Guild Wars 2

Fivedawgs.4267:

Zodryn.4216:

Fivedawgs.4267:

2-So, you admit that they exist? But want to argue over technalities?? OK .. even shin called them and I quote " I am not used to go against thieves with shield"

3- just like number 2, you deny the claim then go on to say that they exist and claim that it’s not viable…

No, there is no such thing as a shield thief or an illusion thief. Period. He tried to clarify what in the world you were referring to, since they do not exist.

Do you call a minion master an illusion necro? No, that makes no sense. Calling thieves who use Thieves Guild “illusion thieves” is similarly silly. Thieves Guild gives you two allies that deal very low damage and last 30s on a 180s cooldown. How do you make an “illusion thief” (implying those allies are the primary focus of the build) out of that? Similarly, how do you make a “shield thief” with one single block skill? It’s a great skill, but no thief builds revolve around blocking (or “shielding” if you insist on using the word shield) because we simply don’t have any other blocks!

I dont main thief and i have never touched them.
I dont main thief and i have never touched them.
I dont main thief and i have never touched them.
I dont main thief and i have never touched them.
I dont main thief and i have never touched them.
I dont main thief and i have never touched them.
I dont main thief and i have never touched them.
I dont main thief and i have never touched them.
I dont main thief and i have never touched them.

Discussions over folks

Anyway now the Devs can know with video proof why this build like the druid or the guardian trap damage or even the mesmers torment on shatter is taking people away from the pvp player base.

I just played a match where players were saying if you want to play with skill your playing the wrong game. And its Sad because people desiring an ESPORT pvp platform are leaving for other games that are less cluttered with tacky year by year addons that don’t balance the game. It’s the truth. I have already called out the other classes now it is thief’s turn.

Fivedawgs, yes I get your point. It’s a technicality about the wording you used. But whether you say “shield” or “block,” “illusion” or “ally,” that doesn’t change the fact that taking Bandit’s Defense does not make your build a “block build.” It’s a viable skill that you can fit into a build for extra defense, but it is never the crux of a build. For example, I can take Bandit’s Defense in a perma evade condi build, or a power D/P build. Those builds are not “block builds” then just because I use that one skill.

Again, if I run venomshare, I can take Thieves Guild to share the venoms with my summoned allies. That doesn’t make it an “illusion” or “minion” build or whatever you want to call it. It’s still venomshare. Not that anyone runs Thieves Guild anyway, because it sucks.

You admit to never having touched a thief and yet you’re trying to school thief mains since launch on what our viable builds are.

Going back to your list
1) venomshare is a viable build (in PvE)
2) there is no viable block build, if you want one, run engi or guard
3) there is no viable summon allies build, if you want one, run necro
4) “perma” evade is a viable build using either D/D condi or power staff
5) you ignored the meta power D/P build

Yes I play broken builds to test if they really are broken. It is what I have fun doing. Then I turn around with a full understanding of what is broken and what isn’t. If anything this should enhance my credibility.

I prefer to test builds to see which ones are unfair that is why people often see me playing a variety of broken builds.

Fivedawgs.4267:

dominik.9721:

Salamander.2504:

Fivedawgs, you asked a forum poster above if he could explain why he disagreed with you. I then helpfully responded why he probably disagreed with you. That’s all.

Ye thank you, appreciated. His post was so wrong and laughable at the same time, I just couldn’t answer anything to him at this time.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Are you kitten ing stupid or what?? Do the minions look like the necro?? Are you missing brain cells or what??

Hard words for somebody who is talking about ‘illusion thiefs’ , ’ shield thiefs’ and who considers venom share thief viable.

So, my argument about build diversity is still valid.

Ye it is. The build diversity for thief is nearly the best in game with the well known illusion thief, perma evade thief, shield thief and venom share thief.
I think you forgot the trap thief and the perma stealth thief, tho.

Make thief great again, vote Fivedawgs

Lol, you are having a field day over technalities, which is sad. Yet you can’t a dress the issue at hand. In a coordinated team, Venom share is viable, shield utility thief work great against warrior, i have seen illusion or guild initiative thief twice in ranked and once in unrank… so is there anything besides technalities that you disagree with?

Needless to say, I have never said that thieves were the most diverse class, but that had a few build they could rely on… but jump around the topic

“RELY ON” … Thieves Guild … An elite that never was even nearly meta, let alone shown as “alternative” in any meta-build or something. You think that minions aren’t illusions cause of not looking like the nec, well, the thieves summoned by thieves guild have their own style that can try to copy, but I never saw someone doing that for sure.
Venomshare is a funbuild. If you think that irs viable… well… them we don’t need to argue further.

I saw a rev with ventari in unranked 1 or 2 weeks ago. Does that mean it belongs into a viable build-diversity (alternative option) in your opinion? Maybe in hotjoin…

It goes to the same category like fresh-air ele.

My thoughts may be different to yours, but imo build diversity consists of more or less viable builds you can play without having a huge disadvantage just because its not that one metabuild. You can go and try fresh-air ele, but will never have the impact a bunker-ele has. Ergo no build diversity in case of ele.

Thieves have one viable build right now and that is D/P. You can use blind powder or bandits defence, but that doesn’t changes the idea of that build.
I like staff but its not really an alternative in competitive play. At least in EU (and staff is better than S/D or any other weapon right now).

Yeah, i played some times against the reborn unicorn-death-lotus-blossom D/D condi-build as rev and thief without much condiremove. Mostly one good interrupt and that thief was gone. Its an easy but boring to use build that any better player will almost never play. Annoying like S/D nowadays but far away from deadlyness the old acro S/D had.

Zodryn.4216:

Fivedawgs, yes I get your point. It’s a technicality about the wording you used. But whether you say “shield” or “block,” “illusion” or “ally,” that doesn’t change the fact that taking Bandit’s Defense does not make your build a “block build.” It’s a viable skill that you can fit into a build for extra defense, but it is never the crux of a build. For example, I can take Bandit’s Defense in a perma evade condi build, or a power D/P build. Those builds are not “block builds” then just because I use that one skill.

