Guild Wars 2

Everyone has their own perspective of what OP is.

I think a consolidated thread for people to post their perspectives instead of whining in different places cannot be horrible. It allows for people to be able to discuss strategy around it for class by class in the nature of sPvP.

Please give details as to why you find something unbalanced. Although the game is balanced around 5v5 it is ok to post 1v1 issues as well.

Please do not call people bad, it’s just rude. There are cases where it is a L2P issue but that’s the point of the threat to help people “L2P” vs things they perceive as OP.

Personally I start off with tanky BM ranger and Phantasm Mesmer.

But I only find BM ranger a problem with my shatter mesmer(my main), they seem to out heal all my damage, and if they have a tanky pet like dog it’s really hard to get through, not to mention a steady stream of constant damage and as a glass cannon you can’t really take that for to long and live.

Now phantasm mesmer. I have Problem with this no matter what I use unless I counter it with phantasm my self. Tanky builds will last a while but it still feels like a long draw out fight going towards my death. They have 3 phantasms that do more damage than a full necro minion master army, and are super tanky. if that wasn’t enough they also give mes constant regen and some builds protection every 15 seconds (after nerf) multiple solo combo fields from just throwing stuff down. this is in push 3 buttons and win territory. (Takes more than that but I’m just being dramatic.)

Advice?

Thief bursts. They’re invisible and in less than 1 second, you’re downed. No time to react, just time to die. I know everyone whines about thieves, they’re mostly fine, just should not have the ability to fully down someone at full health from invisible mode. Sure, I can down someone at full health SOMETIMES with bulls/frenzy/100b – but you can see me coming. You can see me rush at you with bulls, and start crazily throwing around a giant sword.

So basically what I’m saying here is the thief should not be allowed such a big burst AND have the ability to be invisible the entire time.

Daishi.6027:

………
Please give details as to why you find something unbalanced. Although the game is balanced around 5v5 it is ok to post 1v1 issues as well.
….

before u can balance around 5vs5 u need to balance 1vs1.. or at least block certain build compositions or else no matter what u try the game will always be unbalanced

example:
so lets say a certain necro-build beats all other builds in a 1vs1.. yeah u can still say its a teamgame and it should be balanced around 5vs5.. but what happens if 5 necs of that build meet a other build composition? i guess its still unbalanced. u can then try to balance around 5vs5 with that build and all other possible build compositions. but that are 390625 possible compositions regarding profession only for 1 team.
so good luck balancing this
but if u balance 1vs1 ur job is so much easier.

Shanks R Us.2489:

Thief bursts. They’re invisible and in less than 1 second, you’re downed. No time to react, just time to die. I know everyone whines about thieves, they’re mostly fine, just should not have the ability to fully down someone at full health from invisible mode. Sure, I can down someone at full health SOMETIMES with bulls/frenzy/100b – but you can see me coming. You can see me rush at you with bulls, and start crazily throwing around a giant sword.

So basically what I’m saying here is the thief should not be allowed such a big burst AND have the ability to be invisible the entire time.

1 simple solutation that would help a lot with that burst builds are castbars. if u has the thiefs selected u can see his casts and dodge and dont need spyglass for asura thiefs at the possible range of shadowstep or stealth. that would help alot against other “op” 2. it would reducing the learning curve and would dont hurt “pro” who are playing with spyglass and has remembered all animation regardless how tiny or duplicate they are.

hooma.9642:

but if u balance 1vs1 ur job is so much easier.

i don’t get it. how can u balance burst, dps, healing, tanking,condition damage and all the other stuff the game has in 1v1?
have you ever hear of “supporting”? there are certain classes which are “OP” because of their supporting skills. other classes are not.
if you stop use your tunneled vision about 1v1 = balance the game and start to see the game balanced for XvX maybe you stop post this BS.
ps: onestly game should not be balanced around XvX , but around “three point cap map”

Shukran.4851:

hooma.9642:

but if u balance 1vs1 ur job is so much easier.

i don’t get it. how can u balance burst, dps, healing, tanking,condition damage and all the other stuff the game has in 1v1?
have you ever hear of “supporting”? there are certain classes which are “OP” because of their supporting skills. other classes are not.
if you stop use your tunneled vision about 1v1 = balance the game and start to see the game balanced for XvX maybe you stop post this BS.
ps: onestly game should not be balanced around XvX , but around “three point cap map”

u know whats funny? u has a tunnelvision. i hasnt sayed the balancing should stop after 1vs1…. thats that what u want read. i has sayed that 1vs1 should be the ground to build balancing on.
balancing dont mean profession x beats profession y. there are more aspects of just be death or not.

hooma.9642:

Shukran.4851:

hooma.9642:

but if u balance 1vs1 ur job is so much easier.

i don’t get it. how can u balance burst, dps, healing, tanking,condition damage and all the other stuff the game has in 1v1?
have you ever hear of “supporting”? there are certain classes which are “OP” because of their supporting skills. other classes are not.
if you stop use your tunneled vision about 1v1 = balance the game and start to see the game balanced for XvX maybe you stop post this BS.
ps: onestly game should not be balanced around XvX , but around “three point cap map”

u know whats funny? u has a tunnelvision. i hasnt sayed the balancing should stop after 1vs1…. thats that what u want read. i has sayed that 1vs1 should be the ground to build balancing on.
balancing dont mean profession x beats profession y. there are more aspects of just be death or not.

more funny is the more i read your previous post the more i feel you lack coherence.
but nvm.

game would be balanced for me if they just remove burst and tankyness. i want a game of dps only.

hooma.9642:

…
before u can balance around 5vs5 u need to balance 1vs1.. ….

