Guild Wars 2

This thread is about how thieves have constantly been nerfed dating all they way back from september, and people still ask for nerfs. This or that is OP etc. And how there was a lack of buffs to “buffer” the nerfs they have constantly revieved.

Let’s go all the way back to the beginning with “2222” spam. That was great.

September 14th Patch

Thief
Heartseeker: Reduced damage of the 100%-50% threshold by 20%. Damage thresholds changed. Old: 100%-66%, 66%-33%, 33%-0%. New: 100%-50%, 50%-25%, 25%-0%.

This to me is more of a rework and Heartseeker continued to do it’s intended job. It was reworked this way so people would not spam it (people still do).

October 7th Patch

Thief
Pistol Whip: Reduced damage by 15%.
Basilisk Venom: Increased stun duration to 1.5 seconds. Stun breakers now work on this skill.

Again another thief skill that was very strong but we are later to find out that this was only because it was hasted. With out 100% quickness, PW is very weak, and does very lack luster damage. This is the first buff that counter-parted a nerf for thieves.

During this time there were more than just S/P thieves D/D thieves were very popular.

November 15th Patch

Dancing Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 50%.
Blinding Powder: This skill’s recharge has been reduced from 60 seconds to 40 seconds.
Smoke Screen: This skill’s height has been increased to help it absorb projectiles.

Tactical Strike: This skill’s damage has been increased by 10% in all formats. This skill’s daze duration has been reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP.
Leeching Venoms: This trait now scales based on the thief’s power.
Cluster Shot: This skill’s damage is reduced by 15% in PvP.

Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.
Scorpion Wire: This skill’s range has been increased to 1200.

Shadow Trap: This skill no longer shadowsteps the thief when the trap is triggered. This skill now has two additional abilities: The first ability becomes available when Shadow Trap is cast and will destroy the current trap. The second ability, Shadow Pursuit, becomes available when an enemy triggers the trap. The thief may choose to activate this ability and shadowstep to the enemy that triggered the trap. If this ability is not activated after 10 seconds, the ability will fade and Shadow Trap will be available.

The big one, the patch every thief dreads, /D R.I.P. This patch included some decent side buffs but were highly overlooked due to C&D and Dancing Dagger being completely killed.

A thief (Caed) made D/P very popular for thieves to fall back on for burst, and most jumped on it immediately. There was a daze build that some thieves ran that was also killed (it was not op).

In the midst of patches coming out players are still complaining about how overpowered this new thief weapon set is.

December 14th Patch

Whirling Axe: This skill can now be cancelled by other skills.
Fear (Stolen item— Skull): This skill now works like the warrior skill “Fear Me.” It will
Instinctual Response: Now triggers at 10% damage instead of 20%.

Ricochet: Increased bounce chance from 5% to 20%.
Fleet Shadow: Increased move speed from 33% to 50%.

Slowed Pulse: This can now trigger every 20 seconds instead of every 30.
Pistol Mastery: Increased damage from 5% to 10%
.
Improvisation: Now also increased damage with environment weapons by 10%.

Piercing Shot: This skill is no longer able to fire at enemies behind the player.

Whoa! Buffs? Oh, too…traits, that a thief won’t use. But seriously, improvisation was a trait that never really stuck out anyone, until as of late.

Most of these traits are in SA or Acro. And Anet gave players zero reasons for us to go into these trait lines. Playing D/P, you normally are 25/30/0/0/15, lately some take 15 into Acro for Fleet of Shadow, or Power of Intertia. Pistol mastery does nothing, as P/P and P/D is still suffering.Also they cleaned up some of the clunkiness with the stolen items.

Again in between patches players complain. “Thief spike damage too high!” “11k Backstab, look at this screen shot”

Shadow Shot: This ability now allows the player to move while executing dagger
strike portion of the ability.

Venomous Aura: Activating a venom skill with this trait equipped will now briefly display an indicator ring around the thief.
Withdraw: This ability now scales 20% better with healing power. Base healing per level has increased by 10%.

These are nice changes as being able to see the aura for venom share is very helpful. Oh and the withdraw buff made it more like-able. And using shadow shot now while moving made D/P more fluid.

February 26th Patch

Caltrops:
Reduced duration from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.

Now indicates its radius.
Steal skill: No longer initiates autoattacks.

Uncatchable trait:
Now displays an active combat area to both allies and enemies.
Increased effective radius by 50%

R.I.P any hopes of a condition build in tPvP. Steal not initiating auto’s was probably a bug more than anything. But I am more glad they gave us both sides of the spectrum here. They started to break a trend.

“I feel bad for beginner players that get bursted by that combo, and they don’t even know what to do. It’s so sad…”

April 30th Patch

Thief
Skills that must be performed from stealth are now labeled as “Stealth Attack.”
Vigorous Recovery: Improved accuracy of description.

Cloak and Dagger skill: Now functions with the Hidden Killer trait.
Needle Trap skill: Removed the duration skill fact as being misleading.
Shadow Shot skill: The projectile portion is now unblockable.

Choking Gas skill: Added an Unblockable skill fact to reflect functionality.

Flanking Strike skill:
Now evades and delivers one strike instead of delivering two attacks.
Removed boon removal.
Reduced initiative cost from 4 to 3.
Now toggles for 5 seconds to a second skill, Larcenous Strike, if the attack hits an enemy.
Improved reliability of flanking strike.
Larcenous Strike: Deliver a quick strike that steals up to two boons from an enemy. Costs 1 initiative.
Larcenous Strike, Stab skills: Reduced aftercast by 0.5 seconds.

Mug trait: Can no longer critically hit. Now heals the thief from a range of 1980 health
to 2700 health.

Leeching Venoms trait: Increased the damage scale from power by 33%. Increased range from 325-400 to 325-425.

Signet of Agility skill: Increased passive stat bonus by 100%.
Assassin’s Signet skill: Increased passive stat bonus by 100%.
Revealed effect: Reverted duration to 3 seconds in PvE.
Trick Shot skill: First arrow is no longer heat-seeking.
Smoke Screen skill: No longer destroys unblockable missiles.

Haste skill:
Increased duration by 1 second.
Players now regenerate endurance at 50% effectiveness (increased from 0%) when under the effects of this skill.

This is what we are all here to talk about right? How OP S/D is now? And how thief has more than one build. The thief is not a one trick pony. Meanwhile still being pigeonholed into traits, and utilities. The thief has D/P which in the April 30th patch the mug burst was brought down to cater to beginner players. I don’t know which player said that quote on SOTG, but someone did.

This basically brings us up to speed and where thieves are at now, besides the teleport changes (which effected everyone).

So now I only ask Anet, can we stop nerfing thieves and let the player base learn to play the game? This is a model that many eSport developing game studios have used. If you don’t let the metagame work/shift there won’t be one. Constant buffs/nerfs to ANY class does not help the game.

TL;DR If you are complaining about something please take the time to learn to play. Thieves or any class, have been nerfed/buffed repeatedly and if the game follows this path we will never see class balance, build diversity, or eSports.