Again, if I run venomshare, I can take Thieves Guild to share the venoms with my summoned allies. That doesn’t make it an “illusion” or “minion” build or whatever you want to call it. It’s still venomshare. Not that anyone runs Thieves Guild anyway, because it sucks.

You admit to never having touched a thief and yet you’re trying to school thief mains since launch on what our viable builds are.

Going back to your list
1) venomshare is a viable build (in PvE)
2) there is no viable block build, if you want one, run engi or guard
3) there is no viable summon allies build, if you want one, run necro
4) “perma” evade is a viable build using either D/D condi or power staff
5) you ignored the meta power D/P build

Venomshare and Illusion or guild thief elite are supposed to be two different builds.. Anwyays to go through your list:

1-) Venom share has always been meta in wvw, and works with a coordinated team in pvp. I have won ranked game thanks to a venom share thief.

2-) Almost all thief, run the Shield utility when up against warrior, Like you said, there might not be a shield build, but i am referring to that shield, like switching one utility for another. Trust me, it helps a lot…

3-) I wouldn’t be surprised if it either suck or high skill cap, but i have seen it twice in ranked and once in unranked.

And note, i have never said, they were hyper strong… but id be willing to bet that a high skill player could make number 3 work. And of course, the others choice (engi or whatever) are better, these are just alternatives…

Coronit.9432:

Fivedawgs.4267:

dominik.9721:

Salamander.2504:

Fivedawgs, you asked a forum poster above if he could explain why he disagreed with you. I then helpfully responded why he probably disagreed with you. That’s all.

Ye thank you, appreciated. His post was so wrong and laughable at the same time, I just couldn’t answer anything to him at this time.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Are you kitten ing stupid or what?? Do the minions look like the necro?? Are you missing brain cells or what??

Hard words for somebody who is talking about ‘illusion thiefs’ , ’ shield thiefs’ and who considers venom share thief viable.

So, my argument about build diversity is still valid.

Ye it is. The build diversity for thief is nearly the best in game with the well known illusion thief, perma evade thief, shield thief and venom share thief.
I think you forgot the trap thief and the perma stealth thief, tho.

Make thief great again, vote Fivedawgs

Lol, you are having a field day over technalities, which is sad. Yet you can’t a dress the issue at hand. In a coordinated team, Venom share is viable, shield utility thief work great against warrior, i have seen illusion or guild initiative thief twice in ranked and once in unrank… so is there anything besides technalities that you disagree with?

Needless to say, I have never said that thieves were the most diverse class, but that had a few build they could rely on… but jump around the topic

“RELY ON” … Thieves Guild … An elite that never was even nearly meta, let alone shown as “alternative” in any meta-build or something. You think that minions aren’t illusions cause of not looking like the nec, well, the thieves summoned by thieves guild have their own style that can try to copy, but I never saw someone doing that for sure.
Venomshare is a funbuild. If you think that irs viable… well… them we don’t need to argue further.

I saw a rev with ventari in unranked 1 or 2 weeks ago. Does that mean it belongs into a viable build-diversity (alternative option) in your opinion? Maybe in hotjoin…

It goes to the same category like fresh-air ele.

My thoughts may be different to yours, but imo build diversity consists of more or less viable builds you can play without having a huge disadvantage just because its not that one metabuild. You can go and try fresh-air ele, but will never have the impact a bunker-ele has. Ergo no build diversity in case of ele.

Thieves have one viable build right now and that is D/P. You can use blind powder or bandits defence, but that doesn’t changes the idea of that build.
I like staff but its not really an alternative in competitive play. At least in EU (and staff is better than S/D or any other weapon right now).

Yeah, i played some times against the reborn unicorn-death-lotus-blossom D/D condi-build as rev and thief without much condiremove. Mostly one good interrupt and that thief was gone. Its an easy but boring to use build that any better player will almost never play. Annoying like S/D nowadays but far away from deadlyness the old acro S/D had.

Venomshare has always been viable in wvw, and works great in pvp, assuming you are coordinating with your team, And pretty sure it will work even better after the buffs.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_VenomShare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NlZHvSFleM

Inform yourself my friend

td:lr: Venom share is a viable alternative, and we can debate all day long about Guild initiave but i wont bet on it being an alternative or why not (since i am not a thief main) but it was mentioned because i have faced two Guild Thieves in ranked and one in unranked

If you watch my video you will see that one cc doesn’t work I was cc many times and juts rolled out of it or used bandits defense which is on extremely low CD. My problem with bandits defense specifically is that it is a thief carry skill. It is the shortest CD block that is also a stun breaker.

A 12 Second CD block/knockdown that is also a stun breaker is bound to be called out. Many classes have useful skills but not as efficient as this one. based on short CD, the math points out this skill is equivalent to two bulls charges and 2 warrior blocks. Without even including the 12 CD stun breaker it provides.

Zelulose.8695:

Yes I play broken builds to test if they really are broken. It is what I have fun doing. Then I turn around with a full understanding of what is broken and what isn’t. If anything this should enhance my credibility.

I prefer to test builds to see which ones are unfair that is why people often see me playing a variety of broken builds.

Is D/D condi lower skill than power D/P? Absolutely. Is it overpowered or unfair? Not even close. There’s a reason the meta build remains D/P. The other broken builds lately have been the ones that inhabit god tier on metabattle, spawn numerous nerf threads, heavily influence team comps (five D/D eles back in the day, mesmers in every match S1, necro stacking S2) and are incredibly hard to play against. D/D condi just looks annoying since they spin all over the place. It’s not even in the same league as those other builds.

As a thief main, I do agree that this condi build is pretty kitten cheesy.

Part of me is happy to see a viable condi thief build finally in GW2, but I’d rather see it nerfed out of usefulness than to have it continue in the current state.

Death Blosssom really needs to have a higher ini cost and then to be offset with either cleave damage or a better evade frame to make it worth using, but not worth spamming.

