Guild Wars 2

I have never played an SPvP (tournament) match as a mesmer and made it through it without dying at least once.

I have 19 matches under my belt on my thief alt and it hasn’t been killed once.

Let’s address the 900 pound gorilla first.

Pyroatheist.9031:

4k per strike on a bunker

Valkyrie’s amulet, rampager’s jewel. Swordsman hits for 2.5k-3.1k. Are we playing the same game? It’s 4:30 AM and you have me logging into Heart of the Mists to check my memory. Thanks. ;p

Edit: 1285 per strike against the Elementalist NPC. My terrible guess was totally influenced by your ‘4k’. :P

Edit: 2200 crits against the Necromancer after 8 vulnerability stacks. New high!

Edit: Pic.

Unfortunately, it turned out to be very difficult to actually capture the damage floaters of my phantasms with a screenshot. I’ve attached the (ugh) singular damage floater that I did manage to capture.

Regardless, in my testing with the build that I always run (zerker amulet, 6x runes of divinity, 10/30/0/25/5) I wakittenting for 4.2k reliably with the swordsman on the heavy target golem, and up to 5k on the light target golem. This is all with 0 stacks of vulnerability, as well as without any might or other boons.

The npcs are bad for testing because we have no way of knowing what ‘traits’ they have or what stat ‘amulets’ they are wearing. From the damage I did on them, they seemed to all have reasonably defensive stat sets, which skews the damage considerably when discussing a glass cannon.

I’d argue the NPCs are good for testing, because we have no way of knowing what ‘traits’ SPvP opponents have or what stat ‘amulets’ they are wearing (I’d bet on Soldier’s).

Damage was similar on the golems, for whatever that’s worth.

I can see 4k from a berserker build. Surviving an encounter with another glass cannon becomes exponentially more difficult, though. I prefer to outlast my opponents if at all possible.

Leads to some boring bunker vs. bunker battles though. First to get reinforcements wins!

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

I’d argue the NPCs are good for testing, because we have no way of knowing what ‘traits’ SPvP opponents have or what stat ‘amulets’ they are wearing (I’d bet on Soldier’s).

Damage was similar on the golems, for whatever that’s worth.

I can see 4k from a berserker build. Surviving an encounter with another glass cannon becomes exponentially more difficult, though. I prefer to outlast my opponents if at all possible.

Leads to some boring bunker vs. bunker battles though. First to get reinforcements wins!

If you think that surviving against another glass cannon is difficult in a glassy phantasm build, you’re probably doing it wrong.

Again, my build here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/page/4#post2147039

Try it out. There is no counter to it. I would love to find a counter, because then I could beat it when I’m not the one running it, but in the months it’s been since I developed the build and popularized that type, there has been no effective counter ever found. Fighting against another glass cannon is the easiest thing ever. You just spawn your phantasms, and run in circles. If they try to burst you, you use blocks and blurred frenzy, and then they are dead because phantasms.

That build is the definition of overpowered in a 1v1. There is no possible way that it is balanced. I even titled the stupid thing as ‘overpowered’ because that’s simply what it is. It’s not a tenable situation to have builds like that in this game, but unfortunately since phantasm builds tend to blow chunks in larger fights/wvw, they have the strange situation of being both extremely overpowered and extremely useless at the same time.

Changes absolutely need to be made to bring phantasm builds down to a reasonable level in 1v1s, while simultaneously making them viable in WvW and larger fights. I don’t know what changes need to be made, but the fact that they DO need to be made is indisputable.

This build definitely needs toning down.

As a warrior in Spvp seeing a mesmer is a death sentence. There is absolutely nothing I can do but run away with my tail between my legs when caught in a 1v1.

This build lets mesmers just dance around me the entire time while their pets do all the work for them. It’s not fun and just makes being a warrior more depressing than it already is. I mean, mesmers always say that it’s easy to kill them when caught in a 100b.. But that’s just it, isn’t it? How on earth do you expect anyone to catch a mesmer with all the mind numbing escapes they have? Stealth? Blink? Teleport? SPAWNING MORE ILLUSIONS? By the time i get a hit on a mesmer I’m already at 40% hp.

