Guild Wars 2

Malchior.5732:

Vornollo.5182:

Malchior.5732:

Vornollo.5182:

However, comparing Rev’s AA to Thief’s AA… Rev is MUCH more sustainable then a Thief. so it’s a ridiculous comparison to make.
So is Thief Dagger/Staff damage overtuned? Yes.
Should Thief damage be compared to Rev? No.

You also have to consider that Thief:
1. Is much more mobile.They can chase really well and also escape really well, while Revenants are more committed to fights.
2. Has instant CC/Utility in the form of Steal which can close the gap, stun, steal boons (like Stab), etc.
3. Is not quite as susceptible to Conditions while a Revenant has pretty much no options unless they use Mallyx, which will get annihilated by Necros.
4. They can equip as much defense (Stun breaks, escapes, whatever) as they want while a Revenant kinda only has Riposting Shadows or Gaze of Darkness, of which, only the former actually gets you out of danger and helps keep you out.
I.E. Thief has options; Revenant has set kits with little choice.
5. Thieves actually have a lot more tools (some spammable) to stay on top of a target AND soft-CC them multiple times.

So, despite being squishier during a fight, they’re also much more mobile, have more options, and have even more tools for sticking to a target while using soft-CC. On top of that, they now deal more AA damage, which shouldn’t be underestimated by any means. Yea, you wont have a Thief just casually walking up to you and AAing you to death, but he will jump on you from far away, backstab you, then beat you to a pulp while you try to recover. This isn’t difficult to do as a Thief. Squishies and roamers will die.

So what you’re pointing out is that Thieves can leave a fight easier then a Rev can?
Great! Means you don’t got to worry about our admittedly OP AA spam.

Yes, we got tools, but so do revs… The entire point I made is that while I agree with Thief’s Dagger and Staff AA being overtuned, a Thief simply cannot be compared to a Revenant.

I don’t know how you made that correlation. If anything, it means a Thief can escape, reset, and come back before you can properly recover and just wreck you with their autos just the same.

The entire point is that they CAN be compared because they’re trying to pull off similar roles: singling out a target and just wrecking them.

However, one of them got their auto nerfed by quite a decent amount (even though we use Energy on ALL skills except AA and we actually have poor Spike potential outside of lolHammer) and the other got their auto buffed by a ton (even though they only use their “Energy” on weapon skills and have ways to regain it faster and MUCH higher Spike damage).

It’s a pretty weird idea of balance on Anet’s part.

Ok, then let’s look at your higher armor, healthpool, boons such as Stability, Protection, Might, Quickness and all that other good stuff that you got solid access to.
And be fairabout the fact that Thief’s Condi Cleanse is not good at all (and we suffer more from condi since our healthpool is lower). We also don’t get as much healing, blocking and so on and so forth.

They’re 2 different classes with different roles.
So no, you can’t exactly compare them that easily.
Anyhow I’ll just say it again because it doesn’t seem to sink in: Yes, I agree that Dagger and Staff AA’s are way overtuned. They could’ve done with half the buf they got (or even without it really) and I’d rather have seen they actually fixed core Thief issues instead. But hey, not going to say no to a buff.

Malchior.5732:

Nocta.5274:

Ehecatl.9172:

Thieves also have an advantage in that their burst isn’t mitigated by the mere presence of other targets.

That is a really weird design choice to me. Sword is meant to be the single target burst weapon, but both it’s damage spike attacks will divide that damage across multiple targets if they are too close.

How is that weird ? You’re punished for using it in fights including more than one target, that’s totally fitting the design of making it an assassination weapon.

That wouldn’t be so bad if the weapon could actually separate players, but it can’t!
Thief can jump into a crowd and spike someone down. It might not always be a good idea, but they can do it at full strength, regardless of fighting a Ranger, Mesmer, Minion Mancer, 2v2, 1v2, 3v3, etc.

The base idea was using sword OH for the pull to do that. Sword OH ended up being kitten but heh.
Also in big fights its not like sword is useless, auto attack still does incredible pressure.

