Guild Wars 2

Aww, can’t edit my post.

As to the quickness thing from OP – I thought quickness was really neat in BWE when it was 33%, no downsides, and given to only Rangers. Warriors had one utility to take advantage of it, but really it was more like a Ranger class feature. Buffing it to 50% and handing it out like candy has made quickness too powerful and too prevalent. Especially Time Warp. Ten seconds is waaayyyy too long for an AoE 50% quickness, elite or no.

Protection is in a similar boat. It’s an interesting thing that can really help squishies get some temporary defenses, but long-duration protection in combination with other things (i.e. guardian 4ever knockbacks) is difficult to deal with, seeing as few classes have boon flips.

Its hard for me to take their concerns seriously until they nerf Warrior, thief and mesmer spammable 10-15 K EZ mode burst skills. I don’t know what they were thinking.

If haste was removed and burst toned down condition specs would have more time to set up for the dmg they need players would also have time to notice what conditions or effects their suffering from.

Classes which dont have the raw comdition spec dmg that say a necro has would be.more viable using their defensive abilities in conjunction with utility making effective new roles.

I think alot of skeptical players would be amazed how these changes would effect the game for the better.

Agree’d. Above all, burst needs toned down. Period.

Quickness should have been removed in beta when it became clear it was so good it needed a severe drawback, or a mechanic change.

The problem with bunkers isn’t protection, its excessive healing+protection. Healing should really be slot 6 only, with regeneration being on weapon/utility skills.

Weapons need to changeable only in spawn to force choices on build. Do you really need the mobility? or do you need the damage?

Metagame currently seems fine (in general). The metagame shifts quite a bit from month, especially with heavily played classes like thief, as people become accustomed to people mindlessly playing the same builds against them. Builds that require higher degrees of skill, or novel builds that are not flashy will always be less popular in the lower rungs of pvp due to not granting instant gratification (as well as in high level pvp as it’s ‘untested/unsafe’ unless a team built specifically to take advantage of it). It should be noted however build isn’t quite as important as the skill of the player behind it. As inexperienced players handle situations far differently than the skilled, which is what makes the pvp in Gw2 far better than most rpgs, the person behind the character matters far more than skills on the hot bar.

I have no problems with haste being removed, it seems to make skills that are otherwise fine, overpowered. Then instead of haste getting nerfed, the skills get nerfed, making them too weak outside of haste.

Maybe a change to haste could be: Haste no longer causes skills to be executed 50% faster, but it now causes skills to recharge 100% faster. Then if necessary you can adjust the cooldown and time. In the case of thieves haste would obviously cause initiative to recharge twice as fast.

I agree with Fellknight’s original comments. The changes suggested would really iron out some wrinkles in PvP and it probably is a good idea to move away from the buff-nerf cycle. Not that class issues should be ignored, but tackling the underlying mechanics might fix some of them indirectly.

I’ve said before, I do believe GW2 has some great innovations. For a few years before its release I was privately wishing someone would build an MMO with no healers. And I’ve always hated the stealth game as implemented by other games. Not sure I like GW2’s stealth side either, but it is a truly original approach.

^ After these changes were implemented, diminishing returns should prolly be added to stop players from getting stuck in chain CC.

There is no profession that can chain CC Fellknight, a hammer warrior can chain maybe 5 seconds effectively, but only once every 40 seconds at most, and they don’t do a lot of damage in that time since the hammer has no high damage skills, only debuffs.

Zsymon.8457:

There is no profession that can chain CC Fellknight, a hammer warrior can chain maybe 5 seconds effectively, but only once every 40 seconds at most, and they don’t do a lot of damage in that time since the hammer has no high damage skills.

My god this kid is simple minded to the max like most people. Warrior with Mace + Shield can chain CC and maybe even land an HB there. And guess what? It isn’t even hard, but for special kids like you it definitely is hard.

In short: Agree with the 4 points listed.

Zsymon.8457:

There is no profession that can chain CC Fellknight, a hammer warrior can chain maybe 5 seconds effectively, but only once every 40 seconds at most, and they don’t do a lot of damage in that time since the hammer has no high damage skills, only debuffs.

I was talking about multiple attackers not just a single opponent. D.returns would effect the target or victim so that once a stun/fear/daze landed the next stun to land would have shorter duration and if another Cc effect landed in that time the player would be granted limited immunity. CC is meant to jam or interrupt abilities, not lock down a player so that he dies without a chance to react.

Fellknight.4820:

If haste was removed and burst toned down condition specs would have more time to set up for the dmg they need players would also have time to notice what conditions or effects their suffering from.

Classes which dont have the raw comdition spec dmg that say a necro has would be.more viable using their defensive abilities in conjunction with utility making effective new roles.

I think alot of skeptical players would be amazed how these changes would effect the game for the better.

WHY LOW TTK IS BAD:
i totally agree with you OP. burst is completely ridiculous and on par to mages/rogues in rift at release, bw/sorcs throughout warhammers life, rogues in vanilla wow, etc. any game with rpg mechanics should not have a 3 second or less TTK, it detracts from health of the game in many ways. an example of this would be no reaction time to counter, pigeon holed builds either being the burster or a bunker, and classes being unable to fulfill one or the other builds would be considered under performing. low ttk does not promote smart play in any way shape or form, it does the opposite. low ttk promotes button mashing and one trick pony builds designed to get that burst off with as little chance to fail as possible(ease). the end result is a mmo that plays almost like a shooter where one glass cannon wins over the other simply by who pulls the trigger first, this leaves many classes and players not interested in playing anything other then a fotm.

solutions are as simple as reducing the burst of key abilities while increasing other abilities DPM in an attempt to promote sustained over burst.

BURST:
thiefs JUST AS AN EXAMPLE could have a combo system that would reward a player with extra damage over time for using abilities in sequence, for example you opened with back stab out of stealth on a player which puts a debuff on him that will explode doing X damage over Z time frame IF he lands with a second “combo” ability within a said amount of time before the debuff expires. you could have different effects for different combos, you could incorporate the existing combo system, you could have multiple combo triggers with cumulative results. overall this would increase player skill and reduce the need for high burst since you would be compensating the reduction with a higher sustained damage capability.