Yes, I’ve tried tanky-er builds, I’ve tried everything.

Seriously.

This build is stupid and ruins Spvp. It’s worse than 100b cheese, all you had to do to avoid it was dodge roll Bull’s charge and warrior can’t do anything for 40 seconds.

AoE actually does nothing against a good Phantasm-Mesmer, because:

- the best Phantasm is the Duelist, which has a huge range.
- Good Mesmers will spawn their Illusions in a way so they don’t ball up, which is very easy to do with 2 Duelists and 1 Berzerker.
- The Illusions have quite a bit of Health if you run the Signet, together with the fact that they have Retal, it’s a waste of time to try and attack them.

I’ve been saying for quite a while that Phantasm-Mesmer aren’t only viable in tpvp, but that they are currently the most diverse and strongest build, because they can literally do everything besides heavy tanking (they can have decent sustain though, but not enough for a tank) and very high spike-dmg (some builds have decent spike-dmg and spike-support, but not as high kittenter-Mesmers, Thiefs and Arcane-Eles).

To fix them, simply get rid of retal on the Phantasms and maybe reduce the amount of health gained by the Signet (but make the trait for moer health better. Sth. like 150% more health with the signet, and 50% with the trait, so both are useful, but you haver to sacrifice more utility to get the incredibly tanky Phantasms.)

Pyroatheist.9031:

Fighting against another glass cannon is the easiest thing ever. You just spawn your phantasms, and run in circles.

You must be getting matched up with some really terrible players.

Pyroatheist.9031:

If they try to burst you, you use blocks and blurred frenzy, and then they are dead because phantasms.

2 blocks, 2 dodges. Not enough for a 1v2 and risky in a 1v1. Plausible, but risky.

Pyroatheist.9031:

That build is the definition of overpowered in a 1v1.

Would love to test your build versus mine since there are only a few differences, but those differences are fundamental. One of the things I often complain about would be in effect, though: toughness does not prevent damage as much as power/precision improves it.

Pyroatheist.9031:

making them viable in WvW and larger fights

Definitely its weakness. Phantasms feel silly in Wv3 and some PvE situations. They die almost instantly in large battles (sometimes it seems like they spawn with 1 health) and even in 1v1 fights, people just run.

Nothing is perfect. Well, thief… nevermind.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

Definitely its weakness. Phantasms feel silly in Wv3 and some PvE situations. They die almost instantly in large battles (sometimes it seems like they spawn with 1 health)

It could have to do with this bug mentioned on the Signet of Illusion page on the wiki :

The health boost occurs 1-10 seconds for after the illusion is created.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Unfortunately, it turned out to be very difficult to actually capture the damage floaters of my phantasms with a screenshot. I’ve attached the (ugh) singular damage floater that I did manage to capture.

Regardless, in my testing with the build that I always run (zerker amulet, 6x runes of divinity, 10/30/0/25/5) I wakittenting for 4.2k reliably with the swordsman on the heavy target golem, and up to 5k on the light target golem. This is all with 0 stacks of vulnerability, as well as without any might or other boons.

The npcs are bad for testing because we have no way of knowing what ‘traits’ they have or what stat ‘amulets’ they are wearing. From the damage I did on them, they seemed to all have reasonably defensive stat sets, which skews the damage considerably when discussing a glass cannon.

Still not 6.5k hits you advertised, in fact it’s more than 1.5k off which is A LOT.

This is exactly my point. People post things that are demonstrably not true and builds that dump all utility and defense to just achieve high numbers. The only way you can get that strong damage is if you go 10/30/0/25/5 and full zerker and crit % runes. It’s a gimmick build. And even then you have a screen shot of 4.6k, a far cry from 6.5k. That’s basically lying, or grossly misrepresenting the actual situation.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Again, my build here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/page/4#post2147039

That’s a pve build and a complete glass cannon. A glass cannon with no staff. GG. Try roaming with this in wvw and get owned by a thief before you can do anything at all. Your claim that this build owns other glass cannons is not believable at all. You can’t touch a glass cannon evade thief.