The Assassin’s Sigent change is not in their update notes anymore/anywhere. I don’t know, but that was more of a change than a nerf anyways.

I only wanted to post about the faults in there balance process, with the balance patches. This is why the post is so long. There is a TL;DR.

KINJAX!!! DUUUUDDDDEEEEE…!

Nice post, liked it. It’ll unfortunately bring some random QQ’ers, but hey… Y’know how it rolls.

Anyways, I’d like to add:

ANet: rather than nerfing stuff because people are crying “OP”, let the metagame work itself out. If +50% of people are playing thief, and you have some real mathematics backing the idea that thief is “OP”, then nerfs may be justified (although even then, I would rather see buffs to other classes). But nerfing everything into the ground makes for a stale game.

Hi Arctu, and I wholeheartedly agree with that kind of method. To this very day, people cry OP on thieves, whether it’s 3333 spam or 2222 spam.

Anet really needs to take a step back and pick which crowd of players they want to listen to.

If the goal is to make it easier for newer players to fight thieves, then they’ve been hitting in all the wrong places. The biggest issue new players have in games is dealing with stealth characters; long duration stealth in particular causes a lot of problems. Thief can gain stealth for unreasonably long amounts of time, and yet this is almost never, ever hit. They need to bring it down (especially Shadow Refuge) if they really wanna fix the cause and not just the symptoms.

violentlycar.5267:

If the goal is to make it easier for newer players to fight thieves, then they’ve been hitting in all the wrong places. The biggest issue new players have in games is dealing with stealth characters; long duration stealth in particular causes a lot of problems. Thief can gain stealth for unreasonably long amounts of time, and yet this is almost never, ever hit. They need to bring it down (especially Shadow Refuge) if they really wanna fix the cause and not just the symptoms.

That was their intent with the last “Balance” Patch. They changed mug so it did not crit to nerf burst, because newer players did not know how to deal with it. I should have made it more clear somehow that this was more aimed at tPvP. Stealth is not that big of a deal in tPvP, however you are still right new players have do not know how to deal with stealth at all.

Again, I don’t think this is something that needs to be nerfed because they don’t know how to play against it. That would be a learn to play thing.

In my opinion, all the nerfs were right. So are the buff (excluding FS).

1. Pistol Whip: it isn’t all about damage. Pistol Whip has also two utilities. It was able to deal the DPS of Hundred Blades (obviously considering its shorter duration) while having an evade and a stun in it. That skill pretty much had anything. They decided to nerf the damage while mantaining its utility. Now the damage of Pistol Whip isn’t amazing, just average, but the utilities make the difference. An all-in-one skill isn’t healthy in any skillbar.

2. Dancing Dagger: that skill was ridiculous prior nerf. A couple of DD thrown at someone ressing another player were able to completely wipe them both. They nerfed the damage to be consistent on what the skill was supposed to be: an utility, a snare.
It is pretty useful against the one who are running away, especially when you consider that D/D lacks any form of movement impariment skills. The fact that the damage is insignificant now doesn’t mean that the skill hasn’t it’s use.

3. Cloak and Dagger: pretty much what I’ve said about DD. It is an utility and dealt also amazing damage. It was also the skill present in the backstab combo. Considering that an UTILITY SKILL was able to deal 5k+ damage prior the nerf, the damage adjusting seems fair to me.

4. Caltrops: be serious. That skill allowed to wipe an entire group of enemies while staying in stealth. It was incredibly easy to play and incredibly effective plus, when traited, any thief would be able to mantain caltrops on the floor almost 100% uptime. Adding this with the uncatchable trait, any bleed thief would wipe you while not going out of stealth a single time. The nerf was needed and thank god it came.

5. Mug: that skill dealt 5k damage instantly. Coupled with the backstab combo, any thief would be capable to deal 11k+ damage in a fraction of a second and then finish the target spamming heartseeker. That was sick. While they did not made Mug useless (2k heal is useless?), they just decreased its offensive capability (which thief surely doesn’t lack) while giving some devensive use.

Now Flanking Strike is too much effective. It completely punish the use of ANY BOON in this game and some professions completely rely on them to be effective.
An S/D thief has more boons of a Guardian, an Ele and more might stacks than an HGH engi.

Nerfs are as needed as buffs. If ArenaNet left the game as it is, we would see only the same overperforming profession in both PvP, WvWvW and PvE, killing, in fact, any form of game variety.

So stop cry about nerfs and get used to play into a balanced environment.

sorrow.2364:

In my opinion, all the nerfs were right. So are the buff (excluding FS).

1. Pistol Whip: it isn’t all about damage. Pistol Whip has also two utilities. It was able to deal the DPS of Hundred Blades (obviously considering its shorter duration) while having an evade and a stun in it. That skill pretty much had anything. They decided to nerf the damage while mantaining its utility. Now the damage of Pistol Whip isn’t amazing, just average, but the utilities make the difference. An all-in-one skill isn’t healthy in any skillbar.

2. Dancing Dagger: that skill was ridiculous prior nerf. A couple of DD thrown at someone ressing another player were able to completely wipe them both. They nerfed the damage to be consistent on what the skill was supposed to be: an utility, a snare.
It is pretty useful against the one who are running away, especially when you consider that D/D lacks any form of movement impariment skills. The fact that the damage is insignificant now doesn’t mean that the skill hasn’t it’s use.

3. Cloak and Dagger: pretty much what I’ve said about DD. It is an utility and dealt also amazing damage. It was also the skill present in the backstab combo. Considering that an UTILITY SKILL was able to deal 5k+ damage prior the nerf, the damage adjusting seems fair to me.

4. Caltrops: be serious. That skill allowed to wipe an entire group of enemies while staying in stealth. It was incredibly easy to play and incredibly effective plus, when traited, any thief would be able to mantain caltrops on the floor almost 100% uptime. Adding this with the uncatchable trait, any bleed thief would wipe you while not going out of stealth a single time. The nerf was needed and thank god it came.

5. Mug: that skill dealt 5k damage instantly. Coupled with the backstab combo, any thief would be capable to deal 11k+ damage in a fraction of a second and then finish the target spamming heartseeker. That was sick. While they did not made Mug useless (2k heal is useless?), they just decreased its offensive capability (which thief surely doesn’t lack) while giving some devensive use.

Now Flanking Strike is too much effective. It completely punish the use of ANY BOON in this game and some professions completely rely on them to be effective.
An S/D thief has more boons of a Guardian, an Ele and more might stacks than an HGH engi.

Nerfs are as needed as buffs. If ArenaNet left the game as it is, we would see only the same overperforming profession in both PvP, WvWvW and PvE, killing, in fact, any form of game variety.

So stop cry about nerfs and get used to play into a balanced environment.

Okay, I was pointing out that they have constantly nerfed thieves. I know that C&D and DD were too strong for where they were at. But look at them now? In sPvP, they are practically useless.

Caltrops cannot/did not do that. Any team that had one condi clear removed them. D/D Caltrops is all bleed damage, it was not that strong. Pistol Whip was and is very linear.

