Guild Wars 2

I think the Balance should be adjusted a bit so we all have 15k Health on all classes.

If so, also adjust it so everyone uses the same amulet and can’t have boons

Then lower guard prot uptime marginally, increase warrior block uptime by a fair amount, reduce damage on skills with movement, evasion, or otherwise defensive components, reduce the bonus Condition Damage on Amulets by 20-25%, and decrease overall damage in PvP, across the board, by about 15-20%. I would be pleased with this.

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

Laserbolt.6731:

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

That is why these classes need new defensive traits, and some things need adjusted like taking more damage while stealthed.

Laserbolt.6731:

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

This is a load of crap.

Ele and guardian HAVE to build bunker because if they don’t have the points in the defensive/boon spam lines they get 2-shot by warriors, mesmers, and thieves.

A guardian or ele has 12k base hp in berserkers. A single eviscerate crit can bring you to 20% hp and a single hundred blades after a skull crack will kill you.

Laserbolt.6731:

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

Really? To me it sounds like just a lazy way to balance things. Sorta like fixing something with chewing gum.

Was a terrible idea to balance the classes with such insane HP differences.

Knote.2904:

Was a terrible idea to balance the classes with such insane HP differences.

Yep… it sucks that for some classes Vitality can mean almost 2x more.

As a thief in PvE, I agree.

As a thief in PvP, I agree, but not as much.

Zenith.7301:

Laserbolt.6731:

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

This is a load of crap.

Ele and guardian HAVE to build bunker because if they don’t have the points in the defensive/boon spam lines they get 2-shot by warriors, mesmers, and thieves.

A guardian or ele has 12k base hp in berserkers. A single eviscerate crit can bring you to 20% hp and a single hundred blades after a skull crack will kill you.

Nope.

As an Elementalist or a Guardian, you have plenty of ways to replenish your health bar and mitigate damage. Giving them 15k base HP would make them insanely OP.

It’s well known that the two professions with the highest health pool are horrible bunkers and go down under bursts without problems.

I agree that giving more HP is not a good idea to compensate the lack of defensive capabilities, but it is because of Warriors and Necromancers being too weak defensive-wise, not Guardians and Elementalists.

Better rounded amulets would help….4 stats or possibly 5…more choice anyway would allow people to tailor to taste.

sorrow.2364:

Zenith.7301:

Laserbolt.6731:

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

This is a load of crap.

Ele and guardian HAVE to build bunker because if they don’t have the points in the defensive/boon spam lines they get 2-shot by warriors, mesmers, and thieves.

A guardian or ele has 12k base hp in berserkers. A single eviscerate crit can bring you to 20% hp and a single hundred blades after a skull crack will kill you.

Nope.

As an Elementalist or a Guardian, you have plenty of ways to replenish your health bar and mitigate damage. Giving them 15k base HP would make them insanely OP.

It’s well known that the two professions with the highest health pool are horrible bunkers and go down under bursts without problems.

I agree that giving more HP is not a good idea to compensate the lack of defensive capabilities, but it is because of Warriors and Necromancers being too weak defensive-wise, not Guardians and Elementalists.

NOPE. Those hp replenishments and defenses are STRICTLY tied to those defensive traitlines, you’re so disgustingly ignorant.

An elementalist without points in water or arcana isn’t healing crap, isn’t having any prot, and isn’t removing conditions ourside water dagger 5 and cleansing fire utility or phoenix.

And a guardian with a berserker swords build has neither altruistic healing or 30 in virtues and sure as hell can’t tank a lot of damage or replenish his health pool.

So get off the pipe.

I honestly believe a 10-15% Vitality buff is in order for all pvp classes. Even guardians.

Daecollo.9578:

I think the Balance should be adjusted a bit so we all have 15k Health on all classes.

Or at least make the difference smaller. Like 14/15/16k base HP at 80.
After that balancing should be much easier.

so……. even tho there is sooo much damage, people are asking for lower health pools… ummmm interesting!

sorrow.2364:

Zenith.7301:

Laserbolt.6731:

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

This is a load of crap.

Ele and guardian HAVE to build bunker because if they don’t have the points in the defensive/boon spam lines they get 2-shot by warriors, mesmers, and thieves.

A guardian or ele has 12k base hp in berserkers. A single eviscerate crit can bring you to 20% hp and a single hundred blades after a skull crack will kill you.