Also, venoms still overall need a good bit of balancing to address the following issues:

• No stun breaks on venoms
• Venom damage is still balanced around 5 target venomous aura. Reduce the number of targets for this trait and up the damage.
• Venoms need to be able to cleave to some degree (except for Basilisk and Skelk, of course)
• Skelk Venom’s cast time needs to be reduced.

I absolutely agree with you that venoms could use some changes and actually would like to see the changes you suggested.

Wait till it become cancer before you ask for nerfs.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Zodryn.4216:

Fivedawgs, yes I get your point. It’s a technicality about the wording you used. But whether you say “shield” or “block,” “illusion” or “ally,” that doesn’t change the fact that taking Bandit’s Defense does not make your build a “block build.” It’s a viable skill that you can fit into a build for extra defense, but it is never the crux of a build. For example, I can take Bandit’s Defense in a perma evade condi build, or a power D/P build. Those builds are not “block builds” then just because I use that one skill.

Again, if I run venomshare, I can take Thieves Guild to share the venoms with my summoned allies. That doesn’t make it an “illusion” or “minion” build or whatever you want to call it. It’s still venomshare. Not that anyone runs Thieves Guild anyway, because it sucks.

You admit to never having touched a thief and yet you’re trying to school thief mains since launch on what our viable builds are.

Going back to your list
1) venomshare is a viable build (in PvE)
2) there is no viable block build, if you want one, run engi or guard
3) there is no viable summon allies build, if you want one, run necro
4) “perma” evade is a viable build using either D/D condi or power staff
5) you ignored the meta power D/P build

Venomshare and Illusion or guild thief elite are supposed to be two different builds.. Anwyays to go through your list:

1-) Venom share has always been meta in wvw, and works with a coordinated team in pvp. I have won ranked game thanks to a venom share thief.

2-) Almost all thief, run the Shield utility when up against warrior, Like you said, there might not be a shield build, but i am referring to that shield, like switching one utility for another. Trust me, it helps a lot…

3-) I wouldn’t be surprised if it either suck or high skill cap, but i have seen it twice in ranked and once in unranked.

And note, i have never said, they were hyper strong… but id be willing to bet that a high skill player could make number 3 work. And of course, the others choice (engi or whatever) are better, these are just alternatives…

Coronit.9432:

Fivedawgs.4267:

dominik.9721:

Salamander.2504:

Fivedawgs, you asked a forum poster above if he could explain why he disagreed with you. I then helpfully responded why he probably disagreed with you. That’s all.

Ye thank you, appreciated. His post was so wrong and laughable at the same time, I just couldn’t answer anything to him at this time.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Are you kitten ing stupid or what?? Do the minions look like the necro?? Are you missing brain cells or what??

Hard words for somebody who is talking about ‘illusion thiefs’ , ’ shield thiefs’ and who considers venom share thief viable.

So, my argument about build diversity is still valid.

Ye it is. The build diversity for thief is nearly the best in game with the well known illusion thief, perma evade thief, shield thief and venom share thief.
I think you forgot the trap thief and the perma stealth thief, tho.

Make thief great again, vote Fivedawgs

Lol, you are having a field day over technalities, which is sad. Yet you can’t a dress the issue at hand. In a coordinated team, Venom share is viable, shield utility thief work great against warrior, i have seen illusion or guild initiative thief twice in ranked and once in unrank… so is there anything besides technalities that you disagree with?

Needless to say, I have never said that thieves were the most diverse class, but that had a few build they could rely on… but jump around the topic

“RELY ON” … Thieves Guild … An elite that never was even nearly meta, let alone shown as “alternative” in any meta-build or something. You think that minions aren’t illusions cause of not looking like the nec, well, the thieves summoned by thieves guild have their own style that can try to copy, but I never saw someone doing that for sure.
Venomshare is a funbuild. If you think that irs viable… well… them we don’t need to argue further.

I saw a rev with ventari in unranked 1 or 2 weeks ago. Does that mean it belongs into a viable build-diversity (alternative option) in your opinion? Maybe in hotjoin…

It goes to the same category like fresh-air ele.

My thoughts may be different to yours, but imo build diversity consists of more or less viable builds you can play without having a huge disadvantage just because its not that one metabuild. You can go and try fresh-air ele, but will never have the impact a bunker-ele has. Ergo no build diversity in case of ele.

Thieves have one viable build right now and that is D/P. You can use blind powder or bandits defence, but that doesn’t changes the idea of that build.
I like staff but its not really an alternative in competitive play. At least in EU (and staff is better than S/D or any other weapon right now).

Yeah, i played some times against the reborn unicorn-death-lotus-blossom D/D condi-build as rev and thief without much condiremove. Mostly one good interrupt and that thief was gone. Its an easy but boring to use build that any better player will almost never play. Annoying like S/D nowadays but far away from deadlyness the old acro S/D had.

Venomshare has always been viable in wvw, and works great in pvp, assuming you are coordinating with your team, And pretty sure it will work even better after the buffs.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_VenomShare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NlZHvSFleM

Inform yourself my friend

td:lr: Venom share is a viable alternative, and we can debate all day long about Guild initiave but i wont bet on it being an alternative or why not (since i am not a thief main) but it was mentioned because i have faced two Guild Thieves in ranked and one in unranked

Can’t take you seriously. I pity anyone who does.

MadVisions.4529:

Zelulose.8695:

The thief in the video is condition. The same can be done with the staff. Please Nerf it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2GJp1GFfrQ

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

skillCLICKER player @ it’s best ^^

Not sure which one of the thieves is the worst one. The one who dies to clicker, or the one who is clicking?

Great troll tread OP

Dahkeus.8243:

As a thief main, I do agree that this condi build is pretty kitten cheesy.

Part of me is happy to see a viable condi thief build finally in GW2, but I’d rather see it nerfed out of usefulness than to have it continue in the current state.