S/P was used for Venom Share, and controlling a target with basi venom. Mug is instant burst damage, you are right. And again, the only players that complained about this skill were the ones who didn’t know how to play against thieves.

I am not crying, I am just stating the above. Constant nerfs/buffs does not help. Listening to a specific crowd of the community doesn’t help either. Whether that be the oldest or newest players. The worst or the best players. Everyone should feel free to express their feedback and feel like it is being heard.

Oh and S/D, to be straight-forward and honest, if this ability gets nerfed with out something to buffer, thieves will effectively have one viable build again.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Okay, I was pointing out that they have constantly nerfed thieves. I know that C&D and DD were too strong for where they were at. But look at them now? In sPvP, they are practically useless.

Caltrops cannot/did not do that. Any team that had one condi clear removed them. D/D Caltrops is all bleed damage, it was not that strong. Pistol Whip was and is very linear.

S/P was used for Venom Share, and controlling a target with basi venom. Mug is instant burst damage, you are right. And again, the only players that complained about this skill were the ones who didn’t know how to play against thieves.

I am not crying, I am just stating the above. Constant nerfs/buffs does not help. Listening to a specific crowd of the community doesn’t help either. Whether that be the oldest or newest players. The worst or the best players. Everyone should feel free to express their feedback and feel like it is being heard.

Oh and S/D, to be straight-forward and honest, if this ability gets nerfed with out something to buffer, thieves will effectively have one viable build again.

They aren’t that useless. CnD is still the most cheap source of stealth thieves have, while DD is good as a snare, as I said, which thieves lack in any melee weapon set.

Caltrop is constant bleed application.
It pulses every second applying bleed, which is the main source of damage of condition builds. Having it on a node will force anyone inside that node to go away, because condition cleansing isn’t enough to overcome the constant bleed application. But the most important point is that you did not need to expose yourself to constantly apply AoE bleeding.

People did not complained about Mug. People complained about backstab. If ArenaNet really listened to the community when balancing the game, you would probably have your backstab damage nerfed now.
Point is that an huge portion of people has more chances to be right. So, it may happen that ArenaNet take decisions that looks like influenced by the community complains, but that’s probably because it is the best thing to do, not because they base their balance decisions of what the community says.

S/D needs either to steal a single boon, or to remove only the boons or to have its initiative cost increased.
The buff to FS pathing is huge by itself (it pretty much works like a leap now), I don’t think it will fall underused if it will have some adjustments.

There was definitely complaints about backstab, but that was not the problem. The complaints about mug outweighed the ones for backstab.

I can only think of 1 maybe 2 builds that use C&D. P/D condis and D/D burst (if it still exists). There are so many better options for a gap closer than DD, it is just a waste of initiative. 4 initiative for for 4s-6s cripple, might as well use heart seeker, or use infiltrator signet.

Caltrops is just bleed and cripple. In a tPvP setting that won’t work in the thieves favor when their team is going to have 101 ways to clear condis.

And my point with this thread was their balance philosophy is a little off. They know they should be taking feedback from players that have been playing the game for a long, but they still neglect more than half of feedback.

The recent change to mug was done to cater to beginner players, I have said this…5 times now? It had very little to do with tPvP balance. S/D was given viability to buffer. D/P still suffers from trying to be a part of team. Where does a thief fit in? I need a S/D ele to burst with (from stealth) me or a mesmer to make it look like I am doing something.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Again, I don’t think this is something that needs to be nerfed because they don’t know how to play against it. That would be a learn to play thing.

I disagree. Stealth, more than almost any other mechanic in any game, is extremely frustrating to play against even when you know how to deal with it, and typically makes the game less fun. This is doubly the case when you add high burst damage to the same kit. It was the case in League of Legends, Monday Night Combat, Guild Wars 2, etc. The only game I’ve ever seen that had tolerable stealth was Team Fortress 2, and it was extremely limited (until Valve started messing it up with crummy items). If a lot of the thief’s power budget is tied up in a mechanic that has a lot of gameplay/balance drawbacks, then isn’t it in thief’s best interest to have it significantly toned down so he can be stronger elsewhere?

violentlycar.5267:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Again, I don’t think this is something that needs to be nerfed because they don’t know how to play against it. That would be a learn to play thing.

I disagree. Stealth, more than almost any other mechanic in any game, is extremely frustrating to play against even when you know how to deal with it, and typically makes the game less fun. This is doubly the case when you add high burst damage to the same kit. It was the case in League of Legends, Monday Night Combat, Guild Wars 2, etc. The only game I’ve ever seen that had tolerable stealth was Team Fortress 2, and it was extremely limited (until Valve started messing it up with crummy items). If a lot of the thief’s power budget is tied up in a mechanic that has a lot of gameplay/balance drawbacks, then isn’t it in thief’s best interest to have it significantly toned down so he can be stronger elsewhere?

Stealth is very annoying to play against, until you know how to play against it. The most annoying thing when you are playing a thief is when you cannot get your burst off because you are being dodged and evaded, and then your stealth wears off.

There are several ways to know when you are going to be hit, (I know you cannot see an invisible target)

1. Most stealth a thief will try to burst you from will only last 3s, wait in .5s intervals to dodge.

2. AoE your feet. Warriors might not be able to do this.

3. Try and turn you you character and strafe. Do this when you do not have the endurance to use, or if you can’t expense it. This is only in hopes that the thief will get a sidestab.

These are just tips, and they do work, I do this against other thieves and it works. The problem is I am a GC and I still get hit, hard.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

There was definitely complaints about backstab, but that was not the problem. The complaints about mug outweighed the ones for backstab.

I can only think of 1 maybe 2 builds that use C&D. P/D condis and D/D burst (if it still exists). There are so many better options for a gap closer than DD, it is just a waste of initiative. 4 initiative for for 4s-6s cripple, might as well use heart seeker, or use infiltrator signet.

Caltrops is just bleed and cripple. In a tPvP setting that won’t work in the thieves favor when their team is going to have 101 ways to clear condis.

And my point with this thread was their balance philosophy is a little off. They know they should be taking feedback from players that have been playing the game for a long, but they still neglect more than half of feedback.

The recent change to mug was done to cater to beginner players, I have said this…5 times now? It had very little to do with tPvP balance. S/D was given viability to buffer. D/P still suffers from trying to be a part of team. Where does a thief fit in? I need a S/D ele to burst with (from stealth) me or a mesmer to make it look like I am doing something.

Actually DD is more useful than heartseeker. Sure, you can spam heartseeker or Infiltrator’s Signet to close the gap, but as long as you have no swiftness (or you both have swiftness), the enemy will still be out of melee range and you’re forced to use heartseeker again or another gap closer, making the initiative cost way higher compared to the DD. DD works as it is supposed to be: a snare to cripple running away targets.

Caltrops is bleed and cripple without you needing to use any attack to apply them.
Condition cleansing isn’t that prominent as you’re depicting it, otherwise I think that we wouldn’t see any HGH engineer or BM bunker ranger.

