Guild Wars 2

Not just you. Our guild is losing kittenloads of people as of June 23rd 2015. Even the hardcore players who have stuck around this long are leaving.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Not just you. Our guild is losing kittenloads of people as of June 23rd 2015. Even the hardcore players who have stuck around this long are leaving.

haha wonder if from a year from now they will look at that patch as the day PvP died..

I personally was happy with the patch as it changed things up, but wow it did not get test properly.

My thoughts:
- bad balance
- lots of bugs( some bugs still exist since release)/ lazy bug fixing
- bad matchmaking
- no leaderboard
- no fresh stuff
- have to queue in hotm

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Not just you. Our guild is losing kittenloads of people as of June 23rd 2015. Even the hardcore players who have stuck around this long are leaving.

haha wonder if from a year from now they will look at that patch as the day PvP died..

I personally was happy with the patch as it changed things up, but wow it did not get test properly.

LOL, you scrubs weren’t around before Dhuumfire. There was a time when the Hotjoin maps were full from server 1 to 30., Dhuumfire came and literally destroyed PvP. Any player that wanted it to make it their Esport game and make a living from it, left. Dhuumfire annihilated the PvP hardcore community. Reducing the amount of hotjoin servers from ~30ish to 3 or 4 and stayed that way.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Not just you. Our guild is losing kittenloads of people as of June 23rd 2015. Even the hardcore players who have stuck around this long are leaving.

haha wonder if from a year from now they will look at that patch as the day PvP died..

I personally was happy with the patch as it changed things up, but wow it did not get test properly.

LOL, you scrubs weren’t around before Dhuumfire. There was a time when the Hotjoin maps were full from server 1 to 30., Dhuumfire came and literally destroyed PvP. Any player that wanted it to make it their Esport game and make a living from it, left. Dhuumfire annihilated the PvP hardcore community. Reducing the amount of hotjoin servers from ~30ish to 3 or 4 and stayed that way.

This is true, and the problem then was the same as now. People didn’t give up the day Dhuumfire came out, they gave up in 3-4 weeks when NOTHING was done about it. The have shown themselves repeatedly incapable of competently responding to balance issues. “SHAVING”??!?! Shaving happens when you gradually adjust things in small patches every couple of weeks. What they currently do is chainsaw-balancing every 6-months to 1 year, where some things are obliterated and others untouched b/c they are scared from having only 1 chance a year to get it right.

When people say that pvp died now, it is like a second death. PvP gradually rebuilt numbers after reward tracks were introduced, but all of the system problems (lack of balance frequency, lack of leaderboards, INCREDIBLY SLOW pace of pvp development, removal of high-skill play in favor of low-counterplay with instants, auto-procs, and invulnerabilities/stealth reigning supreme) have really driven off most people who want to play it more than just “for their dailies”

Everything wasn’t sunshine and bunnies before dhuumfire. The game had way more balance issues than just dhuumfire. Warriors, decap engis, mesmers, eles, all of these things have been very overpowered at some point.
To be honest, the game was at its most balanced state prior to this specialization patch but everybody expected a disequilibrium to happen to the balance after such drastic changes to everything.

But I do agree that a lot of PvP and WvW people are actually leaving due to frustration. I always think about it too when I get smashed by mesmers or other cheap stuff in this current meta. Unfortunately, balancing the current meta is not just about fixing a particular mesmer skill. The root of the problem is much deeper and I’m hoping that the reason they haven’t released a significant post-specialization balance update is because they’ve been taking their time looking for the actual issue.

I am done too. What a kittening joke game.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Not just you. Our guild is losing kittenloads of people as of June 23rd 2015. Even the hardcore players who have stuck around this long are leaving.

haha wonder if from a year from now they will look at that patch as the day PvP died..

I personally was happy with the patch as it changed things up, but wow it did not get test properly.