Red Raven.7824:

This build is stupid and ruins Spvp. It’s worse than 100b cheese, all you had to do to avoid it was dodge roll Bull’s charge and warrior can’t do anything for 40 seconds.

Yes, dodging a bull’s charge puts the warrior into a stasis for 40 seconds. Another stupid blanked statement.

ManCaptain.3154:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Unfortunately, it turned out to be very difficult to actually capture the damage floaters of my phantasms with a screenshot. I’ve attached the (ugh) singular damage floater that I did manage to capture.

Regardless, in my testing with the build that I always run (zerker amulet, 6x runes of divinity, 10/30/0/25/5) I wakittenting for 4.2k reliably with the swordsman on the heavy target golem, and up to 5k on the light target golem. This is all with 0 stacks of vulnerability, as well as without any might or other boons.

The npcs are bad for testing because we have no way of knowing what ‘traits’ they have or what stat ‘amulets’ they are wearing. From the damage I did on them, they seemed to all have reasonably defensive stat sets, which skews the damage considerably when discussing a glass cannon.

Still not 6.5k hits you advertised, in fact it’s more than 1.5k off which is A LOT.

This is exactly my point. People post things that are demonstrably not true and builds that dump all utility and defense to just achieve high numbers. The only way you can get that strong damage is if you go 10/30/0/25/5 and full zerker and crit % runes. It’s a gimmick build. And even then you have a screen shot of 4.6k, a far cry from 6.5k. That’s basically lying, or grossly misrepresenting the actual situation.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Again, my build here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/page/4#post2147039

That’s a pve build and a complete glass cannon. A glass cannon with no staff. GG. Try roaming with this in wvw and get owned by a thief before you can do anything at all. Your claim that this build owns other glass cannons is not believable at all. You can’t touch a glass cannon evade thief.

That is most definitely not a pve build, and calling it as such is simply demonstrative of your ignorance with how phantasm builds work. The staff is not necessary due to my 2 blocks + blurred frenzy which I can cycle more or less continuously.

If you really think that my build can’t demolish a glass cannon evade thief, by all means find one to beat me, because it hasn’t happened yet. As a matter of fact, let me extend that invitation to any of the misguided in this thread (especially that warrior) that think they can beat a phantasm build in a 1v1. I’m quite happy to put my money where my mouth is, unlike the majority of our PvF friends here.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

I’d argue the NPCs are good for testing, because we have no way of knowing what ‘traits’ SPvP opponents have or what stat ‘amulets’ they are wearing (I’d bet on Soldier’s).

Damage was similar on the golems, for whatever that’s worth.

I can see 4k from a berserker build. Surviving an encounter with another glass cannon becomes exponentially more difficult, though. I prefer to outlast my opponents if at all possible.

Leads to some boring bunker vs. bunker battles though. First to get reinforcements wins!

Combat NPC in Mist has bugged stats = wrong on test DMG

ManCaptain, I suggest you to watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nADHVzc9y8g

It is a shatter mesmer going full glass cannon just straight up owning people and he’s NOT using staff. If you think he’s downed easily, you’re going to have a bad time. He gets caught off guard by a few thieves in the video and just handles them correctly.

Granted he isn’t a phantasm mesmer but you said a glass mesmer without staff is cake. Well, say that after this video.

ManCaptain.3154:

I’m pretty sure those numbers are too high if you consider the average. Also those 2 phantasms are never on the same build.

Actually a proper phantasm Mesmer usually has those two… Why? IZerker is bugged out. So anyone really using it is hampering their build and their team more so than already being a phant Mesmer. Staff isn’t used in a phantasm build because the effing projectile hardly lands in pvp where everyone is moving and that alone dodges that (its like the guardian scepter….) So iSwordsman and iDuelist are in reality the only truly reliable phantasms we have.

Jackums.3496:

The Phantasm Mesmer pays for their 1v1 efficiency by sucking everywhere else.

