Guild Wars 2

jmatb.6307:

At this point after 1400 tournament games and 3 champion class titles I am completely sick of passive benefits from traits and “skills” that give people an advantage by doing nothing but activate or not activate a skill.

I think traits need to be a series of active choices to choose from. More like Improvisation (steal recharges utilities) than Dagger Training (5% damage from daggers).

Signets, Spirits, Minions, and all other set and forget utilities ought to be reworked to be viable only in PvE.

I believe that the person who knows how to position, use active skills, and win through proper use of team work and tactics without riding passive bonuses ought to be the winner.

When two spirit rangers, two aoe spammers, and a guardian dominate matches that is complete garbage. They are not good players – they have strong builds.

I want active traits and utilities for every profession in PvP and all the passive junk put into PvE, where that kind of thing is needed to scale with enemy mobs.

I have to agree passive traits take skill requirements from the game.

then I think this is not the game for you.
i’m not trying to be mean, but this game clearly caters to pve casuals and the spill-over into pvp is so enormous the devs won’t even try to clean it up.

True but I think my post is more geared at less passive traits in the future because we have enough of those.

But… I love minion master. I do more dps than them combined, I used them to siphon hp (the only way a necro can really bunker atm with how little vigor and other Boons we get, and for CC. If we didnt have to put so many points to make them viable in the slightest, I’d love for their personal damage to go down so I could trait into being even stronger myself. However, Mm is probably one of the least “forget me” since the skill in MM is maxing uptime since if you break it down, they’re kitable killable dots, and do less damage than condy stacks. So just because you don’t like t doesn’t mean its mindless.

What about the MASSIVE amount of evades on basic attacks for thieves, evades for rangers, stealth, mesmers in general, loads of cc, I mean everything that is even “viable” is also cheesy/cheap in SOME way. You just want a different game.

That’s just how Guardians are :P they fart and boons come out hahaha xD

there are zero skill shots in this game and you’re worried about cheesy build centric gameplay

I think eliminating passive crap from PvP will instantly make the game more polarized between good and bad players, which favors people who actually earn their production

No, it’ll just start to favor the stuff that “hits harder” and who has more dodges.

random dodgers will waste their endurance though and good players pounce on them

jmatb.6307:

At this point after 1400 tournament games and 3 champion class titles I am completely sick of passive benefits from traits and “skills” that give people an advantage by doing nothing but activate or not activate a skill.

I think traits need to be a series of active choices to choose from. More like Improvisation (steal recharges utilities) than Dagger Training (5% damage from daggers).

Signets, Spirits, Minions, and all other set and forget utilities ought to be reworked to be viable only in PvE.

I believe that the person who knows how to position, use active skills, and win through proper use of team work and tactics without riding passive bonuses ought to be the winner.

When two spirit rangers, two aoe spammers, and a guardian dominate matches that is complete garbage. They are not good players – they have strong builds.

I want active traits and utilities for every profession in PvP and all the passive junk put into PvE, where that kind of thing is needed to scale with enemy mobs.

I agree that they should tone down passive bonus from the game, but I absolutely don’t agree on just making them unviable. They should be reworked to be more active and less passive, not just be put in an unviable state and forgotten about.

For instance, they can lower the damage of minions but make their active skills better. Or they can give some sort of micro-management of AI entities, like GW1.

And AOE
Absolutly no brain AOE spam>>>>>everything

Completely agree with this. The perfect example of something that is nearly the complete opposite of being active is spirit ranger. Spam 1 on your shortbow and if they get close just activate all spirits! You’ve now played this class to near optimization grats. Skill needs to be a more emphasized part of the game. And if simple builds are to stay in, they shouldn’t be the strongest builds.

Sry but, SUMMON a minion or Spirit is a ACTIVE skill.

Phantaram.1265:

Completely agree with this. The perfect example of something that is nearly the complete opposite of being active is spirit ranger. Spam 1 on your shortbow and if they get close just activate all spirits! You’ve now played this class to near optimization grats. Skill needs to be a more emphasized part of the game. And if simple builds are to stay in, they shouldn’t be the strongest builds.

Yeah Ranger keeps getting lazier and lazier. If they aren’t riding their pet, they’re riding spirits. Signets and traits remove conditions better than anyone without having to worry about it.