Thief is not doing 6k dps auto attacking. First off, going off the numbers posted earlier:

1477+1354+2874+3849 = 9554 damage. it takes about 2.4 seconds to do a full auto chain giving you a little less than 4k dps.

On top of that, these numbers are all crits so they all benefit from the +250 ferocity trait. Which, btw is in the CS tree, which is our highest damage tree.

CS is not taken in pvp. Since damage is literally all it provides and thief can’t afford to not take trickery. so you can subtract 15-20% damage from those numbers.

Devs decided to make thief high risk high reward, we die easily to aoe, but as a trade off we get damage.

Also, thieves, the reason they buffed AA was probably primarily aimed at pve since we don’t bring other utility, devs wanted us to be top dps.

To others, if a thief is getting multiple AA chains on you, it’s because you’re ignoring them. Trust me, you’ll rarely see a full AA chain if they’re your target.

Thats what I’m realizing, but I wish they just worked on initiative and abilities instead of autos. Minus Sword, my god that needed the love it was given. Its finally competitive and fills the theme.

If you can trigger full AA chains on a glass cannon in PVP, your opponents are terrible and deserve that damage.

Vornollo.5182:

Malchior.5732:

Vornollo.5182:

Malchior.5732:

Vornollo.5182:

However, comparing Rev’s AA to Thief’s AA… Rev is MUCH more sustainable then a Thief. so it’s a ridiculous comparison to make.
So is Thief Dagger/Staff damage overtuned? Yes.
Should Thief damage be compared to Rev? No.

You also have to consider that Thief:
1. Is much more mobile.They can chase really well and also escape really well, while Revenants are more committed to fights.
2. Has instant CC/Utility in the form of Steal which can close the gap, stun, steal boons (like Stab), etc.
3. Is not quite as susceptible to Conditions while a Revenant has pretty much no options unless they use Mallyx, which will get annihilated by Necros.
4. They can equip as much defense (Stun breaks, escapes, whatever) as they want while a Revenant kinda only has Riposting Shadows or Gaze of Darkness, of which, only the former actually gets you out of danger and helps keep you out.
I.E. Thief has options; Revenant has set kits with little choice.
5. Thieves actually have a lot more tools (some spammable) to stay on top of a target AND soft-CC them multiple times.

So, despite being squishier during a fight, they’re also much more mobile, have more options, and have even more tools for sticking to a target while using soft-CC. On top of that, they now deal more AA damage, which shouldn’t be underestimated by any means. Yea, you wont have a Thief just casually walking up to you and AAing you to death, but he will jump on you from far away, backstab you, then beat you to a pulp while you try to recover. This isn’t difficult to do as a Thief. Squishies and roamers will die.

So what you’re pointing out is that Thieves can leave a fight easier then a Rev can?
Great! Means you don’t got to worry about our admittedly OP AA spam.

Yes, we got tools, but so do revs… The entire point I made is that while I agree with Thief’s Dagger and Staff AA being overtuned, a Thief simply cannot be compared to a Revenant.

I don’t know how you made that correlation. If anything, it means a Thief can escape, reset, and come back before you can properly recover and just wreck you with their autos just the same.

The entire point is that they CAN be compared because they’re trying to pull off similar roles: singling out a target and just wrecking them.

However, one of them got their auto nerfed by quite a decent amount (even though we use Energy on ALL skills except AA and we actually have poor Spike potential outside of lolHammer) and the other got their auto buffed by a ton (even though they only use their “Energy” on weapon skills and have ways to regain it faster and MUCH higher Spike damage).

It’s a pretty weird idea of balance on Anet’s part.

Ok, then let’s look at your higher armor, healthpool, boons such as Stability, Protection, Might, Quickness and all that other good stuff that you got solid access to.
And be fairabout the fact that Thief’s Condi Cleanse is not good at all (and we suffer more from condi since our healthpool is lower). We also don’t get as much healing, blocking and so on and so forth.

