Guild Wars 2

Here is a list of things that you should nerf:

1, Dhumfire – icd
2, Doom – duration
3, Signet of Spite – duration
4, Healing signet – heal
5, staggering blow – cast time
6, Automated response – 90% not 100%
7, Healing turret – cast time
8, Zerker stance – 90% not 100%
9, pin down – bleeds
10, combustive shot + cleansing Ire – radius
11, Spirit of nature – health pool
12, spirit of sun – passive proc
13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight
14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown
17, mark of blood – 1 less bleed
18, necro scepter auto attack – lowered durations
19, emphatic bond – 20 second icd
20, critical infusion – 15s icd
21, incendiary power – 20s icd
22, Lyssa runes – 60s icd

I am sure there is more. But this would be a good start.

The logic would be to reverse the power creep which made everyone quit, and to actually add skill and FUN back to the game by not having as many builds which are frustrating to fight against because of passive bs or because of uncounterable things like cc chains, mass evasion and Ai spam.

Problem = most of this stuff is things you actually buffed. So you need to have the guts to admit you made mistakes and reverse alot of these changes.

Almost an Exact carbon copy of what its like in the League of Legends forums, dont even get me started with the Sc2 forums.

OMG TERRAN OP PLS NERF

Wtf? Nerfing S\D so much would destroy the thief class . Maybe you want all thieves to go D\D free kill suicide mode? They should just redisign alot of things in this game that are a complete disaster . You also forgot necro’s death shroud duration is ridiculous .

a t s e.9614:

Wtf? Nerfing S\D so much would destroy the thief class . Maybe you want all thieves to go D\D free kill suicide mode? They should just redisign alot of things in this game that are a complete disaster . You also forgot necro’s death shroud duration is ridiculous .

the OP cant deal with it, therefore needs a nerf, makes sense right?

a t s e.9614:

They should just redisign alot of things in this game that are a complete disaster

Yes.
If the devs could, I would love them.
But they have only shown that they can struggle to work through minor number swaps and tweaks.

S/d is still broken as kitten. Not so much complaints cause warriors seem to be more in taste now.

Agree with almost all of these, especially #11 and #12.

AOE spam, Condition spam, and Immob stacking; IMO they all lowered the skill cap. Please ANET, make the game less spammy, more skill, and more fun.

you forgot :

protection – 15-20% all damage sources

engies : Incendiary Powder – 3 seconds

and just remove hard resses from the game honestly

Seems some of these requests do cut a very fine line between wise/unwise..but all in all I find myself agreeing with it on paper provide it is implemented fairly.

u know that when u nerf
Dhumfire
Doom
Signet of Spite
mark of blood
necro scepter auto attack

at the same time necro will be dead , it will be free kill , u cant nerf so many things on one class at the same time

a t s e.9614:

Wtf? Nerfing S\D so much would destroy the thief class . Maybe you want all thieves to go D\D free kill suicide mode? They should just redisign alot of things in this game that are a complete disaster . You also forgot necro’s death shroud duration is ridiculous .

Oh yeah and nerf DS LOL just nerf necro to the ground , idk from where u camed withidea that DS duration is too long ???

Have u played necro ever? Do u know that necro is the only class in whole game that dont have any defensive wepon skills and no defensive utilitis , do u know how hard is to survive as a necro especialy when u are the main target always and u know why becouse u are the easiest target in the game.

Realy ppl 1st u need to understand the class not by facing the class but playing it and ofc i mean competetive way , 2nd dont try to nerf everyting in the same time becouse its not gonna work it will make only class useless. For example i was playing soloq on my necro and i killed one guy 3 or 4 times and whisper me that i am playing noob class with condi spam and that all i can do , just spam conditions , the thing was that i was playing on power necro with mele wepons , then that kinda guy is comming here , he makes tread and complain abut different things that in his opinion are OP but in real they balanced.

Krafty.9758:

SpehssMehreen.5897:

a t s e.9614:

Wtf? Nerfing S\D so much would destroy the thief class . Maybe you want all thieves to go D\D free kill suicide mode? They should just redisign alot of things in this game that are a complete disaster . You also forgot necro’s death shroud duration is ridiculous .

the OP cant deal with it, therefore needs a nerf, makes sense right?