When you don’t have to use your utilities at all and other professions have to bring Lyssa runes or certain utilities just to survive long enough to contribute there’s a serious problem.

urdriel.8496:

Sry but, SUMMON a minion or Spirit is a ACTIVE skill.

Lol, don’t be silly here. It summons something that provides extremely strong, passive benefits for a long duration and then can be re-summoned to do the same as soon as it de-spawns.

Velron.3729:

urdriel.8496:

Sry but, SUMMON a minion or Spirit is a ACTIVE skill.

Lol, don’t be silly here. It summons something that provides extremely strong, passive benefits for a long duration and then can be re-summoned to do the same as soon as it de-spawns.

Wait, spirits are troublesome but AR isn’t? I’m thinking someone is a troll.

AR and all types of bonuses like that are the problem.

You don’t have to be skilled against a pressure build when you have AR up. You just fight, save your heal for when you’re low, and heal up right when it procs.

That’s ridiculous and lazy. If you get condition immunity you have to earn that, or use it like Warriors have to with Berserkers stance on a 60s cooldown.

ronpierce.2760:

Velron.3729:

urdriel.8496:

Sry but, SUMMON a minion or Spirit is a ACTIVE skill.

Lol, don’t be silly here. It summons something that provides extremely strong, passive benefits for a long duration and then can be re-summoned to do the same as soon as it de-spawns.

Wait, spirits are troublesome but AR isn’t? I’m thinking someone is a troll.

Quite the opposite. I am for getting rid of all these things.

But you can’t single out just AR bc it hurts your Necro. You need to do a thread like this – talking about ALL passive crap.

I’m also for removing self rez skills – for ALL professions.

Velron.3729:

ronpierce.2760:

Velron.3729:

urdriel.8496:

Sry but, SUMMON a minion or Spirit is a ACTIVE skill.

Lol, don’t be silly here. It summons something that provides extremely strong, passive benefits for a long duration and then can be re-summoned to do the same as soon as it de-spawns.

Wait, spirits are troublesome but AR isn’t? I’m thinking someone is a troll.

Quite the opposite. I am for getting rid of all these things.

But you can’t single out just AR bc it hurts your Necro. You need to do a thread like this – talking about ALL passive crap.

I’m also for removing self rez skills – for ALL professions.

Thing is, I was saying AR needed changed, I wasn’t suggesting, however that Necros didn’t need changes along with many others. XD I like balance, believe it or not. I can’t STAND the amount of FOTM Necros out there atm…

ronpierce.2760:

Velron.3729:

ronpierce.2760:

Velron.3729:

urdriel.8496:

Sry but, SUMMON a minion or Spirit is a ACTIVE skill.

Lol, don’t be silly here. It summons something that provides extremely strong, passive benefits for a long duration and then can be re-summoned to do the same as soon as it de-spawns.

Wait, spirits are troublesome but AR isn’t? I’m thinking someone is a troll.

Quite the opposite. I am for getting rid of all these things.

But you can’t single out just AR bc it hurts your Necro. You need to do a thread like this – talking about ALL passive crap.

I’m also for removing self rez skills – for ALL professions.

Thing is, I was saying AR needed changed, I wasn’t suggesting, however that Necros didn’t need changes along with many others. XD I like balance, believe it or not. I can’t STAND the amount of FOTM Necros out there atm…

Me too, that’s why I mostly play my stun warrior in tournies right now.

Velron.3729:

ronpierce.2760:

Velron.3729:

ronpierce.2760:

Velron.3729:

urdriel.8496:

Sry but, SUMMON a minion or Spirit is a ACTIVE skill.

Lol, don’t be silly here. It summons something that provides extremely strong, passive benefits for a long duration and then can be re-summoned to do the same as soon as it de-spawns.

Wait, spirits are troublesome but AR isn’t? I’m thinking someone is a troll.

Quite the opposite. I am for getting rid of all these things.

But you can’t single out just AR bc it hurts your Necro. You need to do a thread like this – talking about ALL passive crap.

I’m also for removing self rez skills – for ALL professions.

Thing is, I was saying AR needed changed, I wasn’t suggesting, however that Necros didn’t need changes along with many others. XD I like balance, believe it or not. I can’t STAND the amount of FOTM Necros out there atm…

Me too, that’s why I mostly play my stun warrior in tournies right now.