so much to coherence

ok u say no balancing 1vs1. only 5vs5
ok we one team has 390625 possible compositions of professions.
so 390625×390625 for a match = 152587890625 only for profession
so then comes all possible weapon combinations, all possible utility combinations and all possible trait combinations.

why u dont ask Anet if they hire u.. i guess if they would balance this way we have a balanced game in 1000000000 years.

hooma.9642:

hooma.9642:

…
before u can balance around 5vs5 u need to balance 1vs1.. ….

so much to coherence

ok u say no balancing 1vs1. only 5vs5
ok we one team has 390625 possible compositions of professions.
so 390625×390625 for a match = 152587890625 only for profession
so then comes all possible weapon combinations, all possible utility combinations and all possible trait combinations.

why u dont ask Anet if they hire u.. i guess if they would balance this way we have a balanced game in 1000000000 years.

copy , please, where i wrote about balancing 5v5, maybe u stopper reading too early

The lack of roles in this game most likely makes it insanely difficult to balance. Whereas with other MMOs where pretty much every class is either running damage spec, heal spec or flag carrier spec, the possibilities are much more open in this game which is good and bad at the same time. On my Engi I find mesmers to be intolerable in most situations, but with my power Necro they’re hardly ever a problem. IMO a profession that can do everything with one build is grounds for OP. I think of ele’s that are able to do really good sustained damage while giving group buffs and being extremely difficult to kill. One could also argue our favorite whipping boys, mesmers. With a phantasm build I used forever ago, I had access to 3 solid damaging ‘pets’ that were not terribly easy to down quickly that I could reactivate quickly, and they were giving me health regen, increased damage, swiftness etc, also making it hard for enemies to target me, in addition to boon strippage/condition removal, a teleport/stun break, invisibility, invulnerability (both from sword 2 and the F4 skill), 2 dazes, a knockback, a cripple, a cripple/immobolize, vulnerability and an AoE of 10 seconds of the difficult to counter Quickness. I’m not going to say that it’s terribly broken, it just seems like a lot of tools to have in 1 build that would take me multiple builds of another class to get near the same amount of options in addition to solid damage. Things may have changed since I played a mesmer, as it was a few months ago, so this may have been fixed, no clue. I think for a profession/build to be OP in my opinion, it would be having extreme versatility with no/hardly any penalty for it. Just my 2 cents.

1. Thief. Insane burst combined with the ability to disappear. There is a reason you see more of these than any other class in spvp. People love to faceroll and always have.

2. Mesmer. burst/survivability. There is a reason this is the the class you see more frequently than anything other than thieves.

3. D/D elementalist. Great mobility, good burst, great survivability, great cc all in one build. The FOTM right now.

The above 2 1/4 classes are ezmode. In pvp you are playing from the ladies’ tees.

4. Warriors are in a good place, they are strong but I don’t believe they are OP.

5. Guardians, don’t think they are as strong as warriors but still in a good place.

6. Rangers, definitely not as strong as a Warrior, need to work harder for kills, but ok.

In my opinion the above classes are in good shape but just not as good as the top tier.

7. Necro, definitely need to work a lot harder with this class to do well.

8. Engineer, the weakest class in pvp.

The above two classes are definitely a challenge to play well.

So like every other mmo to date there are imbalances. I hope Anet works on them.

Shanks R Us.2489:

Thief bursts. They’re invisible and in less than 1 second, you’re downed. No time to react, just time to die. I know everyone whines about thieves, they’re mostly fine, just should not have the ability to fully down someone at full health from invisible mode. Sure, I can down someone at full health SOMETIMES with bulls/frenzy/100b – but you can see me coming. You can see me rush at you with bulls, and start crazily throwing around a giant sword.

So basically what I’m saying here is the thief should not be allowed such a big burst AND have the ability to be invisible the entire time.

Couldn’t agree more… Warriors are fine just because you can see them and most of the time react. Thieves are like, even more damage than warriors, but you never see them coming no time to react.

I’ll rate them as well from op to need buff in my opinion:

1. Elementalist – having extra 10 skills, very stong (maybe too strong utility like mist) they are too versatile. High healing, aoe, movement cc… something has to be toned down.

2. Guardian – I put them number 2 simply because pvp revolv around holding position, and many guardian skills seems to be made just to do that. You need lots of time to take down guardian, and by the time u doing that hes backup coming to clean you up.

3. Thief – I’d say toning down their dmg would do the job. Many people complaining they are dropping people too fast, and I have to agree.

4. Mesmer – I think mesmers are actually fine. There are 2 skills that should be removed or reworked for spvp, portal and time warp. Other then those 2 obviously op skills, I think mesmers are most fun class to fight against.

5. Necro – I have to say this is what I believe is balanced class. They have weaknesses, they have their strong points and overall balanced out.

6. Ranger – Hard to say, because on every decent ranger, I’ve run into 10 people who had no idea what they’re doing. I’d say improving their pet skills would probably balance them out.

7/8. Warrior/Engineer – In my opinion warrior is too simple, too predictable. Where they gave for example extra 10 skills to ele, extra 3 passive + skill to guardian, well they gave 2 extra crappy skills to warriors. Adrenalin skills are just so weak compared to other class utility, evisc is one example of decent one. But then again just imagine guardian sharing block to whole team with 1 button. I guess they wanted to compensate because warrior have huge chunk of hp, which melt down like paper anyways.
Engineer is kind of enigma to me still. Didn’t have trouble against them on any of my toons, there were some decent ones I fought against, but overall I think they should be improved.

Btw I’m rank 23, with over 100 games in tpvp, not too much experienced but this is what i feel about balance.

