Guild Wars 2

Alot of people keep saying that GW2 has none of the unique and innovative qualities that GW1 had and I have to disagree.

Never in an MMO has there been such a unique and ground breaking idea’s seen in GW2. It’s the first MMO that had a weapon swapping system which incorporated class and combat styles to change dynamically based on the tools a player picks.

Sadly there are a few broken mechanics over-shadowing all the good stuff dev’s have made. Which really isn’t a big deal to fix and I don’t know why dev’s haven’t clued into them or made steps to improve them.

1. Burst damage and I’m not just talking about thieves, there are a ton of classes with damage just set way too high. It compounds the problem when you add more players in the mix and makes fights way to short. PvP should be a intricate dance where players try to set up for combo’s while the opponent counters and looks for weaknesses. Fights in this game are way to clunky, mindless, and fast.

2. Protection, there are way too many ways to stack it and build unkillable bunkers, with the currently design of burst it’s needed but with the burst lowered it would need to be adjusted so players can’t survive such a storm of damage with passive skills that require no talent. If the burst was lowered toughness is set just about right but with the current set-up provides lil to no protection vs the massive dps spikes without protection stacking(duration not effect)

3. Haste, can’t be toned down adjusted or made to be correct, just doesn’t fit this games set-up or skill design at all, it needs to be removed. Any attempt to adjust fine tune or manage this skill will lead to a ton of other class balance issues that will confound the problem making it worse.

4. Stealth-Rendering this needs to be addressed ASAP and fixed, you shouldn’t expect to have players fight an enemy they can neither see or target. I cannot empathize how important it is for this fix to come, ignoring it any longer will literally be the destruction of the game and make all other problem’s moot as you will lose your entire player-base to this one issue alone.

Fix these four little issues’s and you got yourself a great pvp game that will grow and grow.

Pvp definitely needs to be balanced with more than just nerfs and buffs. It needs some fundamental changes as well

I’d like to see a longer TTL/TTK. I also second the notion to throw haste out the window

Fellknight.4820:

Alot of people keep saying that GW2 has none of the unique and innovative qualities that GW1 had and I have to disagree.

Never in an MMO has there been such a unique and ground breaking idea’s seen in GW2. It’s the first MMO that had a weapon swapping system which incorporated class and combat styles to change dynamically based on the tools a player picks.

Sadly there are a few broken mechanics over-shadowing all the good stuff dev’s have made. Which really isn’t a big deal to fix and I don’t know why dev’s haven’t clued into them or made steps to improve them.

1. Burst damage and I’m not just talking about thieves, there are a ton of classes with damage just set way too high. It compounds the problem when you add more players in the mix and makes fights way to short. PvP should be a intricate dance where players try to set up for combo’s while the opponent counters and looks for weaknesses. Fights in this game are way to clunky, mindless, and fast.

2. Protection, there are way too many ways to stack it and build unkillable bunkers, with the currently design of burst it’s needed but with the burst lowered it would need to be adjusted so players can’t survive such a storm of damage with passive skills that require no talent. If the burst was lowered toughness is set just about right but with the current set-up provides lil to no protection vs the massive dps spikes without protection stacking(duration not effect)

3. Haste, can’t be toned down adjusted or made to be correct, just doesn’t fit this games set-up or skill design at all, it needs to be removed. Any attempt to adjust fine tune or manage this skill will lead to a ton of other class balance issues that will confound the problem making it worse.

4. Stealth-Rendering this needs to be addressed ASAP and fixed, you shouldn’t expect to have players fight an enemy they can neither see or target. I cannot empathize how important it is for this fix to come, ignoring it any longer will literally be the destruction of the game and make all other problem’s moot as you will lose your entire player-base to this one issue alone.

Fix these four little issues’s and you got yourself a great pvp game that will grow and grow.

Professions like : guardian-elementalist-engineer rely on this boon to stay alive and be actually viable, it’s not the protection boon which make the guardian near unkillable, it’s a combination of those full HP heal elites-block and knockdown/knockback

thealth is the biggest problem. when the stealth “ends” the targets body is still invisible and this is a huge problem. especially when your target is a thief or mesmer……

Guardians have so much else going for them. They are the major outlier in the bunker meta, and need to be brought down a few notches. Bunker eles and engi’s also have great healing ability in those toughness specs, but they don’t quite reach the polar extremes of the guardian’s sustainability or the more eccentric glass cannon burst.

Arheundel.6451:

Fellknight.4820:

Alot of people keep saying that GW2 has none of the unique and innovative qualities that GW1 had and I have to disagree.

Never in an MMO has there been such a unique and ground breaking idea’s seen in GW2. It’s the first MMO that had a weapon swapping system which incorporated class and combat styles to change dynamically based on the tools a player picks.

Sadly there are a few broken mechanics over-shadowing all the good stuff dev’s have made. Which really isn’t a big deal to fix and I don’t know why dev’s haven’t clued into them or made steps to improve them.

1. Burst damage and I’m not just talking about thieves, there are a ton of classes with damage just set way too high. It compounds the problem when you add more players in the mix and makes fights way to short. PvP should be a intricate dance where players try to set up for combo’s while the opponent counters and looks for weaknesses. Fights in this game are way to clunky, mindless, and fast.