Haha, I play what I always did. MM Necro. I will defend MM necro to the death because despite what people believe, it DOES take skill to play them in high end competitive, the skill isn’t in having them, its keeping best up-time and keeping them alive in the onslaught of aoe. That said, I get furious when I see MM having a full bar of minions and using staff and running circles like its a kitten Phantasm Mesmer T_T

I love passives. With lack of a mouse or the ability to hold right-click, my peak PVP performance is severely limited. I only have so much mental capacity to both maneuver my character, pay attention to tells on the screen, and click on my various utilities. To say that builds like these do not take skill is absurd, since it requires maintenance and positioning and timing. Using their activation abilities at the wrong time is just as costly and wasteful as if you wasted a skill that didn’t sit on the field before using it.

Building for them requires sacrifices, too. When a player picks something like dagger training for their utility, they have to do this at the cost of picking something else for a utility. They have to invest those trait points into that line, and then pick dagger training over improvisation or quick venoms. These abilities aren’t some free benefit that gets thrown on top of whatever it is you use. It is there instead of something else.

Maintenance =/= skill. The fact is that players exist that choose to use builds that are lower maintenance than some 20-cooldowns button mashfest (my biggest criticism as an engineer main), and there is nothing wrong with having a low maintenance build. The only thing wrong here is that players are intolerant of other people’s playstyles.

jmatb.6307:

Phantaram.1265:

Completely agree with this. The perfect example of something that is nearly the complete opposite of being active is spirit ranger. Spam 1 on your shortbow and if they get close just activate all spirits! You’ve now played this class to near optimization grats. Skill needs to be a more emphasized part of the game. And if simple builds are to stay in, they shouldn’t be the strongest builds.

Yeah Ranger keeps getting lazier and lazier. If they aren’t riding their pet, they’re riding spirits. Signets and traits remove conditions better than anyone without having to worry about it.

When you don’t have to use your utilities at all and other professions have to bring Lyssa runes or certain utilities just to survive long enough to contribute there’s a serious problem.

Why yes rangers must be lazy for attempting and using builds that work or stand a chance in 1v1 and group settings. Balthazar forbid we are actually able to do or beat anything. Instead we should clearly just all use the pig pet and be forced to fight with whatever it drops in order to keep the fight “active” enough.

While we have a nice CD removal if traited for it, it still works on a cooldown so if your just spamming conditions at the start like confetti then I think its perfectly reasonable that it can be removed.

In terms of spirits. Kill them, then the ranger.

And I would disagree with the not using of utilities. Passive utilities have an active and have times when the active is useful at the cost of the passive (accept when traited on an ele) and I find it unlikely that most people running signets or spirits/minions and not using the utilities are succeeding on a regular basis.

Still on the vendetta against rangers, even after the last thread was deleted lol.

Aphoticrain.8420:

jmatb.6307:

Phantaram.1265:

Completely agree with this. The perfect example of something that is nearly the complete opposite of being active is spirit ranger. Spam 1 on your shortbow and if they get close just activate all spirits! You’ve now played this class to near optimization grats. Skill needs to be a more emphasized part of the game. And if simple builds are to stay in, they shouldn’t be the strongest builds.

Yeah Ranger keeps getting lazier and lazier. If they aren’t riding their pet, they’re riding spirits. Signets and traits remove conditions better than anyone without having to worry about it.

When you don’t have to use your utilities at all and other professions have to bring Lyssa runes or certain utilities just to survive long enough to contribute there’s a serious problem.

Why yes rangers must be lazy for attempting and using builds that work or stand a chance in 1v1 and group settings. Balthazar forbid we are actually able to do or beat anything. Instead we should clearly just all use the pig pet and be forced to fight with whatever it drops in order to keep the fight “active” enough.

While we have a nice CD removal if traited for it, it still works on a cooldown so if your just spamming conditions at the start like confetti then I think its perfectly reasonable that it can be removed.

In terms of spirits. Kill them, then the ranger.

And I would disagree with the not using of utilities. Passive utilities have an active and have times when the active is useful at the cost of the passive (accept when traited on an ele) and I find it unlikely that most people running signets or spirits/minions and not using the utilities are succeeding on a regular basis.

Hyperbole much?