They’re 2 different classes with different roles.
So no, you can’t exactly compare them that easily.
Anyhow I’ll just say it again because it doesn’t seem to sink in: Yes, I agree that Dagger and Staff AA’s are way overtuned. They could’ve done with half the buf they got (or even without it really) and I’d rather have seen they actually fixed core Thief issues instead. But hey, not going to say no to a buff.

Stab? Sure, but with no Vigor and that new ICD, and being forced into 2x trait lines to even make it worthwhile, and with Corruption Necros, it’s not quite an unstoppable force.
Doesn’t help that we have a small amount of Stun Breaks.

Might? You have that too.
Quickness? Only in Shiro and probably only used for when you’re going to sit there and Auto-Attack or attempt to not get bogged down by snares.

Protection? Only good amounts in Glint and only if they leave the facet activated, which is quite a good chunk of energy.

Condition cleasing on Thief isn’t good, but it’s a hell of a lot better than what Revenants have.

Blocks, higher health pool, heavy armor, and better healing is pretty much required if you’re going to have a class that can barely run away, has a giant weakness to conditions and has a glaring one against CC.
Thief obviously tries to make up the lack of those with MUCH better mobility, spammable Evades, Soft-CCs, high spike damage, Steal, etc.

The point is that: Yes, they can be compared. They’re different classes and behave differently, but that doesn’t change the fact that they’re both trying to jump on a target and trying to wreck it and that their Auto-attacks contribute a lot to that, especially the Revenant’s. Speaking mostly Power Rev, of course.

The problem comes from Anet nerfing one class’ auto-attacks, but then buffing another class’ dramatically, one that has better mobility, can reset better, etc.
It makes no sense.

Nocta.5274:

How is that weird ? You’re punished for using it in fights including more than one target, that’s totally fitting the design of making it an assassination weapon.

Like a poster above said, it wouldn’t be a problem if the weapon had the tools needed to separate someone from the herd. Unfortunately the sword doesn’t. The closest it has is offhand sword’s Grasping Shadow, but that only pulls someone back 600 range, and you have no skills to lock someone down in order to unload your burst aside from Shiro’s elite.

It also becomes a huge issue when you go up against rangers, mesmers, and minion necromancers. That’s two professions that can accidentally neuter your burst rotation and a third that can build for it.

Thieves don’t have that problem. It makes them far more efficient as a +1 assassin because they can unload their burst on anyone anywhere at any time, where as the Revenant needs very specific conditions to unload theirs.

This is EVEN WEIRDER when you remember Anet originally intended Revenants to only have one weapon set. What? Did they just expect Shiro Revenants to never fight more than one person (who isn’t a ranger or mesmer) at once?

Personally I feel Revenants would be in a better place if Unrelenting Assault was single target. It’s ability to hit multiple targets in such a wide area is nothing but a handicap.

Everyone who have problems with thief AA (lol) please L2P

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

If you don’t want an instant gib, run something that isnt +0 toughness or vit? This time the burden of controlling the length of the fight is majorly on you, instead of hoping the other person hasnt turtleshelled their build.

lol have you even played thief? It is not like other classes. Sacrificing DPS for vitality or toughness is pointless when you are only delaying your death by a few more seconds. We don’t have the heals that eles and guards have. To survive we rely on evasion, stealth and mobility to not get hit. Then bursting down foe before they have a chance to hit back. Not getting hit is how we stay alive, building pointless defensive specs is how you get dead.

I have no other problems staying alive against other classes (except necro now even more OP too), but other thieves are now a problem due to the huge buff to dagger AA damage, because it is dealt in less than 2 seconds, which is easy for us thieves to pull off when used with Basilik Venom. So whoever gets first hit wins. BV + backstab + 11111 = dead. That can happen to ele’s and guards too btw.

To be clear: thief dagger AA is now grossly OP. I am a thief and I want it reverted back to what it was before. The QQ has already started (justifiably I would say) and aNet is undoubtedly going to nerf us somewhere else that we really do not want nerfed.

My fellow thieves who know the history should realize this and ask for it to be reverted as well.