2. Protection, there are way too many ways to stack it and build unkillable bunkers, with the currently design of burst it’s needed but with the burst lowered it would need to be adjusted so players can’t survive such a storm of damage with passive skills that require no talent. If the burst was lowered toughness is set just about right but with the current set-up provides lil to no protection vs the massive dps spikes without protection stacking(duration not effect)

3. Haste, can’t be toned down adjusted or made to be correct, just doesn’t fit this games set-up or skill design at all, it needs to be removed. Any attempt to adjust fine tune or manage this skill will lead to a ton of other class balance issues that will confound the problem making it worse.

4. Stealth-Rendering this needs to be addressed ASAP and fixed, you shouldn’t expect to have players fight an enemy they can neither see or target. I cannot empathize how important it is for this fix to come, ignoring it any longer will literally be the destruction of the game and make all other problem’s moot as you will lose your entire player-base to this one issue alone.

Fix these four little issues’s and you got yourself a great pvp game that will grow and grow.

Professions like : guardian-elementalist-engineer rely on this boon to stay alive and be actually viable, it’s not the protection boon which make the guardian near unkillable, it’s a combination of those full HP heal elites-block and knockdown/knockback

If burst was lowered, protection also needs to be reduced in duration to compensate, as toughness would work as it was intended. Diminishing returns for CC abililties should also probably be added, but would need to be addressed carefully.

I agree with the OP,

I think a general problem in current profession balance is that the popular builds tend to one extreme or another.

I understand wanting to give every weapon a unique flavor and play-style but I believe ANet pushed it to an extreme.

For example, a glass-cannon Thief or Warrior can kill an unprepared enemy in a matter of 2 seconds. A more balanced build will need at least 10-15 seconds, probably more. That’s a very extreme difference.

On the other end of the spectrum, an appropriately specced Elementalist can end up having 10 times more survivablity than a “balanced” Elementalist build. Same applies to Guardians who can push their suvivability to an extreme.

This applies to weapons as well, but to a lesser extent. I get that Hammers are about stuns. but must that mean up to 10 seconds of chain-stuns?

In general, ANet needs to tone down the extremes on each end of the spectrum. Burst certainly should have it’s place, but maybe it should take at least 4-5 seconds to kill somebody.

Tanking too should be a viable build, but maybe not the ability to survive 3 players for almost a minute.

Edit: Maybe the lack of Diminishing Returns on some stats is to blame for this.

Thanks for all the positive comment’s and feedback guys. This is probably some of the most mature and constructive responses I’ve seen on a post yet.

Solving the symptoms.

Let’s look at PvP favoring either burst classes or bunkers.

Burst classes exist because you need to take out people quickly to control a point. You jump in, drop someone, then exit and fight on the outskirts. You also need them to drop bunkers quickly to take the point.

Bunkers exist because you need someone on the point who can’t die quickly, but can knockback. A bunker doesn’t need damage. Just survivability.

All of this stems from the current design of Conquest Mode. One person on a point and no one can cap it. Doesn’t matter if your team has more players there, as long as one person is on the point, you can’t cap.

Change that to a team cap system and guess what.

Burst classes will die down because you need players on the point and while you have the potential to drop someone, getting off the point hinders your teams ability to cap. You need to be able to take and dish damage, not just dish.
Bunker classes will die down because there’s no point in dying slowly 1v2 when they’re capping the point from you. You need to be able to absorb and dish damage, not just absorb.

The current game design is the problem. Not bunkers. Not burst. Not protection. Not haste. Until you’re required to go a more balanced spec, it will be either one or the other.

Daays, that is a pretty good post and was something i was really surprised to see the 1st time i entered sPvP.

I mean it’s so simple (and it should infact be a very simple change), if more players from your team are on a point and you don’t own that point, it should start the capping it.

It’s exactly what I think, but my English is so poor that I could not have explained it better

Personally, I think its hard to argue with your observations; I have made similar conclusions several times while playing.

However, we must remember that in uncoordinated teams and encounters, the builds that are centered the most on the simple extremes will always rise to the top.

Its in providing particular support in a particular role in a team comp that the middle ground can really shine.

That all being said, I do think they will bring things back to the middle a little more in upcoming patches.

I agree that you should not balance a game purely with “nerfs/buffs”. And I agree fully with haste being a bit too strong, and the stealth rendering being completely broken.

But with that being said, I dont agree with anything of the rest. Burst should be able to kill a player in the matter of seconds, and a “bunker” should be able to outlive Alot more than a “balanced/damage” build. Otherwise it would be no point in picking that specific build.

I do not know where you get your GW2 PvP experience from. But I get my information from paid tournaments. And if you actually know how to play your class and how to counter the other classes, the proclaimed imbalances will pretty much be proven flawed.

For example, I am a point defender guardian and sure I can outlive one or two good players, but just for a limited time, and I will not be close to killing either one of them, not even a glass cannon to be honest.

I am rather happy with how the tPvP is at the moment. It Really gives the feeling that it actually is the teamwork and the skill of the team players that matter, not necessarily the composition/builds.
Sure you will want atleast 1 bunker, and atleast 1-2 “roamers” that quickly can come and assist you, and you want to have a good synergy between stomping and ressing etc. But about half of the classes can be a good bunker if played right, and most classes can be a good roamer if specced for it. It comes down more to how you build your team and play it, not specifically what Classes you pick.