Nope.

As an Elementalist or a Guardian, you have plenty of ways to replenish your health bar and mitigate damage. Giving them 15k base HP would make them insanely OP.

It’s well known that the two professions with the highest health pool are horrible bunkers and go down under bursts without problems.

I agree that giving more HP is not a good idea to compensate the lack of defensive capabilities, but it is because of Warriors and Necromancers being too weak defensive-wise, not Guardians and Elementalists.

You think Necros are horrible bunkers? Lmao.

Make every class identical. It is the only way.

TheWalkingDead.7298:

Make every class identical. It is the only way.

+1 this

If the game wasn’t already out I’d agree 100%. Since it already is
My opinion is: Too late.

Zenith.7301:

NOPE. Those hp replenishments and defenses are STRICTLY tied to those defensive traitlines, you’re so disgustingly ignorant.

An elementalist without points in water or arcana isn’t healing crap, isn’t having any prot, and isn’t removing conditions ourside water dagger 5 and cleansing fire utility or phoenix.

And a guardian with a berserker swords build has neither altruistic healing or 30 in virtues and sure as hell can’t tank a lot of damage or replenish his health pool.

So get off the pipe.

There is no reason to being aggressive, so chill out, man.

First off, Guardians and Elementalists have a lot of HP replenishments regardless their traitpoint distributions. An elementalist can attune to water also without any point spent into Water Magic and a Guardian can use Shield of Assorption, Empower, Orb of Light and Virtue of Resolve also without any point spent into the Honor traitline.

Warrior and Necromancer, on the other hand, have no realiable healing by themselves compared to Elementalists and Guardians, so stop posting bullkittens. The defensive capability imbalances between Warrior-Necromancer and Guardian-Elementalist are so obvious that there isn’t even a need to explain them to you, you just need to start thinking about thet and, maybe, start playing the professions you’re talking about.

Zeon.8239:

You think Necros are horrible bunkers? Lmao.

Yeah, that’s why we’ve seen so many bunker Necros in any meta. Bunker eles and guardians, in comparison, are a rare sight.

sorrow.2364:

Zenith.7301:

NOPE. Those hp replenishments and defenses are STRICTLY tied to those defensive traitlines, you’re so disgustingly ignorant.

An elementalist without points in water or arcana isn’t healing crap, isn’t having any prot, and isn’t removing conditions ourside water dagger 5 and cleansing fire utility or phoenix.

And a guardian with a berserker swords build has neither altruistic healing or 30 in virtues and sure as hell can’t tank a lot of damage or replenish his health pool.

So get off the pipe.

There is no reason to being aggressive, so chill out, man.

First off, Guardians and Elementalists have a lot of HP replenishments regardless their traitpoint distributions. An elementalist can attune to water also without any point spent into Water Magic and a Guardian can use Shield of Assorption, Empower, Orb of Light and Virtue of Resolve also without any point spent into the Honor traitline.

Warrior and Necromancer, on the other hand, have no realiable healing by themselves compared to Elementalists and Guardians, so stop posting bullkittens. The defensive capability imbalances between Warrior-Necromancer and Guardian-Elementalist are so obvious that there isn’t even a need to explain them to you, you just need to start thinking about thet and, maybe, start playing the professions you’re talking about.

Zeon.8239:

You think Necros are horrible bunkers? Lmao.

Yeah, that’s why we’ve seen so many bunker Necros in any meta. Bunker eles and guardians, in comparison, are a rare sight.

LMAO!

Sorry man …ele can’t heal at all switching to water with no pts spent in the trait line( you want the minor trait : healing ripple at 15 water minor trait ), so you’ll switch to water just to use a 20-40s CD skill that heal for 1.4k HP pts …because with no water trait pts spent, your base healing power is 0

@Daecollo..once again a great idea…but it’s far too late to save this sinking ship, good attempt though but as you can see most of the GW2 community talks only out of sheer ignorance : necro can’t bunker, ele healing himself switching to water…with no pts spent in water…no wonder this game has gone downhill

P.S one of the main reasons why GW1 PvP balance remain supreme compared to GW2 is because the HP difference between professions was at most 20%…no 80%+ like in GW2 ( ele =10k HP and warrior = 18k HP)

Manijin.3428:

Then lower guard prot uptime marginally, increase warrior block uptime by a fair amount, reduce damage on skills with movement, evasion, or otherwise defensive components, reduce the bonus Condition Damage on Amulets by 20-25%, and decrease overall damage in PvP, across the board, by about 15-20%. I would be pleased with this.

