 sec cd would alleviate the current burst potetential of mesmers without ruining the class IMO. I’m sure you will all disagree with me though, so please feel free.

Mesmers have already had a GCD put on their shatters… Happened in January. And mesmers’ can’t spam blurred frenzy the only two classes that can truly “spam” as in attack consistently in quick succession are thieves and eles. Thieves because of the massive regen in initiative they can take. And eles because they have 20 different weapon skills. Engi’s can’t spam because they still take usually just one kit. And thief is one of the last classes that should have trouble with mesmers. one thing that hurts mesmers the most is blinds… If you blind a Mesmer consistently you keep them from summoning phantasms… Simple.

jportell.2197:

Parktou.4263:

Zerker mesmers do wreak havoc with their shatters, even tanky mesmers can wreck you if they spam it right, might wanna seriously think about putting a shared cd on all shatter abilities so they can’t just spam them and instawin. Put something like a 1 or 2 second cd on it so there’s atleast some interval before the next 3 clones shatter on you and then probably 2 more right after that for the 3rd shatter in a row that the mesmer standing on top of you spammin blurred frenzy is gonna send your way. They are counterable, but only really by the more tanky players who have just enough cc and damage to lock those mesmers down after blurred frenzy and burst them down. I’ve done it on my warrior before with hammer but even on my theif I have a lot of trouble with mesmers who spam their shatters for burst. The shared 2 sec cd would alleviate the current burst potetential of mesmers without ruining the class IMO. I’m sure you will all disagree with me though, so please feel free.

Mesmers have already had a GCD put on their shatters… Happened in January. And mesmers’ can’t spam blurred frenzy the only two classes that can truly “spam” as in attack consistently in quick succession are thieves and eles. Thieves because of the massive regen in initiative they can take. And eles because they have 20 different weapon skills. Engi’s can’t spam because they still take usually just one kit. And thief is one of the last classes that should have trouble with mesmers. one thing that hurts mesmers the most is blinds… If you blind a Mesmer consistently you keep them from summoning phantasms… Simple.

Nah engys take two kits, toolkit and nades usually or bombs depending on if they wanna combo when bunkering to get stealth etc.

And no..blurred frenzy is on a 10sec cooldown. 2 seconds of invulnerability to everything GW2 can throw at you? Immune to cc? Check! Immune to damage?Check! Dish out DPS while doing it?Check! Gotta love that weak kitten ability..maybe that is why they are gonna nerf it..hmm..

What else do mesmers have?

Oh yea..worst elites in the game: Moa morph..a cc you can never break out of. It basically disables all your class abilities..hmm interesting..
Group quickness..say whaaaat?
Group stealth?Yep

Tons of get out of jail cards even on weapons

A weapon ability that can grant mesmers swiftness, slows enemies and Can be activated further to pull enemies thus ccing/interrupting them? Check!

High dps from shatters

Stealthing though not a thief and not activated off a combo..

Summon a phantasm that takes half of the damage directed towards you? yep

Ability to bypass downed abilities through distortion on command and guaranteeing a stomp

Downed ability that completely bypasses initial attempt to stomp while doing high dps while downed

Ability to avoid damage by using distortion on command

Can rip off boons off of a GROUP of people instantly

Basically they have the best abilities from every class except they have superior versions. Example: boon removal: not a single target like necros but a group. And the problem is they don’t have one..two..three of the best abilities in the game..they have tons of them.

Mesmers are easy mode and a nice way to know if you are a skilled player or a one that is being carried by your class is to roll a warrior and see how you fare against a player who can utilize the mesmer/thief broken class mechanics.

Also, I don’t think anyone sympathizes with mesmers who say they can’t use all those abilities at the same time. Boo hoo I’m sure..but you get to pick the best ones while other classes don’t have access to your 2nd best ones.

Please don’t insult the intelligence of players by saying mesmers are fine, are not OP and other people need to work around their OP mechanics. Everyone who plays this game knows they are OP with the exception of people who play mesmers who are either in denial or lying.