Bottom-line, fix broken stuff and polish the definition of classes, but dont overly buff or nerf any class. You (ArenaNet) have such a promising foundation for a PvP game here, dont break it like Blizzard (amongst others) have done with their games.

Those are the exact problems I have with the pvp so far.

The classes that use (and pretty much require) for burst, out side of backstab cheese need quickness because they’re just too simple. Quick + Auto, Quick + Strongest Attack, with maybe some cc thrown in, and that’s it. Compared to what a Mesmer/Ele have to do to achieve their spike/burst.

And the burst/bunkering definately needs toning down, it’s basically 2 completely opposite extremes atm and they both need to be taken down to a similar “range”. I actually thought with the dodging and action parts of the game it would actually be, as you said, a dance back and forth til someone wins.

To the above poster : it’s not that burst shouldn’t kill people, obviously that’s what burst is about, it’s that burst is just too mindless atm. Also, not being able to die to 2 people but also not killing them, that’s part of the issue, if 2 people are on you, you should die eventually if you don’t get help, and if they’re glass cannon you should be able to have a chance to kill them as well, you’d do less dmg than a cannon but you’re going to live much longer. Again it’s just too far in 2 opposite extremes.

Thanks Mr. Sharp for recognizing when the community is clear and concise in attempt to improve upon a game they love.

Oh also, since I can’t edit.

If the TTK raises a bit overall it would also be nice if downed state was a little weaker, maybe 20% or so less downed health just so it’s slightly easier to finish people off with just dmg as opposed to only with stomps.

Would have the side effect of making the “let em bleed out” strategy not as strong and obnoxious. And would also let casuals feel less irritated by downed state. Whenever I play hotjoin I almost never stomp anymore, it’s just tedious and if the person isn’t on a point I just let them rot or sit back and slowly pew pew them to death.

And I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to be forced to sit there for like 20-30 seconds before dying.

I’d love to see higher base hps and weak heals such that fights would be a SLOW race to emptying the opponent’s health, but it should be impossible for anyone to recover much health until you get out of combat. I find that healing is what causes the worst imbalances in games.

Daays.4317:

Solving the symptoms.

Let’s look at PvP favoring either burst classes or bunkers.

Burst classes exist because you need to take out people quickly to control a point. You jump in, drop someone, then exit and fight on the outskirts. You also need them to drop bunkers quickly to take the point.

Bunkers exist because you need someone on the point who can’t die quickly, but can knockback. A bunker doesn’t need damage. Just survivability.

All of this stems from the current design of Conquest Mode. One person on a point and no one can cap it. Doesn’t matter if your team has more players there, as long as one person is on the point, you can’t cap.

Change that to a team cap system and guess what.

Burst classes will die down because you need players on the point and while you have the potential to drop someone, getting off the point hinders your teams ability to cap. You need to be able to take and dish damage, not just dish.
Bunker classes will die down because there’s no point in dying slowly 1v2 when they’re capping the point from you. You need to be able to absorb and dish damage, not just absorb.

The current game design is the problem. Not bunkers. Not burst. Not protection. Not haste. Until you’re required to go a more balanced spec, it will be either one or the other.

Not to be a thorn at your side but. Wouldnt just running more bunkers and having them on a point together always win anyway. Knocking them off the point even in a 2v3 scenerio. Knock 2 off at a time and you’ll slowly win the point.

Unless I’m not putting 2 and 2 together.

I think we need 3 game types. 5 maps that all game types can be used on. Rotated randomly, with game types chosen randomly.

Forcing players to think about balanced builds before a game starts.

Imo the build itself is balanced, but the objective mode is the reason why bunker build seems to be overpowered or maybe i should say " must have " type of build . If there’s a 1 v1 mode or maybe even deathmatch, then i think bunker build won’t even make or break the game.

Im all in for more game modes and more maps !

I agree that the stealth rendering is a problem, since its distracting having to spam tab just to see if someone is there leaving stealth.

As for bunkers and protection, isn’t there a sigil that has a 60% chance to remove a boon on crit?

bunkers are still killable, but the problem is that it would take at least 30 second and sometimes even a minute to kill 1 in a 1 v 1 fight or even 2 v 1 fight. By the time you killed the bunker, his team would already have 50 70 more points than your team and that is even if you get to kill him before his team comes in.

Knote.2904:

Oh also, since I can’t edit.

If the TTK raises a bit overall it would also be nice if downed state was a little weaker, maybe 20% or so less downed health just so it’s slightly easier to finish people off with just dmg as opposed to only with stomps.

Would have the side effect of making the “let em bleed out” strategy not as strong and obnoxious. And would also let casuals feel less irritated by downed state. Whenever I play hotjoin I almost never stomp anymore, it’s just tedious and if the person isn’t on a point I just let them rot or sit back and slowly pew pew them to death.

And I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to be forced to sit there for like 20-30 seconds before dying.

I’ve thought about this and considered making a post in this regard. I hope this is something the devs are looking at. I wish the median life of a downed state was that of a glass cannon theif with some variance from there.

I have a post of my own suggesting a different Game mode into fully utilize all classes and not cookie cutters that do better in King of the hill style! Check it out!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Current-State-On-SPVP-Tpvp-Improvement-suggestions/first#post613957

Might just post mine on here since this one is addressing some of the main issues i have with spvp/tpvp.