Duncanmix.5238:

I’ll rate them as well from op to need buff in my opinion:

1. Elementalist – having extra 10 skills, very stong (maybe too strong utility like mist) they are too versatile. High healing, aoe, movement cc… something has to be toned down.

2. Guardian – I put them number 2 simply because pvp revolv around holding position, and many guardian skills seems to be made just to do that. You need lots of time to take down guardian, and by the time u doing that hes backup coming to clean you up.

3. Thief – I’d say toning down their dmg would do the job. Many people complaining they are dropping people too fast, and I have to agree.

4. Mesmer – I think mesmers are actually fine. There are 2 skills that should be removed or reworked for spvp, portal and time warp. Other then those 2 obviously op skills, I think mesmers are most fun class to fight against.

5. Necro – I have to say this is what I believe is balanced class. They have weaknesses, they have their strong points and overall balanced out.

6. Ranger – Hard to say, because on every decent ranger, I’ve run into 10 people who had no idea what they’re doing. I’d say improving their pet skills would probably balance them out.

7/8. Warrior/Engineer – In my opinion warrior is too simple, too predictable. Where they gave for example extra 10 skills to ele, extra 3 passive + skill to guardian, well they gave 2 extra crappy skills to warriors. Adrenalin skills are just so weak compared to other class utility, evisc is one example of decent one. But then again just imagine guardian sharing block to whole team with 1 button. I guess they wanted to compensate because warrior have huge chunk of hp, which melt down like paper anyways.
Engineer is kind of enigma to me still. Didn’t have trouble against them on any of my toons, there were some decent ones I fought against, but overall I think they should be improved.

Btw I’m rank 23, with over 100 games in tpvp, not too much experienced but this is what i feel about balance.

wait a second. this guy has a clue. thank the lord. But even though i hate to say it. My hunter would probably be at #4. Considering it’s way stronger than my warrior/mesmer/necro. All you need is a shortbow and good survival abilities and the combination does so much sustained damage it’s redicilous. At around 1k dam/1sec

Extra 10 skills? You are wrong, saying that is OP, because, having those ‘extra’ skills is actually our special class skill, just like mesmers have extra 4 skills, warriors and thieves 1 extra skill and so on. On top of that each skill is actually weaker than any of the ‘non op’ classes skills, thats why eles needs them all.

hharry.1967:

Extra 10 skills? You are wrong, saying that is OP, because, having those ‘extra’ skills is actually our special class skill, just like mesmers have extra 4 skills, warriors and thieves 1 extra skill and so on. On top of that each skill is actually weaker than any of the ‘non op’ classes skills, thats why eles needs them all.

Oh hai, engineers would like to have a chat lol. We need to give up a utility slot to have at least as many weapon skills as everyone else. I suppose this is where someone can point out our 80% useless toolbelt skills that are completely tied to our utility/kit choices and can’t be interchanged, but I hardly think it’s adequate. I agree with you that compared to most other classes this is your mechanic and not OP, but coming from the perspective of the other ‘versatile’ (lol) profession, we’re jelly. Like. Really jelly, lol

Many peoples opinions are not very informed. So quantity isnt the way to find truth here.

The performance and representation at the highest levels of play are the best external to opinions data set we can abstract from. Unfortunately since we dont have a ranked system, and that data itself is from informal observations, opinons must crop up.

What people feel is OP however isnt very interesting. What actually is OP is.
Since by defintion most players cluster around average a quantitative approach would get the average point of view. When , in all likehoood the point of view of TOP players is more accurate to what objectively is , and isnt OP.

If most ppl feel class X is OP. But top players have no trouble dealing with class X. Then its matter of factly a L2p issue. However, if top players consistantly have trouble dealing with X, but X takes alot of skill to do. Then it might be OP but not noticed at the lower levels because few players are able to pull it off.

DAta, combined with top level opinions, not quantity reveals balance issues.

Daishi.6027:

Everyone has their own perspective of what OP is.

I think a consolidated thread for people to post their perspectives instead of whining in different places cannot be horrible. It allows for people to be able to discuss strategy around it for class by class in the nature of sPvP.

Please give details as to why you find something unbalanced. Although the game is balanced around 5v5 it is ok to post 1v1 issues as well.

Please do not call people bad, it’s just rude. There are cases where it is a L2P issue but that’s the point of the threat to help people “L2P” vs things they perceive as OP.

Personally I start off with tanky BM ranger and Phantasm Mesmer.

But I only find BM ranger a problem with my shatter mesmer(my main), they seem to out heal all my damage, and if they have a tanky pet like dog it’s really hard to get through, not to mention a steady stream of constant damage and as a glass cannon you can’t really take that for to long and live.

Now phantasm mesmer. I have Problem with this no matter what I use unless I counter it with phantasm my self. Tanky builds will last a while but it still feels like a long draw out fight going towards my death. They have 3 phantasms that do more damage than a full necro minion master army, and are super tanky. if that wasn’t enough they also give mes constant regen and some builds protection every 15 seconds (after nerf) multiple solo combo fields from just throwing stuff down. this is in push 3 buttons and win territory. (Takes more than that but I’m just being dramatic.)

Advice?

On the phantasm Mesmer you are at a higher advantage than other people going against that Mesmer… even if their phantasms are tankier you can still take them out relatively quick. If you are fighting a Mesmer with 3 up (if they are doing it right they will have an iDefender up). Burn the iDefender down fast because if you don’t you are not only doing half the damage to everything else but the phantasms will have full time retal so if you hit anything other than the defender you are getting at least double the amount of retaliation because it is 1 hit of retal against your main target plus another hit of retal from the defender redirecting the damage to itself. And in these situations do not use an AOE because you will essentially kill yourself it will count for 5 different sources of retaliation. So if it is a phantasm army take out the defender then focus the Mesmer. But as long as the defender is up don’t think you can just power through it because you will in all likely hood kill yourself especially if you run GC.