They take feedback of players, but you’d know that single players are sometimes biased. They both listen to the community and high-end players but at the end of the day, they do what they thing it is the best balance-wise, considering obviously the feedback.
If Mug didn’t really needed a nerf, we wouldn’t see it nerfed. Just look at Hundred Blades. How many complains were about it at the first months of the game? Still, Hundred Blades is untouched.

I think no profession is supposed to burst down a point holder alone that quickly, especially if it is a good one. Mesmer right now are on the very strong side of balance, I would bet they will be adjusted soon or later, because they pretty much took the role of a Thief in tPvP. As you can imagine, if the thief has no role isn’t always linked to the fact that thief is weak, but because probably someone else stronger has taken his role.
Buffing the thief will make the thief meta rise again (you know how popular were thief prior to the nerfs), which is someone none wants, just like the mesmer meta which is going on these days.

Nerfs were fair, buffs also more or less, it’s just that the game isn’t balanced yet.

sorrow.2364:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

There was definitely complaints about backstab, but that was not the problem. The complaints about mug outweighed the ones for backstab.

I can only think of 1 maybe 2 builds that use C&D. P/D condis and D/D burst (if it still exists). There are so many better options for a gap closer than DD, it is just a waste of initiative. 4 initiative for for 4s-6s cripple, might as well use heart seeker, or use infiltrator signet.

Caltrops is just bleed and cripple. In a tPvP setting that won’t work in the thieves favor when their team is going to have 101 ways to clear condis.

And my point with this thread was their balance philosophy is a little off. They know they should be taking feedback from players that have been playing the game for a long, but they still neglect more than half of feedback.

The recent change to mug was done to cater to beginner players, I have said this…5 times now? It had very little to do with tPvP balance. S/D was given viability to buffer. D/P still suffers from trying to be a part of team. Where does a thief fit in? I need a S/D ele to burst with (from stealth) me or a mesmer to make it look like I am doing something.

Actually DD is more useful than heartseeker. Sure, you can spam heartseeker or Infiltrator’s Signet to close the gap, but as long as you have no swiftness (or you both have swiftness), the enemy will still be out of melee range and you’re forced to use heartseeker again or another gap closer, making the initiative cost way higher compared to the DD. DD works as it is supposed to be: a snare to cripple running away targets.

Caltrops is bleed and cripple without you needing to use any attack to apply them.
Condition cleansing isn’t that prominent as you’re depicting it, otherwise I think that we wouldn’t see any HGH engineer or BM bunker ranger.

They take feedback of players, but you’d know that single players are sometimes biased. They both listen to the community and high-end players but at the end of the day, they do what they thing it is the best balance-wise, considering obviously the feedback.
If Mug didn’t really needed a nerf, we wouldn’t see it nerfed. Just look at Hundred Blades. How many complains were about it at the first months of the game? Still, Hundred Blades is untouched.

I think no profession is supposed to burst down a point holder alone that quickly, especially if it is a good one. Mesmer right now are on the very strong side of balance, I would bet they will be adjusted soon or later, because they pretty much took the role of a Thief in tPvP. As you can imagine, if the thief has no role isn’t always linked to the fact that thief is weak, but because probably someone else stronger has taken his role.
Buffing the thief will make the thief meta rise again (you know how popular were thief prior to the nerfs), which is someone none wants, just like the mesmer meta which is going on these days.

Nerfs were fair, buffs also more or less, it’s just that the game isn’t balanced yet.

I am going to put this Caltrops and DD thing to rest.

What I do know, is they said maybe in the 1st or 2nd SOTG, that they wanted to take priority of feedback, or most of it from the players that get invited, or players that are high ranked on the QP Leaderboard.

I keep bringing this and the Mug nerf up because one of the guests said, and this is a partial quote "I feel bad for beginner players that get bursted by that combo, and they don’t even know what to do. It’s so sad…”. At the time whoever said it, I agreed, because I am guilty of going in hot-joins and finding low rank players and just spiking them.

As you said, they use player feedback as something to look back on, knowing players considerations, and their feedback.

I know how to play against stealth, but that doesn’t make it less annoying. In sPvP, it’s not as big of a deal, but in WvW, it feels very cheesy that thieves can escape from nearly any situation thanks to their extremely high duration stealths. This is of course about sPvP, but the mechanics apply across all modes so some sort of solution needs to be found.

you can get all that kitten back if i can get back grenades like they were on release date

stupid kittening overpowered delusional thieves thinking they`re the only class getting nothing but nerfs lmao

That is fine example of what this thread is about. People complain, and don’t know what they are complaining about. Anet makes balance decisions; puts thieves on sidelines.

I believe that thieves are balanced right now. They don’t need any nerfs, but they also definitely don’t need any buffs.

I do not understand the purpose of this thread as there hasn’t been much complaining about thieves lately. If the purpose is to bring back some of the nerfs, I’d like to bring back some of my healing as an Ele to be able to keep up (can get 3 shotted as it is with almost 3k armor and 15k HP). I’d also like to see some other nerfs reversed as well for all other classes if thief is brought back to the insane level it was. This kinda sounds ridiculous as you see, so there is no point in this thread…

EoNxBoNx.9213:

That is fine example of what this thread is about. People complain, and don’t know what they are complaining about. Anet makes balance decisions; puts thieves on sidelines.

Okay very specific heres what i complain about:

prior to the mug nerf i was getting instagibed by Mug/CnD/BS even with 2.6K armor. (and even with 3K armor and prot vs some builds) Why bother even including toughness in the game when there is NO POINT at all in stacking it.

The more popular S/D thieves can ALWAYS disengange a fight and reset combat for full reg unless they are stupid or they are forced to join a fight because its really close.

But overall what kitten es me off the most is your self-righteous attitude and as i said acting like you`re the “special” only class getting nothing but nerfs since release!

I could do the same kittening kitten you did in your first post for engis. kittening kittened thread, delusional thief thinking he`s special.

I don’t like how they buffed Flanking/Larcenous Strike… I know S/D needed some love but that isn’t how it should be done… Maybe they should have worked it more into steal for getting boons over a very spamamble skill…. A lot of profs have to go very deep into trait lines to get any meaningful boon up time (Mesmer protection/HGH Might) to have a thief roll along and spam 3333333333 because he has infinite ini regen while you lose all ur boons that you work hard to keep up. Is just kind of ridiculous… I think LS needs a massive initiative cost increase. They can couple this with taking more boons. But right now its too spammable.

Swim.6830:

I believe that thieves are balanced right now. They don’t need any nerfs, but they also definitely don’t need any buffs.

I do not understand the purpose of this thread as there hasn’t been much complaining about thieves lately. If the purpose is to bring back some of the nerfs, I’d like to bring back some of my healing as an Ele to be able to keep up (can get 3 shotted as it is with almost 3k armor and 15k HP). I’d also like to see some other nerfs reversed as well for all other classes if thief is brought back to the insane level it was. This kinda sounds ridiculous as you see, so there is no point in this thread…

Thieves are balanced right now because they have one build that can help a team, and one that needs to be babysat. I mean if that is what you consider balance then okay. I made this thread because balance patch is coming soon, and whether I like it or not nerf is coming most likely to S/D and probably buffs to P/X or something underused.