So you can deal with it, therefore it does not need a nerf? Makes sense right?

Exactly, thank goodness not everyone here is a scrub

Take slow steps forward when nerfing and then observe how it impacts the overall meta. But at least do something...I know ANet is being careful, but there’s a limit to that. People are leaving PvP at a rather alarming rate.

Also instead of moving forward, only sideways steps have been taken so far regarding most of the things that are plaguing PvP for a very long time.

I’m just going to list one of the many examples of getting nowhere with sideways steps: Thanks for buffing Ele conjures and staff. But neither of those was even REMOTELY relevant to the issues that class is facing in SPvP:
1) Having only ~10-20 loose trait points after being forced into 30 Arcane + 10-20 Water
2) Being forced to tale Cantrips (with ridiculously long cooldownss on the cantrips themselves) in order to avoid dying in a single stun, immob, knockdown or fear. All other slot skills might as well not be there.
3) The only other option is to play Fresh Air kamikaze builds, but (unlike Thieves and Mesmers) have no reliable escape/evasion and simply get exploded the moment anyone looks at them funny or catches them in a single CC with cantrips on cooldown.
4) This is all made even worse thanks to the class requiring by far the most skill to play, with 20 abilities + 4 attunements resulting in TWO LAYERS of cooldowns. All other classes can put out just as much damage, survivability and utility with ~3-5 weapon skills.

Forsaker.9213:

u know that when u nerf
Dhumfire
Doom
Signet of Spite
mark of blood
necro scepter auto attack

at the same time necro will be dead , it will be free kill , u cant nerf so many things on one class at the same time

Forsaker Forsaker Forsaker! You among many others who have come back to the necromancer after they over buffed the profession seem really clueless about what the necromancer was capable of doing before dhuumfire and other buffs were introduced and implemented.

I can understand why you do not want these things nerfed because you would have to find something else to play to be effective unless you really wanted to improve as a player.

Right now it is way too easy to be effective with the necromancer by
spamming abilities without thinking about the consequences. Any good player wants to win because they defeated their opponent with balanced rather than broken class mechanics.

So i totally agree with Duke (Lord Rosicky) on nerfing the skills/abilities/traits mentioned in this threads main post.

i dont mind nerfing some things on necro but only with small steps , i woud like to dont have buring at all , but again if u nerf smt plz at leat give as some fix like bug since realese that u can interupt marks and they are going full cd?! I know what necro was able to do before patch and i always thougt that necro is the one well balanced class but the problem was that they were buffing other class what maked necro usless and again we have smt like power creep

Necro was never useless before the dumbfire patch! It just required more skill, team coordination and setup to make it viable. Setups with 2 ele’s and a bunker guardian was the hardest counter, but anything else than that was completely manageable.

Problem with necro before patch was that engi was doing same job but much better , engi had better sustain , better mobility thast way ppl switched necro – > engi in teams , it was just better especialy when u had dd thiefs , dps eles , shatter mesmers , necro was really hard focused in my opinion removing burning and fixing few things will be good start.

the most imprtant thing atm is taht they need to start nerfing every class i mean every even those that are not good in current meta like ele making 15k-25k insta burst , it shoudnt exist , its all about power creep , they are buffing one class so ppl say my class compare to that is crap so devs buff other class and we have this since start i dont get it Anet big company should have ppl to deal with that kind of stuff but atm i feel like they dont have any ideas how to improve PvP so they are focuse on PvE and ofc WvW as we can see probaly soon we gonna have some leagues and turnaments for WvW its realy sad that basicly one aspect of the game and ppl who are comited are just ignored becouse i feel exacly like that.

Ppl on this forum have so many ideas , ofc we cant get everything in 1 patch but if devs could focus for lets say next 4-6 months to tone down everything that right now make game realy not fun we could make some progress. The other problem is that we have balance patch every 1-2-3 months? Realy i playied some games and we should have some fix/balance patch every 2-3 weeks to actualy find some good balance , small changes every 2 weeks would be awsome.