Death Blosssom really needs to have a higher ini cost and then to be offset with either cleave damage or a better evade frame to make it worth using, but not worth spamming.

Also, venoms still overall need a good bit of balancing to address the following issues:

• No stun breaks on venoms
• Venom damage is still balanced around 5 target venomous aura. Reduce the number of targets for this trait and up the damage.
• Venoms need to be able to cleave to some degree (except for Basilisk and Skelk, of course)
• Skelk Venom’s cast time needs to be reduced.

I don’t think DB needs a nerf. It isn’t spammed because it’s an amazing super powerful skill. It’s just the only option. I say rework Dancing Dagger and give it weakness and torment to encourage using other skills. The Dagger Training trait could also add some poison stacks to Backstab, which could encourage CnD use. Instead of evade spam, you can mix it up with stealth, weakness, and evade while dealing a better variety of conditions.

Lettuce.2945:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Zodryn.4216:

Fivedawgs, yes I get your point. It’s a technicality about the wording you used. But whether you say “shield” or “block,” “illusion” or “ally,” that doesn’t change the fact that taking Bandit’s Defense does not make your build a “block build.” It’s a viable skill that you can fit into a build for extra defense, but it is never the crux of a build. For example, I can take Bandit’s Defense in a perma evade condi build, or a power D/P build. Those builds are not “block builds” then just because I use that one skill.

Again, if I run venomshare, I can take Thieves Guild to share the venoms with my summoned allies. That doesn’t make it an “illusion” or “minion” build or whatever you want to call it. It’s still venomshare. Not that anyone runs Thieves Guild anyway, because it sucks.

You admit to never having touched a thief and yet you’re trying to school thief mains since launch on what our viable builds are.

Going back to your list
1) venomshare is a viable build (in PvE)
2) there is no viable block build, if you want one, run engi or guard
3) there is no viable summon allies build, if you want one, run necro
4) “perma” evade is a viable build using either D/D condi or power staff
5) you ignored the meta power D/P build

Venomshare and Illusion or guild thief elite are supposed to be two different builds.. Anwyays to go through your list:

1-) Venom share has always been meta in wvw, and works with a coordinated team in pvp. I have won ranked game thanks to a venom share thief.

2-) Almost all thief, run the Shield utility when up against warrior, Like you said, there might not be a shield build, but i am referring to that shield, like switching one utility for another. Trust me, it helps a lot…

3-) I wouldn’t be surprised if it either suck or high skill cap, but i have seen it twice in ranked and once in unranked.

And note, i have never said, they were hyper strong… but id be willing to bet that a high skill player could make number 3 work. And of course, the others choice (engi or whatever) are better, these are just alternatives…

Coronit.9432:

Fivedawgs.4267:

dominik.9721:

Salamander.2504:

Fivedawgs, you asked a forum poster above if he could explain why he disagreed with you. I then helpfully responded why he probably disagreed with you. That’s all.

Ye thank you, appreciated. His post was so wrong and laughable at the same time, I just couldn’t answer anything to him at this time.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Are you kitten ing stupid or what?? Do the minions look like the necro?? Are you missing brain cells or what??

Hard words for somebody who is talking about ‘illusion thiefs’ , ’ shield thiefs’ and who considers venom share thief viable.

So, my argument about build diversity is still valid.

Ye it is. The build diversity for thief is nearly the best in game with the well known illusion thief, perma evade thief, shield thief and venom share thief.
I think you forgot the trap thief and the perma stealth thief, tho.

Make thief great again, vote Fivedawgs

Lol, you are having a field day over technalities, which is sad. Yet you can’t a dress the issue at hand. In a coordinated team, Venom share is viable, shield utility thief work great against warrior, i have seen illusion or guild initiative thief twice in ranked and once in unrank… so is there anything besides technalities that you disagree with?

Needless to say, I have never said that thieves were the most diverse class, but that had a few build they could rely on… but jump around the topic

“RELY ON” … Thieves Guild … An elite that never was even nearly meta, let alone shown as “alternative” in any meta-build or something. You think that minions aren’t illusions cause of not looking like the nec, well, the thieves summoned by thieves guild have their own style that can try to copy, but I never saw someone doing that for sure.
Venomshare is a funbuild. If you think that irs viable… well… them we don’t need to argue further.

I saw a rev with ventari in unranked 1 or 2 weeks ago. Does that mean it belongs into a viable build-diversity (alternative option) in your opinion? Maybe in hotjoin…

It goes to the same category like fresh-air ele.

My thoughts may be different to yours, but imo build diversity consists of more or less viable builds you can play without having a huge disadvantage just because its not that one metabuild. You can go and try fresh-air ele, but will never have the impact a bunker-ele has. Ergo no build diversity in case of ele.

Thieves have one viable build right now and that is D/P. You can use blind powder or bandits defence, but that doesn’t changes the idea of that build.
I like staff but its not really an alternative in competitive play. At least in EU (and staff is better than S/D or any other weapon right now).

Yeah, i played some times against the reborn unicorn-death-lotus-blossom D/D condi-build as rev and thief without much condiremove. Mostly one good interrupt and that thief was gone. Its an easy but boring to use build that any better player will almost never play. Annoying like S/D nowadays but far away from deadlyness the old acro S/D had.

Venomshare has always been viable in wvw, and works great in pvp, assuming you are coordinating with your team, And pretty sure it will work even better after the buffs.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_VenomShare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NlZHvSFleM

Inform yourself my friend

td:lr: Venom share is a viable alternative, and we can debate all day long about Guild initiave but i wont bet on it being an alternative or why not (since i am not a thief main) but it was mentioned because i have faced two Guild Thieves in ranked and one in unranked

Can’t take you seriously. I pity anyone who does.

And what do you disagree with? Fyi, viable:

vi·a·ble
?v??b(?)l/
adjective
adjective: viable

capable of working successfully; feasible.
“the proposed investment was economically viable”
synonyms: feasible, workable, practicable, practical, usable, possible, realistic, achievable, attainable, realizable; informaldoable
“it doesn’t sound like a viable solution”
antonyms: impracticable
Botany
(of a seed or spore) able to germinate.
Biology
(of a plant, animal, or cell) capable of surviving or living successfully, especially under particular environmental conditions.
Medicine
(of a fetus or unborn child) able to live after birth.