I never said Rangers need to be nerfed into oblivion. I just want them and any other spec that relies on passive bonuses to actually earn their productivity by using their utilities and weapons skillfully.

I can respect Rangers who run traps or power builds. They have to actually time their skills and utilities. They aren’t going to survive if they don’t.

But when you get empathic bond that requires no effort, signets that require little effort, and spirits that require almost no effort, and you can play better, because of the spec, than entire professions played by skilled players using a single target strategy that is complete garbage.

People should just not spec for anything, that way it’s all about skill.

Sorry guys, I don’t think ANet is going to split PvP and PvE traits and skills just to satisfy 10% (at most) of the top players. Besides even if they did top level players are so fickle they’d just find something else to complain about. Remember all the RNG talk during BWEs? It might be the case that GW2 is just not gonna meet your needs for balance and skill comparison. Meanwhile the rest of us scrubs are still having fun.

It’s not about scrubs vs. elites I could care less about whether or not the top players get buffs or special treatment.

If they’re really that good they’ll stay good and for the vast majority of the case they have.

Balance is not going to be achieved perfectly that’s not possible. It is possible to prioritize active play vs. passive that’s a relatively easy fix compared to a total revamp of traits, attributes, etc.

jmatb.6307:

Aphoticrain.8420:

jmatb.6307:

Phantaram.1265:

Completely agree with this. The perfect example of something that is nearly the complete opposite of being active is spirit ranger. Spam 1 on your shortbow and if they get close just activate all spirits! You’ve now played this class to near optimization grats. Skill needs to be a more emphasized part of the game. And if simple builds are to stay in, they shouldn’t be the strongest builds.

Yeah Ranger keeps getting lazier and lazier. If they aren’t riding their pet, they’re riding spirits. Signets and traits remove conditions better than anyone without having to worry about it.

When you don’t have to use your utilities at all and other professions have to bring Lyssa runes or certain utilities just to survive long enough to contribute there’s a serious problem.

Why yes rangers must be lazy for attempting and using builds that work or stand a chance in 1v1 and group settings. Balthazar forbid we are actually able to do or beat anything. Instead we should clearly just all use the pig pet and be forced to fight with whatever it drops in order to keep the fight “active” enough.

While we have a nice CD removal if traited for it, it still works on a cooldown so if your just spamming conditions at the start like confetti then I think its perfectly reasonable that it can be removed.

In terms of spirits. Kill them, then the ranger.

And I would disagree with the not using of utilities. Passive utilities have an active and have times when the active is useful at the cost of the passive (accept when traited on an ele) and I find it unlikely that most people running signets or spirits/minions and not using the utilities are succeeding on a regular basis.

Hyperbole much?

I never said Rangers need to be nerfed into oblivion. I just want them and any other spec that relies on passive bonuses to actually earn their productivity by using their utilities and weapons skillfully.

I can respect Rangers who run traps or power builds. They have to actually time their skills and utilities. They aren’t going to survive if they don’t.

But when you get empathic bond that requires no effort, signets that require little effort, and spirits that require almost no effort, and you can play better, because of the spec, than entire professions played by skilled players using a single target strategy that is complete garbage.

I played signet ranger for a little while and its a bit lack luster in my opinion it is by no means something that does not require skill. I have not played spirit ranger so I can’t really speak for that.

Signet Ranger has the option of 4 signets.

Signet of Renewal – "Passive: Cures a condition every ten seconds. Active: Your pet pulls all conditions from nearby allies to itself. "
With empathetic bond this is removing four conditions every 10s. If you are putting out sustained CD every 10s of removal helps mitigate some of that damage but there is gaps allowing for CD to take effect. Plus once the ranger hit the sigil to purge conditions they are pretty much open to CD damage.

Signet of Stone -“Improves toughness for you and your pet. Active: Your pet takes no damage from attacks”
This passive is pretty meh. It gives 100 toughness which really isnt that yay. The active however can be effective in BM builds or if the Signets are shared. However like many active skills timing is necessary to be effective.

Signet of the Hunt – "Grants 25% increased movement speed to you and your pet.Active: Your pet’s next attack deals more damage "
Movement speed is also a bit meh to me. Good for roaming I guess. However the active is nice for a spike.