LOL, you scrubs weren’t around before Dhuumfire. There was a time when the Hotjoin maps were full from server 1 to 30., Dhuumfire came and literally destroyed PvP. Any player that wanted it to make it their Esport game and make a living from it, left. Dhuumfire annihilated the PvP hardcore community. Reducing the amount of hotjoin servers from ~30ish to 3 or 4 and stayed that way.

hahah what makes you think I wasn’t around before than. I’ve been around since closed beta. After 7 months I left to come back to finding tournaments no longer exist, scoreboard is a placeholder table, no more pvp exclusive gear. I question how pvp even exist at all in this game.

sublime goes doggy.4826:

Sunshine.5014:

It’s just you OP. This meta is much better than the meta of bunkers/shoutbow poking each other on point. People actually die in this meta 1v2. The fast pace gameplay (and Vigor need) bring risk to random dodge and reward good timing.

• +1 , this balance actually rewards ppl with good positionement, punish mistake (like ppl who overextend), force more team plays, etc.

I really dont mind mesmer burst I think it is good that way..
I think that what needs to be rework is the ICD between Mantra (when its channeled), only because it is hard to see coming cause of the instant cast and easy access cause of the low ICD ..

One thing that comes to my mind, is that stealth does not break immediately when I attack someone. I can perform some weapon skills (but not all), activate some mantras and few other things while remaining stealthed. I can have like 2-3 seconds of atatcks from stealth, I do count clone / phantasm generation and shatters as attacks. This might actually be a bug that needs to be fixed. If anet did fix this, then by default mes stealth will become far more managable.

As someone thats played mes since game launch, IMHO this is what makes mesmers most OP. Not the stealth duration, or the mantras or even the total burst damage, as the said burst mes can be easily dropped by a single combo from a war if his CDs are used up. Of course, those of us that are a bit smarter save our CDs, but that is not always possible and the War can save CDs as well. So in this regard things are balanced, high burst squishy build can drop another high burst squishy build with ease if they time things right.

Also, just in case anyone wonders, I actually play a Condi Shatter / Support mes in SPVP as I have found the power shatter to be too much of a “1 trick pony” and lacking in flexibility for different situations.

As far as people leaving ? Well, variety of reasons. I have left and came back to SPVP in this game a few times, this time around I enjoy playing my Engi most of all, followed by my Mes and Burn Guard. When I get bored of the new builds etc. I will probably leave again, but, I do have more fun options then I have had in the past.

Don’t let the door hit you guys on the way out!

To all the QQ’ers/quitters, feel free to mail me your gold/valuables when you leave. Kthx

Ofc they are leaving. People waited 18 months for any changes and when it came they ended up doing stuff like buffing celestial amulet so it now offers a higher percentage stat differential than ever before.

Power creep killed this game. I said it in every forum post I ever made. Everyone ignored me.

Enjoy your dead game with power creeped uncounterable BS

The lack of a leaderboard is a pretty effing big problem.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ofc they are leaving. People waited 18 months for any changes and when it came they ended up doing stuff like buffing celestial amulet so it now offers a higher percentage stat differential than ever before.

Power creep killed this game. I said it in every forum post I ever made. Everyone ignored me.

Enjoy your dead game with power creeped uncounterable BS

By any chance, are you leaving forums and game?

Well, i don’t know about the others, but i left because of dumbfire, i came back to leave again because of the solo queue engi fest, and now i’m about to leave again thanks to PU / mantra shatter blind bots, cele ele burn + blind bots, rampage war bots (not so much this last one but it still ruins the day out of nowhere).

I guess it’s my own fault for not rolling one of the 4 so called meta /impulse101 builds.

I don’t understand Anet’s process, and the more i think about it, the more it figures they gave up on balance waaay back then and decided they’d rather play fot6m musical chairs instead, much easier to do.

muscarine.5136:

Well, i don’t know about the others, but i left because of dumbfire, i came back to leave again because of the solo queue engi fest, and now i’m about to leave again thanks to PU / mantra shatter blind bots, cele ele burn + blind bots, rampage war bots (not so much this last one but it still ruins the day out of nowhere).

I guess it’s my own fault for not rolling one of the 4 so called meta /impulse101 builds.

No.
It’s your own fault for not being able to enjoy eSport pvp level.

Go for ESL and improve.

#Anet_PvP_PoV2015

Well, what else is it good for, besides reward tracks/dailies?

That being said, this game’s PvP is better than any other of the games I’ve played. Then again, PvP tends to be a crapshoot regardless of what game you play anyways.