So without a shadow of a doubt, can you say that venom share cant work successfully? or that’s it’ not feasible?

@Fivedawgs, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who know quite a bit more about thief (and PvP, apparently) then you do, and they are all telling you that the “builds” you are mentioning don’t actually exist, and that, yes, venomshare isn’t viable in a competitive setting, despite your one data point of a guy who ran it in unranked and won a match.

You’ve responded this entire time with insults (e.g., questioning how many brain cells we have), and have now ultimately responded by quoting the dictionary. Exactly who, besides you, is arguing technicalities?

Salamander.2504:

@Fivedawgs, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who know quite a bit more about thief (and PvP, apparently) then you do, and they are all telling you that the “builds” you are mentioning don’t actually exist, and that, yes, venomshare isn’t viable in a competitive setting, despite your one data point of a guy who ran it in unranked and won a match.

You’ve responded this entire time with insults (e.g., questioning how many brain cells we have), and have now ultimately responded by quoting the dictionary. Exactly who, besides you, is arguing technicalities?

He can’t even tell the difference between cleric/menders hp. Don’t bother.

Venomshare thief is viable.

It’s as viable as a weaponless druid!

Guys be nice on the forums please.

Different players have different opinions that help us narrow down to the truth. As long as they have some evidence to back their claim it is worth listening to.

Salamander.2504:

@Fivedawgs, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who know quite a bit more about thief (and PvP, apparently) then you do, and they are all telling you that the “builds” you are mentioning don’t actually exist, and that, yes, venomshare isn’t viable in a competitive setting, despite your one data point of a guy who ran it in unranked and won a match.

You’ve responded this entire time with insults (e.g., questioning how many brain cells we have), and have now ultimately responded by quoting the dictionary. Exactly who, besides you, is arguing technicalities?

Not true, not true at all, i have been pretty open.. I have even gave up on the Guild elite being viable, but venom share works well with a coordinated team, and the link was cited to disprove the idea of venom share being a dungeon or pve thing. Look I want to learn, if someone can point out to me, how venom share suck in coordinated team, then ill drop it from my list as well.

I have seen venom share work well in a team with a plan. It just isn’t a dueling spec.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Salamander.2504:

@Fivedawgs, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who know quite a bit more about thief (and PvP, apparently) then you do, and they are all telling you that the “builds” you are mentioning don’t actually exist, and that, yes, venomshare isn’t viable in a competitive setting, despite your one data point of a guy who ran it in unranked and won a match.

You’ve responded this entire time with insults (e.g., questioning how many brain cells we have), and have now ultimately responded by quoting the dictionary. Exactly who, besides you, is arguing technicalities?

Not true, not true at all, i have been pretty open.. I have even gave up on the Guild elite being viable, but venom share works well with a coordinated team, and the link was cited to disprove the idea of venom share being a dungeon or pve thing. Look I want to learn, if someone can point out to me, how venom share suck in coordinated team, then ill drop it from my list as well.

1) You need to take shadow arts, so you lose out on an entire traitline. This is huge and can’t be understated.

2) Lack of stunbreakers and real utility skills=dead thief. Taking even 2 venoms in your 6-9 utility spots means you lose out on some combination of shadowstep (stunbreak, movement, condi clear), signet of agility (condi clear, perma-evade), or bandit’s defense (low CD block, stunbreak). Loading up your utility bar with skills that bring no utility is asking for trouble.

3) To make venoms pack a punch, you have to go condi, and condi thief just isn’t good. Plus, if you’re venom-share you’re a very lackluster condi thief because you’re losing out on Deadly Arts or Trickery.

4) No burst. Why would anyone want a thief on their team that can’t +1 the fight and just end it? If a venom-share thief shows up to my 1v1 he’s going to dance around the point like a clown and add a bit of dps over time, or alternatively spend his time casting his venoms making sure that I’m in the 360 radius and letting me do all the damage. In the entire time he spent casting 2-3 venom’s, a regular thief +1 would have downed the enemy and potentially already stomped them with a well-timed Impact Strike. Granted, showing up to a fight and casting venom’s is just dumb, but if the venoms are only on the thief, then he’s only adding a few paltry stacks of immob, torment, or poison after the initial basi stun. The only time venoms are actually useful is in the initial mid-fight.

5) Most venomshare thieves will go D/D, and losing the offhand pistol utility is a big loss.

6) The concept that “venomshare works in a coordinated team” is silly because there are a number of sub-par specs that can work as long as you’re getting carried. Why limit yourself to a kitten build that requires a highly coordinated team to win, when you can use a great build that allows you to carry your team?

Salamander.2504:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Salamander.2504:

@Fivedawgs, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who know quite a bit more about thief (and PvP, apparently) then you do, and they are all telling you that the “builds” you are mentioning don’t actually exist, and that, yes, venomshare isn’t viable in a competitive setting, despite your one data point of a guy who ran it in unranked and won a match.

You’ve responded this entire time with insults (e.g., questioning how many brain cells we have), and have now ultimately responded by quoting the dictionary. Exactly who, besides you, is arguing technicalities?

Not true, not true at all, i have been pretty open.. I have even gave up on the Guild elite being viable, but venom share works well with a coordinated team, and the link was cited to disprove the idea of venom share being a dungeon or pve thing. Look I want to learn, if someone can point out to me, how venom share suck in coordinated team, then ill drop it from my list as well.

1) You need to take shadow arts, so you lose out on an entire traitline. This is huge and can’t be understated.

2) Lack of stunbreakers and real utility skills=dead thief. Taking even 2 venoms in your 6-9 utility spots means you lose out on some combination of shadowstep (stunbreak, movement, condi clear), signet of agility (condi clear, perma-evade), or bandit’s defense (low CD block, stunbreak). Loading up your utility bar with skills that bring no utility is asking for trouble.

