Guild Wars 2

I know we have countless topics on d/d elementalist being too strong in pvp atm. Almost every topic on it is about how burn is over the top and should be nerfed. I am here to tell you that the core of the problem isn’t simply the burn they can put out.

There is a reason why this build works well in pvp but is hardly used in anything else. It doesn’t work unless certain conditions are met. What are those conditions that make it so great in pvp?

The first thing is to look at the game mode. Players have to compete for a point. The reason elementalist is so great at competing for the point is because they can sustain, gain might, and put out continous burns by staying in the same general spot.

The next condition that needs to be met is players have to engage the elementalist rather than kite them out. This makes it rather easy for for them to apply alot of burn over time and simply out-sustain other players.

The problem was never the burns; it is their ability to stay on point and out-sustain. My proposed changes will hopefully make it a little more fair in 1v1 situations and give people the ability to pressure elementalists a bit more and reward a bit more skillful play for elementalists.

Traits
Nothing needs to be changed in the fire traitline. Nerfing blinding ashes does nothing and ruins some scepter builds. I don’t even play with that trait and I notice almost no difference.

In general, all the traits synergize a little too well and gives more sustain than I think Anet realized. I feel a good change is making players choose between vigor/regen on cantrips and reducing the cooldowns.

Soothing Disruption- gain regen and vigor from using a cantrip. Gain 10% damage while above 90% health

Aquamancer’s Training- Reduce recharge on cantrips -20%. Reduce water recharge -33%.

I believe that is a fair trade. It makes players compete for the extra condi removal from reduced cleansing fire recharge/might uptime for extra regen and vigor.

That’s it. That is the only change I feel is necessary to bring elementalists down to a more acceptable level. Players will most likely go for the regen and vigor, but will lose out on lower cooldown of cantrips. This will hopefully bring them down to the point where they can’t sustain on point for long periods of time.

It has always been my opinion that sustain was the problem. thoughts?

Thoughts. My thoughts are that I’m tired of people shouting about how elementalist are overpowered. They’re top tier. Top tier and in need of rebalance are two different things. If you think that eles or Cele are OP, please just go L2P.

EsarioOne.9840:

Thoughts. My thoughts are that I’m tired of people shouting about how elementalist are overpowered. They’re top tier. Top tier and in need of rebalance are two different things. If you think that eles or Cele are OP, please just go L2P.

Trust me man, I know. Mained ele for 3 years. Literally everyone I talk to says its a little too good right now. I happen to agree.

Same thing is happening with mesmer. Both of these class are where others should be… They are top tier and either the other class need to be brought to their level or they need to be shaved off of a bit of what make them so strong.
Mos of the community love using words such as op because it makes them feel in the right to complain. Truth is, I’ve never seen in the amount of meta I’ve passed through any class considered op. Oh yes some classes or builds were over the top, but blatantly op so that they could run through a whole game and faceroll everyone, no matter against who and what? So strong that it could literally 1v3 or more and win? No. I haven’t. (I have seen a friend of mine fighting scrubs in a 1v3 and he won, but it was on a Cele necro this meta so…) Community whine for the sake of whining, it just changes class based on the current fotm

Burning needs to be brought in line, there is no argument there.

THEN I will bother re-evaluating ele.

Pepsi.8907:

Same thing is happening with mesmer. Both of these class are where others should be… They are top tier and either the other class need to be brought to their level

So that everyone can just blow up all the time unless they run distortion heavy, signet of stone, endure pain, etc builds?
Some classes don’t have that kind of passive mitigation where they can still do whatever while taking no damage.

The power creep is already annoying.

GrandHaven.1052:

Burning needs to be brought in line, there is no argument there.

THEN I will bother re-evaluating ele.

You need to provide a better argument than that. Anyone with a little condi removal can counter a burn guard. No one complains about trapper ranger burns or engi burns. Those builds aren’t even considered meta.

GrandHaven.1052:

Pepsi.8907:

Same thing is happening with mesmer. Both of these class are where others should be… They are top tier and either the other class need to be brought to their level

So that everyone can just blow up all the time unless they run distortion heavy, signet of stone, endure pain, etc builds?
Some classes don’t have that kind of passive mitigation where they can still do whatever while taking no damage.