I’ve try pvp in other games and that’s the best and more balanced pvp I’ve ever try.
Try it on the old games like lineage 2, aion or wow, or in the new ones like archage, FFXIV and more.
There’s a large amount of broken classes that simply you can’t defeat and classes that simply you have to not use in pvp because they’re so bad in pvp that is a waste of time try to use them.

Actually isn’t perfectly balanced and mesmers have a very high survavibility compared with they’re damage and ANet have to reduce a little (only a little) them bot, for example by cance the trait that increase the damage of Shatter skills and reduce to 50% the duration of stealth increased by the trait PU.

Out of that I don’t see a large problem. Necros are very strong, warrior deal high damage, thiefs have hard days actually why it’s difficult deal damage without be insta-killed and there’s classes like guardian that they simply can’t defeat.

I play a condi-guardian and I can say that the meta is actually well balanced.

Only few things to tone down or to tone up and it’s perfect.

Silv.9207:

I’ve try pvp in other games and that’s the best and more balanced pvp I’ve ever try.
Try it on the old games like lineage 2, aion or wow, or in the new ones like archage, FFXIV and more.
There’s a large amount of broken classes that simply you can’t defeat and classes that simply you have to not use in pvp because they’re so bad in pvp that is a waste of time try to use them.

Last two MMO’s I’ve played every class was wanted in PvP.

For example the last MMO I played was Rift, from about 5 months in for around15 months, when I played every class had options, there were weak trees, but that was about it, every class had options, warrior could go anti-caster with voidknight or with a decent healer behind them were really strong going DPS, cleric was best PvP healer in the game, also at times had other options like nice AOE build for larger group PvP, Mage could go full damage or have maybe the most influential build in the game if played well (chlorodom) and rogue could go tanky melee, assassin for picking off individuals, ranged specs or even support as a bard in larger PvP formats.

The problem with balance in GW2 is that it does not have hard roles (though I guess thief is sort of close to having one), in a typical MMO, if they overnerf the single target healer spec, it doesn’t matter, you still need the healer, if they overnerf the support class, doesn;t matter you still want it for larger scale PvP maps and so on. The class gets protected by having a hard role, in GW2 if something gets nerfed then there are multiple classes ready to replace that class (thief aside to an extent).

The other problem with GW2 PvP is it is only 5v5 and only one format (I barely count teh joke that is courtyard), there is no variety, in other games, specs that are not great for 3v3/5v5, etc often still have a place in PvP because there are 10vs10, 15vs15, 20vs20, etc, or something that may be weak in deathmatch, is strong in capture the flag, etc, so even if our favourite class becomes unfavoured in one format, it is still wanted in other formats.

And that is just PvP, when it comes to PvE & WvW, this is a game where balance is so bad the same classes have been ‘unwanted’ in those modes for three years.

Every class is wanted in GW2’s PvP as well. Sometimes, some builds take the helm though.

Rift is well balanced. I’ve try it years ago and it was a really bad game. With some changes, actually it’s better than where I’ve try it.
The thing that there’s different format of pvp is the key that make rift a “balanced” game.
But there’s always 2 build that shine over all the others in every class.
There’s only 4 classes then is obvious that they’re all wanted and is very easy to make a class viable: make 2 subclass good to do something and, ehy, it’s a very good class!
But there’s always some subclass that no one use.
Back to the time I played it, no one was playing warlord, reaver and paragon why they’re underpowered and someone used it only as a filler in they’re build. Now the things can be changed (i’ve try if a little when it become free for a weekend and some subclasses was coming better than before), but there’s still subclasses that no one use as main and some that no one use at all. (or just for fun).

A game with 4 classes and the trinity system is very easy to balance.

GW2 isn’t like that. There’s not the trinity and there’s no roles.
That make GW2 moe balanced and unbalanced.

We all hope that ANet will add something for pvp like 10vs10, 3vs3, new kinds of pvp like steal the flagg (they will add the stronghold that’s a good map, I like it, add something new to the actual game).

Anyway spvp is funny and more or less balanced. There’s something to work on, but it’s better than a large amount of MMORPG games.

Sube Dai.8496:

The lack of a leaderboard is a pretty effing big problem.

This.

I love this game. It’s the most i play of any game. But pvp is terrible now. Unless you are in a competitive team doing weekly tournaments, there is kitten all for anyone else.