The title is a general statement for all classes, I am just talking about thieves. If there is something anyone thinks is overpowered, they should learn to play against it first. I said in the OP, any game cannot be balance when something is constantly buffed/nerfed.

I was not saying that all those abilities did not need to be nerfed, I was saying that during this time, only complaints and no one was saying what thief needed, and only what they needed taken away from them.

jportell.2197:

I don’t like how they buffed Flanking/Larcenous Strike… I know S/D needed some love but that isn’t how it should be done… Maybe they should have worked it more into steal for getting boons over a very spamamble skill…. A lot of profs have to go very deep into trait lines to get any meaningful boon up time (Mesmer protection/HGH Might) to have a thief roll along and spam 3333333333 because he has infinite ini regen while you lose all ur boons that you work hard to keep up. Is just kind of ridiculous… I think LS needs a massive initiative cost increase. They can couple this with taking more boons. But right now its too spammable.

I will agree with this. IMO, maybe implement boon striping in some utilities, Scorpion Wire anyone? Also the April 30th Patch, notes that they lowered initiative cost of FS from 4 to 3. They could increase it back, effectively making it 5 with FS/LS.

Oh man, this thread is producing some GEMS:

Caltrops: be serious. That skill allowed to wipe an entire group of enemies while staying in stealth. It

Where do you find these people? This is hilarious.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Oh man, this thread is producing some GEMS:

Caltrops: be serious. That skill allowed to wipe an entire group of enemies while staying in stealth. It

Where do you find these people? This is hilarious.

Maybe he is referencing pve? In which case yah….

The irony lies in that dancing dagger is useless in DD because of heartseeker. Heartseeker works more reliably as a gap closer and is also a leap finisher with eviscerating damage on low targets (which are the ones you often have to chase), and given the nature of initiative only the skill most useful in the given situation gets used. DD was used before because it could cheese bouncing damage like a boss from a safer distance. DD have fallen to D/P also because the leap combo is much harder to counter compared to a CD (with this is i do not mean the entire combo with backstab, im just comparing how easy it is to deny a X/D thief its stealth compared to a D/P).

Now the problem of “XXXXXXXX” spam i feel appears when a skill is useful in too many situations (see larcenous evade, boonsteal, hardhitter, semi gapcloser, unblockable) when the innitiative system would be more suited to “Lego” skills that are simple building blocks in themselves with single a simple purposes like “this evades, this leaps, this cripples, this deals higher damage on low targets, this applies a condition, this steals a boon, this is damage” etc. but where each skill will have to be chosen in the right moment. Spamming is not the players fault, it is the design.

Just to get clear… You guys asking for buff?? Is it so hard when you need one shot to kill someone? 1/2 of a hit would be rly good (so you can kill 2 targets with one hit), but why devs dont make your “2” skill autocasting and autoattacking (so you dont need to spam “2”)

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Swim.6830:

I believe that thieves are balanced right now. They don’t need any nerfs, but they also definitely don’t need any buffs.

I do not understand the purpose of this thread as there hasn’t been much complaining about thieves lately. If the purpose is to bring back some of the nerfs, I’d like to bring back some of my healing as an Ele to be able to keep up (can get 3 shotted as it is with almost 3k armor and 15k HP). I’d also like to see some other nerfs reversed as well for all other classes if thief is brought back to the insane level it was. This kinda sounds ridiculous as you see, so there is no point in this thread…

Thieves are balanced right now because they have one build that can help a team, and one that needs to be babysat. I mean if that is what you consider balance then okay. I made this thread because balance patch is coming soon, and whether I like it or not nerf is coming most likely to S/D and probably buffs to P/X or something underused.

The title is a general statement for all classes, I am just talking about thieves. If there is something anyone thinks is overpowered, they should learn to play against it first. I said in the OP, any game cannot be balance when something is constantly buffed/nerfed.

I was not saying that all those abilities did not need to be nerfed, I was saying that during this time, only complaints and no one was saying what thief needed, and only what they needed taken away from them.

I am not going to admit you only have 2 builds, but even if that’s the case, Eles have one. And it was nerfed.

Mesmer has what? 2, 3?
Guardians?
etc. etc.

I agree with your main argument, after all it took people over 5 months to notice how “OP” Ele was when NOTHING was actually changed during that time. But I also realize the game needs more diversity and a balance patch that focuses on giving ALL classes viable options for various purposes.

miriforst.1290:

The irony lies in that dancing dagger is useless in DD because of heartseeker. Heartseeker works more reliably as a gap closer and is also a leap finisher with eviscerating damage on low targets (which are the ones you often have to chase), and given the nature of initiative only the skill most useful in the given situation gets used. DD was used before because it could cheese bouncing damage like a boss from a safer distance. DD have fallen to D/P also because the leap combo is much harder to counter compared to a CD (with this is i do not mean the entire combo with backstab, im just comparing how easy it is to deny a X/D thief its stealth compared to a D/P).

Now the problem of “XXXXXXXX” spam i feel appears when a skill is useful in too many situations (see larcenous evade, boonsteal, hardhitter, semi gapcloser, unblockable) when the innitiative system would be more suited to “Lego” skills that are simple building blocks in themselves with single a simple purposes like “this evades, this leaps, this cripples, this deals higher damage on low targets, this applies a condition, this steals a boon, this is damage” etc. but where each skill will have to be chosen in the right moment. Spamming is not the players fault, it is the design.

You believe it is the spam capability through the initiative system? I could agree with that. It still feels like the way over did DD, and C&D. I wouldn’t want them to increase the damage just make it feel like a thief should have reason to bring OH dagger.

The only reason to have OH dagger, is for FS/LS.

RaynStargaze.6510:

I probably won’t make you change your mind, but that is no longer true. Shadow Return has a 1200 range now, meaning that, even if it works, you will still most likely be in range of any ranged profession. Stealth is much better for disengaging than Shadow Return.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

jportell.2197:

I don’t like how they buffed Flanking/Larcenous Strike… I know S/D needed some love but that isn’t how it should be done… Maybe they should have worked it more into steal for getting boons over a very spamamble skill…. A lot of profs have to go very deep into trait lines to get any meaningful boon up time (Mesmer protection/HGH Might) to have a thief roll along and spam 3333333333 because he has infinite ini regen while you lose all ur boons that you work hard to keep up. Is just kind of ridiculous… I think LS needs a massive initiative cost increase. They can couple this with taking more boons. But right now its too spammable.