The power creep is already annoying.

Each their opinion, however I’d rather see buff like these than mindless nerf that puts a class to the ground like what happened with ele two years(?) ago… And personally, I absolutely love the power creep, makes for fast paced gaming that suits me just fine

FrownyClown.8402:

GrandHaven.1052:

Burning needs to be brought in line, there is no argument there.

THEN I will bother re-evaluating ele.

You need to provide a better argument than that. Anyone with a little condi removal can counter a burn guard. No one complains about trapper ranger burns or engi burns. Those builds aren’t even considered meta.

Its a perfectly valid argument, depending on what kind of nerf burning gets, that will determine how much offence the ele loses out on.
I am sure they will need more looking at, but ANET has a habit of overcompensating.

FrownyClown.8402:

I know we have countless topics on d/d elementalist being too strong in pvp atm. Almost every topic on it is about how burn is over the top and should be nerfed. I am here to tell you that the core of the problem isn’t simply the burn they can put out.

There is a reason why this build works well in pvp but is hardly used in anything else. It doesn’t work unless certain conditions are met. What are those conditions that make it so great in pvp?

The first thing is to look at the game mode. Players have to compete for a point. The reason elementalist is so great at competing for the point is because they can sustain, gain might, and put out continous burns by staying in the same general spot.

The next condition that needs to be met is players have to engage the elementalist rather than kite them out. This makes it rather easy for for them to apply alot of burn over time and simply out-sustain other players.

The problem was never the burns; it is their ability to stay on point and out-sustain. My proposed changes will hopefully make it a little more fair in 1v1 situations and give people the ability to pressure elementalists a bit more and reward a bit more skillful play for elementalists.

Traits
Nothing needs to be changed in the fire traitline. Nerfing blinding ashes does nothing and ruins some scepter builds. I don’t even play with that trait and I notice almost no difference.

In general, all the traits synergize a little too well and gives more sustain than I think Anet realized. I feel a good change is making players choose between vigor/regen on cantrips and reducing the cooldowns.

Soothing Disruption- gain regen and vigor from using a cantrip. Gain 10% damage while above 90% health

Aquamancer’s Training- Reduce recharge on cantrips -20%. Reduce water recharge -33%.

I believe that is a fair trade. It makes players compete for the extra condi removal from reduced cleansing fire recharge/might uptime for extra regen and vigor.

That’s it. That is the only change I feel is necessary to bring elementalists down to a more acceptable level. Players will most likely go for the regen and vigor, but will lose out on lower cooldown of cantrips. This will hopefully bring them down to the point where they can’t sustain on point for long periods of time.

It has always been my opinion that sustain was the problem. thoughts?

Except they’re also very good at roaming in WvW, and nothing about fighting on point about that.

Terrible suggestions that would simply break all ele builds. Ele is pretty balanced. With stronghold as a new pvp mode anet can just let the old conquest mode die out. Time to start thinking in balance with the stronghold perspective.

xDudisx.5914:

Terrible suggestions that would simply break all ele builds. Ele is pretty balanced. With stronghold as a new pvp mode anet can just let the old conquest mode die out. Time to start thinking in balance with the stronghold perspective.

I laughed…

chibbi.3706:

FrownyClown.8402:

I know we have countless topics on d/d elementalist being too strong in pvp atm. Almost every topic on it is about how burn is over the top and should be nerfed. I am here to tell you that the core of the problem isn’t simply the burn they can put out.

There is a reason why this build works well in pvp but is hardly used in anything else. It doesn’t work unless certain conditions are met. What are those conditions that make it so great in pvp?

The first thing is to look at the game mode. Players have to compete for a point. The reason elementalist is so great at competing for the point is because they can sustain, gain might, and put out continous burns by staying in the same general spot.

The next condition that needs to be met is players have to engage the elementalist rather than kite them out. This makes it rather easy for for them to apply alot of burn over time and simply out-sustain other players.

The problem was never the burns; it is their ability to stay on point and out-sustain. My proposed changes will hopefully make it a little more fair in 1v1 situations and give people the ability to pressure elementalists a bit more and reward a bit more skillful play for elementalists.