I think haste and stealth are a part of the dance. When they enemy is out of dodges you use haste to deal massive damage. If they are unprepared great. If they are prepared and survive then you need to be ready for a counterattack.

As for stealth. I LOVE FIGHTING THIEVES. I play a ranger and I know when a thief is coming I need to on my toes. Even though the thief is invisible I can still “imagine” where they are and 90% of the time I can dodge their back stab. If I lose them then I can always use a spread shot, an aoe, and a pet f2 aoe that can find them for me. The only annoying thing is when they disappear and leave once they know they can’t win because you get left at a contention point wondering where they are lurking.

As for those with high survivability. What a great counter for your high dps build! They can just absorb your damage and then make you dance while you wait for your CDs.

As for burst damage most classes have some sort of invulnerability or stun break. Once they are out of skills its your turn to counter attack.

I don’t think the dance needs to be changed I just think people need to bring the right dance moves to tango.

But Eurantien u cant play tango with a guy that have small pointy-sharp shoes and afraid for ur feet every sec :P
Its better to replace his shoes with normal big ones , that most ppl have :P
Even if the tango get slower , will be enjoable from both :P

Then its not as intimate! Granted if they nerf backstab the massive stealth on the thief would then just be REALLY annoying because there will be no predicting what they are gonna do.

Completly agree with everything said by the OP.
At first I was expecting PvP being a mix of cleansing conditions, buffing yourself, using both condition damage and direct damage as well as CC and other effect to survive or take down an oppenents… And in the end it’s all about quickness kill someone with hundred blades, thief spammable weapon skills or ultimate bunker everything.

Only thing I would add is… remove downed state or nerf it to the ground for sPvP. Tired of loosing a fight because they have 1 more guy on their side. Winning a battle should be purely about skills. Not about how many people can heal each other out of downed state.
imo, the best would simply be, if you go down, you will die after 5-6 seconds no matter what (After all you are mortally wounded at this point…) and you can only use 2 abilities, 1 DPS and 1 soft CC.

Here is my post from the other thread

I have been reading the pvp forums for a while and i have not come across substantial constructive material that adress major issues with pvp in this game. I am sure most of you who are doing spvp or tpvp in this game competitively realized some serious problems over the time you have been playing it. The way pvp is in its current state, is no were near a esport(which is what anet has been shooting for but i see no improvement). I don’t want to go into wvw in this thread since its in the Spvp forums, So i will address in my view the problems that i feel is really holding this game back from being competitive and fun. Also suggestions on how to improve.

PROBLEM!
Spvp only has one form(or mode)however you want to put it. Which is king of the hill based over three capture points. First question, Was this a smart idea to balance pvp around with? I think this was a poor choice in a mmo considering the fact that spvp and Tpvp is overrun by guardians/thief’s/mesmers. Why you might ask? Tpvp makes very good use of those classes abilities and utilities. No matter how much balancing arena net do to try and make things better, by nerfing or buffin etc.. IT WONT fix the problem plain and simple. Unless arena net either a redesign the whole class(es),which i doubt they will do.

Guardians with the right build can hold of a entire team until teammates arrive for help.They have enough utility to sustain and make fights last longer(Downed State can elongate battles by their ability). They can also dish out very good damage at the same time.
Mesmer’s are a pain in the butt to fight just due to the fact they are hard to stick on with the sheer number of clones they can create. On top of that if specced correctly you can do some massive melee damage or stack conditions on your opponents.If you yourself take condition damage no problem you have an ability to put back on your target. To me mesmer’s are the most OP at the moment for Tpvp
Thief’s by far have the most upfront burst damage and makes them very unpredictable. It can be hard to counter if they get there skills to all critt. You might die before you get chance to even swing at them.They are very good for getting that pesky player trying to capture a point(s). They also attain very good tactical utility skills to either evade(stealth) or Teleport around the map(shortbow). No matter what expect to be always opened up by a thief.

Spvp/Tpvp just make this classes shine its catered to they way they are designed.

SOLUTION

I don’t really care if this game becomes a esport or not . If anything gets fixed, A easy solution would to obviously add Random/Team Arenas like guild wars 1. It’s team death match style for those of you who didn’t play the first one. Which did a excellent job at utilizing many different types of builds and team composition. Its much easier to balance a mmo around team deathmatch than objective based in my eyes. Every class has the ability to kill and heal. Now its just a matter building around your teammates. Were as King of the hill will always point to guardians/thiefs/mesmers/because it optimizes them. You might think that we might arrive to the same problems that are currently going on. But if you think about it, more classes will be viable with many different builds.

PROBLEM

Another major issue and i know its been brought up. DOWNED STATE needs to go. Some classes have better abilities when they are down(Guardians/Warriors/Mesmers).
You cannot expect to play competitively knowing when you down someone there is a good chance he will get back up and come back and kill you and stay up. Chances increases when you fight around your teammates for surviving.

CONCLUSION
This game has a lot of potential to shine in pvp. Problem is people are not going to sit around and wait forever for a fix and so far it anet has been flooded with work. I dont see a fix anytime soon. Whether or not this game becomes a esport, or if arena net pursues it. They need to sit down and really think about how they plan to accomplish because as it stands. Objective based is not going to accomplish this.