3) To make venoms pack a punch, you have to go condi, and condi thief just isn’t good. Plus, if you’re venom-share you’re a very lackluster condi thief because you’re losing out on Deadly Arts or Trickery.

4) No burst. Why would anyone want a thief on their team that can’t +1 the fight and just end it? If a venom-share thief shows up to my 1v1 he’s going to dance around the point like a clown and add a bit of dps over time, or alternatively spend his time casting his venom’s making sure that I’m in the 360 radius and letting me do all the damage. In the entire time he spent casting 2-3 venom’s, a regular thief +1 would have downed the enemy and potentially already stomped them with a well-timed Impact Strike. Granted, showing up to a fight and casting venom’s is just dumb, but if the venoms are only the the thief, then he’s only adding a few paltry stacks of immob, torment, or poison after the initial basi stun. The only time venoms are actually useful is in the initial mid-fight.

5) Most venomshare thieves will go D/D, and losing the offhand pistol utility is a big loss.

6) The concept that “venomshare works in a coordinated team” is silly because there are a number of sub-par specs that can work as long as you’re getting carried. Why limit yourself to a kitten build that requires a highly coordinated team to win, when you can use a great build that allows you to carry your team?

Uhm, interesting … So, it’s pretty much like us losing Defense? I see… Now thats convincing someone… Ok venomshare thieves aren’t viable in pvp after all.

About number 3 though, i believe the OP is discussing whether or not condi thieves are OP, but thanks for the input.

Edit: The OP just said that they do work, which is what i believe.. So maybe venom share is a high risk , high reward build?

Zelulose.8695:

I have seen venom share work well in a team with a plan. It just isn’t a dueling spec.

Thats what i thought, i got carried by it twice, for it to work you have to rely on your team. Like every time i played with one, he always said venom share thief, and we worked around him.

So is it a high risk , high reward build then? or would you say, it’s viable (not competitive) ?

It really works best with mesmer.

fivedawgs the guy who gets carried by venom share thiefs and who lost against a weaponless druid.the guy who knows less than nerdkitten and jon snow combined -maybe this forum clown is Zeffiro88 on NA account, dont know

dominik.9721:

fivedawgs the guy who gets carried by venom share thiefs and who lost against a weaponless druid.the guy who knows less than nerdkitten and jon snow combined -maybe this forum clown is Zeffiro88 on NA account, dont know

lmao, look funny how you have to resort to petty remark to express yourself … What are your points? What is your argument? You have said nothing thus far but slander my great name… Is that how you hold a conversation? Jumping around the subject whilst making petty remark???

Bolded statement, if your going to jump on the druid bangwagon, at least do it right; i won that game by 430 point… And never lost to the druids..

I don’t need to say something to your
“shield-thief” and “illusion-thief” – that’s basically the only funny thing – your name even made it to twitch chat, that’s something I guess

Venomshare is interesting but has major problems in PvP. Salamander pointed out a good deal of them, but here’s my additional input. Sharing venoms makes your friends feel powerful and supported. They get free CC and conditions, so what’s the problem? Here are some key points:

1) If an opponent blocks or dodges, your venoms are still used up while doing nothing. You may time your strikes well to avoid this, but friends you shared with almost never do.

2) Best case, five people with venoms focusing one target are not too much more effective than a single condi necromancer, only the necro could hit up to five people with AoEs. Worst case, a single person with venoms is practically ignorable. Even in the best case, venoms are the last thing someone will worry about in a 5v1. They’d die to direct damage before the second condi tick.

3) Other builds allow you to duel or even group fight significantly better. You can always make a solid contribution, rather than sometimes, as long as your ally was close enough to get the venoms and the enemy doesn’t dodge them etc.

It isn’t high risk high reward. It’s too many prerequisites for mediocre reward.

Zodryn.4216:

Venomshare is interesting but has major problems in PvP. Salamander pointed out a good deal of them, but here’s my additional input. Sharing venoms makes your friends feel powerful and supported. They get free CC and conditions, so what’s the problem? Here are some key points:

1) If an opponent blocks or dodges, your venoms are still used up while doing nothing. You may time your strikes well to avoid this, but friends you shared with almost never do.

2) Best case, five people with venoms focusing one target are not too much more effective than a single condi necromancer, only the necro could hit up to five people with AoEs. Worst case, a single person with venoms is practically ignorable. Even in the best case, venoms are the last thing someone will worry about in a 5v1. They’d die to direct damage before the second condi tick.

3) Other builds allow you to duel or even group fight significantly better. You can always make a solid contribution, rather than sometimes, as long as your ally was close enough to get the venoms and the enemy doesn’t dodge them etc.

It isn’t high risk high reward. It’s too many prerequisites for mediocre reward.

ok, i guess when it comes down to venom share it all comes down to preference. An experience venom share user can make it viable, however the build itself isnt, so venom share isnt viable, ok gotcha.

@Dominik, just you know,my ign is copyrighted… Any derogatory remarks to my name will be severely punished!!!

Another complain thread from the OP as usual.

Is this really a normal sight in the PvP forums? Everything based on 1v1/solo q perspective?

Fivedawgs.4267:

Zodryn.4216:

Venomshare is interesting but has major problems in PvP. Salamander pointed out a good deal of them, but here’s my additional input. Sharing venoms makes your friends feel powerful and supported. They get free CC and conditions, so what’s the problem? Here are some key points:

1) If an opponent blocks or dodges, your venoms are still used up while doing nothing. You may time your strikes well to avoid this, but friends you shared with almost never do.

2) Best case, five people with venoms focusing one target are not too much more effective than a single condi necromancer, only the necro could hit up to five people with AoEs. Worst case, a single person with venoms is practically ignorable. Even in the best case, venoms are the last thing someone will worry about in a 5v1. They’d die to direct damage before the second condi tick.