Thieves have to much burst damage in general.

Mesmers have way to many built in, non stat related, defences (ranged, clones, stealth) and these really need to be toned down

Stealth in general is way to strong, sure you can “just aoe” but most builds simply don’t have the aoe to reliably catch a stealth player. Add to this that if the stealth player attacks and doesn’t actually hit anything they stay in stealth. Stealth is simply to forgiving and to easy to use even with some of the bugs it currently has.

Players can res downed players far to fast and to easily (particularly guardians)

Edit: oh yea, and bunker eles… just bunker eles….

hharry.1967:

Extra 10 skills? You are wrong, saying that is OP, because, having those ‘extra’ skills is actually our special class skill, just like mesmers have extra 4 skills, warriors and thieves 1 extra skill and so on. On top of that each skill is actually weaker than any of the ‘non op’ classes skills, thats why eles needs them all.

You’re wasting breath, threads like this are a typical examples of MMO community :" I lose to profession X hence it’s OP", nothing new
If you ask all the people here present, they don’t know more than 3 ele traits, no more than a couple of utilities and absoluley no clue of our skills CD, range and effect; Anet will ( of course) keep ignoring these threads and these people will keep asking for nerfs till the end time .

This is what happen when people rather than QQ on the forums go our of their way to learn the opponent:

Mesmer flawless victory VS “unbeatable” 0/10/0/30/30 ele
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjUtDw8e8kI

This is what happen when people rather than QQ on the forum go out there and experiment, test new builds, learn from every defeat rathet than crying…

Underpowered engineer win 1vs4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX7T5BqQd64

And there are other videos out there showing what each profession is capable of.
The people who post these QQ threads simply want to go out there press 1-2-3 and see people dead at their feet and if that doesn’t happen :" OMG Anet profession X is OP QQ"

Well Every class can do dps but not every class can break cc aswell as others , this is the main problem tbh

But the Strong classes atm are in no order , thief , mesmer , ele , rest are behind

Decrypter.1785:

Well Every class can do dps but not every class can break cc aswell as others , this is the main problem tbh

But the Strong classes atm are in no order , thief , mesmer , ele , rest are behind

…lol

“Underpowered” Axe+shield Warrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXEIcqMcfyw

It’d be faster if people would ditch their attitude and admit they know little about their own profession…but I doubt a video will do the trick, even after a 1000 videos some people would still say :" warrior is UP"

“warrior dmg is very weak "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXs_EY0KSUs

Arheundel.6451:

Decrypter.1785:

Well Every class can do dps but not every class can break cc aswell as others , this is the main problem tbh

But the Strong classes atm are in no order , thief , mesmer , ele , rest are behind

…lol

“Underpowered” Axe+shield Warrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXEIcqMcfyw

It’d be faster if people would ditch their attitude and admit they know little about their own profession…but I doubt a video will do the trick, even after a 1000 videos some people would still say :" warrior is UP"

Dude its easy to scan youtube n find great players face rolling noobz for youre proof , i play a lot of spvp n theose are my opinions , not youtubes

ty tho

Decrypter.1785:

Well Every class can do dps but not every class can break cc aswell as others , this is the main problem tbh

But the Strong classes atm are in no order , thief , mesmer , ele , rest are behind

Ha, if you want to brake out of CC often…what about this?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_breaker#Skills_that_break_stun

You know why? because eles use 3 kittening stun breaker, we don’t get stun breaker on our skills liek thieves for example and our stun breaker got the highest CD across the board, 45s-50s-75s-90s…of course it’s easier to QQ on the forums about stuff you’ve got zero knowledge about
If you want to cleanse conditions often…what about this?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shout
+ soldier runes

“Ha but I want to use frenzy+ 100b QQ”
So pls go and show me how an ele without the right equipment: amulet/runes can become the “godmode” that you people so much complain about, take off the dwaynas runes, take off the cleric amulet, take out signet of restoration and I want to see you guys with ele tanking VS 2+ people!

I want to give you guys my staff build, go out there and play like me, with the same results, after all ele is so much “godmode” that you guys should have zero problems am I right?

Decrypter.1785:

Arheundel.6451:

Decrypter.1785:

Well Every class can do dps but not every class can break cc aswell as others , this is the main problem tbh

But the Strong classes atm are in no order , thief , mesmer , ele , rest are behind

…lol

“Underpowered” Axe+shield Warrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXEIcqMcfyw

It’d be faster if people would ditch their attitude and admit they know little about their own profession…but I doubt a video will do the trick, even after a 1000 videos some people would still say :" warrior is UP"

Dude its easy to scan youtube n find great players face rolling noobz for youre proof , i play a lot of spvp n theose are my opinions , not youtubes

ty tho

Really? Then why the situation change when you complain about other professions?
So people beat you because they use OP professions..not because they’re better than you…that’s kittening convenient….