Ranger has way more prot uptime than guardian.

instead of 15K, I think everyone should have the current health pool of necromancer/warrior with Knight amulets on them. The game already has a too-fast pace, can’t really afford to make it even crazier

otherwise, good idea

p.s. Necromancers should also start with full Death Shroud bar because it’s their only choice of damage mitigation

sorrow.2364:

Zenith.7301:

NOPE. Those hp replenishments and defenses are STRICTLY tied to those defensive traitlines, you’re so disgustingly ignorant.

An elementalist without points in water or arcana isn’t healing crap, isn’t having any prot, and isn’t removing conditions ourside water dagger 5 and cleansing fire utility or phoenix.

And a guardian with a berserker swords build has neither altruistic healing or 30 in virtues and sure as hell can’t tank a lot of damage or replenish his health pool.

So get off the pipe.

There is no reason to being aggressive, so chill out, man.

First off, Guardians and Elementalists have a lot of HP replenishments regardless their traitpoint distributions. An elementalist can attune to water also without any point spent into Water Magic and a Guardian can use Shield of Assorption, Empower, Orb of Light and Virtue of Resolve also without any point spent into the Honor traitline.

Warrior and Necromancer, on the other hand, have no realiable healing by themselves compared to Elementalists and Guardians, so stop posting bullkittens. The defensive capability imbalances between Warrior-Necromancer and Guardian-Elementalist are so obvious that there isn’t even a need to explain them to you, you just need to start thinking about thet and, maybe, start playing the professions you’re talking about.

Zeon.8239:

You think Necros are horrible bunkers? Lmao.

Yeah, that’s why we’ve seen so many bunker Necros in any meta. Bunker eles and guardians, in comparison, are a rare sight.

What is this man? Warrior has better passive healing than guardian atm! To be able to get close to warrior’s passive regen, then guardian needs to use cleric set. Gimping all of his damage in the process.

I honestly don’t know what game you are playing.

If guardian is going to use empower, orb of light and shield of absorption, then they are doing absolutely no damage. So what you are saying their hp is justified if: They take honor traits, they take staff and shield.

You can’t mention the other traits because aside from AH and Monk’s focus, it offers no survivability what so ever. Your reasoning just can’t hold up, because it can apply to any class.

Aza.2105:

Manijin.3428:

Then lower guard prot uptime marginally, increase warrior block uptime by a fair amount, reduce damage on skills with movement, evasion, or otherwise defensive components, reduce the bonus Condition Damage on Amulets by 20-25%, and decrease overall damage in PvP, across the board, by about 15-20%. I would be pleased with this.

Ranger has way more prot uptime than guardian.

Oh yeah, good point. Earth Spirit could do with a bit of nerfing. Honestly, I’d rather the spirits all gave constant passive benefits rather than boons, like damage buffs, a chance to inflict bonus damage, or negating a chunk of damage. Heck, 10% would be fair for Earth Spirit. Plus it’d make it better for groups in team fights.

Manijin.3428:

Aza.2105:

Manijin.3428:

Then lower guard prot uptime marginally, increase warrior block uptime by a fair amount, reduce damage on skills with movement, evasion, or otherwise defensive components, reduce the bonus Condition Damage on Amulets by 20-25%, and decrease overall damage in PvP, across the board, by about 15-20%. I would be pleased with this.

Ranger has way more prot uptime than guardian.

Oh yeah, good point. Earth Spirit could do with a bit of nerfing. Honestly, I’d rather the spirits all gave constant passive benefits rather than boons, like damage buffs, a chance to inflict bonus damage, or negating a chunk of damage. Heck, 10% would be fair for Earth Spirit. Plus it’d make it better for groups in team fights.

Guardian’s protection uptime was nerfed universally in pvp. Shield of Judgment, Save yourselves, Hold the line. Also, a important note that sorrow doesn’t seem to mention are cooldowns.

While guardian can stack a longer duration of protection initially, a much longer CD exists. Making the interval between having protection and not having it very very long. For example, shield of judgement has a 35 sec base cd and 3 secs of protection in pvp. While earth spirit has 3 secs of protection with a 10 sec cd. This is around three times the uptime than shield of judgment.