Traits
Nothing needs to be changed in the fire traitline. Nerfing blinding ashes does nothing and ruins some scepter builds. I don’t even play with that trait and I notice almost no difference.

In general, all the traits synergize a little too well and gives more sustain than I think Anet realized. I feel a good change is making players choose between vigor/regen on cantrips and reducing the cooldowns.

Soothing Disruption- gain regen and vigor from using a cantrip. Gain 10% damage while above 90% health

Aquamancer’s Training- Reduce recharge on cantrips -20%. Reduce water recharge -33%.

I believe that is a fair trade. It makes players compete for the extra condi removal from reduced cleansing fire recharge/might uptime for extra regen and vigor.

That’s it. That is the only change I feel is necessary to bring elementalists down to a more acceptable level. Players will most likely go for the regen and vigor, but will lose out on lower cooldown of cantrips. This will hopefully bring them down to the point where they can’t sustain on point for long periods of time.

It has always been my opinion that sustain was the problem. thoughts?

Except they’re also very good at roaming in WvW, and nothing about fighting on point about that.

Yeah d/d is pretty good roaming. Burn builds, however, aren’t great in that setting.

Lol standard d/d cele is the only roaming ele build people run , nobody runs focus because it’s such a situational close combat weapon it’s better for node battles on point though you sacrifice burning damage (hint hint) and dmg for defensive utility and some cc. Condi burn d/d duelist builds are insane, but again this game isn’t balanced around 1on1s so it’s irrelevant. Let’s also not forget going full condi just doesn’t work in PvP. You need cele or greater direct dmg amulets to compete now as sustain needed for full condi to actually work is non-existent with the burst damage available now.

Eles aren’t focusing on burns when going cele it just happens.. Most of the burn damage is passive icing on the cake to the survivability and direct damage at 20+ might lol. Burn ele DOES focus on burn while trying to run a build that has no sustain , namely carrion – but in WvW yes ele burn build with dire is really strong.

This is for the d/d cele meta buildin PvP:

3 Reasons why ele is insanely strong offensive wise now and also make it good defensively are very obvious.

1. Burn damage, cele with 20+ might which is the easiest thing to do in a fight is absolutely broken with the survivability you get and coupled with BS / DB you get high dmg output with burn dmg close to that of a carrion amulet user.

The burn application from almost everything on ele is 3 stacks of burning minimum. This needs to be brought down to 1-2 stacks. Especially for passive kitten like CF trait and things like ring of fire because it’s cooldown is low. Either do or double the cooldown of ring of fire and drop CF trait burn duration to a much lower duration than it currently is.

SOMETHING needs to be done with the burn application stacks of elementalist though before doing anything to it’s survivability.

2. Blinding Ashes – You say it’s weak, but it’s actually really not and is probably one of the best traits ele has for 1on1s now (Phanta far pushes). Good timed blinds while in fire allow you to be very offensive and wreck offensive flow of other players and BA is also on a low ICD that it actually is quite good when you pair it with CF trait / CF utility / fire attunement skills.

3. 3 trait lines now. Fire completely replaced air. Why? The entire line is built around might stacking, burn damage and blinding people and a 33% reduction on those very burning skills like RoF and Drake’s breath.

Anybody who is defending burn dmg on elementalist right now is just completely oblivious and very obviously dodging an obvious nerf to their build / class that is very needed. It’s simply out of control right now.

You either do 2 things:

1. Nerf burn damage across the board

2. Nerf elementalist application across the board by stacks and/or duration

Burn guardians have next to no survivability and only work when nuking you with burns and like I said, focus on burns.

Elementalist get it added in as icing on the cake of their survivability and direct damage with Cele. You have to remember their dmg coefficients are higher than guardians on dagger skills so it goes perfectly with , yet again, getting 20+ might and using those very skills.

blitzkrieg.2451:

Lol standard d/d cele is the only roaming ele build people run , nobody runs focus because it’s such a situational close combat weapon it’s better for node battles on point though you sacrifice burning damage (hint hint) and dmg for defensive utility and some cc. Condi burn d/d duelist builds are insane, but again this game isn’t balanced around 1on1s so it’s irrelevant. Let’s also not forget going full condi just doesn’t work in PvP. You need cele or greater direct dmg amulets to compete now as sustain needed for full condi to actually work is non-existent with the burst damage available now.