I will agree with this. IMO, maybe implement boon striping in some utilities, Scorpion Wire anyone? Also the April 30th Patch, notes that they lowered initiative cost of FS from 4 to 3. They could increase it back, effectively making it 5 with FS/LS.

the fs/ls spam build can do 7 in a row before using roll for initiative and can do it with little time for recovery before you can do it again.
so 5 hell even 6 initiative cost wont make much of a difference they need to nerf the initiative regen from somewhere to nerf that silly build.
this is not like hs spam since ls is unblockable fs have a evede so your limited with bursting or blocking it so win win for the thief lose lose anyone else.
played it for like 4 games and i didnt know if i need to cry or laugh just so easy and chee ZZZZZ but unfortunately effective.

and btw the dmg isnt bad also 3 to 4k on a guard (air proc all crits can go up to 4k easy) with 0 might for this skill its alot (i know its like auto attack dmg but its faster have a evede cant be block strip boons so … ).

ps: buff pistols,revert pistol whip back thief is fine gg

cottage.3274:

the fs/ls spam build can do 7 in a row before using roll for initiative and can do it with little time for recovery before you can do it again.

Bold claim that has no factual basis. It’s mathematically impossible to do 7 FS/LS in a full cycle.

cottage.3274:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

jportell.2197:

I don’t like how they buffed Flanking/Larcenous Strike… I know S/D needed some love but that isn’t how it should be done… Maybe they should have worked it more into steal for getting boons over a very spamamble skill…. A lot of profs have to go very deep into trait lines to get any meaningful boon up time (Mesmer protection/HGH Might) to have a thief roll along and spam 3333333333 because he has infinite ini regen while you lose all ur boons that you work hard to keep up. Is just kind of ridiculous… I think LS needs a massive initiative cost increase. They can couple this with taking more boons. But right now its too spammable.

I will agree with this. IMO, maybe implement boon striping in some utilities, Scorpion Wire anyone? Also the April 30th Patch, notes that they lowered initiative cost of FS from 4 to 3. They could increase it back, effectively making it 5 with FS/LS.

the fs/ls spam build can do 7 in a row before using roll for initiative and can do it with little time for recovery before you can do it again.
so 5 hell even 6 initiative cost wont make much of a difference they need to nerf the initiative regen from somewhere to nerf that silly build.
this is not like hs spam since ls is unblockable fs have a evede so your limited with bursting or blocking it so win win for the thief lose lose anyone else.
played it for like 4 games and i didnt know if i need to cry or laugh just so easy and chee ZZZZZ but unfortunately effective.

and btw the dmg isnt bad also 3 to 4k on a guard (air proc all crits can go up to 4k easy) with 0 might for this skill its alot (i know its like auto attack dmg but its faster have a evede cant be block strip boons so … ).

Wow… 7 times… It kinda cracks me up when I hear people say “Just dodge” Yeah I have two dodges while you have 7… Hopefully they rethink the way this skill works… Prebuff I think it just took one boon and didn’t give it to the thief. The only other class that can steal boons is Mesmer and the skill that does that for them is unreliable on a wicked long cooldown and was nerfed from all boons/condis to a 3/3 swap. Maybe anet should have thought about that nerf and why they did it before adding in LS.

Med.6150:

cottage.3274:

the fs/ls spam build can do 7 in a row before using roll for initiative and can do it with little time for recovery before you can do it again.

Bold claim that has no factual basis. It’s mathematically impossible to do 7 FS/LS in a full cycle.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsY8YlYmSOHcy7E/5Ex2jdKUe6VgsdP4qVrKA-TwAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNoYRx+j5HA

feel free do try it out.
it’s mathematically possible and have factual basis not so hard to test 1 min in the mists will show you.

cottage.3274:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

jportell.2197:

I don’t like how they buffed Flanking/Larcenous Strike… I know S/D needed some love but that isn’t how it should be done… Maybe they should have worked it more into steal for getting boons over a very spamamble skill…. A lot of profs have to go very deep into trait lines to get any meaningful boon up time (Mesmer protection/HGH Might) to have a thief roll along and spam 3333333333 because he has infinite ini regen while you lose all ur boons that you work hard to keep up. Is just kind of ridiculous… I think LS needs a massive initiative cost increase. They can couple this with taking more boons. But right now its too spammable.

I will agree with this. IMO, maybe implement boon striping in some utilities, Scorpion Wire anyone? Also the April 30th Patch, notes that they lowered initiative cost of FS from 4 to 3. They could increase it back, effectively making it 5 with FS/LS.

the fs/ls spam build can do 7 in a row before using roll for initiative and can do it with little time for recovery before you can do it again.
so 5 hell even 6 initiative cost wont make much of a difference they need to nerf the initiative regen from somewhere to nerf that silly build.
this is not like hs spam since ls is unblockable fs have a evede so your limited with bursting or blocking it so win win for the thief lose lose anyone else.
played it for like 4 games and i didnt know if i need to cry or laugh just so easy and chee ZZZZZ but unfortunately effective.

and btw the dmg isnt bad also 3 to 4k on a guard (air proc all crits can go up to 4k easy) with 0 might for this skill its alot (i know its like auto attack dmg but its faster have a evede cant be block strip boons so … ).

ps: buff pistols,revert pistol whip back thief is fine gg

Um, 4 initiative cost for FS/LS, you have 12 in this build. With Quick Pockets you get 3 initiative back. That makes it 4 times on weapon swap. Quick recovery gives you 2 initiative every 2 seconds, considering you get lucky you can get 5. My math is not that great, but that is not 7 in a row, and you would have to get pretty kitten lucky to get 5 in a row.

I am not going to tell you, or anyone how to play their S/D, but you should not have Air Sigils. Sigil of Energy makes the build what it is. And 3-4k crits on a guardian sounds like it was a GC guardian.

cottage.3274:

Med.6150:

cottage.3274:

the fs/ls spam build can do 7 in a row before using roll for initiative and can do it with little time for recovery before you can do it again.

Bold claim that has no factual basis. It’s mathematically impossible to do 7 FS/LS in a full cycle.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsY8YlYmSOHcy7E/5Ex2jdKUe6VgsdP4qVrKA-TwAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNoYRx+j5HA

feel free do try it out.
it’s mathematically possible and have factual basis not so hard to test 1 min in the mists will show you.

So, let’s put it this way.

Jumper’s build has virtually 0 range. That means that he pretty much has to run up to enemies to bash them with his sword. That takes time, and given that you have some small degree of tactical and positional knowledge (I guess you don’t from your QQ’ing), that means that you can simply smack the build from a range for a few seconds, and then force Jumper to fight on your own terms. Of course, all of this assumes that he doesn’t start with iStrike, but all that does is cut down the running time; you still get the positional upper hand, should you choose to take it.

Furthermore, because of his limited range, spacing allies out in battles pretty much allows you to destroy him from a range. Because he has virtually no toughness, or for that matter, defensive stats in general, even a single hit on him can be devastating. Furthermore, channeled auto attacks that do damage over time (like an S/D ele’s lightning #1, or spatial surge) are pretty much guaranteed to hit Jumper, due to the nature of the attacks. Also, ranged AoE skills (marks, laid down during the LS animation, which also grant fantastic disabling effects; Chaos Storm, ele Fire Staff #2, Frozen Ground, etc) are also guaranteed hits against Jumper.

And of course, none of this is considering that FS has a low damage coefficient, that Jumper often has to waste LS into space because he’s too far away from enemies, and that LS has a long enough cast to be taken advantage of, horribly easily.

now hold on are you guys defending this build?…come on…
personal insults,the “he must be a gs” argument sigh.
play it dont play it you can think its op up or w/e i dont really care.