Anet need to figure how to fix that , making class vaible and fun to play but at the same time not OP , and djooce u can see my other posts and i fully agree with the necro nerfs the thing is that i dont want to get my class that i love to play nerfed to the ground , i posted a lot of changes for necro that would tone down the dmg and at the same time necro would be still good class to play.

sorry forsaker but i agree with djooce here…you know ventari maybe? we used to play necro before the big buff and it worked out pretty well it just took him as much skill as it takes me and others to play mesmer atm
you just had to play really well and there was no place to waste any skills in wrong moments etc

with the necro before the buff ventari also used to win against most people in duels and was a great help in teamfights as well..also he played power necro before (was it meta?- no was it op?- no) it just took skill and made fun but now he is forced to play condition necro since it is impossible to win with power necro against a condition necro team (why is that?- because some classes are just obligatory to have in a team since you will always have a disadvantage against teams using these classes otherwise)

Of course other classes would need a nerf as well in order to keep necro being viable

did i say i dont agree with OP?? i fully agree with those nerfs but all of this need to have synergy like necro scepter auto attack – lowered durations + Automated response – 90% not 100% + Zerker stance – 90% not 100% it looks realy good , and i playied necro before patch and i know that it was realy good the problem was that buffing other class pushed necro in the lowest tier so basicly i was forced to play smt else to be able to play in competetive team , Senso and when i started to play in my 1st competetive team as a necro i playied power and it worked realy good but then devs started to buff eveything and basicly no changes for necro but its was the best balanced class in game so guys i think i made my 1st post wrong its like i agree with all of that and sully upport nerfing basicly every class so we are on the same side :P

Lordrosicky.5813:

14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike

This is one of the worst ideas i have ever seen. What would be the point of the skill at all? Here is the maths straight from the wiki:

Flanking Strike:
Damage: 252(0.75) Evade: 1/2s Initiative cost: 3 Cast time: .5s

Slice:
Damage: 269(0.8) Evade: 0s Initiative cost: 0 Cast time: 0s

You want to remove kitten evade off of a skill that does less damage than the first hit of the auto, costs 3 initiative, and has kitten cast time? Would there be any point of ever using that skill? The only thing flanking strike would be doing is slowing down the use of larcenous strike. You would be essentially giving L-strike another .5s on the cast time and increase the initiative cost by 3. S/D is probably already a dying set. It doesn’t bring all that much to a tourney team that you can’t accomplish with another profession or a D/P thief.

Lol. If you are removing evasion from S/D then Larcenous Strike’s nerfs need to be reverted back.

Don’t nerf doom’s duration. Give doom a half second cast time where the overhead animation appears above right as the cast starts. This would make it counterplayable.

Why not introduce a 3rd attack in the string between flanking and larcenous. Could be a mild enough nerf.

Nerf everything to hell. I want to 1111111 olny with wooden stick.

Yes, let’s just nerf everything. That is how you fix the game! /sigh

Lordrosicky.5813:

Here is a list of things that you should nerf:

13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight

Thieves rely on mobility to remain relevant – please get used to it.

14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown

You know what sounds fair? Take the class that relies on evades almost exclusively to mitigate damage and kill their evades.
Why bother with 3 separate points when you could have typed “Lawl, delete thief”.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Here is a list of things that you should nerf:
13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight
14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown

13. Agreed, but only if the range is dramatically increased and shadow stepping is fixed so that you don’t get caught on a pebble. If it were nerfed, it would be changed to how shadow steps work, and that’s exactly what happens to shadow step.
14. Yeah, no, #3 having evade is a part of 4/6 of the Thief weapon sets, and nobody spams Flanking Strike just for the evade any more. The double S/D build died months ago. The evasion on FS is the only thing letting Thieves help in team fights.
15. You’ve got to be kidding me, that’s just insane. The Thief class is supposed to be the most evasive, and you want to completely destroy its most evasive trait? No thanks, if it was to be nerfed then a 2s ICD at MOST would suffice just fine, and even that is severe.
16. It already has a 60s CD, lmao.

Seriously OP, I would be willing to bet that you don’t even play half of the professions if your Thief suggestions are anything to go by, lol.