Signet of the Wild – "Grants health regeneration to you and your pet.Active: Your pet grows larger, dealing more damage and gaining stability. "
So this can make for a strong addition to a bunker build but I think any solid burst and CD will eventually eat through the possible Regen. Active allows for another spike though its not drastic as Sig of the Hunt.

I’m trying to understand how you see these skills as requiring no effort to use effectively.

These are the kinds of posts that make me wonder if people have played PvP to be honest. I know what the signets do. When you total it all up, where you have constant regen boon, regen from the signet, passive and active condi clearing, 20+ seconds of stability, passive effortless condi removal….

Yes, a signet Ranger is lackluster alone if you’re just looking at the utilities. The meta builds for Ranger at the moment tell a different story though.

jmatb.6307:

Yeah Ranger keeps getting lazier and lazier. If they aren’t riding their pet, they’re riding spirits. Signets and traits remove conditions better than anyone without having to worry about it.

When you don’t have to use your utilities at all and other professions have to bring Lyssa runes or certain utilities just to survive long enough to contribute there’s a serious problem.

jmatb.6307:

These are the kinds of posts that make me wonder if people have played PvP to be honest.

jmatb.6307:

These are the kinds of posts that make me wonder if people have played PvP to be honest. I know what the signets do. When you total it all up, where you have constant regen boon, regen from the signet, passive and active condi clearing, 20+ seconds of stability, passive effortless condi removal….

Yes, a signet Ranger is lackluster alone if you’re just looking at the utilities. The meta builds for Ranger at the moment tell a different story though.

Alright I will agree to disagree. I’m not saying the build isn’t strong but I acknowledge that the people who use it are thinking and reacting like you would with any build. It seems to me that you don’t enjoy bunker builds and to each his own I guess. Granted I will say that the CD removal is a bit excessive but it offers a counter to the current state of conditions. Regardless the condescending tone that is seeping in and out of your words makes it clear that while you may acknowledge what other people are saying its your way or the high way.

swiftpaw.6397:

jmatb.6307:

Yeah Ranger keeps getting lazier and lazier. If they aren’t riding their pet, they’re riding spirits. Signets and traits remove conditions better than anyone without having to worry about it.

When you don’t have to use your utilities at all and other professions have to bring Lyssa runes or certain utilities just to survive long enough to contribute there’s a serious problem.

jmatb.6307:

These are the kinds of posts that make me wonder if people have played PvP to be honest.

Get 150 tpvp wins on a thief and tell me that it’s not much, much more difficult than a ranger.

Wtf are you guys talking about, all traits are passive. Do you even know what active and passive means?

jmatb.6307:

Improvisation (steal recharges utilities)

This is a passive trait. Just because the benefits are attached to an available active skill doesn’t make it any less of a passive trait.

Arguing semantics ftw…

It’s not semantics, it’s logic. Show me one passive trait that gives you an active skill that you don’t already have access to.

jmatb.6307:

Get 150 tpvp wins on a thief and tell me that it’s not much, much more difficult than a ranger.

jmatb.6307:

It’s not about scrubs vs. elites .

Pretty sure even Jonathan Sharp said on the last SoTG that he doesn’t like the passive stuff and wants to try to shift more stuff toward active and rewarding play. Then he talked about Guardian’s Smite Condition skill a bit and ideas for it that would further reward skillful active use of the ability. Maybe this will happen….

I’ll be honest, I have never seen more facepalm inducing posts in quite a while. If the Ranger is using spirits, then it goes without saying to kill the spirits. Those things are like paper, easily shred through. Though I’m wondering…TC, are you losing because of them getting more points due to capturing locations, or are you losing due to them killing your team? Your answer shall determine my response.

@jmatb, I would be interested to see your build you ran to get the tourney wins (being in a team).

Did Warrior, Thief, and Engi. Only 25 more wins for Ele now.

I never really stuck to a single build more than about 10 or so matches. Almost all the wins are from solo queues too. I run with some friends at times, but when they’re not on and I’m on I’ll queue up.

I figure learning about the class is more important than copying and pasting other people’s builds.

Warrior did everything from Hammer to GS to Longbow, Axe/Mace, double Mace, and Rifle. That was my first one and I love Warrior to this day. Everything feels easier after you play warrior for a long time and earn everything you get. I have to admit I tried out Golraeder’s Axe/Mace Lyssa roamer setup for a lot of those wins, but then tried different things out after I realized I was just copying that spec and not really mastering warrior XD.