SORRY FOR THE WALL OF TEXT.

“Alot of people keep saying that GW2 has none of the unique and innovative qualities that GW1 had and I have to disagree.”

Well…

It does have alliance battles (Conquest)
It has well the same class names that function nothing like they did before really and could actually be a separate class from what their gw1 counterpart actually was.

But that’s about it from what I’ve seen.

I don’t aggre with the OP. The problem with Burst is only when you die in 2 seconds but you can’t kill in 2 seconds as well.
I remember Daoc casters would killed you in 3-4 seconds but they would die in the same time as well .
Tanks(bunkers) survived a lot , they were designed to survive and soak tons of damage. if you don’t survive and you can’t kill then why are you going to be a tank?

I really like the design where all classes if they spec for it, they can do any role. Specialization is good for teamwork, even FPS now have roles for with they weapons and kits.

I would see ok if a thief can kill me in 2seconds but IF I can do it too for example if I’m a ranger or necro and I’m specc for it.
The same way I would see fine if a thief can tank like a guardian if both are spec for it.

The problem is this is not possible right now and creates unbalance.

The last sentence will be.
I’m a player and I like to play X class because I love his mechanics and I love their background theme. and I want to play this Y role with the unique abilities of my class X

Short history. As a player in all MMORPG since 1997 I have been playing a mage archetype. I like spells and I like damage but I always have a secondary character melee with support healing like a paladin.
In this game, first I started playing as elementalist staff trying to repeat the mage archetype but soon I found I could play a mage melee dps with some support and healing I can do both playstyles in the same character so and I don’t need that secondary character anymore I’m not super high damage character or super high healing character but I do fine with this balanced build and I enjoy it

The point about increasing ttk/ttl is interesting, its definately more fun to have an extended battle than to just be dropped to zero in an instant (even if you are running a high toughness build). Even if you lose you get a feeling of satisfaction and can reflect on the encounter and try and improve for next time.

There are three classes in particular that can bring even a high toughness class from full to zero in an instant in spvp. Mesmer, theif, and warrior. Other classes may be able to do it, but if so its not something that happens enough that I particularly notice it.

Of those three, it is easiest to avoid the warrior burst and then to fight back and have an interesting match-also the warrior burst only comes if they catch you from behind or otherwise occupied. The mesmer and thief instant-kill burst is more frustrating because it is so much harder, or even impossible, to prevent; and if you already have close to max toughness and so forth you basically have to resign yourelf to respawning whenever they target you.

Apart from the mesmer, I know that this kind of burst is dependant on fairly long CDs, and/or you not having a stun or immobolize breaker ready off cd. However, from the perspective of enjoyment, I’m not sure that it is good to be able to be killed in 2 seconds or whatever just because CDs are up or down.

Sniser.1297 :
about tanks doing no damage: game is conquest, so a unkillable bunker at a point grant you score to win the match.
about glass vs glass: well the first who hit wins. and thief have an advantage in this imho…but, if you as necro mange to put fear aoe under you…etcetc..

I agree with pretty much everything people said so far. In my opinion if they want to make the game around domination/conquest, maps should be a lot bigger and more people should be allowed to join. Maybe a 15 v 15 in a wider map. This would make up for a much mobile tactical game, as the current maps feel too small, in fact most maps take no time from point A to B to C, meaning a confrontation can be ignored completely.

The turn around point of some maps are ok in paper design but don’t work as well in practice. Example, the map with the trebuchet usually causes enemies to go mad over destroying the enemy’s trebuchet, this leaves points open for cap just to have someone come and fix it over and over, most teams who are actually organize move along and leave it yet this leaves a possibility for the enemy to wipe them specially in the clock tower. As maps are small, the trebuchet easily becomes a farming machine instead of a support fire machine.

The same goes with all the other maps, go after the lord or not, let’s do it, all points get capped and the team usually gets back taken wiped, those might look like strategies, but over all every match turns to be repetitive, take points while high dps try to steal enemy boss, or i take point you go keep, the over all reality is most matches go down to a TDM style where he who got more bunkers win.

TDM imo is a very good idea as you simply need to balance the classes to be viable against each other. Now the main problem we confront at the moment is the fact that many classes got too much on their side while others got too little. This usually comes from the fact that background design really spoils the possibilities of a class. Example, the elementalist needs all elements else he won’t be an elementalist, he be a common wizard/sorcerer/witch/shaman whatever your choice of spell casting name is. This creates a paradox, how do we balance those elements without making them over powered? In reality unless you make all elements do the same thus destroying the class completely you can’t. So anyone who can do elemental dancing which honestly with the difference being 3 more keys…even a 5 years old can do it. They can become an unstoppable killing machine. Now the same goes for mesmers and guardians.

When you put Guardians vs Warrior in the ring of design. Guardians are magic users so we can make them do things that comes from our imagination. Warriors are well…in the mind of most people boring hack and slash walls. So the warrior makes a predictable jump while the guardian teleports. The warrior slashes the air missing usually, the guardian shoots blades of light. So on it goes. For me warriors are the best class in the game, mainly cause I enjoy the complexity hidden behind their simplicity. Now they gave the warrior many unique futures, yet most of them are so limited that they all short compared to other classes.