Like how hard is it to just get the ladder board back up and running!? It sucks anyway but at least its SOMETHING to do while yolo queueing/ duo queueing.

I just dont get ANets thought process on anything really. It’s like the game is in a constant Beta/testing phase.

Pvp is dull, predictable, even less diversity with builds now the new trait system forces you into certain lines and take useless traits just for that one good one.

I left PvP because it just isn’t fun anymore. The change into the current specialization system and restrictive “traits” just made the imbalance problems way too pronounced, and now we’re even more at ANet’s mercy for them to fix it, since we can’t make creative builds to build around shortcomings of our professions, or the strengths of others.

The current damage model is also just completely off, and obviously burning and shatter mesmers don’t help much either. As was mentioned earlier, it now feels like each battle is way more a “luck of the draw” than before.

I was considering going back to WvW but things are even worse there, I left the game. I still check the forums and updates in case things change.

A player who is better with there class than you are with yours will always win. Face the fact some people are better then you are and you’ll be alot happier. No matter how good you think you are, some people are better than you.

Damian.6978:

I left PvP because it just isn’t fun anymore. The change into the current specialization system and restrictive “traits” just made the imbalance problems way too pronounced, and now we’re even more at ANet’s mercy for them to fix it, since we can’t make creative builds to build around shortcomings of our professions, or the strengths of others.

The current damage model is also just completely off, and obviously burning and shatter mesmers don’t help much either. As was mentioned earlier, it now feels like each battle is way more a “luck of the draw” than before.

I was considering going back to WvW but things are even worse there, I left the game. I still check the forums and updates in case things change.

The bolded is a great point and concisely summarizes the entire problem at hand.

Nilkemia.8507:

That being said, this game’s PvP is better than any other of the games I’ve played.

GW2 PvP isn’t that great; it’s just every other MMORPG is so much worse.

I’ ve quit pvp becouse there is no place for my favourite class : ranger.
What a shame i loved pvp but really it’ s impossible to play decently as ranger in pvp.

Don’t blame them, with the amount of cheese builds running around that pretty much give morons the ability to act skilled for a period of time is just killing the game.

Between Mesmers sheer strength and lack of any counter.
D/D ele kittenting out sustainability and insane pressure via the absurd damage burns are doing.
Warriors having god mode for 20 seconds everytime rampage is popped, basically turning the tide of any battle without any braincells required, just tap buttons.

These are my main complaints about the current ‘pvp meta’, these 3 classes are the dominant ones, and the builds that are making them dominant require barely any knowledge or skill on the class from the player. I understand the game needs classes that are relatively strong with not much input to keep the casuals entertained, but kitten , not by this much.

BrotherBelial.3094:

A player who is better with there class than you are with yours will always win. Face the fact some people are better then you are and you’ll be alot happier. No matter how good you think you are, some people are better than you.

If two players are competing on equal terms, the better player will of course come out victorious.

But that’s why we’re having this discussion. Guild Wars 2 is, seen from an objective standpoint, an unfair game where some professions will guarantee a higher rate of success compared to others.

MarTn.3810:

BrotherBelial.3094:

A player who is better with there class than you are with yours will always win. Face the fact some people are better then you are and you’ll be alot happier. No matter how good you think you are, some people are better than you.

If two players are competing on equal terms, the better player will of course come out victorious.

But that’s why we’re having this discussion. Guild Wars 2 is, seen from an objective standpoint, an unfair game where some professions will guarantee a higher rate of success compared to others.

I can see your point, but I the games not changed that much, as one good player using a class that gives a higher rate of success will not win a match for you. A balanced team will win more often than not.

Darkness.9732:

I’ ve quit pvp becouse there is no place for my favourite class : ranger.
What a shame i loved pvp but really it’ s impossible to play decently as ranger in pvp.

I play ranger alot. I only really struggle vs mesmers and thieves. That’s down to there ability to stealth. If I can see them they die. Just like everyone else.

I love the game and will certainly be back but I have basically quit pvping for now since its awful. Mesmer is just broken AND they lowered the skill floor for them drastically. D/D Cele Ele is actually unkillable by most classes and is so far and away the best 1v1 class its not even funny.

Ranger/Engi/Non-Rampage War/Teef are all just sub par at this point. Guards/Necros feel like they are in a good spot.