If phantasms are fixed then mesmers are fixed and their damage wont seem nearly as high and their burst will be just right. The issue is that mesmers phantasms auto target you no matter where you go and stack bleed and high damage. They also have many glitches.

Swim.6830:

Maybe not 7k (which mesmer EASILY does now on shatter) but mug did 4k at the least. One of the hardest hitting abilities for an Ele is Firegrab, which misses easily and target has to be burning, and even on crit specced glass cannon, you might have gotten lower than 4k damage and NOWHERE near 7k. And I am talking semi-viable build(like current mesmer shatter) and not some kitten one trip pony.

I believe you meant 4k at most. 4k at least implies that it would be easy to get mug to crit for 4k, and it would be easy/possible to get it to crit even higher – looking at the HS’s that hit you, and the armor value you supplied, it’s easy to discern a few things.
- The thief hitting you was min/max GC – 25 or 30 in DA, 30 in Crit strikes running executioner, zerkers ammy/jewel with power runes.
- He almost definitely had stacks of bloodlust, probably 20-25, Or was running Assassins Sig (or both).
- You were below 50% when that mug hit (adding 20% to the damage via executioner). You also took an additional 10% damage from Exposed weakness (since his steal poisoned you), and its possible he was over 6 init, adding another 10% damage.

A 4k crit on a base 45s CD boosted by that many conditional requirements isn’t exactly “the norm”.

Some math to prove my point. Go to Gw2skills and build a GC thief as I described – slot Assassins sig to simulate some bloodlust stacks. You’ll end up with 3463 power. Since you’ve got 2400 armor, I took the listed HS damage at under 50% for the 2200 armor and 2600 armor targets and split the difference – 1461. now add 30% – 1899.3 (lets call it 1900). Now multiply that by 108% and you get 3952 – The last HS that hit you before the 6k one (when you dropped below 25%) hit you for 4,482 – I’m not too up to date on the DPS variances, but this points to the fact that there might be a few extra factors these calculations aren’t taking into account (like 10% for over 6 init, 10% for having over 90% health from scholars, etc).

So, I’m pretty comfortable saying that a 4.4k Mug crit can only be achieved by fulfilling a long list of pre-requisites – running a total GC build by power stacking like crazy, running executioner, stacking bloodlust/running assassins sig, and fulfilling 1 or more of the 25 point minor “10% more damage if” traits.

4k is not a “typical” mug crit.

Swim.6830:

Maybe not 7k (which mesmer EASILY does now on shatter) but mug did 4k at the least. One of the hardest hitting abilities for an Ele is Firegrab, which misses easily and target has to be burning, and even on crit specced glass cannon, you might have gotten lower than 4k damage and NOWHERE near 7k. And I am talking semi-viable build(like current mesmer shatter) and not some kitten one trip pony.

Off topic, Firegrab does 10k+ damage if properly speced.

It does 10k ONLY with 100%+ Crit Damage + abilities increasing damage to low health targets + Full zerker gear and traits + Is against a burning target. With a balanced Ele build it will do 2K to a burning target. It also has crap targeting . It’s also melee on a class with very little health or armour and is on a 45s CD.

Engi’s take two kits? When did this happen? Well then if that is the case then the engi is now easy pickings because they now have one less condi cleanse or stun break… Most engi’s I see with the exception of a few run HGH and grenade kit. So that is 2 elixirs and one kit. And phantasms are prolly one of the most frustrating mechanics we have. Summoning them is a pain because the whiners got it blinded or invuln now there is also a delay from when the summon to when they hit. Mesmers have had plenty of nerfs since release. Way more than was necessary. Also thieves now get a 2k heal sort of a kitten for tat thing. So it wasn’t a total nerf where as in the last patch Mesmers got nothing but nerfs. No compensation what so ever. Our confusion build got nerfed in wvw and pvp and one of our traits is now blah… Seriously mesmers need no new nerfs. Especially not mindwrack because mindwrack at the base. Does nothing. Have you ever seen the base damage from a condition Mesmer mindwrack? Or a phantasm Mesmer? Or a bunker Mesmer? The damage is laughable

Mindwrack only does good damage with 3 traits. mental torment, dazzling, and precise wrack. 3 separate traits dependent on getting a good burst. Mug only depended on mug. Also why are so many thieves hell bent on taking mug anyways. They have some of the best defensive traits in the game.