Hold the line has a 35 base cd and 5 secs of protection, Save yourselves 6 secs with a 60 sec cd.

But ranger can spam dodge and get protection, which synergizes with their other vigor traits. Between dodging and earth spirit their protection time is much much higher than guardian with a smaller interval between the time its down and up.

Also what I wanted to add, Guardian was given their health pool because they were considered hard to kill in beta. This is before guardian had protection, retaliation, heal dodge roll and a ton of other things nerfed. This is when guardian was the premier class for condition removal.

Now when you look at the recent changes, warrior heals just as good as guardian, they remove conditions just as good as guardian while maintaining offensive capability. This isn’t bad per say, the nature of mmorpgs is that of something constantly evolving. I personally feel guardian’s hp is too low in the current state of the game. Perhaps in the future it will be adjusted.

@sorrow: you have lots to learn regarding Eles, men…. Everything you said so far is just so wrong ..!!!! I have a good laugh, thanks…. >>… Try to play an Eles with no point in water and survive more than 10s against any Dps class, 20s against any Condi class..You have my bet on you that you will not come out at a winner ~_~…

@sorrow: you need play more as elementalist without water and/or arcane traits.

Guys, seriously, don’t be stupid.
You’re talking like without Healing Ripple or Water Magic elementalists have no healing at all.

Even with no healing power at all, Elementalists have, without counting their main healing, at least two other healing skills in ANY of their weapon sets, which is at least 2k extra healing compared to other professions and this without any trait.

How many healing do Necromancers and Warriors have in their weapon sets?
Only Necromancers have Life Siphon, which is a weaker and slower version of Cone of Cold.

Then add traits into the formula and you’ll realize that Guardian and Elementalists have a lot more survivability compared to Necromancers and Warriors at the moment.

Give everyone the same HP pool without reworking the profession design, then Guardians, Elementalists and Thieves will become unkillable.

Also, all this theorycrafting about Warriors and Necromancers being better bunker than Elementalists and Guardians is pointless. Warrior and Necromancer as bunker have been tried a lot of times and they just don’t work. They lack the sustain of Guardian and Elementalist, so they won’t work as a bunker unless ANet give them the healing capabilities of said professions.

If they were such a great bunkers as some people here are claiming them to be, then we would probably see Guardian being replaced by one of them. This has never, ever, happened in any meta this game has seen, while there was a period in which Elementalist almost took over the role of the Guardian.

So, basically, the topic should not be called “Normalized Health Pools.”, but
“Just change everything in sPvP because it is definitely not like creating all professions again”

Sorrow,

What you are saying is inaccurate. Warriors healing is much better than guardian passively all the while not being forced to use cleric amulet to bunker. If warriors choose to use cleric, then the results would be far greater than Guardian.

Your entire perspective centers around “popular builds” nothing more.

410 passively with healing signet?
Adrenalin gives 135 per sec (405 every 3)
Regeneration every 10 on snares/roots with 175 a tick.

That is without healing power. Guardian can not come close to matching this without giving up everything. Which sheds light on why guardians go bunker, because there isn’t anything else. You either give up all your damage to bunk or you give up all your defense to dps. While warrior doesn’t have to choose such extremes.

You probably should dig through this thread on the guardian forums:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Play-to-Our-Strengths/page/3

Aza.2105:

Sorrow,

What you are saying is inaccurate. Warriors healing is much better than guardian passively all the while not being forced to use cleric amulet to bunker. If warriors choose to use cleric, then the results would be far greater than Guardian.

Your entire perspective centers around “popular builds” nothing more.

410 passively with healing signet?
Adrenalin gives 135 per sec (405 every 3)
Regeneration every 10 on snares/roots with 175 a tick.

That is without healing power. Guardian can not come close to matching this without giving up everything. Which sheds light on why guardians go bunker, because there isn’t anything else. You either give up all your damage to bunk or you give up all your defense to dps. While warrior doesn’t have to choose such extremes.

You probably should dig through this thread on the guardian forums:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Play-to-Our-Strengths/page/3

The logic behind your reasoning makes no sense.