3) Other builds allow you to duel or even group fight significantly better. You can always make a solid contribution, rather than sometimes, as long as your ally was close enough to get the venoms and the enemy doesn’t dodge them etc.

It isn’t high risk high reward. It’s too many prerequisites for mediocre reward.

ok, i guess when it comes down to venom share it all comes down to preference. An experience venom share user can make it viable, however the build itself isnt, so venom share isnt viable, ok gotcha.

Yeah, that’s pretty much it. I can take a menders axe/axe warrior or a zerker blood magic reaper into unranked and as long as my team is good, I can still win, but it doesn’t make those builds viable. Strictly speaking, taking any bad build into a game is “high risk”.

StickerHappy.8052:

Another complain thread from the OP as usual.

Is this really a normal sight in the PvP forums? Everything based on 1v1/solo q perspective?

Balancing around 1v1 is a lot more important than you think. Also, having a class which is completely broken in 1v1, but completely useless in team-fights is not balanced. No specific build should be completely unbeatable in a 1v1, assuming = skill level of the participants (there should be at lost some rock-paper-scissors). OP simply perceives this thief to be that unbeatable class in 1v1 which it probably isn’t.

I don’t believe in rock paper scissors builds I believe in rock paper scissors skills.

As the OP I wan’t to clarify that it isn’t 1 vs 1 where this build is op. Condition Chronomancer wastes it and so does berserker warrior. It is however decent in 1 vs 1. It is broken in hot join or tpvp. Sure it may not be super broken in legendary. But it can farm you pretty close compared to other builds. This again is because it lasts significantly longer in a team fight than other builds do. Things happen fast in tpvp and a perma evade thief of any sort just eats damage for the team like it doesn’t exist. It has the sustain of a bunker in 1 vs 5 and the damage out put of… well a glass cannon condition or damage thief depending of course on the Grandmaster dodge role used and the weapon choice (staff or d/d). This build also hard counters some classes.

Any leeching based build /condition transfer necro is punished hard. Furthermore, all non bunkers die rather quickly. Thief also gets punished as there are no backstab openings and CC is met with bandits defense. In a group fight this build simply roles in and roles out. It can provide aoe damage in team fight or just hold a point for a few minutes.

My take on it is that if bandits defense was nerfed this build would be interesting but not game changing. I would suggest 40 second CD or removal of the stun break as thief has plenty of stun break traits already.

That build is nothing new and it gets rekt by necros. Just watch where they land their DB and have a Putrid Mark waiting for them and they can eat all that condi up you just handed back to them.

In the off chance that necro tries to send conditions back the thief can remove them by dodging or using the heal skill. That isn’t easy to do for necro in 1 vs 1 and is much more difficult to land in team fights where players may obstruct the necro. The point is the thief wont die to conditions expecially not necro. The necro will die eventually as the thief will whittle him down with bound or lotus spamming. Putrid mark has a cast animation that is easy to dodge and the mark itself is easy to dodge.

That’s why you time the mark to be cast just as they are landing from spamming DB. The evade frames are done by then. After that just don’t attack and they can’t dodge them off.

You right better nerf thief’s evade rather than perma stealth, perma clones, 800HP/s regen warriors, revenant sword 2 &3 or staff 5 hammer 2, engi surviability in a 1VX still capable of killing, ranger’ saurian pets and so on (don’t take it personal guys – there is tons of things i could list offensively or defensively which are unhealthy for the game)..
This is exactly the kind request that made some sets unviable in this game.
While this build could have been kite endlessly with just shortbow 3 and a bit of swiftness.

If this game has became such a joke so far (ESL= only1.5K viewers for a 400K$ cash prise – don’t tell me it’s not a joke pls) it’s not only because of the Devs mediocrity, it’s also because of the players cranky requests…

Unfortunately, the few players who do have good /healthy ideas, and wish to play a smart game, are the ones Devs don’t listen…

They need to send in balances every two weeks to keep things in line so they move with the metas before they take over. And yes all of those builds are on my list of sustain to go.

Fivedawgs.4267:

dominik.9721:

Salamander.2504:

Fivedawgs, you asked a forum poster above if he could explain why he disagreed with you. I then helpfully responded why he probably disagreed with you. That’s all.

Ye thank you, appreciated. His post was so wrong and laughable at the same time, I just couldn’t answer anything to him at this time.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Are you kitten ing stupid or what?? Do the minions look like the necro?? Are you missing brain cells or what??

Hard words for somebody who is talking about ‘illusion thiefs’ , ’ shield thiefs’ and who considers venom share thief viable.

So, my argument about build diversity is still valid.

Ye it is. The build diversity for thief is nearly the best in game with the well known illusion thief, perma evade thief, shield thief and venom share thief.
I think you forgot the trap thief and the perma stealth thief, tho.

Make thief great again, vote Fivedawgs

Lol, you are having a field day over technalities, which is sad. Yet you can’t a dress the issue at hand. In a coordinated team, Venom share is viable, shield utility thief work great against warrior, i have seen illusion or guild initiative thief twice in ranked and once in unrank… so is there anything besides technalities that you disagree with?

Needless to say, I have never said that thieves were the most diverse class, but that had a few build they could rely on… but jump around the topic

Hammer ventari rev has been played on PL, I guess its a viable build on coordinated teams

The reason I made this thread is to show the balance team (which isn’t making many changes to fix broken sustainability) that balance is more pressing an issue than they may realize and will be the difference between the future of this game or the end of this game pvp wise.

May I also argue PVP is a large source of gem spending. Players in pvp are much less rich than players in pve. As a result, most of their flashy gear comes from gems. So really…

This thread is highlighting the idea that pvp is being hurt by the lack of balance changes. It is costing the attitude of the community, the communities size, and the amount of gems bought most directly. At least from a business perspective, appease the player base with meaningful balance to increase the games revenue. There are multiple reasons why balance needs to be addressed and at this point I’m just throwing more reason out there.