BOONS:
another big issue i have is the way boons perform. since bwe i played a guardian and right off the bat i noticed how overpowered retaliation and protection could be, and immediately made and tried boon builds with very long duration increases. this resulted 2 minutes of retaliate and similar numbers on protection through the use of traits and runes. if these boons happened to have a limited amount of hits they could sustain before being stripped they would be far easier to balance. for example if retaliate only worked against say 3 damage abilities before expiring the damage and even duration would be easier to balance considering you switched a boon from being a passive ability to a proactive one. you wouldnt simply pop all of your boon abilities right before a fight started for fear that they would be wasted on non crucial attacks or simply run out of duration, instead you would wait for that critical moment in a battle where a high impact but very short duration boon could completely swing the tide. this is how i envision boons being properly used in a fast paced mmo pvp format should be.

just these changes although somewhat complex would promote imo smarter, funner, and more balanced game play. they would REQUIRE planning, timing, and coordination, rather then pigeon holed specs and an over reliance on the “who shot first” mentality.

^ This is exactly the kind of fine tuning the game needs to promote a higher lvl of skilled play. Retaliation and protection stacking both need to be tweaked.

Fellknight.4820:

^ This is exactly the kind of fine tuning the game needs to promote a higher lvl of skilled play. Retaliation and protection stacking both need to be tweaked.

cheers

labotimy.2439:

BOONS:
another big issue i have is the way boons perform. since bwe i played a guardian and right off the bat i noticed how overpowered retaliation and protection could be, and immediately made and tried boon builds with very long duration increases. this resulted 2 minutes of retaliate and similar numbers on protection through the use of traits and runes. if these boons happened to have a limited amount of hits they could sustain before being stripped they would be far easier to balance. for example if retaliate only worked against say 3 damage abilities before expiring the damage and even duration would be easier to balance considering you switched a boon from being a passive ability to a proactive one. you wouldnt simply pop all of your boon abilities right before a fight started for fear that they would be wasted on non crucial attacks or simply run out of duration, instead you would wait for that critical moment in a battle where a high impact but very short duration boon could completely swing the tide. this is how i envision boons being properly used in a fast paced mmo pvp format should be.

just these changes although somewhat complex would promote imo smarter, funner, and more balanced game play. they would REQUIRE planning, timing, and coordination, rather then pigeon holed specs and an over reliance on the “who shot first” mentality.

I’m not sure your suggestion for retal and protection would work all that well in this game. GW2 has a lot of abilities that are clusters of small hits (e.g. Necro Life Leech or Thief Pistol Whip). If it expired after 3 hits (or even 7 hits), it wouldn’t make it even to the end of one of those attacks.

Possibly your suggestion could be tweaked for the abilities to expire after absorbing a set amount of damage instead? In a way, that would bring it into line with many other skills, which DO a set amount of damage, so perhaps the whole system would be more manageable for balancing.

I agree with all of Fell’s points. I worry about some classes though. If you nerf their bunker builds, how will this affect their mixed/balanced builds?

@Relentliss sorry but the quote button is touchy on these forums and appears to have disappeared on me again.

Currently toughness just doesn’t scale with the burst in this game, now when you mix it with protection and retaliation for some classes it becomes too powerful. If burst was toned down, you’d have to lower protection/ret as players would literally become impossible to kill. It be like giving a resto druid paladin armor lol just don’t work(hate to quote wow but it’s something most people know).

Condition’s have an advantage over burst in the fact that they bypass armor, but with the burst so high it doesn’t give much of an advantage to go the slow and steady route to pvp when other classes can kill in seconds.

Middles builds that are currently overshadowed by extreme builds would become if anything more powerful.

Players would no longer be forced into FULL DPS or FULL BUNKER as a player with lower armor or lil to no protection/ret stacking could use his kiting/CC/heal/condition removal abilities to live longer. If anything I think it would greatly add to middle builds that are all but extinct nowadays for most role/classes.

By far the most elegant solution to dealing with damage spikes would be to have a critical strike chance and/or damage reducing stat. The easiest solution would be to couple it into Armor granted by armor pieces and auras/boons. This creates a cap that can be hit by boons and armor pieces and grants warriors and guardians the higher passive damage reduction over leather and cloth wearing professions that they should have given their heavier and harder to get through armor. This actually allows Leather and Cloth wearing professions a chance to close that gap through any auras that provide extra armor. Burst gets to remain where it’s at right now but takes huge steps back by merely changing that one thing, it also strengthens condition damage a little since it’s currently not affected by critical chance/damage OR armor/toughness.

In the essence of dealing with PvE I cannot recall being critically hit by a NPC so I think a change such as this wouldn’t negatively impact PvE survivability (trivializing encounters thus making content too easy and boring because of it).

I would say that when you get out of stealth your skills are disabled for 3 seconds.

I would like to see all the profession specific bugs to be gone next patch.

Thief to deal 25% less damage with their next skill if it has been less than 1 second before using a new skill.

When you hit a mesmer clone/illusion you should deal some damage to the original.

Anastaziel.4968:

I would say that when you get out of stealth your skills are disabled for 3 seconds.

I would like to see all the profession specific bugs to be gone next patch.

Thief to deal 25% less damage with their next skill if it has been less than 1 second before using a new skill.

When you hit a mesmer clone/illusion you should deal some damage to the original.

This just happened to my warrior with 2.4k armor and 21k health so idk if 25% would cut it

Well. 25% reduced damage from stealth targets.

The problem is that unlike your average (monk) healer in GW you don’t need energy to continue healing back up. Where once you’d be pressuring the healer’s energy with sustained damage, now sustained damage is absolutely pointless unless you’re managing more effective dps then the tank you’re hammering away at is healing effective health. Given how strong healing is this makes sustained damage far inferior to burst.

Personally I see nothing wrong with point holding tanks, only with the fact that sustained damage has no real place in the metagame. If anything it’s sustained damage that should beat the tanks, and the bursters preying on the more frail dpsers.

I don’t know how one would go about fixing this, other then seriously re evaluating the way healing works.

I should add I’ve not done a lot of pvp, I’m going by what I hear and what I theorize here.

Fellknight.4820:

Players would no longer be forced into FULL DPS or FULL BUNKER as a player with lower armor or lil to no protection/ret stacking could use his kiting/CC/heal/condition removal abilities to live longer. If anything I think it would greatly add to middle builds that are all but extinct nowadays for most role/classes.