EoNxBoNx dont forget base initiative regen on a 1.3s

Arganthium’s analysis is spot on. Especially the range and channeled attacks part, that are way too effective counters against S/D.

….Thief players playing victim once again….

“Wait, I have something really important that I want to say!”

“Please, everybody… Come and listen in on what I have to say!”

Arheundel.6451:

….Thief players playing victim once again….

“… Thank you for hearing me speak! Now go… Keep doing whatever you were doing beforehand.”

Should any nerf arrive to S/D, I feel one of the following is the most reasonable:

• LS is no longer unblockable – providing more counterplay to the boon-stealing

• Increased LS aftercast back to regular values
  This might be a toxic change because the typical LS-#1 auto attack reset is very good at separating bad S/D thiefs from great ones, but this nerf could be used to reduce the potential damage of the build, turning into a more support focused build

• Some kind of cooldown into boonstealing having it rescaled:
  2/1/1/1 boons stolen. Basically first LS would steal 2 boons. If its used again in a time window of X seconds (up to balance), next LS would only steal 1 boon. After the cooldown wears off, the boonstealing resets back to 2. EDIT This change has the potential of encouraging smart-play of S/D, where well timed LS will be way more effective than a S/D 3333 spammer.

Basically the first change I’ve suggested puts the counterplay in the hands of the thief’s victim, while the last change puts the effectiveness of the build in the hands of the thief himself. So we could probably use both changes at the same time.

sorrow.2364:

Competitive means that the only thing which matters should be skill, not your class. So if a build is too much effective at lower skill levels, it should be adjusted to be rewarding if played right and punshing if played wrong.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I am going to put this Caltrops and DD thing to rest.

What I do know, is they said maybe in the 1st or 2nd SOTG, that they wanted to take priority of feedback, or most of it from the players that get invited, or players that are high ranked on the QP Leaderboard.

I keep bringing this and the Mug nerf up because one of the guests said, and this is a partial quote "I feel bad for beginner players that get bursted by that combo, and they don’t even know what to do. It’s so sad…”. At the time whoever said it, I agreed, because I am guilty of going in hot-joins and finding low rank players and just spiking them.

As you said, they use player feedback as something to look back on, knowing players considerations, and their feedback.

Well, this isn’t exactly true.
They take the feedback from the whole playerbase, both high ranked, newbies and WvWvW players, because everyone needs to be listened as everyone plays this game.

Don’t forget also that this is a game. A game has to be fun. So, if there is something not fun to play against, it is fair and right to take a look at.
Also, this game in particular, aims to be a competitive game. Competitive means that the only thing which matters should be skill, not your class. So if a build is too much effective at lower skill levels, it should be adjusted to be rewarding if played right and punshing if played wrong.

I think nobody can deny that thieves prior to nerfs were extremely easy to play and extremely effective at the same time.

sorrow.2364:

In my opinion, all the nerfs were right. So are the buff (excluding FS).
So stop cry about nerfs and get used to play into a balanced environment.

Not really feeling you here. While I agree with all the skills they touched being touched for a reason. That doesn’t mean it was done well. The circumstances that justified some nerfs have changed. PW nerf? Quickness has now been nerfed, Mug has been nerfed. The PW +Mug & Haste build has had all 3 aspects changed as of the previous balance patch.

Venom share is niche and it is not S/P exclusive you can run it with S/D. It’s hard to slot yourself in as a venom spec.

This is not a balanced environment, it is quite clear that it is not and if “Competitive means that the only thing which matters should be skill, not your class” then you still cannot say this. Your builds are tied to your class, and weapons are a part of that. Weapons clearly becoming niche/underpowered how can you stand by your statement that Competitive means only thing that matters is skill when it clear isn’t and underpowered specs are the flip side of the coin to overpowered specs in balance.

In addition as far as weapons themselves, skill usability should not decrease as it has. In efforts to balance dancing dagger they’ve practically taken it out of use, the skill is heavily unused, not for lack of wishing we could use it but this profession is based on opportunity cost for weapon skills and it is seldom worth it. If we had 100 initiative then sure tossing out Dancing Daggers is no problem, but we do not and throwing out Dancing dagger can literally cost you a fight.

ensoriki.5789:

Not really feeling you here. While I agree with all the skills they touched being touched for a reason. That doesn’t mean it was done well. The circumstances that justified some nerfs have changed. PW nerf? Quickness has now been nerfed, Mug has been nerfed. The PW +Mug & Haste build has had all 3 aspects changed as of the previous balance patch.

Venom share is niche and it is not S/P exclusive you can run it with S/D. It’s hard to slot yourself in as a venom spec.

This is not a balanced environment, it is quite clear that it is not and if “Competitive means that the only thing which matters should be skill, not your class” then you still cannot say this. Your builds are tied to your class, and weapons are a part of that. Weapons clearly becoming niche/underpowered how can you stand by your statement that Competitive means only thing that matters is skill when it clear isn’t and underpowered specs are the flip side of the coin to overpowered specs in balance.

In addition as far as weapons themselves, skill usability should not decrease as it has. In efforts to balance dancing dagger they’ve practically taken it out of use, the skill is heavily unused, not for lack of wishing we could use it but this profession is based on opportunity cost for weapon skills and it is seldom worth it. If we had 100 initiative then sure tossing out Dancing Daggers is no problem, but we do not and throwing out Dancing dagger can literally cost you a fight.

I’ve said that I still think that this game isn’t balanced yet.

I’ve also said why I think Pistol Whip was a fair nerf.
Pistol Whip, back prior to nerf, had the same DPS of HB (keep in mind that PW takes less time to channel) while having also a stun and an evade. There was no reason that a skill with so much utilities was able to deal that damage, it’s simple.

Dancing Dagger was completely broken before the nerf, not only overpowered. It was pretty obvious.
Right now, DD has its use which is the real use it was supposed to have by design: a snare. You don’t want to use DD as your damage skill, neither to finish off a target. You would use it just to cripple a running away target and it does its job fine.

Wow, I don’t know why they changed the title. Rightfully so people need to learn to play, and stop complaining about whats OP, and asking for nerfs.

sorrow.2364:

ensoriki.5789:

Not really feeling you here. While I agree with all the skills they touched being touched for a reason. That doesn’t mean it was done well. The circumstances that justified some nerfs have changed. PW nerf? Quickness has now been nerfed, Mug has been nerfed. The PW +Mug & Haste build has had all 3 aspects changed as of the previous balance patch.

Venom share is niche and it is not S/P exclusive you can run it with S/D. It’s hard to slot yourself in as a venom spec.

This is not a balanced environment, it is quite clear that it is not and if “Competitive means that the only thing which matters should be skill, not your class” then you still cannot say this. Your builds are tied to your class, and weapons are a part of that. Weapons clearly becoming niche/underpowered how can you stand by your statement that Competitive means only thing that matters is skill when it clear isn’t and underpowered specs are the flip side of the coin to overpowered specs in balance.