Or you can completely miss the point that running something that isnt full glass gives you a split second to react in and solves your issue of getting instantly melted by another glass spec that sees you first and go off on a tangent.

That works too. Obviously if you accepted the fact that you can insta die, glass would suit you fine, but apparently that is not the case for you.

I’m not even going to touch how silly asking for a reversion of less than 100 points of base damage for an auto attack chain, on the grounds that it’s OP, is.

The issue isn’t that I can be insta-downed. I’ve already stated I’m always 2-3 hits away from being downed from full health, less than full health and i can be downed in one hit. I’ve been operating in that scenario for quite a while and winning fights much more often that losing so I am perfectly fine with it, I have absolutely no problem with playing glass canon.

If you actually played thief you’d know that there is no reaction to getting Basi Venom’d from stealth and / or steal. But I think you do know that, and I think you are trying to sidestep that fact because you don’t want to admit you are obviously wrong.

You are also clearly ignoring the point i’m making, which is that an auto autoattack chain is now so OP that it can easily down people with no chance to fight back due to being coupled with Basi Venom. So this is my last response to you since you are not refuting the actual issue, instead sidestepping the issue trying to claim there’s nothing wrong with the dagger AA boost and people just need to l2p.

Rome.7124:

good job anet:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/42wokp/thief_after_126_balance_patch_d/

Why do you keep posting pve video?

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

-snip because addressed-

If you actually played thief you’d know that there is no reaction to getting Basi Venom’d from stealth and / or steal. But I think you do know that, and I think you are trying to sidestep that fact because you don’t want to admit you are obviously wrong.

???

Every stunbreak ever?

You can certainly react to basi before having to sit through a whole auto attack chain.

Can someone explain what this person means, since he has his figurative hands over his ears now?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

-snip because addressed-

If you actually played thief you’d know that there is no reaction to getting Basi Venom’d from stealth and / or steal. But I think you do know that, and I think you are trying to sidestep that fact because you don’t want to admit you are obviously wrong.

???

Every stunbreak ever?

You can certainly react to basi before having to sit through a whole auto attack chain.

Can someone explain what this person means, since he has his figurative hands over his ears now?

React time on sneaky attack and use stun break is +- 1.5 sec, when you use stun break you are allready imobil becaose -50% Hp, now you must use skill on condition cleanse ( next 3/4-1s react time) -> you are death right now.

Your advice to someone using the stun break is quite ridiculous in this situation.

Evilek.5690:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

-snip because addressed-

If you actually played thief you’d know that there is no reaction to getting Basi Venom’d from stealth and / or steal. But I think you do know that, and I think you are trying to sidestep that fact because you don’t want to admit you are obviously wrong.

???

Every stunbreak ever?

You can certainly react to basi before having to sit through a whole auto attack chain.

Can someone explain what this person means, since he has his figurative hands over his ears now?

React time on sneaky attack and use stun break is +- 1.5 sec, when you use stun break you are allready imobil becaose -50% Hp, now you must use skill on condition cleanse ( next 3/4-1s react time) -> you are death right now.

Your advice to someone using the stun break is quite ridiculous in this situation.

It think it’s time to grab a few friends and practice hitting your stun breaks really fast. Seriously go do that now plz

Azukas.1426:

Evilek.5690:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

-snip because addressed-

If you actually played thief you’d know that there is no reaction to getting Basi Venom’d from stealth and / or steal. But I think you do know that, and I think you are trying to sidestep that fact because you don’t want to admit you are obviously wrong.

???

Every stunbreak ever?

You can certainly react to basi before having to sit through a whole auto attack chain.

Can someone explain what this person means, since he has his figurative hands over his ears now?

React time on sneaky attack and use stun break is +- 1.5 sec, when you use stun break you are allready imobil becaose -50% Hp, now you must use skill on condition cleanse ( next 3/4-1s react time) -> you are death right now.

Your advice to someone using the stun break is quite ridiculous in this situation.