You’ve got to be joking.

They can run FULL glass and still 1v1 better than a ranger and you’re telling me that’s inefficient?

I’m sorry, I call bull-kitten on this one.

Phantasm Mesmer is the best class you could possibly want in a team fight. Why?
Illusions can confuse the enemy just by cluttering their screen. Their damage will excell to its maximum because the mesmer can free cast while his teammates/illusions get all the attention. Mass Stealth? Time Warp? Please tell me you’re joking.

I’m 100% certain that all the people complaining about the lolPhantasm build are either:

A. Have been playing the game for a long time, are bad at it and there is no hope for them to get better.

or

B. New at the game and will get better but they are currently bad.

Red Raven.7824:

Jackums.3496:

The Phantasm Mesmer pays for their 1v1 efficiency by sucking everywhere else.

You’ve got to be joking.

They can run FULL glass and still 1v1 better than a ranger and you’re telling me that’s inefficient?

I’m sorry, I call bull-kitten on this one.

Phantasm Mesmer is the best class you could possibly want in a team fight. Why?
Illusions can confuse the enemy just by cluttering their screen. Their damage will excell to its maximum because the mesmer can free cast while his teammates/illusions get all the attention. Mass Stealth? Time Warp? Please tell me you’re joking.

I think you might have misread his post. He said efficiency, not inefficiency.

@Jasher: Being an extremely experienced mesmer, and having spent significant amounts of time playing the phantasm build that I linked to several posts above, and having never encountered a build and class that can effectively beat it, I guarantee you that while those 2 sets of people you listed might be here in this thread, the concerns are valid.

I think everyone can agree this build is pretty much OP when it comes to 1v1. Again the complaint is there is no skill level involved to play this build because the AI does the fighting. Minion master necro’s are a good example of a strong 1v1 build that absolutely sucks in tournaments. The build is relatively strong when played well (again the AI is doing a lot of the work) however there are some very significant counters to it such as Moa, direct sustained damage, AOE’ing the minions etc (pretty sure minions have about as much life as a traited phantasm). The phantasm mesmer has NO direct counter and outshines even the strongest 1v1 classes.

I dispute all of you that say this build has no place in tournaments. It has no place in a 4v4 team fight sure, but even then the range on the iDuelist is what, 900? It’s nothing to place 3 iDuelists on your side of a point and sit there twiddling your thumbs while every 5 seconds they pump out 9k in damage combined. Map positioning is the ONLY thing this class needs to worry about. Drop them on a ledge, drop them outside a window, scatter them around a point and it’s stupid sustain damage.

I would propose that the mesmer loses a certain amount of health each time a phantasm is killed. This would make focusing the phantasms a viable strategy and having a lot out at once (i.e. 3 iDuelists) would be a risk the mesmer needs to calculate. Tie it to signet of illusions or whatever, but make there be some sort of risk/reward involved with this build.

Kryshade.6075:

I would propose that the mesmer loses a certain amount of health each time a phantasm is killed. This would make focusing the phantasms a viable strategy and having a lot out at once (i.e. 3 iDuelists) would be a risk the mesmer needs to calculate. Tie it to signet of illusions or whatever, but make there be some sort of risk/reward involved with this build.

I like this idea, maybe another option would be to change it so that when the mesmer spawns an illusion their total health pool is dropped by a percentage.

The solution proposed by Anet as seen by leaving the mesmer class largely as is is to roll one.

I don’t see what the problem is. Just roll a mesmer/guardian/thief or whatever fotm class is.

They are busy with the dragon bash and all and have breathing room to ignore the customers since ESO is in spring ’14.

Jackums.3496:

The Phantasm Mesmer pays for their 1v1 efficiency by sucking everywhere else.