No, people would still play full bunker.

Let’s say your suggestions come true. Thieves backstab like a wet noddle. 100B hits less than auto attacks. Mindwrack is more like a mind massage.

Your nerf to protection did nothing, as it’s no longer needed. Right now, the only reason to have protection is because of the high burst damage in this game. Weakness will be far more effective at reducing incoming damage.

You now have people who don’t die in seconds, they actually don’t die at all. Low on HP? Rotate with someone on point (already done in most cases) until your heal comes back up.

The game will become about one thing and one thing only. Control. This is how all MMORPGS work. When you cannot cross a threshold to global someone, control effects become the strongest abilities in the game.

Which means guardians, eles, engies, and necros will all become a requirement because of control effects and stability. Mesmers will still be required because of portal and boon removal.
Warriors will be decent because of hammer/mace control.
And Thieves and Rangers will be useless as they offer no control effects or stability.

You’ve changed the game into an even more boring version in which you have high hp, low DPS players knocking each other around the map trying desperately to control a point.

But everyone ignores one major thing. The downed system in this game was added to directly counter burst damage. So that if you get dropped instantly, you can still help your team, and your team has a chance to res you mid fight.

I fear the worst when they nerf all burst specs into the ground.

I’d rather have them remove downstate and give us higher HP pools.

Who wants to spend half their time throwing rocks at other players and staring at their crotches as their pile up on top of you for stomps and rez?

And removing downstate means one less element to balance.

Remove haste.
Remove stealth.

I know fixed 90% of the current problems of GW2 PvP/WvW without even using a proper sentence.

Pretty much have to agree with you. You can’t nerf burst while leaving bunkers alone, and you can’t nerf bunkers to leave glass cannons killing everything in sight. I think the bunker nerf would need to be taken a little further than protection, but that’s a dev decision. Quickness is indeed too strong, granted that’s coming from a mesmer… we have the best quickness in the game There are other things that need to be looked at obviously, but I think most people will agree that longer fights (but not ridiculously long… bunker vs bunker anyone?) would be more enjoyable.

Daays.4317:

Fellknight.4820:

Players would no longer be forced into FULL DPS or FULL BUNKER as a player with lower armor or lil to no protection/ret stacking could use his kiting/CC/heal/condition removal abilities to live longer. If anything I think it would greatly add to middle builds that are all but extinct nowadays for most role/classes.

No, people would still play full bunker.

Let’s say your suggestions come true. Thieves backstab like a wet noddle. 100B hits less than auto attacks. Mindwrack is more like a mind massage.

Your nerf to protection did nothing, as it’s no longer needed. Right now, the only reason to have protection is because of the high burst damage in this game. Weakness will be far more effective at reducing incoming damage.

You now have people who don’t die in seconds, they actually don’t die at all. Low on HP? Rotate with someone on point (already done in most cases) until your heal comes back up.

The game will become about one thing and one thing only. Control. This is how all MMORPGS work. When you cannot cross a threshold to global someone, control effects become the strongest abilities in the game.

Which means guardians, eles, engies, and necros will all become a requirement because of control effects and stability. Mesmers will still be required because of portal and boon removal.
Warriors will be decent because of hammer/mace control.
And Thieves and Rangers will be useless as they offer no control effects or stability.

You’ve changed the game into an even more boring version in which you have high hp, low DPS players knocking each other around the map trying desperately to control a point.

But everyone ignores one major thing. The downed system in this game was added to directly counter burst damage. So that if you get dropped instantly, you can still help your team, and your team has a chance to res you mid fight.

I fear the worst when they nerf all burst specs into the ground.

Cmon man that doesn’t even make any sense, why did nerfing 12k backstabs suddenly become dropping dmg to the floor.

I know you play a theif it’s easy to tell when you rush to every theif thread to defend the class which makes logical debate nearly impossible because you need to value logic to use it.

The only reason everyone is running bunker/tank build’s is because the dmg is set to insanity. Most players don’t want to be tanks they just don’t have any other options who wants to die 75 times a match.

Theif is the only class viable as a glass cannon because with invis they don’t die like every other class. So we basically have a billion tanks and theives, two roles in game, it’s a death sentence to this game.

Here’s a pic of my first run with a theif, didn’t know what half the buttons are and my pts are five lower then the highest in the match from a guy with 10 glory ranks on me.
I didn’t die once, not a single time the entire match. I don’t think anyone should pick up a class and perform like that it’s silly, and it proves how skill-less it is

Fellknight.4820:

Cmon man that doesn’t even make any sense, why did nerfing 12k backstabs suddenly become dropping dmg to the floor.

The only reason everyone is running bunker/tank build’s is because the dmg is set to insanity. Most players don’t want to be tanks they just don’t have any other options who wants to die 75 times a match.

Theif is the only class viable as a glass cannon because with invis they don’t die like every other class. So we basically have a billion tanks and theives, two roles in game, it’s a death sentence to this game.

Here’s a pic of my first run with a theif, didn’t know what half the buttons are and my pts are five lower then the highest in the match from a guy with 10 glory ranks on me.
I didn’t die once, not a single time the entire match. I don’t think anyone should pick up a class and perform like that it’s silly, and it proves how skill-less it is

I multi-class all classes. Just play a thief because the people who I play with have other spots filled.

You honestly believe thief is the only viable glass cannon? That those teams running GS warriors aren’t glass? That shatter mesmers aren’t glass? Do you honestly not see those classes in tPvP? Maybe not warrior as much, but 9/10 mesmers I run into are shatter spec. All of those are viable. It’s why I listed them in my example or nerfing all burst damage classes into the ground.

Are you honestly complaining about stealth? You’re not immune to damage. Going stealth doesn’t break roots. It doesn’t stop the AoE damage being thrown on top you of. You can easily track stealthed players with auto attacks. The majority of the time you stealth you’re required to dodge roll or the good players will easily follow you for those 3 seconds.

Your initial post wasn’t about thieves. It was about burst classes. Unless you only think thief is the only burst class (tbh I feel you do). You say tune down burst, then tune down protection, yet you fail to realize that the only benefit to protection is against burst. So if burst is tuned down, then you don’t need protection to survive. That Weakness will be the best form of mitigation. Hence my entire post.