It think it’s time to grab a few friends and practice hitting your stun breaks really fast. Seriously go do that now plz

Ofc i need practice with my Thief Maybe start use your head and stop defending broken AA boost. Same people like you defending broken DMG on Rangers pets

While i see thief got seriously buffed, i as ele rarely get dowend from a thief out of stealth. I have more problems catching them. But i agree i am not playing meta builds that will die to a thief. The funniest moment was a thief backstabing me in the following situation:
I had been in eath attuenement. He stabed me in the back with basi venom:
The result: My gale song triggered and my nightmare rune triggered. As reflex i fired feel the burn.

I got 1 hit lower then 1k (glancing blow) and the aura shout healed me back … + Superspeed + might (Traited tempestous aria)

He got: 1k crit form feel the burn, 2 burning stacks, blinded, feared, weakened, tormented + his posion thrown back (I use torment + generosity with rabid)

He just disengaged …..
Shure was wvw and a bit lucky situation but funny.

Evilek.5690:

React time on sneaky attack and use stun break is +- 1.5 sec

1.5s is a really really really slow reaction time. You should seriously practice that.

Evilek.5690:

I have one question. Who test this patche before release ?

Revenant with full berserker gear and full DPS build vs Thief with same armor/traits.

Thief

Dagger AA DPS – 6k!!!!!
Sword AA DPS – 4.6k
Staff AA DPS 4.7k

Revenant

Sword AA DPS 3.2k !!!

I didnt bother reading more comments because it is an absolute joke to aruge with a class that can generate up to 10 secs quickness and has a kittenton of other skills which makes it completely useless to compare AAs with each other.

Evilek.5690:

Azukas.1426:

Evilek.5690:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

-snip because addressed-

If you actually played thief you’d know that there is no reaction to getting Basi Venom’d from stealth and / or steal. But I think you do know that, and I think you are trying to sidestep that fact because you don’t want to admit you are obviously wrong.

???

Every stunbreak ever?

You can certainly react to basi before having to sit through a whole auto attack chain.

Can someone explain what this person means, since he has his figurative hands over his ears now?

React time on sneaky attack and use stun break is +- 1.5 sec, when you use stun break you are allready imobil becaose -50% Hp, now you must use skill on condition cleanse ( next 3/4-1s react time) -> you are death right now.

Your advice to someone using the stun break is quite ridiculous in this situation.

It think it’s time to grab a few friends and practice hitting your stun breaks really fast. Seriously go do that now plz

Ofc i need practice with my Thief Maybe start use your head and stop defending broken AA boost. Same people like you defending broken DMG on Rangers pets

thats just sad on ur part

i can assist u and will volunteer to basi u over and over

SuperduperMLGbsns.9345:

Evilek.5690:

I have one question. Who test this patche before release ?

Revenant with full berserker gear and full DPS build vs Thief with same armor/traits.

Thief

Dagger AA DPS – 6k!!!!!
Sword AA DPS – 4.6k
Staff AA DPS 4.7k

Revenant

Sword AA DPS 3.2k !!!

I didnt bother reading more comments because it is an absolute joke to aruge with a class that can generate up to 10 secs quickness and has a kittenton of other skills which makes it completely useless to compare AAs with each other.

Apparently it’s not ridiculous or completely useless because a Thief, literally just pressing 1, will do the same or more damage as Revenant in the same gear that maximizes his damage via actual rotations and has a full set of Boons (I.E. max damage). Realistic? Well, no one was standing still on any auto-attacks, but they still saw it fit to nerf Revenant’s and dramatically buff the Thief’s and the Thief will still out-damage the Revenant with them in any semi-equal setting.

Malchior.5732:

SuperduperMLGbsns.9345:

Evilek.5690:

I have one question. Who test this patche before release ?

Revenant with full berserker gear and full DPS build vs Thief with same armor/traits.

Thief

Dagger AA DPS – 6k!!!!!
Sword AA DPS – 4.6k
Staff AA DPS 4.7k

Revenant

Sword AA DPS 3.2k !!!