Also its been a month without any real balancing OR BUG FIXING. THERE ARE SO MANY BUGS STILL WHAT ARE YOU DOING ANET!!!!!!?!?!?!?!

yeah, i feel like 2~2.5x longer quque time than before patch. This pvp content should be F2P and anet should increase members of balance team to always check balance upon the idea and tools they made, and spread this game while increasing more choice and items in their in-game store. and also release this to more countries as well. but they should have done this when anet released this game othrwise there is no meaning since this game is getting older : passed 3 years. Hope we can see it on gw3.

Despite everything, the game is still fun. It started out as a promising sequel to one of the best MMOs ever made (especially for PvP). Still great graphics and fun, polished game at its core with plenty to do and worthy value (the game as a whole…not PvP). But since release the game has consistently seen some of the worst design decisions imaginable for a game of this quality. And still these devs show week after week that they are out of touch and have no kittening clue about balance or the infrastructure of their game.

I’m not leaving because there aren’t really other good mmorpgs out there now. Seriously, this industry seems to be in a race to the bottom. Compared to like 10 years ago the quality is kitten. Graphics and tech have advanced but developers have not. And I’m staying because I’ve already invested some 10+ years on/off into this franchise and a couple hundred dollars on Gw2. I’d be happy to invest more into Gw2 but I just know these idiots aren’t using the resources properly.

Silv.9207:

If they think that Now GW2 is unbalanced, why don’t they left before, when ele and engi will be able to win in 1vs3?

Yes, ele’s burn (guardian’s can’t stack burn so frequently out of the befgin of the battle and they can’t stack 20 might by itself, making burn deal really high damage) and mesmers are actually a little OP.

But all the other classes seems to be balanced, I’ve see fights really balanced.

And there will always be a “OP” class.

If ANet tone down a little (just a little) the damage and the hide duration of mesmers and reduce a little the ability of the ele to auto-stack might and the number of burn stacks that they’re skills and traits apply (why they have too many traits and skills to applyburn in active and passive ways and that recharge too fast) everything will be ok.

I think that actually is the more balanced and funny sPvP I’ve ever played on GW2.

Because they played engi or thief or something that destroyed mesmers and now they are kittened that they need to adjust.

It’s just a shift in Fotm to be honest. More power, more burst, more active gameplay. Once people get used to actually having to dodge and watch their kitten after years of bunk/bruiser slow gameplay people wont complain as much. It just a fairly large shift. I’ll be honest some changes were too much and should be reworked as the changes make the old versions over the top ( lookin at you rampage and mantras). So yea some minor changes are needed but overall Its a step in the right direction. At the end of the day this game is as casual as you can get for an mmo and always will be. I’ll stick around as it is one of the only games I have consistently come back to over the years even though the devs seem to still have little knowledge about the classes functionality 3 years in. I have faith though that things will come around but not everyone can be happy, that fact is known.

Rampage and Mantras are fine.

You should see WvW….

RlyOsim.2497:

You should see WvW….

do not…open… the can

I don’t see people leaving. My waiting times for rated are still the same like… forever.

yup, ive just decided to quit AGAIN. kittenm it. I thought this game could temporarily quench the non-freeking-MOBA PvP thirst…it just made me mad.

burst someone down in 0.8 secs or die

“fun”

i dont even play pvp, I am waiting for some normal balance not every 6 months but at least 1 balance per month… And something more like 2vs2 maps, or at least other modes,

Karkus.6079:

yup, ive just decided to quit AGAIN. kittenm it. I thought this game could temporarily quench the non-freeking-MOBA PvP thirst…it just made me mad.

burst someone down in 0.8 secs or die

“fun”

Because cele meta with builds that can survive 1 vs 3 dishing out decent damage and fight that takes forever is more skilled and “fun”, right?

rchu.8945:

Karkus.6079:

yup, ive just decided to quit AGAIN. kittenm it. I thought this game could temporarily quench the non-freeking-MOBA PvP thirst…it just made me mad.

burst someone down in 0.8 secs or die

“fun”

Because cele meta with builds that can survive 1 vs 3 dishing out decent damage and fight that takes forever is more skilled and “fun”, right?

Those burst you down in 2 sec builds take WAY more skill than playing pathetic, good for nothing bunker build that just stays alive , enough to annoy someone else, but never even kill someone because bunker builds are the most boring builds.