This is the same case as mesmers/elementalist vs the necro. So the mesmer is an illusionist, let’s give him stealth. Giving stealth to a spell caster is never a good idea. Now let’s make him being able to teleport. Hum you just destroyed all melee classes. And how about we let them do a lot of damage in melee. Yep super nerd dream has been born. Thus over powered. Now you look at the necro and through design you decide he should do condition damage and have minions… Yup. You end up with people complaining, mainly cause there isn’t as much going on for them as there is for the other two.

Now the main problem in pvp imo, is simple. In a game where there is suppose to be no tanks or healers. Some classes heal and tank too much. When the game was new and no one knew wtf was going on, people moved to different specs, it was fun. Then they said ok what if I tank. All hell broke loose. Even in a TDM style game a bunker will break all balance an over healer too, specially if they can support each other. So is time to minimize those extra heals in the character specs.

Rythgar.2896:

For example, I am a point defender guardian and sure I can outlive one or two good players, but just for a limited time, and I will not be close to killing either one of them, not even a glass cannon to be honest.

Wow that sounds amazingly fun man. ’It’s ok, we are standing around on a circle not killing eachother’.

/sarcasm

I am rather happy with how the tPvP is at the moment. It Really gives the feeling that it actually is the teamwork and the skill of the team players that matter, not necessarily the composition/builds.

And then you put this after. lol. I know what you mean, but yeah. If you werent a bunker in that earlier example than the fight would have been COMPLETELY different, you would not have been tanking 2 glass cannons that long no matter what your skill is, so yeah its first and foremost about composition/builds.

1. Burst damage and I’m not just talking about thieves, there are a ton of classes with damage just set way too high. It compounds the problem when you add more players in the mix and makes fights way to short. PvP should be a intricate dance where players try to set up for combo’s while the opponent counters and looks for weaknesses. Fights in this game are way to clunky, mindless, and fast.

I’ve noticed this problem right away when I started playing this game. Being used to GW1’s low-level Random Arenas, I found the (monk team) matches there to be more tactical than the spvp of this game, for the fact that there existed better means to survive longer (but never too long) against burst builds, and because bunker builds were pointless and ended up counting as one member less on their team, and were then left for last in a 4vs1 situation and easily dispatched.

But I’m not saying conquest is worse. I like the extra strategy behind defending and capping points, in addition to the normal deathmatches that happen there (or somewhere else). But I feel like burst builds are too mindless in the sense that, even if they were/ are perfectly balanced, they just kill too fast, before you have time to react and have fun using your profession meaningfully, and who cares if they die too fast if they fail? You won’t have the opportunity to use your profession meaningfully there neither, because 2-3 skills will finish them.

I think the extreme damaging builds and the extreme defensive builds should be toned down, and compensated with a little bit more of the opposite each.

When I play with an elementalist, I usually only have fun with it when I’m specced for defense, because it gives me time to survive and it takes me time to kill, which allows me to do a lot per battle and having fun. Now, spike elementalists are underpowered at the moment, but even if they were any good and could kill as fast as they can die, would they lead to a funnier spvp match? Aren’t thieves already in that situation, and isn’t that already annoying? And I DO enjoy spike or balanced builds over defensive builds. I DO enjoy being offensive-oriented. But I don’t enjoy killing or being killed in 3 seconds. If an elementalist spiker ever comes out someday, I still want to use all my skills, but that will never be fair against a thief or a warrior who only need to use 3-4 skills due to extreme bursts extremely fast, as long as these continue to exist.

I’m walking around the map, suddenly someone pops up behind my back and takes out 3/4 of my HP before I can react. Or I find someone, stealth and do the backstab sequence to them. If they are glass cannons, it’s a win. And if elementalists were ever this good at spiking, then I would Ride the Lightning and do the air/ fire spike sequence for the same effects. Until, of course, someone catched me behind, and killed me in 3 seconds.

Yeah, I don’t like that. My elementalist in GW1 (taking into account the more recent patches) usually focused more on spiking with Mind Shock, Invoke Lightning; or having a good balance between damage and defense with Shockwave builds or Mind Blast builds. Not a fan of the tankier Stone Sheath or Blinding Surge. Yeah, that’s my tastes. But none of those were extreme. I still had to kite, swap to my defensive sets, use my block skills, and rely on my monk, or else I would get destroyed fast. And if I did all that, I would last long enough. Being more offensive meant less margin for defensive errors, and being more defensive meant less margin for offensive errors. There was no such thing as “kill in 3 seconds or die in 3 seconds”.

Now, a conquest mode without the traditional trinity is more unorganized and chaotic, and I don’t mind that, but I would enjoy it more if it wasn’t full of extremes. It’s boring to stay forever in one point because someone refuses to die for one minute, and it’s frustating to get stealth-killed or haste-killed out-of-nowhere and being left wondering “if I jut had time to react, things could have been different…” It’s unsatisfying.

I think the mantra for extremes is that the closer you get to one, the more you require a teammate to finish the job. After all this is the way of life. A ‘balanced’ society can only get so far. Humankind excels because people adopt “specializations”, their personal “weaknesses” being covered by others specializations. This can work with GW2 as long as the holy-cow (group/targeted healing) is untouched.

Perhaps thieves should not be able to heal and stealth at the same time. seperating those two may create a profound adjustment.