I don’t even know why you’re responding. It’s like you completely did a 180 on your initial failed changes and have all of a sudden started crying about thieves as if they’re the only burst class in the game.

Was simply informing you that by nerfing burst into the ground, people will swap to control specs. Which just happen to be bunker specs. And classes without control effects, aka thieves and rangers, will be completely useless.

And you even failed to address the whole point of downed state. You know, the direct counter to being bursted. A thief can’t finish someone alone. And a thief can’t win 1v1’s in a down-state fight because their 3 ability isn’t a heal nor a DPS move.

Daays.4317:

Fellknight.4820:

Cmon man that doesn’t even make any sense, why did nerfing 12k backstabs suddenly become dropping dmg to the floor.

The only reason everyone is running bunker/tank build’s is because the dmg is set to insanity. Most players don’t want to be tanks they just don’t have any other options who wants to die 75 times a match.

Theif is the only class viable as a glass cannon because with invis they don’t die like every other class. So we basically have a billion tanks and theives, two roles in game, it’s a death sentence to this game.

Here’s a pic of my first run with a theif, didn’t know what half the buttons are and my pts are five lower then the highest in the match from a guy with 10 glory ranks on me.
I didn’t die once, not a single time the entire match. I don’t think anyone should pick up a class and perform like that it’s silly, and it proves how skill-less it is

I multi-class all classes. Just play a thief because the people who I play with have other spots filled.

You honestly believe thief is the only viable glass cannon? That those teams running GS warriors aren’t glass? That shatter mesmers aren’t glass? Do you honestly not see those classes in tPvP? Maybe not warrior as much, but 9/10 mesmers I run into are shatter spec. All of those are viable. It’s why I listed them in my example or nerfing all burst damage classes into the ground.

Are you honestly complaining about stealth? You’re not immune to damage. Going stealth doesn’t break roots. It doesn’t stop the AoE damage being thrown on top you of. You can easily track stealthed players with auto attacks. The majority of the time you stealth you’re required to dodge roll or the good players will easily follow you for those 3 seconds.

Your initial post wasn’t about thieves. It was about burst classes. Unless you only think thief is the only burst class (tbh I feel you do). You say tune down burst, then tune down protection, yet you fail to realize that the only benefit to protection is against burst. So if burst is tuned down, then you don’t need protection to survive. That Weakness will be the best form of mitigation. Hence my entire post.

I don’t even know why you’re responding. It’s like you completely did a 180 on your initial failed changes and have all of a sudden started crying about thieves as if they’re the only burst class in the game.

Was simply informing you that by nerfing burst into the ground, people will swap to control specs. Which just happen to be bunker specs. And classes without control effects, thieves and rangers, will be completely useless.

And you even failed to address the whole point of downed state. You know, the direct counter to being bursted. A thief can’t finish someone alone. And a thief can’t win 1v1’s in a down-state fight because their 3 ability isn’t a heal nor a DPS move.

There’s no argueing with you I’ve seen your type in every game, you’ll ruthlessly defend what it is obviously an extreme balance problem in pvp.

It’s pve players like yourself that join into quick easy pvp systems, find an op spec and then try to say that the easy mindless button mashing tactics take skill and are needed for that class to be around. I say burst and class for a nerf, but there’s only one class you care about your theif so let’s not BS and pretend you care about any other classes burst getting nerfed. My main is a warrior I’m calling for a huge burst reduction on them as well because there burst is too high as well. But no your gonna say no burst should be adjusted because you know it would balance out theives alot. Just be honest bro don’t be a politician.

It’s that type of thinking that is an albatross on modern pvp and contributes greatly to the death of many games.

Player’s said bright wizards in Warhammer were fine, Dev’s let the issue go far too long due to player misinformation game died.

Player’s in Rift said Pyromancer one shotting was fine game died.

Player’s in Swtor said Bounty hunter uber healing, insane dmg burst and tank armor was fine, game died.

I could go on all day with this, But right now the game’s pvp community is dwindling and your saying everything is ok, it’s not ok bro, you’d really rather keep your class OP even when there will be no one left to play with, all the hardcore pvp guilds are already gone.

And alot of classes burst is not ok it’s too high, fights are too short and only a mesmer and theif would say it’s fine because there the only two classes that can escape this zergfest setup.

You few players saying it’s ok are handing the dev’s nails to put the coffin lid on this game.

Fellknight.4820:

There’s no argueing with you I’ve seen your type in every game, you’ll ruthlessly defend what it is obviously an extreme balance problem in pvp.

It’s pve players like yourself that join into quick easy pvp systems, find an op spec and then try to say that the easy mindless button mashing tactics take skill and are needed for that class to be around.

It’s that type of thinking that is an albatross on modern pvp and contributes greatly to the death of many games.

Player’s said bright wizards in Warhammer were fine, Dev’s let the issue go far too long due to player misinformation game died.

Player’s in Rift said Pyromancer one shotting was fine game died.

Player’s in Swtor said Bounty hunter uber healing, insane dmg burst and tank armor was fine, game died.

I could go on all day with this, But right now the game’s pvp community is dwindling and your saying everything is ok, it’s not ok bro, you’d really rather keep your class OP even when there will be no one left to play with, all the hardcore pvp guilds are already gone.

And alot of classes burst is not ok it’s too high, fights are too short and only a mesmer and theif would say it’s fine because there the only two classes that can escape this zergfest setup.

You few players saying it’s ok are handing the dev’s nails to but the coffin lid on this game and if yea don’t basically shut up and tell the truth, this game won’t last till christmas.

What are you even babbling about?

You respond “lol thief burst insane check this spvp pic”? And now you’re talking about players in RIFT and SWTOR and WAR? Then finish with the end of the world speech?

I addressed your post, your thoughts, and outlined that while you may have good intentions, the game will turn into mass bunker spec’s with control abilities, because that’s how you gain points in conquest. Of course there’s no arguing with me. You’re not even arguing the point I’m making. That by nerfing burst, you shift the game to purely about control. Classes without control will be benched for classes with them.

Why are you even responding again? Can you please get the slightest bit of reading comprehension and stay on your own topic.

Fellknight.4820:

Words

Oh hey, I remember you, you’re the guy that not long ago (couple hours) posted a giant thief whine post that got deleted. You said that you’ve been playing pvp for 15 years and have won tournaments!