SpehssMehreen.5897:

a t s e.9614:

Wtf? Nerfing S\D so much would destroy the thief class . Maybe you want all thieves to go D\D free kill suicide mode? They should just redisign alot of things in this game that are a complete disaster . You also forgot necro’s death shroud duration is ridiculous .

the OP cant deal with it, therefore needs a nerf, makes sense right?

I have 4 accounts (some free trial), with a 70% win rate in solo q over about 500-550 games. Have had 3 accounts in the top 50 at times before decay. So I can deal with it. But I dont want to. Because it is lame. If you want to tell me to l2p then prove your individual skill and go and win 70% of your solo q games (at high rating) over 500 games then come back.

Forsaker.9213:

i dont mind nerfing some things on necro but only with small steps , i woud like to dont have buring at all , but again if u nerf smt plz at leat give as some fix like bug since realese that u can interupt marks and they are going full cd?! I know what necro was able to do before patch and i always thougt that necro is the one well balanced class but the problem was that they were buffing other class what maked necro usless and again we have smt like power creep

Other stuff would need to be nerfed with the necro of course. And they could do it gradually to avoid disasters. And maybe some of these nerfs are too much. Maybe 2-3 for each of the classes would be sufficient.

Lordrosicky.5813:

SpehssMehreen.5897:

a t s e.9614:

Wtf? Nerfing S\D so much would destroy the thief class . Maybe you want all thieves to go D\D free kill suicide mode? They should just redisign alot of things in this game that are a complete disaster . You also forgot necro’s death shroud duration is ridiculous .

the OP cant deal with it, therefore needs a nerf, makes sense right?

I have 4 accounts (some free trial), with a 70% win rate in solo q over about 500-550 games. Have had 3 accounts in the top 50 at times before decay. So I can deal with it. But I dont want to. Because it is lame. If you want to tell me to l2p then prove your individual skill and go and win 70% of your solo q games (at high rating) over 500 games then come back.

I don’t see how this makes more qualified than other players when it comes to balance. Your thief changes are pretty ridiculous for tpvp. Thieves have the lowest health and middle tier armor, so if you nerf evades how will thieves avoid damage? Thieves rely on avoidance vs mitigation. We have no access to protection, our only stability is 8s on dagger storm (90s cooldown), we don’t have blocking, we have 0 invulnerability skills, and the only decent passive heal we have only procs when you are stealthed, which means you cant contest a point, and it is only possible with 30 points into shadow arts (if you want long term regen you have to trait for initiative gain and spend time off point leaping through blind fields not helping your team at all). Blinds are a reasonable defense mechanism, but are only reliable on x/p weaponsets (and currently D/P is the only high level viable x/p build). I think most people would agree thief is the squishiest class, so why take away what defenses it does have?

Lordrosicky.5813:

13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight
14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown

No.

NERF EVERYTHING! NERF IT NOW!

Instead of power creep lets have power slump…YEA BABY!

evilapprentice.6379:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Here is a list of things that you should nerf:

13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight

Thieves rely on mobility to remain relevant – please get used to it.

14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown

You know what sounds fair? Take the class that relies on evades almost exclusively to mitigate damage and kill their evades.
Why bother with 3 separate points when you could have typed “Lawl, delete thief”.

huh??
does it rely on mobility or on evades now?
imo with the stealth mechanic + evades + mobility i think a better way would be to make those “evade skills” a 50% chance to evade – for every evade skill ingame, which of course includes other classes – but evade itself stays as is

I do think a global shaving of classes would be great! But I think global shavings should be slow. Clearly stupid things should be reverted or nerfed on the fly none of this “we’ll wait 3 months and see if people adapt. Then nerf it’s hard counter and wait for more people to adapt.”

I think OP was more making a statement of what needs to be addressed with a suggestion. It’s a bit short sighted to go “he can’t deal with it!” Or “/gg more thief QQ with delete thief”

Personally I’m on bored with the necro and ranger related things.

But things like shadow refuge nerf. Yeah no. It’s a strong skill but it can be counter and predicted enough. It’s a great set up for assassination type plays but that’s what the class does. The current C/D is pretty fair.

As for FS – I think it’s pretty fine, but I think the reason why people hate on it so much is because it’s low risk with a lot of possibility for mash attached to it. So as a suggesting if things needed to change (though I’m in favor of keeping it) how about an initiative related nerf? It means the skill becomes more of a tactical play and less of a easy escape.