In addition as far as weapons themselves, skill usability should not decrease as it has. In efforts to balance dancing dagger they’ve practically taken it out of use, the skill is heavily unused, not for lack of wishing we could use it but this profession is based on opportunity cost for weapon skills and it is seldom worth it. If we had 100 initiative then sure tossing out Dancing Daggers is no problem, but we do not and throwing out Dancing dagger can literally cost you a fight.

I’ve said that I still think that this game isn’t balanced yet.

I’ve also said why I think Pistol Whip was a fair nerf.
Pistol Whip, back prior to nerf, had the same DPS of HB (keep in mind that PW takes less time to channel) while having also a stun and an evade. There was no reason that a skill with so much utilities was able to deal that damage, it’s simple.

Dancing Dagger was completely broken before the nerf, not only overpowered. It was pretty obvious.
Right now, DD has its use which is the real use it was supposed to have by design: a snare. You don’t want to use DD as your damage skill, neither to finish off a target. You would use it just to cripple a running away target and it does its job fine.

This is sort of what I was getting at. When they nerfed C&D, and DD, like they did it made the OH dagger so unlikable that thieves were forced in to going for D/P. And anyone that was using S/D for the daze build got shafted to.

Now S/D has a decent build, and people are asking for nerfs to it. What’s next P/P and traps is OP, and that has to get nerfed back?

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Wow, I don’t know why they changed the title. Rightfully so people need to learn to play, and stop complaining about whats OP, and asking for nerfs.

sorrow.2364:

ensoriki.5789:

Not really feeling you here. While I agree with all the skills they touched being touched for a reason. That doesn’t mean it was done well. The circumstances that justified some nerfs have changed. PW nerf? Quickness has now been nerfed, Mug has been nerfed. The PW +Mug & Haste build has had all 3 aspects changed as of the previous balance patch.

Venom share is niche and it is not S/P exclusive you can run it with S/D. It’s hard to slot yourself in as a venom spec.

This is not a balanced environment, it is quite clear that it is not and if “Competitive means that the only thing which matters should be skill, not your class” then you still cannot say this. Your builds are tied to your class, and weapons are a part of that. Weapons clearly becoming niche/underpowered how can you stand by your statement that Competitive means only thing that matters is skill when it clear isn’t and underpowered specs are the flip side of the coin to overpowered specs in balance.

In addition as far as weapons themselves, skill usability should not decrease as it has. In efforts to balance dancing dagger they’ve practically taken it out of use, the skill is heavily unused, not for lack of wishing we could use it but this profession is based on opportunity cost for weapon skills and it is seldom worth it. If we had 100 initiative then sure tossing out Dancing Daggers is no problem, but we do not and throwing out Dancing dagger can literally cost you a fight.

I’ve said that I still think that this game isn’t balanced yet.

I’ve also said why I think Pistol Whip was a fair nerf.
Pistol Whip, back prior to nerf, had the same DPS of HB (keep in mind that PW takes less time to channel) while having also a stun and an evade. There was no reason that a skill with so much utilities was able to deal that damage, it’s simple.

Dancing Dagger was completely broken before the nerf, not only overpowered. It was pretty obvious.
Right now, DD has its use which is the real use it was supposed to have by design: a snare. You don’t want to use DD as your damage skill, neither to finish off a target. You would use it just to cripple a running away target and it does its job fine.

This is sort of what I was getting at. When they nerfed C&D, and DD, like they did it made the OH dagger so unlikable that thieves were forced in to going for D/P. And anyone that was using S/D for the daze build got shafted to.

Now S/D has a decent build, and people are asking for nerfs to it. What’s next P/P and traps is OP, and that has to get nerfed back?

D/D was still viable after Dancing Dagger and CnD were nerfed. It just had a very specific niche. Mug being nerfed completely took it off the table. D/D was an all-in weapon set. If you kittened up your burst, you got demolished because there was no defensive blind option, nor the ability to disengage via 5+2. Subsequent nerfs to elements of that spike (mug) and your ability to set it up (trickshot) are what relegated D/D to unplayable kitten-tier.

D/D isn’t unviable. I still use it over D/P because it has easier and cheaper access to stealth (4 ini when traited vs 5+ ini) that means easier and faster backstabs, plus the snare provided by DD.

If you want to know what unviable really mean, try Necro’s Axe MH.

sorrow.2364:

D/D isn’t unviable. I still use it over D/P because it has easier and cheaper access to stealth (4 ini when traited vs 5+ ini) that means easier and faster backstabs, plus the snare provided by DD.

If you want to know what unviable really mean, try Necro’s Axe MH.

As easy as it is to dodge C&D, I really don’t see how that is cheap access to stealth. Maybe hitting crates in Khylo or the treb, but C&D is 6 initiative, and you have to use on someone to access stealth. BP + HS, is an easier way to get into stealth but harder on your initiative.

Also, D/D doesn’t really bring any team utility. The least D/P can give to a team is a blind stomp. That is more viability than D/D, and a better reason to bring D/P over D/D.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

As easy as it is to dodge C&D, I really don’t see how that is cheap access to stealth. Maybe hitting crates in Khylo or the treb, but C&D is 6 initiative, and you have to use on someone to access stealth. BP + HS, is an easier way to get into stealth but harder on your initiative.

Also, D/D doesn’t really bring any team utility. The least D/P can give to a team is a blind stomp. That is more viability than D/D, and a better reason to bring D/P over D/D.

It’s a matter of choices. Both have its advantages and disadvantages.
D/P has more pricey stealth access, while D/D is cheaper but it requires a target to be performed. Honestly, I don’t think it is that hard to land a CnD. This game is full of AI controlled entities. You can land your CnD or ranger’s pet, on mesmer’s clones, minions, spirit weapons, turrets, ranger roots… Pretty much everything that can be hit. You don’t necessarily need to land it on a playing character.
CnD is actually 4 initiative if you succed to land it (2 initiative are given back once you succed), while the Black Powder combo need at least 7 initiative (6 for powder, 3 for heartseeker and 2 given back) to have only 3 second of stealth, one less compared to CnD.

I don’t really think you can call Black Powder a proper “team utility”. Most profession have access to their safe stomp abilities, they don’t really need you to use Black Powder on a downed guy. To be honest, none asked me to use it to get a stomp and it probably would sound silly…

Well D/P has easier access to stealth, can be used for aoe stealth with blast finishers (extremly powerful tool), black powder itself is a powerful anti melee ability and one of the best stomping skill the games offer. The set also feature a fast ranged interrupt, a FAST 900 range unblockable teleport that does decent damage at that and the usual dagger main hand skill.

D/D has an useless bleed stacking skill that does poor damage, that almost root you in place but offers some evade frames (nobody really uses it and there’s a reason), a slow as can be projectile that can be step dodged that cripples and does no damage on top of having an high cost, and an ability that can provide stealth if you don’t miss (meaning it’s less reliable than d/p in general but can indeed cost less if you never miss).

It honestly not hard to understand why somebody that is actually here to win would never use D/D over D/P.