Fellknight.4820:

It’s pve players like yourself that join into quick easy pvp systems, find an op spec and then try to say that the easy mindless button mashing tactics take skill and are needed for that class to be around.

And it’s stuff like this that makes you a massive tool. Person disagrees with you and puts forward good points? Better call them a pve player that mashes buttons to win.

Please go and roll a thief and get top score in a 8v8 hotjoin and use that as proof of the class needing a nerf. Oh you did that?

We should base all balance decisions on the possibity of getting top of the board in an 8v8 hotjoin.

Your OP was actually pretty good and constructive this time, at least try not to put on the angry pants and go namecalling in the next thief whine post you make.

Daays.4317:

Fellknight.4820:

There’s no argueing with you I’ve seen your type in every game, you’ll ruthlessly defend what it is obviously an extreme balance problem in pvp.

It’s pve players like yourself that join into quick easy pvp systems, find an op spec and then try to say that the easy mindless button mashing tactics take skill and are needed for that class to be around.

It’s that type of thinking that is an albatross on modern pvp and contributes greatly to the death of many games.

Player’s said bright wizards in Warhammer were fine, Dev’s let the issue go far too long due to player misinformation game died.

Player’s in Rift said Pyromancer one shotting was fine game died.

Player’s in Swtor said Bounty hunter uber healing, insane dmg burst and tank armor was fine, game died.

I could go on all day with this, But right now the game’s pvp community is dwindling and your saying everything is ok, it’s not ok bro, you’d really rather keep your class OP even when there will be no one left to play with, all the hardcore pvp guilds are already gone.

And alot of classes burst is not ok it’s too high, fights are too short and only a mesmer and theif would say it’s fine because there the only two classes that can escape this zergfest setup.

You few players saying it’s ok are handing the dev’s nails to but the coffin lid on this game and if yea don’t basically shut up and tell the truth, this game won’t last till christmas.

What are you even babbling about?

You respond “lol thief burst insane check this spvp pic”? And now you’re talking about players in RIFT and SWTOR and WAR? Then finish with the end of the world speech?

I addressed your post, your thoughts, and outlined that while you may have good intentions, the game will turn into mass bunker spec’s with control abilities, because that’s how you gain points in conquest. Of course there’s no arguing with me. You’re not even arguing the point I’m making. That by nerfing burst, you shift the game to purely about control. Classes without control will be benched for classes with them.

Why are you even responding again? Can you please get the slightest bit of reading comprehension and stay on your own topic.

you just dont get it. fell was pointing out the FACT that other games with overpowered burst mechanics bit the dust. obviously your the one with reading comprehension issues. this is not up for debate, IT IS A FACT. overpowered burst mechanics leads to dead games, keep defending it though.

Daays.4317:

Fellknight.4820:

There’s no argueing with you I’ve seen your type in every game, you’ll ruthlessly defend what it is obviously an extreme balance problem in pvp.

It’s pve players like yourself that join into quick easy pvp systems, find an op spec and then try to say that the easy mindless button mashing tactics take skill and are needed for that class to be around.

It’s that type of thinking that is an albatross on modern pvp and contributes greatly to the death of many games.

Player’s said bright wizards in Warhammer were fine, Dev’s let the issue go far too long due to player misinformation game died.

Player’s in Rift said Pyromancer one shotting was fine game died.

Player’s in Swtor said Bounty hunter uber healing, insane dmg burst and tank armor was fine, game died.

I could go on all day with this, But right now the game’s pvp community is dwindling and your saying everything is ok, it’s not ok bro, you’d really rather keep your class OP even when there will be no one left to play with, all the hardcore pvp guilds are already gone.

And alot of classes burst is not ok it’s too high, fights are too short and only a mesmer and theif would say it’s fine because there the only two classes that can escape this zergfest setup.

You few players saying it’s ok are handing the dev’s nails to but the coffin lid on this game and if yea don’t basically shut up and tell the truth, this game won’t last till christmas.

What are you even babbling about?

You respond “lol thief burst insane check this spvp pic”? And now you’re talking about players in RIFT and SWTOR and WAR? Then finish with the end of the world speech?

I addressed your post, your thoughts, and outlined that while you may have good intentions, the game will turn into mass bunker spec’s with control abilities, because that’s how you gain points in conquest. Of course there’s no arguing with me. You’re not even arguing the point I’m making. That by nerfing burst, you shift the game to purely about control. Classes without control will be benched for classes with them.

Why are you even responding again? Can you please get the slightest bit of reading comprehension and stay on your own topic.

Your not telling the truth, your saying burst is fine and looking for ways to angle the conversation because you play a theif anyone who checks your one of the worst offenders of the “learn to play” mentality on this forum.

Every single one of your posts is telling players learn to play and theives are fine. No matter how you disguise it with clever rhetoric.

How can I debate someone who will ignore the fact’s.

Answer me this one question do you believe taking 75% of someone’s life in under 1.5 seconds or with a single strike is ok?

Fellknight.4820:

Answer me this one question do you believe taking 75% of someone’s life in under 1.5 seconds or with a single strike is ok?

Did you know that devs have already said that they are looking at backstab burst damage and will be reducing is raw damage?

Paranoid.9542:

Fellknight.4820:

Answer me this one question do you believe taking 75% of someone’s life in under 1.5 seconds or with a single strike is ok?

Did you know that devs have already said that they are looking at backstab burst damage and will be reducing is raw damage?

they shouldnt stop there, all burst should be toned down whether its shatter, backstab, or 100b. low ttk is bad for the health of any mmo that has rpg mechanics. this has been proven time and time again, how many players were driven to quit by BW and pyromancers? i saw first hand the power of ruin and destruction or flame puddle stacking or CC immunity plus 25% damage mitigation by standing in a puddle hurling 1 shot fireballs.

know before you talk mmmk? kthxbai.

Fellknight.4820:

Your not telling the truth, your saying burst is fine and looking for ways to angle the conversation because you play a theif anyone who checks your one of the worst offenders of the “learn to play” mentality on this forum.

Every single one of your posts is telling players learn to play and theives are fine. No matter how you disguise it with clever rhetoric.

How can I debate someone who will ignore the fact’s.