I’m currently running this build, going for mercy runes or centaur, depending on me being a roamer or more in Teamfights.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAR8alwzip3QTrGadJh5D9+MDlzc0CIVQ1lPgbA-TsAg0CvImRNjbGzMyZszMsYZxuAA

Let me explain very carefully why this build is so much more than a 1v1-build:

1) Portal with reduced CD: Reduced Portal CD is worth pure Gold and Portal is always one of the best Skills to have.
2) Excellent Ranged-DPS in Teamfights: Thanks to the GS, Duelist etc.
3) Best Hardrez-Trait in the game (Medic’s Feedback) and can rez pretty good without dying even though he runs a Zerker-Amu because of it.
4) Decent AoE and decent against downed Players (GS 1 – yes, it’s AoE / Berzeker / GS 3 / Blurred Frenzy / Shatter if necessary)
5) AoE Knockback
6) Great Spike-Support with decent spiked DMG (not great, but decent) and an Immobilize/Stun
7) Very high Sustain for running a Berzerker-Amu because of great Regen-Uptime, Protection, reduced DMG per Illusion etc.
8) Some of the best Teamfight-Elites
9) Decent at stomping because of Distortion
10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

It’s actually one of the best Teamfight-builds available and if you run it together with a bit of Support against Condis and decent Sustain-Pressure (for example Ele, Guard etc.) you really can’t go wrong in any Teamfights

Kryshade.6075:

I think everyone can agree this build is pretty much OP when it comes to 1v1. Again the complaint is there is no skill level involved to play this build because the AI does the fighting. Minion master necro’s are a good example of a strong 1v1 build that absolutely sucks in tournaments. The build is relatively strong when played well (again the AI is doing a lot of the work) however there are some very significant counters to it such as Moa, direct sustained damage, AOE’ing the minions etc (pretty sure minions have about as much life as a traited phantasm). The phantasm mesmer has NO direct counter and outshines even the strongest 1v1 classes.

I dispute all of you that say this build has no place in tournaments. It has no place in a 4v4 team fight sure, but even then the range on the iDuelist is what, 900? It’s nothing to place 3 iDuelists on your side of a point and sit there twiddling your thumbs while every 5 seconds they pump out 9k in damage combined. Map positioning is the ONLY thing this class needs to worry about. Drop them on a ledge, drop them outside a window, scatter them around a point and it’s stupid sustain damage.

I would propose that the mesmer loses a certain amount of health each time a phantasm is killed. This would make focusing the phantasms a viable strategy and having a lot out at once (i.e. 3 iDuelists) would be a risk the mesmer needs to calculate. Tie it to signet of illusions or whatever, but make there be some sort of risk/reward involved with this build.

Minion necro is a garbage 1v1 build. What the hell are you talking about.

The best necro 1v1 build by far is a terror build, and even then it’s a mediocre spec by 1v1 standards.

Jackums.3496:

PowerBottom.5796:

Jackums.3496:

The Phantasm Mesmer pays for their 1v1 efficiency by sucking everywhere else.

I’m currently running this build, going for mercy runes or centaur, depending on me being a roamer or more in Teamfights.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAR8alwzip3QTrGadJh5D9+MDlzc0CIVQ1lPgbA-TsAg0CvImRNjbGzMyZszMsYZxuAA

Let me explain very carefully why this build is so much more than a 1v1-build:

1) Portal with reduced CD: Reduced Portal CD is worth pure Gold and Portal is always one of the best Skills to have.
2) Excellent Ranged-DPS in Teamfights: Thanks to the GS, Duelist etc.
3) Best Hardrez-Trait in the game (Medic’s Feedback) and can rez pretty good without dying even though he runs a Zerker-Amu because of it.
4) Decent AoE and decent against downed Players (GS 1 – yes, it’s AoE / Berzeker / GS 3 / Blurred Frenzy / Shatter if necessary)
5) AoE Knockback
6) Great Spike-Support with decent spiked DMG (not great, but decent) and an Immobilize/Stun
7) Very high Sustain for running a Berzerker-Amu because of great Regen-Uptime, Protection, reduced DMG per Illusion etc.
8) Some of the best Teamfight-Elites
9) Decent at stomping because of Distortion
10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

It’s actually one of the best Teamfight-builds available and if you run it together with a bit of Support against Condis and decent Sustain-Pressure (for example Ele, Guard etc.) you really can’t go wrong in any Teamfights

None of the points you listed are even specific to a phantasm build, aside from the weak regen that phantasms offer, which you won’t be grouping around anyway, unless you want to get your phantasms destroyed by AoE the moment you summon them.