Ha btw, why don’t you scan youtube and find me these “godmode” ele videos, “unkillable” ele winning vs 4…ha and pls no ridicolous wvwvw videos..between food, different armor stats and more it’d be hard to take you seriously

Honestly youtube videos prove nothing, you can find any profession owning it up. Also I said that list is my opinion, and for sure that’s not proof of balance or imbalance. But word of top teams would mean a lot. I actually agree that their opinion matter the most. Only thing sometimes they would try to hide their real feeling especially if some strategy giving them great results.
But I would ask top teams one question and its related to my list:
If you would have to play match for 1 million dollars against team that is absolutely same skilled as you which composition would you choose:
a) Ele, Guardian, Thief, Mesmer and Necro
b) Warrior, Ranger, Engineer, Mesmer and Necro

It would be interesting to find out opinion of pro teams on this, and % of them choosing answer a.

i will metion two things…

thief, as others say, they are taking ppl down too quickly, combined with stealth, seems to be a bit over the top…

mesmer, portal isnt seen that much as before, time warp is good, but usually you dont have full team fight in spvp, so its not that big problem imo… but what is problem is Deceptive Evasion trait, you know, something is wrong when EVERY mesmer get 1 trait (and its only tier 2), this trait makes shatters OP and mesmers overall survivability too…

Duncanmix.5238:

Honestly youtube videos prove nothing, you can find any profession owning it up. Also I said that list is my opinion, and for sure that’s not proof of balance or imbalance. But word of top teams would mean a lot. I actually agree that their opinion matter the most. Only thing sometimes they would try to hide their real feeling especially if some strategy giving them great results.
But I would ask top teams one question and its related to my list:
If you would have to play match for 1 million dollars against team that is absolutely same skilled as you which composition would you choose:
a) Ele, Guardian, Thief, Mesmer and Necro
b) Warrior, Ranger, Engineer, Mesmer and Necro

It would be interesting to find out opinion of pro teams on this, and % of them choosing answer a.

You know? it’s funny because my team lost to option B and won several times against option A even against teams using double ele bunker.
Between trap ranger, hammer warrior, grenade engineer and freaking wells necro ( not forgetting the usual shatter mesmer) it was extremely hard even for my staff build to last in a team fight, the earth shaker +grenades barrage was ridicolous…see? warrior can sue more than 100b build and do wells, while engineers are a pain in the kitten /p>

Everything can happen in games, but you didn’t answer my question. If you are in top team which composition would you choose? It doesn’t matter what happened to you in some games, what matters is what would top teams choose if they had to play for million or whatever numbers seems high enough to be extra serious.

@ Arheundel go watch more youtube vids then lmao

MaXi.3642:

i will metion two things…

thief, as others say, they are taking ppl down too quickly, combined with stealth, seems to be a bit over the top…

mesmer, portal isnt seen that much as before, time warp is good, but usually you dont have full team fight in spvp, so its not that big problem imo… but what is problem is Deceptive Evasion trait, you know, something is wrong when EVERY mesmer get 1 trait (and its only tier 2), this trait makes shatters OP and mesmers overall survivability too…

But like all classes mesmers can only have 2 dodge rolls in a short period. Also be happy that it is now a major trait. It used to be minor so the Nerf to that was to make it a major one. When people say it needs some sort of cooldown the cooldown for it is the amount of time it takes endurance to refill.

This went pretty much like I thought it would. Civilized discussion about what constitutes being ‘OP’ turns into elitist kitten shows up and tells us all to l2p. Might as well /closethread

Duncanmix.5238:

Everything can happen in games, but you didn’t answer my question. If you are in top team which composition would you choose? It doesn’t matter what happened to you in some games, what matters is what would top teams choose if they had to play for million or whatever numbers seems high enough to be extra serious.

Isn’t the answer obvious? What counts is only who is behind the profession, people think to go in and win because they use 2X profession A or B, these teams which use double ele or guardian, unless you’re good it, you’ll get destroyed no doubt about it.

The question is how much you know about eles to complain about them? I could ask you now few questions that you woudn’t know the answer..and that’s why you lose

Decrypter.1785:

@ Arheundel go watch more youtube vids then lmao

I don’t need..you do need to watch these videos XD

Choops.3710:

This went pretty much like I thought it would. Civilized discussion about what constitutes being ‘OP’ turns into elitist kitten shows up and tells us all to l2p. Might as well /closethread

I bring proofs , evidence of what I’m saying….where is your evidence of these “OP” professions? These threads always end up in the same way lol.
I bring facts and numbers…the opposition brings insults and nothing else, basically once again I have showed everybody how these “OP” threads are nothing more than veiled whine threads by the vocal minority, yeah l2p is always the answer you’ll get anyway…‘cause it’s the truth, if you expect to press 1-2-3 and watch people die at your feet..well wrong game.

Arheundel.6451:

Duncanmix.5238:

Everything can happen in games, but you didn’t answer my question. If you are in top team which composition would you choose? It doesn’t matter what happened to you in some games, what matters is what would top teams choose if they had to play for million or whatever numbers seems high enough to be extra serious.

Isn’t the answer obvious? What counts is only who is behind the profession, people think to go in and win because they use 2X profession A or B, these teams which use double ele or guardian, unless you’re good it, you’ll get destroyed no doubt about it.

The question is how much you know about eles to complain about them? I could ask you now few questions that you woudn’t know the answer..and that’s why you lose

You are dodging my question. Imagine you play vs your clone. This way it would not matter who is behind A or B. It would only matter if A is better or B is better.

About me complaining about ele, I’m very inexperienced player without team. I play tpvp and join random teams. There is no doubt I’m not the best person to talk about balance. I just simply stated my opinion. I expected that people would not agree, while some would agree. Obviously people view things differently.

Arheundel.6451:

Choops.3710:

This went pretty much like I thought it would. Civilized discussion about what constitutes being ‘OP’ turns into elitist kitten shows up and tells us all to l2p. Might as well /closethread

I bring proofs , evidence of what I’m saying….where is your evidence of these “OP” professions? These threads always end up in the same way lol.
I bring facts and numbers…the opposition brings insults and nothing else, basically once again I have showed everybody how these “OP” threads are nothing more than veiled whine threads by the vocal minority, yeah l2p is always the answer you’ll get anyway…‘cause it’s the truth, if you expect to press 1-2-3 and watch people die at your feet..well wrong game.