Eles aren’t focusing on burns when going cele it just happens.. Most of the burn damage is passive icing on the cake to the survivability and direct damage at 20+ might lol. Burn ele DOES focus on burn while trying to run a build that has no sustain , namely carrion – but in WvW yes ele burn build with dire is really strong.

This is for the d/d cele meta buildin PvP:

3 Reasons why ele is insanely strong offensive wise now and also make it good defensively are very obvious.

1. Burn damage, cele with 20+ might which is the easiest thing to do in a fight is absolutely broken with the survivability you get and coupled with BS / DB you get high dmg output with burn dmg close to that of a carrion amulet user.

The burn application from almost everything on ele is 3 stacks of burning minimum. This needs to be brought down to 1-2 stacks. Especially for passive kitten like CF trait and things like ring of fire because it’s cooldown is low. Either do or double the cooldown of ring of fire and drop CF trait burn duration to a much lower duration than it currently is.

SOMETHING needs to be done with the burn application stacks of elementalist though before doing anything to it’s survivability.

2. Blinding Ashes – You say it’s weak, but it’s actually really not and is probably one of the best traits ele has for 1on1s now (Phanta far pushes). Good timed blinds while in fire allow you to be very offensive and wreck offensive flow of other players and BA is also on a low ICD that it actually is quite good when you pair it with CF trait / CF utility / fire attunement skills.

3. 3 trait lines now. Fire completely replaced air. Why? The entire line is built around might stacking, burn damage and blinding people and a 33% reduction on those very burning skills like RoF and Drake’s breath.

Anybody who is defending burn dmg on elementalist right now is just completely oblivious and very obviously dodging an obvious nerf to their build / class that is very needed. It’s simply out of control right now.

You either do 2 things:

1. Nerf burn damage across the board

2. Nerf elementalist application across the board by stacks and/or duration

Burn guardians have next to no survivability and only work when nuking you with burns and like I said, focus on burns.

Elementalist get it added in as icing on the cake of their survivability and direct damage with Cele. You have to remember their dmg coefficients are higher than guardians on dagger skills so it goes perfectly with , yet again, getting 20+ might and using those very skills.

I can agree with most of your points. I usually run Pyromancer’s Puissance and rune of strength, but don’t really notice much of a difference in my ability to tank without blinding ashes.

Ele at some point has to make a trade between being able to do decent damage or losing out on some sustainability. I’m all for nerfing their might stacking in general too, I just feel the sustain limits counter play and the types of builds other classes play.

Blinding Ashes is a fair trait for a class that has hands down the worst elite skills in the game. everyone forgets that Ele does no damage in earth or water. Air is also very weak unless you are running a scepter build. “We all know scepter isnt good for team comp” Now what does that leave us with? Fire, the only trait line we have that does damage. Nerf fire then what do you have? Anet made the mistake with forcing Ele to have to trait in water and Arcana. They have to go together the way Precison and Ferocity does on a burst build. So yeah d/d ele has very high burn damage. Ele cant apply any other condi pressure other than burn. I bet all the pros just frown when they read these petty forums about daily nerfs…. I wonder what the next class the community is going to whine about after Ele is finally nerfed back to the 2 year ago

EsarioOne.9840:

Thoughts. My thoughts are that I’m tired of people shouting about how elementalist are overpowered. They’re top tier. Top tier and in need of rebalance are two different things. If you think that eles or Cele are OP, please just go L2P.

If you don’t realize that eles are the strongest class right AND are OP, you might be playing a different game.

You need to separate your personal interests in the class from the reality.