I played condi thief a lot last season to get to legend , especially when the other team had more than 1 reaper since condi thief absolutely destroys necro/reaper. It beats revenants too but took longer and could whittle down druids on point.

The next season it probably won’t be as useful since necros will be in less numbers but it looks like warriors will be more popular which is good because condi thief beats any really. Even with the new adrenal health trait.

Build is not that strong though, DH’s or decent Scrappers with retal can easily beat you on point. It’s just a different build to use other than d/p that hard counters some classes.

Snowywonders.1378:

I played condi thief a lot last season to get to legend , especially when the other team had more than 1 reaper since condi thief absolutely destroys necro/reaper. It beats revenants too but took longer and could whittle down druids on point.

The next season it probably won’t be as useful since necros will be in less numbers but it looks like warriors will be more popular which is good because condi thief beats any really. Even with the new adrenal health trait.

Build is not that strong though, DH’s or decent Scrappers with retal can easily beat you on point. It’s just a different build to use other than d/p that hard counters some classes.

This falls closely in line with how strong I see the build. Kind of an easy rank up build.

Zelulose.8695:

Snowywonders.1378:

Build is not that strong though, DH’s or decent Scrappers with retal can easily beat you on point.

This falls closely in line with how strong I see the build. Kind of an easy rank up build.

Zelulose.8695:

Please Nerf it.

Umm…what?

Zodryn.4216:

Zelulose.8695:

Snowywonders.1378:

Build is not that strong though, DH’s or decent Scrappers with retal can easily beat you on point.

This falls closely in line with how strong I see the build. Kind of an easy rank up build.

Zelulose.8695:

Please Nerf it.

Umm…what?

Umm that is why I said closely inline. I was vague for a reason. You really must like your thief to directly attack me out of context like this. A change to perma evade or bandits defense shouldn’t bother thief too much anyway assuming they use mechanical skill.

Zelulose.8695:

Zodryn.4216:

Zelulose.8695:

Snowywonders.1378:

Build is not that strong though, DH’s or decent Scrappers with retal can easily beat you on point.

This falls closely in line with how strong I see the build. Kind of an easy rank up build.

Zelulose.8695:

Please Nerf it.

Umm…what?

Umm that is why I said closely inline. I was vague for a reason. You really must like your thief to directly attack me out of context like this. A change to perma evade or bandits defense shouldn’t bother thief too much anyway assuming they use mechanical skill.

You pretty much said it is only good for ranking up easily, implying it is only good at lower level play. Then you want it nerfed. That is why you make 0 sense. You want something that is only viable vs bads nerfed because you happen to not like it.

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Zelulose.8695:

Zodryn.4216:

Zelulose.8695:

Snowywonders.1378:

Build is not that strong though, DH’s or decent Scrappers with retal can easily beat you on point.

This falls closely in line with how strong I see the build. Kind of an easy rank up build.

Zelulose.8695:

Please Nerf it.

Umm…what?

Umm that is why I said closely inline. I was vague for a reason. You really must like your thief to directly attack me out of context like this. A change to perma evade or bandits defense shouldn’t bother thief too much anyway assuming they use mechanical skill.

You pretty much said it is only good for ranking up easily, implying it is only good at lower level play. Then you want it nerfed. That is why you make 0 sense. You want something that is only viable vs bads nerfed because you happen to not like it.

No build should be a free rank up. Period. A player who falls in the bottom 10% of people playing a build like this to get to the 75% of players in rank when he doesn’t deserve it will be the result. Builds with a skill cap this low should stay in emerald if not amber. That is my point.

Zelulose.8695:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Zelulose.8695:

Zodryn.4216:

Zelulose.8695:

Snowywonders.1378:

Build is not that strong though, DH’s or decent Scrappers with retal can easily beat you on point.

This falls closely in line with how strong I see the build. Kind of an easy rank up build.

Zelulose.8695:

Please Nerf it.

Umm…what?

Umm that is why I said closely inline. I was vague for a reason. You really must like your thief to directly attack me out of context like this. A change to perma evade or bandits defense shouldn’t bother thief too much anyway assuming they use mechanical skill.

You pretty much said it is only good for ranking up easily, implying it is only good at lower level play. Then you want it nerfed. That is why you make 0 sense. You want something that is only viable vs bads nerfed because you happen to not like it.

No build should be a free rank up. Period. A player who falls in the bottom 10% of people playing a build like this to get to the 75% of players in rank when he doesn’t deserve it will be the result. Builds with a skill cap this low should stay in emerald if not amber. That is my point.

DHs, Scrappers, Condi Mesmers, Condi Necros (RIP mercenary amulet) would like a word with you then.

The funny thing is the thief in the most recent video I posted was running sinister amulet 11k hp and didn’t die once.

If anything my thief will have an easier time taking down targets.

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Zelulose.8695:

Zodryn.4216:

Zelulose.8695:

Snowywonders.1378:

Build is not that strong though, DH’s or decent Scrappers with retal can easily beat you on point.

This falls closely in line with how strong I see the build. Kind of an easy rank up build.

Zelulose.8695:

Please Nerf it.

Umm…what?

Umm that is why I said closely inline. I was vague for a reason. You really must like your thief to directly attack me out of context like this. A change to perma evade or bandits defense shouldn’t bother thief too much anyway assuming they use mechanical skill.

You pretty much said it is only good for ranking up easily, implying it is only good at lower level play. Then you want it nerfed. That is why you make 0 sense. You want something that is only viable vs bads nerfed because you happen to not like it.

Believe it or not, but builds don’t only need to be nerfed if they’re powerful at top levels of PvP. If there’s a build that steamrolls new/inexperienced players without requiring any effort, that’s also bad for the game. It’s the same reason turret engis needed to be nerfed. Even if it can be countered at high levels of play, you discourage players from even trying to PvP when they see other players getting rewarded for faceroll behavior.

This is along the lines of what I’m getting at. I hope next patch it is fixed. My dream is that they fix bandits defense as it is the chief source of thief near immortality for the good players saving them in every emergency.