You don’t bring ‘proofs’ (lol), you bring a crap attitude and a few youtube links. I don’t have evidence, I merely have my opinion, which is what we were doing, sharing our opinions. It’s my opinion that a few builds of ele can pretty much dip in a bit of everything without really being penalized for it. Same thing with mesmers. Again. This is my opinion, so before you get a hard on about how you’re going throw my own words against me, I’m allowed to share my opinion without being crushed under the weight of your tremendous d-baggery. I play an engineer, I’m not looking for the easy faceroll experience or the one that gets me l33t deeps. I played all the classes, engi was the most fun one for me, and I stuck with it. Do I do pretty well in PvP? Yeah, for the most part I would say I do. Do I think that engis are on par with other professions out there? No, I don’t. Again, this is my opinion, but I see match makeups consisting pretty much of 60% mesmers and thieves time and time again, with necros and engis being nowhere near as represented. This could be coincidence that every hotjoin/tourney I’ve played since the game came out has this going for it, or it could be indicative of something else. Just an opinion.

I gave you my answer, since I know how to counter d/d eles playing bunker, I’d use builds which would counter them : hammer warrior-trap ranger-engineer-wells necro-shatter mesmer…it was so easy= lava font+eruption pressure, ele goes water and ele leaves water, frozen ground+shatter = dead bunker ele; or I can call thief, cluster bomb when he leaves water=dead ele.
How many situations do you need?

Choops.3710:

Arheundel.6451:

Choops.3710:

This went pretty much like I thought it would. Civilized discussion about what constitutes being ‘OP’ turns into elitist kitten shows up and tells us all to l2p. Might as well /closethread

I bring proofs , evidence of what I’m saying….where is your evidence of these “OP” professions? These threads always end up in the same way lol.
I bring facts and numbers…the opposition brings insults and nothing else, basically once again I have showed everybody how these “OP” threads are nothing more than veiled whine threads by the vocal minority, yeah l2p is always the answer you’ll get anyway…‘cause it’s the truth, if you expect to press 1-2-3 and watch people die at your feet..well wrong game.

-snip-

Just a barrage of words to say what? That you’ve got attitude and think your opinion is enough to question the balance in this game, well it’s good to see how much respect you’ve got for yourself…but that’s about it, your opinion counts only for you..so tell me again why did you enter in my discussion? Last I’ve checked I definetely wasn’t talking to you

Arheundel.6451:

Choops.3710:

Arheundel.6451:

Choops.3710:

This went pretty much like I thought it would. Civilized discussion about what constitutes being ‘OP’ turns into elitist kitten shows up and tells us all to l2p. Might as well /closethread

I bring proofs , evidence of what I’m saying….where is your evidence of these “OP” professions? These threads always end up in the same way lol.
I bring facts and numbers…the opposition brings insults and nothing else, basically once again I have showed everybody how these “OP” threads are nothing more than veiled whine threads by the vocal minority, yeah l2p is always the answer you’ll get anyway…‘cause it’s the truth, if you expect to press 1-2-3 and watch people die at your feet..well wrong game.

-snip-

Just a barrage of words to say what? That you’ve got attitude and think your opinion is enough to question the balance in this game, well it’s good to see how much respect you’ve got for yourself…but that’s about it, your opinion counts only for you..so tell me again why did you enter in my discussion? Last I’ve checked I definetely wasn’t talking to you

That’s the beauty of the public forums, they’re public. For everyone to talk about things and share their opinions and yes, occasionally question balance. Lolz at me having an attitude. Good show!

Choops.3710:

Arheundel.6451:

Choops.3710:

Arheundel.6451:

Choops.3710:

This went pretty much like I thought it would. Civilized discussion about what constitutes being ‘OP’ turns into elitist kitten shows up and tells us all to l2p. Might as well /closethread

I bring proofs , evidence of what I’m saying….where is your evidence of these “OP” professions? These threads always end up in the same way lol.
I bring facts and numbers…the opposition brings insults and nothing else, basically once again I have showed everybody how these “OP” threads are nothing more than veiled whine threads by the vocal minority, yeah l2p is always the answer you’ll get anyway…‘cause it’s the truth, if you expect to press 1-2-3 and watch people die at your feet..well wrong game.

-snip-

Just a barrage of words to say what? That you’ve got attitude and think your opinion is enough to question the balance in this game, well it’s good to see how much respect you’ve got for yourself…but that’s about it, your opinion counts only for you..so tell me again why did you enter in my discussion? Last I’ve checked I definetely wasn’t talking to you

That’s the beauty of the public forums, they’re public. For everyone to talk about things and share their opinions and yes, occasionally question balance. Lolz at me having an attitude. Good show!

Yeah exactly so what have you got to counter my claims? I was talking to @Duncanmix then you come and start calling me ‘elitist whatever’, unless you’ve got something concrete to say, I’d like you to stay out of the discussion, you can use your ’elitist" titles with someone else

Arheundel.6451:

I gave you my answer, since I know how to counter d/d eles playing bunker, I’d use builds which would counter them : hammer warrior-trap ranger-engineer-wells necro-shatter mesmer…it was so easy= lava font+eruption pressure, ele goes water and ele leaves water, frozen ground+shatter = dead bunker ele; or I can call thief, cluster bomb when he leaves water=dead ele.
How many situations do you need?