True, Warrior passive regen is quite high compared to Guardian’s passive regen, but passive regen isn’t what makes a bunker a good bunker. Damage mitigation, burst healing, good condition cleansing and damage avoidation is what makes a bunker a good bunker. Warrior do these worse compared to Guardian (and Elementalist too).

As I’ve said, if Warrior was such a great bunker, in PvP we would have seen any bunker Guardian replaced with bunker Warrior in a twinkle, which is not the case.

I suggest you to try the regen-bunker warrior, go into tPvP and try to bunk the middle point. You can hold a single player easily, but once you are facing 2 players, the passive regen cannot compensate the damage input (which you can’t mitigate or avoid as good as a Guardian) and you’ll go down quite fast, because you lack the burst healing Guardian has.

sorrow.2364:

Aza.2105:

Sorrow,

What you are saying is inaccurate. Warriors healing is much better than guardian passively all the while not being forced to use cleric amulet to bunker. If warriors choose to use cleric, then the results would be far greater than Guardian.

Your entire perspective centers around “popular builds” nothing more.

410 passively with healing signet?
Adrenalin gives 135 per sec (405 every 3)
Regeneration every 10 on snares/roots with 175 a tick.

That is without healing power. Guardian can not come close to matching this without giving up everything. Which sheds light on why guardians go bunker, because there isn’t anything else. You either give up all your damage to bunk or you give up all your defense to dps. While warrior doesn’t have to choose such extremes.

You probably should dig through this thread on the guardian forums:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Play-to-Our-Strengths/page/3

The logic behind your reasoning makes no sense.

True, Warrior passive regen is quite high compared to Guardian’s passive regen, but passive regen isn’t what makes a bunker a good bunker. Damage mitigation, burst healing, good condition cleansing and damage avoidation is what makes a bunker a good bunker. Warrior do these worse compared to Guardian (and Elementalist too).

As I’ve said, if Warrior was such a great bunker, in PvP we would have seen any bunker Guardian replaced with bunker Warrior in a twinkle, which is not the case.

I suggest you to try the regen-bunker warrior, go into tPvP and try to bunk the middle point. You can hold a single player easily, but once you are facing 2 players, the passive regen cannot compensate the damage input (which you can’t mitigate or avoid as good as a Guardian) and you’ll go down quite fast, because you lack the burst healing Guardian has.

Warrior has burst healing with shouts, which also heals team mates. They just don’t run it. There aren’t any warrior bunkers with cleric amulet because there is no need. They can effectively hold points and do damage at once. Guardian goes cleric amulet+heal build because there really isn’t much choice. Thats why I said, your perspective about guardian is a mix of truth and vivid imagination.

PS.

Warrior’s condition cleansing is probably as good as guardians now. Where as before they were designed around other’s cleansing conditions for them. So since the class can take care of themselves now, does that justify a HP or damage nerf?

sorrow.2364:

Aza.2105:

Sorrow,

What you are saying is inaccurate. Warriors healing is much better than guardian passively all the while not being forced to use cleric amulet to bunker. If warriors choose to use cleric, then the results would be far greater than Guardian.

Your entire perspective centers around “popular builds” nothing more.

410 passively with healing signet?
Adrenalin gives 135 per sec (405 every 3)
Regeneration every 10 on snares/roots with 175 a tick.

That is without healing power. Guardian can not come close to matching this without giving up everything. Which sheds light on why guardians go bunker, because there isn’t anything else. You either give up all your damage to bunk or you give up all your defense to dps. While warrior doesn’t have to choose such extremes.

You probably should dig through this thread on the guardian forums:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Play-to-Our-Strengths/page/3

The logic behind your reasoning makes no sense.

True, Warrior passive regen is quite high compared to Guardian’s passive regen, but passive regen isn’t what makes a bunker a good bunker. Damage mitigation, burst healing, good condition cleansing and damage avoidation is what makes a bunker a good bunker. Warrior do these worse compared to Guardian (and Elementalist too).

As I’ve said, if Warrior was such a great bunker, in PvP we would have seen any bunker Guardian replaced with bunker Warrior in a twinkle, which is not the case.

I suggest you to try the regen-bunker warrior, go into tPvP and try to bunk the middle point. You can hold a single player easily, but once you are facing 2 players, the passive regen cannot compensate the damage input (which you can’t mitigate or avoid as good as a Guardian) and you’ll go down quite fast, because you lack the burst healing Guardian has.