Assassin O.9367:

Blinding Ashes is a fair trait for a class that has hands down the worst elite skills in the game. everyone forgets that Ele does no damage in earth or water. Air is also very weak unless you are running a scepter build. “We all know scepter isnt good for team comp” Now what does that leave us with? Fire, the only trait line we have that does damage. Nerf fire then what do you have? Anet made the mistake with forcing Ele to have to trait in water and Arcana. They have to go together the way Precison and Ferocity does on a burst build. So yeah d/d ele has very high burn damage. Ele cant apply any other condi pressure other than burn. I bet all the pros just frown when they read these petty forums about daily nerfs…. I wonder what the next class the community is going to whine about after Ele is finally nerfed back to the 2 year ago

most of those pros you refer to also run 2 ele teams, that kind of shows you what and how they think of elementalist, it’s that strong – they’re not doing that because it’s anything but the most top tier class right now.

anybody top tier except phantaram will explicitly tell you d/d ele is too strong right now and even he says they’re really strong on teams right now. even people who used to main other classes moving to elementalist (wakkey, etc) will tell you the same.

d/d cele ele is super strong, it just needs to be figured out how to tone down without destroying other builds more than they already are.

scepter needs some minor buffs , staff is kind of fine albeit there’s really no condi meta now so you dont need to really bring it except to WvW zerg fights and it’s really good in PvE.

I agree with the sentiment, and where you think the (hopefully inevitable) nerf needs to go, but I don’t think that Anet will split the trait, now that they’ve pretty much rolled all the CDR traits into other ones.
And as always, any power taken away from cantrips needs to be added to glyphs, conjures, or signets (arcanes are okay, and while still weak are not as bad as the other three), because frankly I’d like some choice in what utilities to run.

Ele, ele, ele’s….wuta bout us mesmer…….nerfing ele’s is all you talk about. Us mesmers feeling left out. wanna more nerfing love to…

blitzkrieg.2451:

Lol standard d/d cele is the only roaming ele build people run , nobody runs focus because it’s such a situational close combat weapon it’s better for node battles on point though you sacrifice burning damage (hint hint) and dmg for defensive utility and some cc. Condi burn d/d duelist builds are insane, but again this game isn’t balanced around 1on1s so it’s irrelevant. Let’s also not forget going full condi just doesn’t work in PvP. You need cele or greater direct dmg amulets to compete now as sustain needed for full condi to actually work is non-existent with the burst damage available now.

Eles aren’t focusing on burns when going cele it just happens.. Most of the burn damage is passive icing on the cake to the survivability and direct damage at 20+ might lol. Burn ele DOES focus on burn while trying to run a build that has no sustain , namely carrion – but in WvW yes ele burn build with dire is really strong.

This is for the d/d cele meta buildin PvP:

3 Reasons why ele is insanely strong offensive wise now and also make it good defensively are very obvious.

1. Burn damage, cele with 20+ might which is the easiest thing to do in a fight is absolutely broken with the survivability you get and coupled with BS / DB you get high dmg output with burn dmg close to that of a carrion amulet user.

The burn application from almost everything on ele is 3 stacks of burning minimum. This needs to be brought down to 1-2 stacks. Especially for passive kitten like CF trait and things like ring of fire because it’s cooldown is low. Either do or double the cooldown of ring of fire and drop CF trait burn duration to a much lower duration than it currently is.

SOMETHING needs to be done with the burn application stacks of elementalist though before doing anything to it’s survivability.

2. Blinding Ashes – You say it’s weak, but it’s actually really not and is probably one of the best traits ele has for 1on1s now (Phanta far pushes). Good timed blinds while in fire allow you to be very offensive and wreck offensive flow of other players and BA is also on a low ICD that it actually is quite good when you pair it with CF trait / CF utility / fire attunement skills.

3. 3 trait lines now. Fire completely replaced air. Why? The entire line is built around might stacking, burn damage and blinding people and a 33% reduction on those very burning skills like RoF and Drake’s breath.

Anybody who is defending burn dmg on elementalist right now is just completely oblivious and very obviously dodging an obvious nerf to their build / class that is very needed. It’s simply out of control right now.

You either do 2 things:

1. Nerf burn damage across the board

2. Nerf elementalist application across the board by stacks and/or duration

Burn guardians have next to no survivability and only work when nuking you with burns and like I said, focus on burns.

Elementalist get it added in as icing on the cake of their survivability and direct damage with Cele. You have to remember their dmg coefficients are higher than guardians on dagger skills so it goes perfectly with , yet again, getting 20+ might and using those very skills.

This post pretty much nails it.

The burn itself isn’t the problem. It’s the burn added on top of a build that already had immensely high sustainability to begin with.

Sigh. Why? why? why?