I didnt bother reading more comments because it is an absolute joke to aruge with a class that can generate up to 10 secs quickness and has a kittenton of other skills which makes it completely useless to compare AAs with each other.

Apparently it’s not ridiculous or completely useless because a Thief, literally just pressing 1, will do the same or more damage as Revenant in the same gear that maximizes his damage via actual rotations and has a full set of Boons (I.E. max damage). Realistic? Well, no one was standing still on any auto-attacks, but they still saw it fit to nerf Revenant’s and dramatically buff the Thief’s and the Thief will still out-damage the Revenant with them in any semi-equal setting.

There are few reasons why they buffed Thiefs auto I may not agree with them but, here they are, they wanted thief to be extremely dangerous and mobile, also Rev AA was nerfed due to them having more support and sustain than Thieves, yes Thieves have higher mobility but they were not able to sit on points and keep fully engaged in the fight as Rev was, which a lot of people seem to misunderstand survivability /= sustain yes thieves can run away to survive but that’s most times in favor of the opponent.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Malchior.5732:

SuperduperMLGbsns.9345:

Evilek.5690:

I have one question. Who test this patche before release ?

Revenant with full berserker gear and full DPS build vs Thief with same armor/traits.

Thief

Dagger AA DPS – 6k!!!!!
Sword AA DPS – 4.6k
Staff AA DPS 4.7k

Revenant

Sword AA DPS 3.2k !!!

I didnt bother reading more comments because it is an absolute joke to aruge with a class that can generate up to 10 secs quickness and has a kittenton of other skills which makes it completely useless to compare AAs with each other.

Apparently it’s not ridiculous or completely useless because a Thief, literally just pressing 1, will do the same or more damage as Revenant in the same gear that maximizes his damage via actual rotations and has a full set of Boons (I.E. max damage). Realistic? Well, no one was standing still on any auto-attacks, but they still saw it fit to nerf Revenant’s and dramatically buff the Thief’s and the Thief will still out-damage the Revenant with them in any semi-equal setting.

There are few reasons why they buffed Thiefs auto I may not agree with them but, here they are, they wanted thief to be extremely dangerous and mobile, also Rev AA was nerfed due to them having more support and sustain than Thieves, yes Thieves have higher mobility but they were not able to sit on points and keep fully engaged in the fight as Rev was, which a lot of people seem to misunderstand survivability /= sustain yes thieves can run away to survive but that’s most times in favor of the opponent.

The Revenant has no other high-damage options. Sword is the only real DPS weapon and since every other skill (including Utilities) costs Energy, the Auto-Attack needs to be pretty good. Then consider how weak Revenant is to Conditions and that they really don’t have many stun breaks.
Then consider that a Thief’s role isn’t really to sit on a point, but rather to be mobile, run around, and help around in fights. Thief has so much more mobility (both chasing and escaping; Revenants lack the latter and are nerfed in the former), doesn’t instantly lose to soft-CC spam if they get caught, have far more options in utility, have a ton of evades as well, can stealth, etc.
The whole escaping thing doesn’t even matter as much in Stronghold or WvW or when not sitting on a point (actually, imagine a Thief that could sit on a point really well combined with their ridiculous mobility; I don’t think that would be a great idea).

It literally makes no sense to nerf one class due to its strong autos and then buff another to the same (or higher) amount of damage when that class can move around so much more and has far better spike damage and control to begin with.

If they wanted to improve Thieves in PvE, they needed to give them some sort of unique ability/trait/utility to make them wanted.
If they wanted to improve Thieves in PvP, all they needed to do was nerf everything else (which they mostly did).

I agree, I think staff and dagger AA buff was not called for. Mainly I view it as a bandaid for Raid content and not as they stated for the pvp balance.

I’ll just leave this here. For the record, I don’t mind if Rev gets a slight boost, staff AA a slight nerf, and a small amount of the dagger AA damage moved to CnD. Overall though, it’s really not as bad as (some) people seem to be saying.

Edit: parentheses to avoid kittens.