Nerf spirits, but buff something else.

The spirit build is one of the only specs rangers have.

Hedgehog in the fog.1053:

Nerf spirits, but buff something else.

The spirit build is one of the only specs rangers have.

BM roam is still viable. Even if not best for team fight. Counter roam and far assault with strong contest.

That being said power ranger needs a buff, but only if it’s squishy and reactive play like every other glass cannon

kito.1827:

evilapprentice.6379:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Here is a list of things that you should nerf:

13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight

Thieves rely on mobility to remain relevant – please get used to it.

14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown

You know what sounds fair? Take the class that relies on evades almost exclusively to mitigate damage and kill their evades.
Why bother with 3 separate points when you could have typed “Lawl, delete thief”.

huh??
does it rely on mobility or on evades now?
imo with the stealth mechanic + evades + mobility i think a better way would be to make those “evade skills” a 50% chance to evade – for every evade skill ingame, which of course includes other classes – but evade itself stays as is

It’s a combination of both – please feel free to roll one and try it out.

Daishi.6027:

Hedgehog in the fog.1053:

Nerf spirits, but buff something else.

The spirit build is one of the only specs rangers have.

BM roam is still viable. Even if not best for team fight. Counter roam and far assault with strong contest.

That being said power ranger needs a buff, but only if it’s squishy and reactive play like every other glass cannon

Based on how the ranger traits are set up, unless you go 30/30/10/0/0, and play a signet build, you will always invest in some utility (traps, spirits, etc) So, a power build would just be a viable LB/GS.

Rangers need some tweaks for PvE and PvP. Pets being first and foremost, some of their traits and weapons being seconds.

The only thing I wish about thieves (and rangers and mesmers) that all “invulnerabilities” on weapon-skills became small-frame “blocks” because currently the evade spams make unblockable a rather useless skillfact. (Leave dodge rolls the same).

Lol @ 13-16.
Back to Smite where I see less horse kitten balance from the community, and the devs are rather punctual with their balance.
Im still estimating 3-4 months before S/P being the worst set in-game gets remedied, maybe a year if OP has his way, and S/D can fall even lower then it did after the Nov nerfs last year. Viva diversity.
What a joke.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Here is a list of things that you should nerf:

1, Dhumfire – icd
2, Doom – duration
3, Signet of Spite – duration
4, Healing signet – heal
5, staggering blow – cast time
6, Automated response – 90% not 100%
7, Healing turret – cast time
8, Zerker stance – 90% not 100%
9, pin down – bleeds
10, combustive shot + cleansing Ire – radius
11, Spirit of nature – health pool
12, spirit of sun – passive proc
13, Inf Strike – not moving people to somewhere without line of sight
14, Larcenous strike – remove evasion from flanking strike
15, feline grace – add 10s icd
16, Shadows refuge – cooldown
17, mark of blood – 1 less bleed
18, necro scepter auto attack – lowered durations
19, emphatic bond – 20 second icd
20, critical infusion – 15s icd
21, incendiary power – 20s icd
22, Lyssa runes – 60s icd

I am sure there is more. But this would be a good start.

The logic would be to reverse the power creep which made everyone quit, and to actually add skill and FUN back to the game by not having as many builds which are frustrating to fight against because of passive bs or because of uncounterable things like cc chains, mass evasion and Ai spam.

Problem = most of this stuff is things you actually buffed. So you need to have the guts to admit you made mistakes and reverse alot of these changes.

Leave thief balance to someone who actually has any insight of the profession, instead of naming random skills asking for nerfs.

Regarding the rest, i pretty much agree with everything.

evilapprentice.6379:

It’s a combination of both – please feel free to roll one and try it out.

i did, and it feels ridiculous to play like the worst coward á la attack-hide-regen-reattack-hide…
so i never liked the play style and really hate those cowards – i still don’t think thieves should go because obviously many like it – but at the “s/d turning point” with all the evades it started to get disgusting.

thieves – like many others – got overlook because of the warrior QQs and as usual hide in their shadows ;p
i think the this change to evasion would be a good one

kito.1827:

evilapprentice.6379:

It’s a combination of both – please feel free to roll one and try it out.

i did, and it feels ridiculous to play like the worst coward á la attack-hide-regen-reattack-hide…
so i never liked the play style and really hate those cowards – i still don’t think thieves should go because obviously many like it – but at the “s/d turning point” with all the evades it started to get disgusting.

thieves – like many others – got overlook because of the warrior QQs and as usual hide in their shadows ;p
i think the this change to evasion would be a good one

Thats…how…they are designed…?