You also lack the group healing as well, and the utility that they have to keep people away from them. Guardians have a ton of AOE Crowd Control.

Daecollo.9578:

sorrow.2364:

Aza.2105:

Sorrow,

What you are saying is inaccurate. Warriors healing is much better than guardian passively all the while not being forced to use cleric amulet to bunker. If warriors choose to use cleric, then the results would be far greater than Guardian.

Your entire perspective centers around “popular builds” nothing more.

410 passively with healing signet?
Adrenalin gives 135 per sec (405 every 3)
Regeneration every 10 on snares/roots with 175 a tick.

That is without healing power. Guardian can not come close to matching this without giving up everything. Which sheds light on why guardians go bunker, because there isn’t anything else. You either give up all your damage to bunk or you give up all your defense to dps. While warrior doesn’t have to choose such extremes.

You probably should dig through this thread on the guardian forums:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Play-to-Our-Strengths/page/3

The logic behind your reasoning makes no sense.

True, Warrior passive regen is quite high compared to Guardian’s passive regen, but passive regen isn’t what makes a bunker a good bunker. Damage mitigation, burst healing, good condition cleansing and damage avoidation is what makes a bunker a good bunker. Warrior do these worse compared to Guardian (and Elementalist too).

As I’ve said, if Warrior was such a great bunker, in PvP we would have seen any bunker Guardian replaced with bunker Warrior in a twinkle, which is not the case.

I suggest you to try the regen-bunker warrior, go into tPvP and try to bunk the middle point. You can hold a single player easily, but once you are facing 2 players, the passive regen cannot compensate the damage input (which you can’t mitigate or avoid as good as a Guardian) and you’ll go down quite fast, because you lack the burst healing Guardian has.

You also lack the group healing as well, and the utility that they have to keep people away from them. Guardians have a ton of AOE Crowd Control.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Shouts

Also heals nearby allies.

And hammer says hello!

Aza.2105:

Warrior has burst healing with shouts, which also heals team mates. They just don’t run it. There aren’t any warrior bunkers with cleric amulet because there is no need. They can effectively hold points and do damage at once. Guardian goes cleric amulet+heal build because there really isn’t much choice. Thats why I said, your perspective about guardian is a mix of truth and vivid imagination.

PS.

Warrior’s condition cleansing is probably as good as guardians now. Where as before they were designed around other’s cleansing conditions for them. So since the class can take care of themselves now, does that justify a HP or damage nerf?

There is the need of Cleric amulet even on a Warrior.
The regeneration is incredibly poor if you don’t stack enough Healing Power.

Also, Warrior don’t run Vigorous Shouts because of Inspiring Battle Standard. Warrior have no access at all to Regeneration if they don’t run that trait.

Guardian condition cleansing is still superior.
Pure of Voice + Runes of the Soldier clean 2 conditions on allies on each shout used.
Absolute Resolution is an extra condition cleansing. That is added to the passive condition cleansing of the Signet of Resolve (which grants amazing healing too).
Also, Guardians have Light Fields everywhere, which provide condition cleansing on Projectile Finishers and Whirl Finishers.

Warrior condition cleansing is Cleansing Ire (which is only 1-3 conditions removed from self), Rune of the Soldier or Quick Breathing (which is mutually exclusive with Lung Capacity).

So, the best condition cleansing warriors can have is provided by Cleansing Ire + Rune of The Soldier, definitely inferior to the party-wide condition cleansing provided by Guardians.

I dare you to stop spreading misinformations here and try to bunk as a Warrior. Then compare it to Guardian bunker. There is no comparison at all.

TheWalkingDead.7298:

Make every class identical. It is the only way.

Whats This? No Items!, Fox Only!, Final Destination!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-7gmds2njg

sorrow.2364:

Aza.2105:

Warrior has burst healing with shouts, which also heals team mates. They just don’t run it. There aren’t any warrior bunkers with cleric amulet because there is no need. They can effectively hold points and do damage at once. Guardian goes cleric amulet+heal build because there really isn’t much choice. Thats why I said, your perspective about guardian is a mix of truth and vivid imagination.

PS.

Warrior’s condition cleansing is probably as good as guardians now. Where as before they were designed around other’s cleansing conditions for them. So since the class can take care of themselves now, does that justify a HP or damage nerf?