Perhaps stability should exist on a give and take basis with healing power

I don’t mind chain-stunning for a period as long as that is on a give and take basis with damage (and perhaps some mobility). In fact that’s pretty cool because it becomes a team effort to take someone down. The victim had a choice to be mobile or take stun breakers after all.

that’s just a couple thoughts.

Defektive.7283:

Not to be a thorn at your side but. Wouldnt just running more bunkers and having them on a point together always win anyway. Knocking them off the point even in a 2v3 scenerio. Knock 2 off at a time and you’ll slowly win the point.

Unless I’m not putting 2 and 2 together.

I think we need 3 game types. 5 maps that all game types can be used on. Rotated randomly, with game types chosen randomly.

Forcing players to think about balanced builds before a game starts.

It’s a fair assumption.

But right now, a condi engineer is pretty much a well rounded spec. Has damage and survivability and they can easily down a bunker. Just not quickly. But in a team cap system, you don’t need to quickly take someone down. They just need to go down.

If the other team is playing a 4 bunker strat, even if they get some knockbacks off point, they will eventually go down from the lack of damage and ways to mitigate incoming damage. And once one is down, they lose the point.

Also, that’s assuming all 4 sit on point and don’t get knockbacked themselves. Or need to get off the point because they’re low on HP and waiting for their heal to come back up.

Daays in your scenerio I’d just always, always run 3 bunker, mesmer, Roamer/Burst.

Mesmer would just port the bunkers around to cap a point or to defend it, Roamer/Burst would be first responder when Portal is down.

(3 bunk – doub guardian ele) Basically perma stability for the group at all time, they wouldn’t get knocked off.

Overall, the problem isn’t quickness, or burst, or bunkers even. It’s Conquest.

When the game type is set, the maps are set – specifically around holding and taking points. Then there’s no other clear choice but Bunker/Burst/Mobility.

Until other game types are added either class balancing needs to happen for Nerfs/Buffs, or we’ll just have more of the same.

Imo Daays pretty much hits it in his post.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Nerf-or-Buff-is-not-what-PVP-needs/first#post612316

Class balance or certain skill or whatsoever are not the problem. Basically it’s the lack of complexity in tPvP. The PvP mode is always the same, the number of players is limited and it’s far below the number of available professions. Even the maps are always the same. All this makes certain classes/builds mendatory to bring at the current state of the game.

So what happens if you add more maps to the pool?
It adds complexity. Let’s assume you bring a Mesmer for the sole pupose of having him at the treb on Kyhlo (I know they’re hella good anyway and usefull on any map but let’s just assume that). If you don’t get to play that map because the pool is just too big to assure that this is going to happen the Mesmer blocks a spot for a profession which would be more suitable for the map you actually play.

What happens if you add a second combat mode and leave the map/mode unknown until the game starts. Let’s say you have to destroy a stone (which can receive boons/heals/conditions but takes overall less dmg and has a high hp pool) or whatsoever which the enemy is guarding while trying to break your stone at the same time. Characters would need alot more sustainability for this mode. It’d also favour pure support builds alot which you don’t see in the current PvP. Thsi is of course just an example, in fact there are alot PvP modes different from the current conquest mode.

If ANet added more maps which would occur in a random sequence and if they added randomized PvP modes then there wouldn’t be something like a perfect team setup because the game got alot more complex.

Then you would just split 4-1 for a quick neut and rejoin mid. If you send 5 mid, you have the player advantage, but it comes down to if they dodge the mesmer shatters and other burst class. If so, downing a shatter mesmer or other glass cannon is simple. What you described is already what every team runs in the current conquest system anyways, and it’s already beatable by doing just that. Get out of time warp, interrupt the shatters, aoe, focus the thief/warrior, etc.

You’re just not punished for losing players because they’re glass and missed their burst. They just get a res or die and come back and try again because you have 3 bunkers.

Anyways, downed players shouldn’t be allowed to cap points in any system. That would be a good start.

Finally can edit:

Anyways Defektive, I would initially just fight that setup 5v5 mid and win. Glass DPS can’t take down anyone with protection quickly (and almost all well-rounded builds have some form of auto protection built in) and once one of your DPS is down and out, we would take the point from you.

I think the fundamental shortcoming of GW2 PVP is Downed State. It has too great a determinant on the outcome of an encounter and overly subverts the natural flow of combat. I’d start with eliminating downed state from all PVP zones. It adds nothing but detracts a lot.

The other fundamental problem is the lack of depth in builds relative to GW1. Ele for instance, 3/4 or more of the traits available are bugged or grossly underpowered compared to others.

I don’t feel like I have any real build choice, as nothing but defensive builds are effective. I never felt that way in GW1 in 4 years of playing it.

I feel like GW2 totally missed the mark on the weapon/skill design and there is a ton of revision and additions required to bring it up to the level of GW1 in depth, strategy and replayability.

Removing or serious changling downed state and putting the focus back on the combat, not the ressing/stomping would be a good start.

I play a 0/0/30/30/10 (full defense) Guardian with 2k Toughness/Vitality and don’t see how our “bunker” build needs to be toned down.

- I still get insta-gibbed by Glass Cannon Thieves and 100b Warriors.
- Most people can 1v1 me because I gave up all of my damage to become tanky.
- I work better with one or more allies than I do solo.
- I’m hilariously easy to kite, especially by “bunker” Engi’s and Ele’s.