Completely agree with the list.

The power creep in this game is bad.

What’s worse is the prolific amount of conditions and the way they are constantly applied and spammed making condition removal a joke to try and manage.

And the fact that passive builds are so powerful right now while requiring little input because they offer so much damage for brainless auto-attack spam with condi builds.

kito.1827:

evilapprentice.6379:

It’s a combination of both – please feel free to roll one and try it out.

i did, and it feels ridiculous to play like the worst coward á la attack-hide-regen-reattack-hide…
so i never liked the play style and really hate those cowards – i still don’t think thieves should go because obviously many like it – but at the “s/d turning point” with all the evades it started to get disgusting.

thieves – like many others – got overlook because of the warrior QQs and as usual hide in their shadows ;p
i think the this change to evasion would be a good one

You’re very clearly letting emotion play a large role in your opinion here. You don’t really understand the need for the mechanic as it is, you just hate the way thief plays, and therefore everything they do is OP and needs to be nerfed. It’s not really a compelling argument, or a good way to look at balance objectively.

Ashanor.5319:

Yes, let’s just nerf everything. That is how you fix the game! /sigh

No. Lets buff everything like they’re doing right now, surely’s healthy to the game.. Look at the increase of the population ….. Oh wait.

Agree with everything @ OP, and even though it look like he’s giving a hard hit to thiefs, as he mentioned himself previously, those changes shouldn’t be all done at the same time, perhaps some changes/class with some small space gaps in between, while also looking at important ways to improve the UP part of the classes.

An idea to fix flanking-larcenous:

Remove chain aspect of this attach. Make flanking strike a stand alone attack that does minimal damage and steals 2 boons. Keep evade. increase initiative cost to 5.

You want evade and boon steal? You can have it but you can’t do damage at the same time. Damage/Utility/Defense – pick two you can’t have all three.

Kavia.8249:

An idea to fix flanking-larcenous:

Remove chain aspect of this attach. Make flanking strike a stand alone attack that does minimal damage and steals 2 boons. Keep evade. increase initiative cost to 5.

You want evade and boon steal? You can have it but you can’t do damage at the same time. Damage/Utility/Defense – pick two you can’t have all three.

The DPS of sword AA and FS->LS are roughly on par.

AA costs 0 init, and inflicts Weakness and Cripple.

FS->LS costs 5 init – it better do something special if it costs 5 init, does similiar DPS to AA, and doesn’t have weakness and cripple attached. Evading and stealing a boon is completely reasonable for spending 42% of a standard initiative bar.

Also note, you don’t get all 3 in 1 skill – FS is Defense, LS is Damage and Utility. If you need defense and you have LS up, you don’t get it. If you need damage and utility and FS is up, you don’t get it.

Nerf empathic bond? Are you serious?

evilapprentice.6379:

Kavia.8249:

FS→LS costs 5 init – it better do something special if it costs 5 init, does similiar DPS to AA, and doesn’t have weakness and cripple attached. Evading and stealing a boon is completely reasonable for spending 42% of a standard initiative bar.
Also note, you don’t get all 3 in 1 skill – FS is Defense, LS is Damage and Utility. If you need defense and you have LS up, you don’t get it. If you need damage and utility and FS is up, you don’t get it.

Yes, sword AA is indeed too strong, as are most autoattacks in this game.

The S/D #3 would be better if it were more similar to shortbow 3, which is a skill that is not regarded as imbalanced by so many players. I think a large part of this is because it doesn’t do a huge amount of damage/initiative, where as the fs-ls chain does a ton of damage/initiative. In fact, fs-ls does the most damage/initiative for any initiative costing thief attack besides heartseeker (<50%) and unload – but both of those do only damage, are single target, and offer no secondary effect aside from combo finishing.