Answer me this one question do you believe taking 75% of someone’s life in under 1.5 seconds or with a single strike is ok?

No where in my post have I said L2P. I’ve simply explained that with all burst specs nerfed into the ground, that control will take over. And two classes will be completely removed because they don’t have control abilities or access to stability.

I don’t know how you failed to notice that. It’s basically been my entire point. That if conquest was changed to a team-cap system, in which the team with the most players on point controls that point, then you would remove the need for extremes in this game.

The only fact is that you’ve somehow managed to miss all this and changed your stance from “nerf burst, nerf protection, nerf haste” to “nerf thief burst damage”.

labotimy.2439:

you just dont get it. fell was pointing out the FACT that other games with overpowered burst mechanics bit the dust. obviously your the one with reading comprehension issues. this is not up for debate, IT IS A FACT. overpowered burst mechanics leads to dead games, keep defending it though.

You honestly think WAR died because of burst classes? Not their terribly designed keep raid system rewarding offense? Not that flipping a zone required mass amounts of PQ’s? Not their terrible random loot system? Not that their biggest highlight of all, assaulting the Capitol City, could not actually function. The servers would crash. You would get 1 FPS.

His post was nothing more then a copy+paste job he’s been wanting to post for a while now. It’s quite obvious when it had nothing to do with my post.

labotimy.2439:

they shouldnt stop there, all burst should be toned down whether its shatter, backstab, or 100b. low ttk is bad for the health of any mmo that has rpg mechanics. this has been proven time and time again, how many players were driven to quit by BW and pyromancers? i saw first hand the power of ruin and destruction or flame puddle stacking or CC immunity plus 25% damage mitigation by standing in a puddle hurling 1 shot fireballs.

know before you talk mmmk? kthxbai.

First off I never played those games, nor did I say I did, nor did I comment on them, nor do I care about them. But please keep talking about them to try and prove how wrong I am.

My question was for Fell as he’s basically been on a campaign for a while over how crazy BS is, which I dont disagree with. I’m asking him if he’s aware that Anet has already stated they will be lowering the build’s raw damage.

Dont be a tool while talking mmmk? kthxbai.

Daays.4317:

Fellknight.4820:

Your not telling the truth, your saying burst is fine and looking for ways to angle the conversation because you play a theif anyone who checks your one of the worst offenders of the “learn to play” mentality on this forum.

Every single one of your posts is telling players learn to play and theives are fine. No matter how you disguise it with clever rhetoric.

How can I debate someone who will ignore the fact’s.

Answer me this one question do you believe taking 75% of someone’s life in under 1.5 seconds or with a single strike is ok?

No where in my post have I said L2P. I’ve simply explained that with all burst specs nerfed into the ground, that control will take over. And two classes will be completely removed because they don’t have control abilities or access to stability.

I don’t know how you failed to notice that. It’s basically been my entire point. That if conquest was changed to a team-cap system, in which the team with the most players on point controls that point, then you would remove the need for extremes in this game.

The only fact is that you’ve somehow managed to miss all this and changed your stance from “nerf burst, nerf protection, nerf haste” to “nerf thief burst damage”.

labotimy.2439:

you just dont get it. fell was pointing out the FACT that other games with overpowered burst mechanics bit the dust. obviously your the one with reading comprehension issues. this is not up for debate, IT IS A FACT. overpowered burst mechanics leads to dead games, keep defending it though.

You honestly think WAR died because of burst classes? Not their terribly designed keep raid system rewarding offense? Not that flipping a zone required mass amounts of PQ’s? Not their terrible random loot system? Not that their biggest highlight of all, assaulting the Capitol City, could not actually function. The servers would crash. You would get 1 FPS.

His post was nothing more then a copy+paste job he’s been wanting to post for a while now. It’s quite obvious when it had nothing to do with my post.

i guess your knowledge of war shows when you started playing. if you started in beta you would know first of all that forts were unshakable for probably the first 2 years of the games life. second what city sieges? they didnt happen till half the population died and servers were consolidated and patches went through. in the beginning no one took forts, no one got to city, everyone was capped at invader gear, and yes people left because of BW’s.

labotimy.2439:

i guess your knowledge of war shows when you started playing. if you started in beta you would know first of all that forts were unshakable for probably the first 2 years of the games life. second what city sieges? they didnt happen till half the population died and servers were consolidated and patches went through. in the beginning no one took forts, no one got to city, everyone was capped at invader gear, and yes people left because of BW’s.

I started playing when everyone else did. At launch. I left when everyone else did. 3 months later.

And you still think BW’s were broken cause of damage? They were broken because on top of the high aoe/st damage, they had a 50% heal debuff on the target & healer, damaged whoever healed them, had a 5 second disarm, and a silence. Their damage alone was fine if that’s all the class had. Add in all that other crap and it’s just flat out ridiculous.

Why are we even talking about WAR? Congrats. You’re a WAR mastermind knowitall. You win.

Daays.4317:

labotimy.2439:

i guess your knowledge of war shows when you started playing. if you started in beta you would know first of all that forts were unshakable for probably the first 2 years of the games life. second what city sieges? they didnt happen till half the population died and servers were consolidated and patches went through. in the beginning no one took forts, no one got to city, everyone was capped at invader gear, and yes people left because of BW’s.

I started playing when everyone else did. At launch. I left when everyone else did. 3 months later.

And you still think BW’s were broken cause of damage? They were broken because on top of the high aoe/st damage, they had a 50% heal debuff on the target & healer, damaged whoever healed them, had a 5 second disarm, and a silence. Their damage alone was fine if that’s all the class had. Add in all that other crap and it’s just flat out ridiculous.

Why are we even talking about WAR? Congrats. You’re a WAR mastermind knowitall. You win.

not to keep this war discussion going or anything, but if that were the case why were sorcs also considered OP when they lacked the majority of the utility you just named? oh yea the insanely high burst whether it was ST or aoe.

war is a perfect example of class balance gone wrong, same thing with rift and the pyromancer/sab/champion fiasco at release. certain classes were killing each other in seconds, and absolutely dominating the field of play. if you dont find this relevant to gw2 in regards to class balance, im not sure what would be.

labotimy.2439:

Daays.4317:

labotimy.2439:

i guess your knowledge of war shows when you started playing. if you started in beta you would know first of all that forts were unshakable for probably the first 2 years of the games life. second what city sieges? they didnt happen till half the population died and servers were consolidated and patches went through. in the beginning no one took forts, no one got to city, everyone was capped at invader gear, and yes people left because of BW’s.