Would be better to compare backstab to mindwrack than mug..

Wolfgang Michael.8217:

Swim.6830:

Maybe not 7k (which mesmer EASILY does now on shatter) but mug did 4k at the least. One of the hardest hitting abilities for an Ele is Firegrab, which misses easily and target has to be burning, and even on crit specced glass cannon, you might have gotten lower than 4k damage and NOWHERE near 7k. And I am talking semi-viable build(like current mesmer shatter) and not some kitten one trip pony.

Off topic, Firegrab does 10k+ damage if properly speced.

You having fun in cof p1?

jportell.2197:

Mug only depended on mug.

Except 3 posts prior to yours that I quoted, I pointed out exactly the kittening opposite. Mug only does “insane” damage if you’re running extremely high power and satisfy the conditionals on a number of DPS oriented traits.

If you can’t make your point without ommitting facts, hyperbole, or just outright lying, it’s probably not worth making.

Also, as a side note, mug is a trait.

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

Mug only depended on mug.

Except 3 posts prior to yours that I quoted, I pointed out exactly the kittening opposite. Mug only does “insane” damage if you’re running extremely high power and satisfy the conditionals on a number of DPS oriented traits.

If you can’t make your point without ommitting facts, hyperbole, or just outright lying, it’s probably not worth making.

Also, as a side note, mug is a trait.

You omitted the fact its a minor 5 point trait.

GankSinatra.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

Mug only depended on mug.

Except 3 posts prior to yours that I quoted, I pointed out exactly the kittening opposite. Mug only does “insane” damage if you’re running extremely high power and satisfy the conditionals on a number of DPS oriented traits.

If you can’t make your point without ommitting facts, hyperbole, or just outright lying, it’s probably not worth making.

Also, as a side note, mug is a trait.

You omitted the fact its a minor 5 point trait.

10 point major, since I actually know where abilities I profess to have knowledge about are located.
A)There’s no need to point out where mug is – If you don’t know where mug is on the traitline, what makes you qualified to come to the boards and kitten about it?
B)2 of the 3 traits Jportel claimed where necessary for Mind wrack to hit hard are…I bet you’re going to feel silly when I finish this sentence…10 points in.

Dude, you’re a thief basher all over the forums, you should be better at this.

evilapprentice.6379:

GankSinatra.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

Mug only depended on mug.

Except 3 posts prior to yours that I quoted, I pointed out exactly the kittening opposite. Mug only does “insane” damage if you’re running extremely high power and satisfy the conditionals on a number of DPS oriented traits.

If you can’t make your point without ommitting facts, hyperbole, or just outright lying, it’s probably not worth making.

Also, as a side note, mug is a trait.

You omitted the fact its a minor 5 point trait.

10 point major, since I actually know where abilities I profess to have knowledge about are located.
A)There’s no need to point out where mug is – If you don’t know where mug is on the traitline, what makes you qualified to come to the boards and kitten about it?
B)2 of the 3 traits Jportel claimed where necessary for Mind wrack to hit hard are…I bet you’re going to feel silly when I finish this sentence…10 points in.

Dude, you’re a thief basher all over the forums, you should be better at this.

But also compare backstab to mindwrack… that is the big difference. Thieves can still pull of gnarly burst without mug thanks to backstab. Also thieves can pull off their burst every 4 seconds mesmers need at least 10 seconds.

jportell.2197:

evilapprentice.6379:

GankSinatra.2653:

evilapprentice.6379:

jportell.2197:

Mug only depended on mug.

Except 3 posts prior to yours that I quoted, I pointed out exactly the kittening opposite. Mug only does “insane” damage if you’re running extremely high power and satisfy the conditionals on a number of DPS oriented traits.