There is the need of Cleric amulet even on a Warrior.
The regeneration is incredibly poor if you don’t stack enough Healing Power.

Also, Warrior don’t run Vigorous Shouts because of Inspiring Battle Standard. Warrior have no access at all to Regeneration if they don’t run that trait.

Guardian condition cleansing is still superior.
Pure of Voice + Runes of the Soldier clean 2 conditions on allies on each shout used.
Absolute Resolution is an extra condition cleansing. That is added to the passive condition cleansing of the Signet of Resolve (which grants amazing healing too).
Also, Guardians have Light Fields everywhere, which provide condition cleansing on Projectile Finishers and Whirl Finishers.

Warrior condition cleansing is Cleansing Ire (which is only 1-3 conditions removed from self), Rune of the Soldier or Quick Breathing (which is mutually exclusive with Lung Capacity).

So, the best condition cleansing warriors can have is provided by Cleansing Ire + Rune of The Soldier, definitely inferior to the party-wide condition cleansing provided by Guardians.

I dare you to stop spreading misinformations here and try to bunk as a Warrior. Then compare it to Guardian bunker. There is no comparison at all.

Are you sure that I’m the one spreading false information here?

Aza.2105:

Are you sure that I’m the one spreading false information here?

Please, point me the false information I’ve given.

sorrow.2364:

Aza.2105:

Are you sure that I’m the one spreading false information here?

Please, point me the false information I’ve given.

You said warriors lack the burst healing guardian has. When I pointed out how they do have burst healing, all you did was try to talk your way around it. To try to justify your perspective.

You tried to make it seem like warriors lose out if they use vigorous shouts. But guess what? So does guardian. Let me break it down for you. Many classes have three sources of regen, in the case of guardian and warrior:

Warrior: healing signet, adrenaline and regen
Guardian: vor, writ of the merciful and regen

Healing signet is superior to vor, no matter if its traited or not. adrenaline is superior to writ of the merciful and on top of that you don’t even need healing power since it doesn’t scale well with it anyway. Warrior has more regen uptime if they trait for it.

Then you failed to mention berserker stance and defy pain and the traited one. All three which are superior to renewed focus or anything in guardian’s arsenal. So not only can warrior cleanse conditions fairly well now, but they can negate them entirely for 8+ secs. All while being mobile and dealing damage. Not to mention you failed to mention signet of stamina.

You lied saying warrior needs cleric gear to have high healing signet numbers. I’m looking at my warrior now and it reads 397 with zero healing gear. Again, false information.

What you failed to realize is that I said warrior now removes conditions just as good as guardian, not that they remove conditions equal to guardian. But again this is irrelevant. Why? Because it has to do with health pools and why each class has the amount of health they do.

Warrior had high health to buffer the fact that they were poor at condition removal, anet tried to push the agenda that they would need to ask for help to remove them. So high health was needed because they expected warrior to soak up a lot of damage.

But with the recent changes they can now remove conditions very well on their own, which is good. However, its totally against the first principle of why they had high hp.

Now, with guardian as I mentioned they had low hp because of: protection uptime, retaliation and heals.

The best heal guardian has is the dodge heal, but this was nerfed in pvp by 50%. Protection duration was nerfed. Retaliation duration and damage was nerfed. And once again as I said, ranger has a higher protection uptime than guardian and a higher regen uptime than guardian, all while doing damage.

As I mentioned before, mmos evolve and what was true yesterday may no longer be exactly true today. I can’t speak for eles or thieves but I’d say for guardian their health pool is no longer justified by what they can do. Since they have long ago been nerfed.

The class is highly polarized. Unlike warrior, guardian must either be one thing or the other. Since they can’t do both at once. But unlike warrior’s they can’t remain sturdy while being offensive, hence the stereotype of guardian=bunker. Because there isn’t much choice in the matter.

Its not saying guardian is the best bunker but the most common one due to this fact.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/WvW-The-Healway-Guardian/first

I call BS.

Also, the highest class for bunkering right now is Ranger, it out classes both Warrior/Guardian.

Daecollo.9578:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/WvW-The-Healway-Guardian/first

I call BS.

Also, the highest class for bunkering right now is Ranger, it out classes both Warrior/Guardian.

Its true, rangers make great bunkers now. But I feel that it should be a viable choice to choose that playstyle for ranger.