I started playing when everyone else did. At launch. I left when everyone else did. 3 months later.

And you still think BW’s were broken cause of damage? They were broken because on top of the high aoe/st damage, they had a 50% heal debuff on the target & healer, damaged whoever healed them, had a 5 second disarm, and a silence. Their damage alone was fine if that’s all the class had. Add in all that other crap and it’s just flat out ridiculous.

Why are we even talking about WAR? Congrats. You’re a WAR mastermind knowitall. You win.

not to keep this war discussion going or anything, but if that were the case why were sorcs also considered OP when they lacked the majority of the utility you just named? oh yea the insanely high burst whether it was ST or aoe.

war is a perfect example of class balance gone wrong, same thing with rift and the pyromancer/sab/champion fiasco at release. certain classes were killing each other in seconds, and absolutely dominating the field of play. if you dont find this relevant to gw2 in regards to class balance, im not sure what would be.

Again Labotimy shows he is an exp’d seasoned pvper that understands the dynamics and flow that has eluded designers game after game, this was the exact problem in Rift.

No one played Rift for pve content unless it was to get better gear for pvp content. It like GW2 is a game whose playerbase consist’s of the homeless transit pvp community that has been let down by Dev’s title after title.

There are many hardcore pvp guilds(player’s prolly many both me and Labotimy know as friends in games and RL) that have all agreed upon the imbalances in the games stated just like they did in GW2.

Burst here is too high, forcing player’s to all roll bunker to escape. The fact that elementalists are playing MAGE TANKS is the perfect example just the idea of a mage tank is ludicrous. Even tho quite effective here it should never be a viable tactic for cloth classes. But now that it’s here the dev’s have no choice but to balance it when they should have given elementalist’s the dmg and escapes to compete with Glass cannon builds like every player wants out of a mage type.

labotimy.2439:

not to keep this war discussion going or anything, but if that were the case why were sorcs also considered OP when they lacked the majority of the utility you just named? oh yea the insanely high burst whether it was ST or aoe.

war is a perfect example of class balance gone wrong, same thing with rift and the pyromancer/sab/champion fiasco at release. certain classes were killing each other in seconds, and absolutely dominating the field of play. if you dont find this relevant to gw2 in regards to class balance, im not sure what would be.

His comparison to broken classes is not why people left those games. They left because of faulty game design. Not class balance.

Class balance means even less in GW2, when the barrier to entry is removed. Thieves OP? Roll a thief and play. Mesmers required? Learn a mesmer. That massive time investment of leveling/gearing up is gone for this game. Want to see who’s better? Play a mirror match.

The reason why people will/are leaving GW2 is two-fold:

One is because the current game mode of Conquest rewards extreme specs because of how you take control of points. You either need to be super tanky with control to survive long enough for backup to arrive. Or be super bursty so that you can quickly capture a point and neutralize defenders.

The second is because of competitive game design. Barrier to entry is gone, but that middle ground in which the majority of the player base floats does not exist. There is no way to practice to get better vs teams of equal skill level. You either queue as an organized team and stomp free tournies/PUGS or queue into paids and lose the first round to top teams. As such, people see they can’t advance and will just leave. You can only pubstomp so much until you’re bored.

Daays.4317:

labotimy.2439:

not to keep this war discussion going or anything, but if that were the case why were sorcs also considered OP when they lacked the majority of the utility you just named? oh yea the insanely high burst whether it was ST or aoe.

war is a perfect example of class balance gone wrong, same thing with rift and the pyromancer/sab/champion fiasco at release. certain classes were killing each other in seconds, and absolutely dominating the field of play. if you dont find this relevant to gw2 in regards to class balance, im not sure what would be.

His comparison to broken classes is not why people left those games. They left because of faulty game design. Not class balance.

Class balance means even less in GW2, when the barrier to entry is removed. Thieves OP? Roll a thief and play. Mesmers required? Learn a mesmer. That massive time investment of leveling/gearing up is gone for this game. Want to see who’s better? Play a mirror match.

The reason why people will/are leaving GW2 is two-fold:

One is because the current game mode of Conquest rewards extreme specs because of how you take control of points. You either need to be super tanky with control to survive long enough for backup to arrive. Or be super bursty so that you can quickly capture a point and neutralize defenders.

The second is because of competitive game design. Barrier to entry is gone, but that middle ground in which the majority of the player base floats does not exist. There is no way to practice to get better vs teams of equal skill level. You either queue as an organized team and stomp free tournies/PUGS or queue into paids and lose the first round to top teams. As such, people see they can’t advance and will just leave. You can only pubstomp so much until you’re bored.

Here’s my thief, first match I ran with him didn’t know half the buttons I used. Didn’t die once and managed to watch Laurie die during the second sadest Walking Dead episode since Sophia.

Lotta skill there you’ve convinced me there fine lol. I guess if your a terrible pvp player you would think it takes alot of skill to do this but I often watch TV while rolling people with my thief, never dying, and coming in #1.

Don’t fool yourself thieves are the Number 1 reason players are leaving I know because on all the pvp guilds thieves and mesmer’s were listed as the Number 1 reason they hate the game. No one wants to esport a game that takes zero skill in pvp.

Fellknight.4820:

Daays.4317:

labotimy.2439:

not to keep this war discussion going or anything, but if that were the case why were sorcs also considered OP when they lacked the majority of the utility you just named? oh yea the insanely high burst whether it was ST or aoe.

war is a perfect example of class balance gone wrong, same thing with rift and the pyromancer/sab/champion fiasco at release. certain classes were killing each other in seconds, and absolutely dominating the field of play. if you dont find this relevant to gw2 in regards to class balance, im not sure what would be.

His comparison to broken classes is not why people left those games. They left because of faulty game design. Not class balance.

Class balance means even less in GW2, when the barrier to entry is removed. Thieves OP? Roll a thief and play. Mesmers required? Learn a mesmer. That massive time investment of leveling/gearing up is gone for this game. Want to see who’s better? Play a mirror match.