If you can’t make your point without ommitting facts, hyperbole, or just outright lying, it’s probably not worth making.

Also, as a side note, mug is a trait.

You omitted the fact its a minor 5 point trait.

10 point major, since I actually know where abilities I profess to have knowledge about are located.
A)There’s no need to point out where mug is – If you don’t know where mug is on the traitline, what makes you qualified to come to the boards and kitten about it?
B)2 of the 3 traits Jportel claimed where necessary for Mind wrack to hit hard are…I bet you’re going to feel silly when I finish this sentence…10 points in.

Dude, you’re a thief basher all over the forums, you should be better at this.

But also compare backstab to mindwrack… that is the big difference. Thieves can still pull of gnarly burst without mug thanks to backstab. Also thieves can pull off their burst every 4 seconds mesmers need at least 10 seconds.

Let me clarify – I’m not trying to weigh in on Mug vs Mind Wrack – I don’t know Mes’s numbers well enough to express an opinion on the matter, and unlike most people on these boards, I’m not willing to call something OP/UP/etc unless I feel like I completely understand all the factors associated.

I was simply pointing out that “7-8k Mugs” don’t exist, and “4k mugs” were a product of extreme Min/Maxing combined with a number of conditional DPS traits One of which requires your target to be below 50% health. New players who don’t truly understand what’s going on are going to come to these boards to try to figure out why they’re getting pasted so hard – when they have trouble with thieves, and come to boards and see idiots crying about “7-8k mug crits pre-nerf”, confirmation bias kicks in and we have a whole new wave of idiots. I’m just trying to prevent that.

I referenced your post to point out what a misinformed/trolling poster Gank was – he’s all over the boards crying about anything thief related; my guess is his mother did not love him.

As far as your point, I was clarifying – claiming that mug “Only needs mug” to crit like a beast is disingenous/misinformed. Mug Only needs Mug to work (obviously), huge crits (In the 4k realm) with it come from being a min/maxed GC thief and satisfying a number of conditionals, one of which requires 30 points in the Crit/crit damage traitline AND your target to be below 50% health.

The pre-nerf mug danger came mostly from the fact that you can activate it on top of another skill for potential massive combined damage.

On glassy targets in a very short time frame :
C&D+Mug+Air sigil : potentially ~3200 + 3500 + 3500
(BS+Mug+Air sigil, HS+Mug+Air sigil, etc)

While it doesn’t works the same way of course, Shatter rotation is not far behind these old numbers within the same time frame, and AoE.
And like it was told before me the homing part of the clones has everything it needs to disgustingly punish you even if you didn’t fail with your positionning.

Of course dodging in is a good way to deal with the burst, but any decent mesmer is not going to activate it without any kind of CC or positionning pressure.

Like many high damage skills out there i believe that, balance wise, the numbers are actually fine, what needs to be looked at is the activation process.
With shatter, either by requiring the player to ground target the skill and have the clones shatter here, either by only removing the homing part, making the clones run to the last position of the player instead of following him, while still being able to shatter prematurely if triggered by the opponent.

muscarine.5136:

On glassy targets in a very short time frame :
C&D+Mug+Air sigil : potentially ~3200 + 3500 + 3500
(BS+Mug+Air sigil, HS+Mug+Air sigil, etc)

These numbers…where are people pulling these from. You have never been able to hit for 3.5k from an air sigil (you might confuse this with the air rune proc, who knows). Air sigil is gonna hit for 2k on a glass cannon.

C&D has been doing 66% of the damage that Steal (Mug) used to ever since they nerfed C&D by 33%.

So in reality the numbers above would look like this assuming Steal would do 3.5k (and yes I know you could get much higher an I welcome any burst reduction to this game): 2.35k (C&D) + 3.5k Steal (using this as a baseline for the combo) + 1.75k Lightning Strike.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dude, you’re a thief basher all over the forums, you should be better at this.

Because you totally didnt just prove you’re a hypocrit, omitting facts you clearly know full well, right