Get out of here if you want a meta where it takes a half hour of dancing and rolling around to finally down someone. If you can’t handle the burst, its your fault. Learn and adapt. Its a L2P issue.

People aren’t leaving gw2 pvp because of a burst heavy meta.
They are leaving gw2 in general because its stale and boring. get a clue.

SkiTz.4590:

rchu.8945:

Because cele meta with builds that can survive 1 vs 3 dishing out decent damage and fight that takes forever is more skilled and “fun”, right?

People aren’t leaving gw2 pvp because of a burst heavy meta.

Actually, they are. Though it’s not the burst that’s the problem. It’s that the builds doing it, especially mesmer, can’t really be stopped from doing it. Executing the burst is easier than avoiding it and there’s little penalty for screwing up your burst; you just do it again a few seconds later. If you fail multiple times, you can just run away. So really, players are leaving the “no-skill insta-kill” meta.

The lack of skill on certain builds is no different from the cele meta from before the patch. Both aren’t ideal. However, at least with the cele meta, you could do something before dying horribly. That’s why it was better than this skill-less burst meta and didn’t chase people away as quickly.

If you disagree, then rebut this: s/f fresh air elementalist had just as much burst as mesmer does now and has for months if not years. It was played fairly often, but never as much as d/d ele. It’s because s/f fresh air had proper risk:reward. The burst took thought and planning to execute. If you screwed up the burst, you couldn’t easily disengage. And by investing so heavily in damage, you had to have good positioning so that you weren’t killed quickly.

SkiTz.4590:

rchu.8945:

Karkus.6079:

yup, ive just decided to quit AGAIN. kittenm it. I thought this game could temporarily quench the non-freeking-MOBA PvP thirst…it just made me mad.

burst someone down in 0.8 secs or die

“fun”

Because cele meta with builds that can survive 1 vs 3 dishing out decent damage and fight that takes forever is more skilled and “fun”, right?

Those burst you down in 2 sec builds take WAY more skill than playing pathetic, good for nothing bunker build that just stays alive , enough to annoy someone else, but never even kill someone because bunker builds are the most boring builds.

Get out of here if you want a meta where it takes a half hour of dancing and rolling around to finally down someone. If you can’t handle the burst, its your fault. Learn and adapt. Its a L2P issue.

People aren’t leaving gw2 pvp because of a burst heavy meta.
They are leaving gw2 in general because its stale and boring. get a clue.

How could bursting in 2 seconds possibly take more skill than watching the enemy, baiting dodges, and using your skills intelligently?

I think the scrubs are just excited because they can suddenly kill people.

I haven’t read the whole topic but i can say that i have left the game several times in the past because i’m a mesmer and it was impossible to fight for me on PvP. And i think that it was hard not only for me. Maybe i should cry abou it in the past and make many topics here too? Now i feel that my skills really work how they must work. But you all cry here like mesmers became gods. But they have became just like any warrior that can fight and win or die.

Annette.6278:

I haven’t read the whole topic but i can say that i have left the game several times in the past because i’m a mesmer and it was impossible to fight for me on PvP. And i think that it was hard not only for me. Maybe i should cry abou it in the past and make many topics here too? Now i feel that my skills really work how they must work. But you all cry here like mesmers became gods. But they have became just like any warrior that can fight and win or die.

So you’re saying getting blinded from mesmer shatters regardless whether you are blocking, invulnerable or dodging the shatter is intentional and working properly? Good to know. That’s just the icing on the cake regardless not taking into account the streamlined traits like extra bounce and shattering on yourself oh and of course buffing halting (which already hit like a truck) and PU which already was really good.
Basically Robert Gee just blatantly over buffed his favorite class.

The meta is IMHO the most interesting and even one of the best balanced ones, ppl leaving now would’ve left anyways….

Why only those select few can master a class? though the more the merrier, i dont mind being copied. why cant someone who bought this game today and play spvp without a doubt they will going to fail and became skilled because of how user friendly eac class is. didnt the initial plan is to aim the bigger picture? sometimes the intellectual capability of humanity keeps failing me.

Funny how almost noone complains about the most broken kittenhing at the moment – Rampage. You all play warriors or something? That class is even easier than d/d ele.