The reason why people will/are leaving GW2 is two-fold:

One is because the current game mode of Conquest rewards extreme specs because of how you take control of points. You either need to be super tanky with control to survive long enough for backup to arrive. Or be super bursty so that you can quickly capture a point and neutralize defenders.

The second is because of competitive game design. Barrier to entry is gone, but that middle ground in which the majority of the player base floats does not exist. There is no way to practice to get better vs teams of equal skill level. You either queue as an organized team and stomp free tournies/PUGS or queue into paids and lose the first round to top teams. As such, people see they can’t advance and will just leave. You can only pubstomp so much until you’re bored.

Here’s my thief, first match I ran with him didn’t know half the buttons I used. Didn’t die once and managed to watch Laurie die during the second sadest Walking Dead episode since Sophia.

Lotta skill there you’ve convinced me there fine lol. I guess if your a terrible pvp player you would think it takes alot of skill to do this but I often watch TV while rolling people with my thief, never dying, and coming in #1.

Don’t fool yourself thieves are the Number 1 reason players are leaving I know because on all the pvp guilds thieves and mesmer’s were listed as the Number 1 reason they hate the game. No one wants to esport a game that takes zero skill in pvp.

1. thing that makes me sad about gw2 is you wont see this ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXJs2Aj55uM

this fight was between two max geared groups using serious group comps and organization. it lasted nearly 10 minutes and was a “dance” back and forth between all involved. this was one of the most intense group fights i have played in, it was close and a hard won fight even though the opposition cheated. forgive the slideshow and music, great fight all round. if only gw2 could elevate pvp to the level of this broken pvp game.

Fellknight.4820:

Here’s my thief, first match I ran with him didn’t know half the buttons I used. Didn’t die once and managed to watch Laurie die during the second sadest Walking Dead episode since Sophia.

Lotta skill there you’ve convinced me there fine lol. I guess if your a terrible pvp player you would think it takes alot of skill to do this but I often watch TV while rolling people with my thief, never dying, and coming in #1.

Don’t fool yourself thieves are the Number 1 reason players are leaving I know because on all the pvp guilds thieves and mesmer’s were listed as the Number 1 reason they hate the game. No one wants to esport a game that takes zero skill in pvp.

I like how you managed to troll your own thread.

You started off with saying nerf burst, protection, and haste.

Now you’re crying about thieves/mesmers, how they’re making people leave the game, and posting random SS of you in sPvP games, and how that’s justification for nerfing a class.

Well done sir.

“2. Protection, there are way too many ways to stack it and build unkillable bunkers, with the currently design of burst it’s needed but with the burst lowered it would need to be adjusted so players can’t survive such a storm of damage with passive skills that require no talent. If the burst was lowered toughness is set just about right but with the current set-up provides lil to no protection vs the massive dps spikes without protection stacking(duration not effect)”

+ Burst comments.

The problem isn’t really that there’s too much protection, but that the game will forever be stuck in a burst v bunker build battle with the current singular game mode. Basically, capture point based on king of the hill means bunker builds and roaming quick hit builds are the standards and will continue to be the standard. This entire issue is caused by the rules of the one singular sPVP modee, because that mode doesn’t really offer much viability to other types of builds.

For example, think about Capture Point mode where you can capture a point via sneaking in and interacting with an object. This is common on some forms of Cap Point. This allows a bypassing of bunker, defensive and turtling sorts of builds. This allows stealthy, sneaky builds to exist. It counters bunker without needing to engage in the burst/mitigation war that tears apart so many MMO’s pvp balance.

Yet even that isn’t a true solution to the issue, because that is only adding one role to play. Structured PVP needs an increase of roles and playstyles to open up the game and keep it fresh. It really needs something other than Cap Point. It desperately needs it. The meta isn’t going to move beyond bunker/burst until the game is changed away from Cap Point.

I can create a daze Mesmer for sPVP and I can daze up a group and be annoying, but that doesn’t really help my team in sPVP. I have tried different ideas and roles, but playing bunker with less effort or experience is so much more effective. Those outside the lines builds? They just have no place, so the game doesn’t grow. Instead, it gets stuck in a burst v mitigation battle.

Daays.4317:

Solving the symptoms.

Let’s look at PvP favoring either burst classes or bunkers.

Burst classes exist because you need to take out people quickly to control a point. You jump in, drop someone, then exit and fight on the outskirts. You also need them to drop bunkers quickly to take the point.

Bunkers exist because you need someone on the point who can’t die quickly, but can knockback. A bunker doesn’t need damage. Just survivability.

All of this stems from the current design of Conquest Mode. One person on a point and no one can cap it. Doesn’t matter if your team has more players there, as long as one person is on the point, you can’t cap.

Change that to a team cap system and guess what.

Burst classes will die down because you need players on the point and while you have the potential to drop someone, getting off the point hinders your teams ability to cap. You need to be able to take and dish damage, not just dish.
Bunker classes will die down because there’s no point in dying slowly 1v2 when they’re capping the point from you. You need to be able to absorb and dish damage, not just absorb.

The current game design is the problem. Not bunkers. Not burst. Not protection. Not haste. Until you’re required to go a more balanced spec, it will be either one or the other.

I see much truth in this.

Burst and bunker builds are products of the current game design of conquest maps. Fixes to protection and haste is likely misplaced attention.

At the very least, the effectiveness of bunkers and burst will be toned down with regard to point capping. In turn, this will hopefully direct player’s attention to other possible builds/professions.

Nevertheless, Anet has to focus on fixing and improving the big picture side of things first. Ladders, a great match-making system, map diversities, etc. Anet said it would like to take time to see how the community fleshes out in terms of skills and their balancing, and that a valid point. But how do you expect that to happen when the proper systems aren’t even in place, that the player base is declining drastically with much fewer people experimenting.
And I cannot stress this more, why are 8v8 hotjoins still there?

I’ve disagreed with Daays in the past, but it’s really disappointing to see him make very logical arguments, only to see the responses wax emotional and dodge the problems he proposed would arise should substantial burst nerfs take place.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’ve disagreed with Daays in the past, but it’s really disappointing to see him make very logical arguments, only to see the responses wax emotional and dodge the problems he proposed would arise should substantial burst nerfs take place.

bunker nerfs were included as well, apparently you and daays both suffer from selective reading comprehension. you pick and choose what to ignore.