I don’t think that normalizing health pools across all classes would be smart. I DO think that increasing health pools on classes that are deemed a bit “weak” until further buffs would be a wise choice to temporarily increase their viability.

Eles, for example, are a class that might need a slight increase in HP since they’ve fallen almost completely out of favor in the meta because of their serious issues with survivability against condis (even with 30 water and ether renewal). Until a meta gets a good smack to change it up any particular class with particular strengths and weaknesses will find itself on the bottom and a temporary (or permanent) change to health pools in PvP would alleviate that at least a tiny bit.

Ele gets hardcountered by warrior or s/d thief much harder than they do by condis, so I don’t get why you’re constantly blaming everything on condis.

Hey while you’re at it, make it so everyone does the same amount of damage for every skill on every profession, has the same armour rating and crit chance/crit damage and remove conditions entirely!

Aza.2105:

cut

No, I’ve said that the build you were referring to (Regen build) can’t have burst healing because, in that case, you wouldn’t have the regeneration boon. Dogged March is an horrible trait and there is no reason to pick it over Shield Master or Missile Deflection.

Then, again, you are going down to a regen comparison. As I said before and I’ll say it again to you, there is no doubt that Warrior passive regen is better, but passive regen isn’t what makes a bunker a good bunker. Understood?
So please, stop making passive regen comparisons and trying to use them as a proof of Warriors being better bunkers then Guardians.

It seems that you are under the belief that Warriors are capable to run 9 utilities. Well, I’ve got news for you, they can’t. If you’re running Shouts for burst healing, then you’re not running Berserker Stance, nor Defy Pain, neither Signet of Stamina. If you’re running Berserker Stance, Defy Pain and Signet of Stamina for condition removals, then you have no burst healing at all.

I’m looking at my Warrior now. Do you know how much Healing Signet heals with Cleric gear? 439. It’s 50 more HP per second. Do you know how much Adrenal Health heal you with Cleric gear? 130+ HP more. Regen heals for 120+ HP too.
43+50+120 = ~213 more HP per second. It’s about 33% more healing per second.
To me, those extra numbers are vital, maybe not for you, but I’ve said no lies.

The high HP pool on warrior has another reason behind, it wasn’t because of the lack of condition removal.
The high HP pool is because the lack of a perma-vigor source, the lack of reliable burst healing (which doesn’t force you to pick 3 utilities), the lack of Protection and the lack of Aegis.

Again, your reasoning makes no sense. Competitive teams don’t just take Guardian because they fit the stereotype of the bunker, neither because it is the only role they can fit. Competitive teams pick Guardian because it is by far the best bunker this game has to offer and this has never changed since the game has launched. Every team (seriously, every) has a bunker Guardian in their composition. Saying that Guardian can be replaced with a better bunker is a pure illation and is not proven by facts at all.

sorrow.2364:

Even with no healing power at all, Elementalists have, without counting their main healing, at least two other healing skills in ANY of their weapon sets, which is at least 2k extra healing compared to other professions and this without any trait.

Focus.
Seriously, have you at least looked at a build calculator for ele before you posted?
Also unless a duel in a dps build lasts enough for me to heal over 3 times with water abilities, I don’t see how useful those 2k heals are when a warrior/necro has 7-8k more base HP than me.

No justification, no beans for you.

Wryog.5073:

Focus.
Seriously, have you at least looked at a build calculator for ele before you posted?
Also unless a duel in a dps build lasts enough for me to heal over 3 times with water abilities, I don’t see how useful those 2k heals are when a warrior/necro has 7-8k more base HP than me.

Focus is not so popular for a reason.

The reason why those extra heals are useful is because Elementalist has better damage avoidance compared to Warrior/Necro.

First off, Elementalist have access to permanent-vigor via trait. Warriors have no access to reliable vigor unless they run Warhorn or stances, while Necromancers have no access to vigor at all.
Those extra dodges provided by vigor are damage not taken that a Necromancer or a Warrior would have taken.

Arcana Elementalists, also, have incredibly easy access to protection. While Warriors have no access to protection at all, Necromancer have some of it at low uptime. This extra protection uptime is, again, not-taken damage.

Just those two things are enough to justify the 7-8k of HP difference, which is even more mitigated while Elementalists run some Healing Power gear.