Ok so you would choose team B, interesting choice. Btw you cant call thief because there is no thief in team B. Now what I would like to know is, are you part of top team and more important I would need more answers from top teams.
Actually the best thing would be to make PvP league. Something like WvW with tiers. Each tier consist of 5 teams, and maybe 10 tiers. I would like to see what compositions would those teams use.

Duncanmix.5238:

Arheundel.6451:

I gave you my answer, since I know how to counter d/d eles playing bunker, I’d use builds which would counter them : hammer warrior-trap ranger-engineer-wells necro-shatter mesmer…it was so easy= lava font+eruption pressure, ele goes water and ele leaves water, frozen ground+shatter = dead bunker ele; or I can call thief, cluster bomb when he leaves water=dead ele.
How many situations do you need?

Ok so you would choose team B, interesting choice. Btw you cant call thief because there is no thief in team B. Now what I would like to know is, are you part of top team and more important I would need more answers from top teams.
Actually the best thing would be to make PvP league. Something like WvW with tiers. Each tier consist of 5 teams, and maybe 10 tiers. I would like to see what compositions would those teams use.

I’m part of team A as I’m ele, a staff ele or s/d ele and there was a ranger instead than necro, and no I’m no part of any team, I have just got a rich friend list as I join/leave guilds frequently and I end up playing with different teams every day and I change my build to reflect the team I get

Hmmm… lets get back on topic. For the people that think profession X with Y build is OP. Instead of constantly saying L2P (I’m guilty of this I know) Give advice on what you have seen people do to beat you. The people that feel that that profession is OP take the advice go duel a friend on an empty server and try the tactics suggested. Saying this is “OP it needs nerfed” then replying with “IT’S not Op just LTP noob” gets us nowhere. I gave the OP some advice on dealing with a phantasm army Mesmer.
@Arheundel I am guessing you run D/D ele. Instead of saying L2P to people tell the people the strategies that others have used to beat you. Or what mess up’s you might make and others might make to watch out for.

This thread proves that eles can 1v4. One ele is trying to defend his profession against 4 others who are claiming it’s OP.

I lost your train of thought when you suggested a grenade engineer as a counter to a triple-cantrip ele, though. Our only weapon against eles is pretty much autoattack, because we don’t have the lockdown to land our own burst. We do all right in 2v1’s when we have a teammate to do lockdown for us, though. I’m not sure if demonstrating that engineers do well against eles when it’s 2v1 is a very good way to argue your point, though.

daydream.2938:

Many peoples opinions are not very informed. So quantity isnt the way to find truth here.

The performance and representation at the highest levels of play are the best external to opinions data set we can abstract from. Unfortunately since we dont have a ranked system, and that data itself is from informal observations, opinons must crop up.

What people feel is OP however isnt very interesting. What actually is OP is.
Since by defintion most players cluster around average a quantitative approach would get the average point of view. When , in all likehoood the point of view of TOP players is more accurate to what objectively is , and isnt OP.

If most ppl feel class X is OP. But top players have no trouble dealing with class X. Then its matter of factly a L2p issue. However, if top players consistantly have trouble dealing with X, but X takes alot of skill to do. Then it might be OP but not noticed at the lower levels because few players are able to pull it off.

DAta, combined with top level opinions, not quantity reveals balance issues.

Yeah .. but even top-level players can be biased (they are human, and they too have reasons to be biased). Not to mention, that they learn to live with certain aspects, since they want to play now or else use the current strongest combo (and thereby exposing themselves to bias). Then comes the issue of deciding who is a top level player … and many of the top level players aren’t very vocal on the forums.

I agree, that quantity in 8vs8 or free tpvp doesn’t represent the current highest amount of coordination. But you have to ask yourself what is the desired correct measure. Is it really the best of the best?

Let me grab an example: In another game I played a stealth-class considered grossly OP by the majority. The best guilds couldn’t care less about me, since they always had a 2 dedicated CC’ers around their healers. While me and my partner had fun tearing the less organized people apart, we couldn’t touch the best guild on the server … all the rest were peace of pie. They were not bad players .. they just didn’t have 1-2 dedicated CC’ers of that particular class. In the end my stealth-toon was nerfed to oblivion and became a joke. I was upset; even more since it opened up for an even more OP class.

What I am aiming at is: A top player is not alone … a top player is working within a context.

And I have to say … how can you say this in all seriousness: "What people feel is OP however isnt very interesting. What actually is OP is. "? I find all peoples opinion interesting .. some are based on ignorance, but once you have a dialogue, you can enlighten them (or they you) .. or you can share pov’s. And in the last sentence it almost sounds like you have godly knowledge and knows what is right and wrong.

I should mention, that I would have the same starting point as you (I would most likely be sure to have some sort of variation among the classes of the various players and I would also include the devs naturally) … but I would choose my words very differently.

NevirSayDie.6235:

This thread proves that eles can 1v4. One ele is trying to defend his profession against 4 others who are claiming it’s OP.

I lost your train of thought when you suggested a grenade engineer as a counter to a triple-cantrip ele, though. Our only weapon against eles is pretty much autoattack, because we don’t have the lockdown to land our own burst. We do all right in 2v1’s when we have a teammate to do lockdown for us, though. I’m not sure if demonstrating that engineers do well against eles when it’s 2v1 is a very good way to argue your point, though.

Your only weapon against eles is your auto-attack? There are videos of engineers holding off multiple opponents in WvWvW , sPvP and tPvP; videos of engineers dealing 16k dmg burst in 1s…and your only weapon against eles is auto-attack because as engineer YOU LACK CC?

…………………………………………………….-_-…………………………………………………………………..