Engi ran some HGH but really liked Bombs, Flamethrower, and bunker builds. I love trolling on Engi, especially on Skyhammer XD. Turrets suck don’t run those unless you have ground targeting and put them out of reach like Xavian Johnson LOL.

Thief was the most important one to me because there is so much risk/reward on thief that teaches you so much about the game you wouldn’t know otherwise. Never ran S/D for more than a couple matches because I hate how easy it is. D/P and D/D were the weapons I usually ran w/ Longbow on Foefire and when I knew I would be in a lot of teamfights.

Ele i’ve done D/D most of the time, but I have to admit S/D after the 26th has been rofl hilarious at times and you get a bunch of sustain from water. I’ve done bunker with focus and ether renewal for a bit it was interesting. Staff is awful though you get trained so quickly people know what it will do if you let it.

The first class i would complain about , would probably be the ele . So much sustain irrelevant of the gear you take . Simply absurd .

Phantaram.1265:

Completely agree with this. The perfect example of something that is nearly the complete opposite of being active is spirit ranger. Spam 1 on your shortbow and if they get close just activate all spirits! You’ve now played this class to near optimization grats. Skill needs to be a more emphasized part of the game. And if simple builds are to stay in, they shouldn’t be the strongest builds.

What are the activation times for the spirits? Have you actually played them and measured the time it takes after you press the button for the spirit to raise his hand and pound the ground for the effect? Have you looked at the cooldowns on them, and why dodging out of it wouldn’t work as well as dodging through traps?

Have you thought why ranger shortbow is 1 spam? Maybe because the rest of the skills, particularly #2, suck pretty badly? Because #4 makes the PET apply a bleed without condi damage modifiers?

It’s not exactly the rangers’ faults that their only viable builds revolve around dodging, healing, and procs given their native damage sucks, they can’t run GC at all let alone any version of a power build because the coefficients are so garbage low due to a crap AI that can’t even keep up with targets running with swiftness and take 2+ seconds to activate an f2 you needed much earlier than whenever the AI decided it felt like using it?

—

Hell, I’d love to run any build that didn’t require 30 points into Wilderness Survival or Nature Magic, let alone toughness stacking.

When you see eles able to run 1500 toughness and retain the burst they have plus all the team utility, while your ranger needs to run 2k+ toughness to be anywhere as good a bunker with nowhere near as good team fight utility, there’s something wrong.

Eles have to use their skills to get that sustain though. Rangers literally just cast their heal, take certain skills and traits, and dance around like ponies. They might as well have a unicorn pet so one of my friends’ names for her ranger makes sense

Valks ammy is pretty strong with anybody if you want sustain, I’ve done some builds on Engi and Warrior with it that end up doing pretty well

jmatb.6307:

Eles have to use their skills to get that sustain though. Rangers literally just cast their heal, take certain skills and traits, and dance around like ponies. They might as well have a unicorn pet so one of my friends’ names for her ranger makes sense

Oh, sure, like it’s so hard to press water attunement and dodge soon afterwards.

I’m sure randomly pressing serpent strike and stalker strike will get you places against competent opponents. Keep believing that.

jmatb.6307:

Eles have to use their skills to get that sustain though. Rangers literally just cast their heal, take certain skills and traits, and dance around like ponies. They might as well have a unicorn pet so one of my friends’ names for her ranger makes sense

The amount of facepalm… It cannot be contained.

swiftpaw you’re providing nothing intelligent to the thread please leave.

thank you

jmatb.6307:

swiftpaw you’re providing nothing intelligent to the thread please leave.

thank you

Irony strikes again

Zenith.7301:

jmatb.6307:

Eles have to use their skills to get that sustain though. Rangers literally just cast their heal, take certain skills and traits, and dance around like ponies. They might as well have a unicorn pet so one of my friends’ names for her ranger makes sense

Oh, sure, like it’s so hard to press water attunement and dodge soon afterwards.

I’m sure randomly pressing serpent strike and stalker strike will get you places against competent opponents. Keep believing that.

By changing attunements to water you are actually very vulnerable to burst and cc when all your healing is done. Plus when heavily traited in water the last thing you want to do is sit in water attunement more so than any other element.

By dodging in water with evasive arcana for heals means one less dodge to avoid burst attempts.