I’m able to DELAY 1-2 people, for varying lengths of time, from capturing a point but that’s pretty much all I can do.

Alot of great suggestions espeically for tpvp. But I really do believe that if burst was toned down and protection stacking tweaked to compensate, you would see a new dynamic added to tpvp as well as spvp.

I think alot of class/roles that have been discarded would suddenly become viable to group synergy in a way we haven’t yet seen.

Classes with less raw survivability but more CC or counter-type abilities would succeed in a group funtion.

We’d see new support roles
New tank/bunker roles
New DPS roles

And basically fill those niches were missing in group-scale combat.

Hopefully down the road smaller scale Arena or Tournement play for 2v2 or 3v3 that would add even more diverse groups with different class/roles to allow players more variety and distinctiveness.

Allowing player’s to find a group/competitive play that suits their personal playstyle best.

You know the bottom line is and many people have stated. No matter how much tweaking anet thinks they need to do to balance and or nerf. Tpvp will always cater to those classes who are designed better for that type of game mode. Unless they want to redesign classes and focus on making King of the hill there main focus. They need to simply add more game modes to be able to play other classes imo.

Daays.4317:

Solving the symptoms.

Let’s look at PvP favoring either burst classes or bunkers.

Burst classes exist because you need to take out people quickly to control a point. You jump in, drop someone, then exit and fight on the outskirts. You also need them to drop bunkers quickly to take the point.

Bunkers exist because you need someone on the point who can’t die quickly, but can knockback. A bunker doesn’t need damage. Just survivability.

All of this stems from the current design of Conquest Mode. One person on a point and no one can cap it. Doesn’t matter if your team has more players there, as long as one person is on the point, you can’t cap.

Change that to a team cap system and guess what.

Burst classes will die down because you need players on the point and while you have the potential to drop someone, getting off the point hinders your teams ability to cap. You need to be able to take and dish damage, not just dish.
Bunker classes will die down because there’s no point in dying slowly 1v2 when they’re capping the point from you. You need to be able to absorb and dish damage, not just absorb.

The current game design is the problem. Not bunkers. Not burst. Not protection. Not haste. Until you’re required to go a more balanced spec, it will be either one or the other.

Daays,

We argue so often, that I thought I should comment on this.

I agree with you.

Except, ANet will need to decide which way they want to go with that. I prefer a game full of more balanced builds than one full of extreme builds.

I actually enjoy fast combat and quick battles, I mean, how many fireballs does it take to kill someone in real life?

Lets take 2 healers from another MMO and have them fight one another… casting smite or holy punch 20 times before one goes down, that doesnt sound fun to me

Now lets take a fight between a warrior and a magician, the battle shouldnt last more than 20 seconds or else it loses exitement.

Yes, some bursty classes need to be toned down, I dont think thieves should be allowed to kill anyone in less than 3 seconds but that happens a LOT. But I also dont think it should take more than 10 “fireballs” or “sword slashes” to kill someone.

I agree with the OP’s points (although not with the thread title) and would like to add something I already mentioned before in another thread, but I think it’s important enough to repeat myself:

People keep talking a lot about buffing and nerfing certain skills, builds, buffs, etc. and that is OK, but it’s also looking too much at details IMO.
In Chess, amateurs are constantly given the advice to learn to develop a plan, to ask yourself questions like “How do I want the board to look in 10 moves?”. So ask yourself: how do I want GW2 PvP to look?
Personally, I want movement and positioning to matter, I want interaction of skills and skill between me and my opponent(s), a dance instead of a rushed solo. Skills need to matter to me and my opponent, enough that they feel forced to react to them and vice versa. This means for example, that several soft control skills, such as snares or shields, should last longer so players feel that the time to activate them was worth it. When I use skills I want to use them because I feel that they are powerful and do something significant, not because they are off cooldown and I might as well. Everytime I die I want to be able to tell myself "This was my mistake, not the fault of an “easy to execute but too hard to counter” attack, I can improve to do it better next time".

Defektive and I were talking about this last night, here’s what I came up with -

-Buffing and nerfing is kind of irrelevant right now, since the only game type is conquest. Bunkers and spikers will always be the default team loadout in conquest, no matter how buffed/nerfed they are. In this I think the entire thread agrees ; ). Thus more game types are needed.

SO, assuming that more game modes will be forthcoming, here’s some observations:

-Locking characters/builds/traits before matches and randomizing map (game type) rotation will force the meta towards balanced builds.
-Locking map rotation and leaving character/build/trait swapping between matches will force the meta towards specialized builds (for each map).
-Once custom matches come online I imagine both of the above types of tournaments will be available (ANet, make sure this can happen!).
-If Microsoft Office has taught us anything, it’s that defaults matter. The meta will reflect this, whatever ANet decides to make of sPvP.
-Custom matches will be less popular because they’ll be too attractive to farm achievements with, so inevitably there will be little to no reward for doing customs, unless the tournament host offers them. Or customs will need their own reward structure, which still precludes earning things like qualifying points for serious PvPers.

Both balanced teams/builds and specialized teams/builds can be interesting in their own ways, so I actually support seeing both and hope they come around with customs. It might be even better to see ANet themselves implement both modes, though, to encourage both styles of gameplay to evolve.