In my opinion:
1-3 are OP
4-6 are Balanced and just need bug fixes
7-8 need work

1: Elementalist: They have access to every single boon and with the proper traits/runes they can maintain every one except retaliation. Add this to their excellent mobility, insane utilities, their decent AoE pressure, CC’s and their ability to tank 3 people at once just to run away shortly after when they’re time is up. Kinda OP.

2: Guardian: Another class with access to many many boons. Not as much as Ele’s but they still get access to the most important ones, I.E Protection, Regen, Vigor. Making them insane at point holding while still being able to support their team extremely well with a fair amount of CC’s, their virtues, and decent damage thanks to their melee nature.

3. Mesmers: Portal alone is enough to keep them into the top 4, but portal aside this class still has access to everything that a good class NEEDS. They can maintain a decent amount of boons, not perma like the two listed above, but enough to make a huge difference. They have a plethora of survivabilty mechanics thanks to Distortion, blurred frenzy, and their multitude of blink type effects. CC is practically worthless on a good mesmer which makes their glass like issue a non-isssue. They also have the second most CC’s of any class.

4: Necromancer- The necromancer is at the four spot only because of the current meta, they are the only class(other then mesmer sometimes) that can make a good elementalist die when only facing 2 people. They provide good AoE pressure, and have DS as a psuedo protection buff which is good cause necros don’t have access to many boons. Their DS #3 is IMO the best skill a necro has and mastering its use separates a good necro from a bad necro. Corrupt Boon is an excellent skill in its own right to counter the powerful boon spam most classes are capable of.

5: Thief: Fast, strong, and a pain in the kitten to kill. Not much else to say about this class currently. They either auto gib you, die, or run within the first 10 seconds of the match. but their ability to gank glass cannons while they’re beating away on your bunker keeps them competetive.

6: Engineer: Basically what an elementalist would be if you took away their incredible utilities and mobility. A fairly balanced class that could use some improvements especially in the toolbelt skills. Makes a good tank atm but their glass build is 2 squishy compared to the mesmer or thiefs glass to make that a viable option.

7: Warrior: An extremely powerful class that just doesn’t work for whatever reason. Maybe its the fact that they have next to no condition removal. Or maybe cause they have no access to protection or regen (banners aside) Maybe its cause they are very straightforward and easy to predict. Whatever the reason, they need a slight buff in pvp and a huge nerf in PvE but that’s neither here nor there.

8: Ranger- Every build they have is terrible (minus 1) every utility skill they have is next to worthless, Spirits are a joke, traps are average at best, they have 1 stun breaker available in utilities. Their signets are worthless unless you put 30 into the power tree and they still have 60+ sec Cd’s. Shouts are buggy, and don’t do enough to warrant bringing them. They need a lot of help in the utility department. But all that aside if you look at their best build ATM, S/D -Gs or Shortbow has very very little damage except from their pet. Focus their pet and you shut this build down. They lose 80% of their dmg, lose access to their quickness, lose access to two blinds, and are only left with an average tank build that generally loses the point over time anyway thanks to hornet strike.

slowpoke.1894:

1. Thief. Insane burst combined with the ability to disappear. There is a reason you see more of these than any other class in spvp. People love to faceroll and always have.

2. Mesmer. burst/survivability. There is a reason this is the the class you see more frequently than anything other than thieves.

3. D/D elementalist. Great mobility, good burst, great survivability, great cc all in one build. The FOTM right now.

The above 2 1/4 classes are ezmode. In pvp you are playing from the ladies’ tees.

4. Warriors are in a good place, they are strong but I don’t believe they are OP.

5. Guardians, don’t think they are as strong as warriors but still in a good place.

6. Rangers, definitely not as strong as a Warrior, need to work harder for kills, but ok.

In my opinion the above classes are in good shape but just not as good as the top tier.

7. Necro, definitely need to work a lot harder with this class to do well.

8. Engineer, the weakest class in pvp.

The above two classes are definitely a challenge to play well.

So like every other mmo to date there are imbalances. I hope Anet works on them.

YOu see more thiefs in hotjoin. You dont see more thiefs in paid tournies. IN paids eles are probalby the most represented class.
So yes, amongst the bads who play hotjoins, thiefs are considered OP.
amongst good players, they arent.

Also, warriors are in good place? they have 1 viable tourny build. And barely at that.
Thiefs are fine, warriors need a buff. Guaridans at 5? they are on every competitive team and by far the strongest bunkers.

See hotjoin opinions? you might as well ask someone playing another game to contribute there opinion.

jportell.2197:

Hmmm… lets get back on topic. For the people that think profession X with Y build is OP. Instead of constantly saying L2P (I’m guilty of this I know) Give advice on what you have seen people do to beat you. The people that feel that that profession is OP take the advice go duel a friend on an empty server and try the tactics suggested. Saying this is “OP it needs nerfed” then replying with “IT’S not Op just LTP noob” gets us nowhere. I gave the OP some advice on dealing with a phantasm army Mesmer.
@Arheundel I am guessing you run D/D ele. Instead of saying L2P to people tell the people the strategies that others have used to beat you. Or what mess up’s you might make and others might make to watch out for.

There are dozen of videos and multipages threads on how to deal with each profession…have you ever heard the term “spoon-feed”?…yeah

BUNKERS! its bullkitten! its pvp (player bs player) not player futily not hurting other play who holds the point with his team, who occasionaly gets a few kills on your team.
theres way too many tank/self heals on guardians and eles.
i understand their support and ave durable options but its too far in pvp they need to be nerfed.
swap out there defensive skills for more damage skills.
OR
add a feature where protection/regen/aegis last half as long within 5 metres of a point.or somthing similar, maybe extra damage in points?