Shatter specs can also do everything you listed above whilst still not relying on the single-target and fragile source of damage that is phantasms.

Phantasm builds are undeniably “over-powered” in 1v1, but no-one can argue that their team fight efficiency is even remotely as high.

I just did.

Minion necro is a garbage 1v1 build. What the hell are you talking about.

The best necro 1v1 build by far is a terror build, and even then it’s a mediocre spec by 1v1 standards.

I have a nasty MM build that wrecks most people in 1v1’s. Minions used with the siphoning trait, zerker ammy and utilizing power will own a lot of people. I’m not saying it’s the greatest build in the world, but it certainly isn’t garbage. I’ve won more 1v1’s than I’ve lost against good players with it. The problem is, unlike phantasm mesmers, it has too many easy counters and isn’t viable in tournament settings.

PowerBottom.5796:

10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

Ahahahahahaha. And you expect to be taken seriously? Mesmer hard to stomp? Maybe for kittened people.

Pyroatheist.9031:

ManCaptain.3154:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Unfortunately, it turned out to be very difficult to actually capture the damage floaters of my phantasms with a screenshot. I’ve attached the (ugh) singular damage floater that I did manage to capture.

Regardless, in my testing with the build that I always run (zerker amulet, 6x runes of divinity, 10/30/0/25/5) I wakittenting for 4.2k reliably with the swordsman on the heavy target golem, and up to 5k on the light target golem. This is all with 0 stacks of vulnerability, as well as without any might or other boons.

The npcs are bad for testing because we have no way of knowing what ‘traits’ they have or what stat ‘amulets’ they are wearing. From the damage I did on them, they seemed to all have reasonably defensive stat sets, which skews the damage considerably when discussing a glass cannon.

Still not 6.5k hits you advertised, in fact it’s more than 1.5k off which is A LOT.

This is exactly my point. People post things that are demonstrably not true and builds that dump all utility and defense to just achieve high numbers. The only way you can get that strong damage is if you go 10/30/0/25/5 and full zerker and crit % runes. It’s a gimmick build. And even then you have a screen shot of 4.6k, a far cry from 6.5k. That’s basically lying, or grossly misrepresenting the actual situation.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Again, my build here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/page/4#post2147039

That’s a pve build and a complete glass cannon. A glass cannon with no staff. GG. Try roaming with this in wvw and get owned by a thief before you can do anything at all. Your claim that this build owns other glass cannons is not believable at all. You can’t touch a glass cannon evade thief.

That is most definitely not a pve build, and calling it as such is simply demonstrative of your ignorance with how phantasm builds work.

The build you linked, it uses ascended gear and has 94% bonus crit damage which is not obtainable in spvp.
And you took that build and said “hey guise, see how hard phantasms crits for?”.
I’m ignorant? You’re a liar.

Plain and simple phantasm build should not be used in tourneys. And for whoever said that a phantasm Mesmer needs to use Gs… you are out of your mind.. GS sucks right now. Thief auto attack hits harder than a zerker/phantasm Mesmer with the GS. That is proven. All over the Mesmer and game bug forums you will see people posting data/screens/videos of that phantasms suck damage right now…

Also Phantasm mesmers (if they are worried about keeping phantasms up) will take persisting images over the portal cd. Or they will take menders purity most likely both. Once phantasms are down that Mesmer is stuck. usually they have no teleports either. Phantasm Mesmer is straight up a 1-trick pony. Does it need adjusted? YES! The only reason why is.
III Domination: Empowered Illusions, illusions inflict 15% more damage.. This trait should have been scrapped when clones stopped doing damage. So maybe at the end of the month you guys will see your hated phantasm mesmers nerfed since its supposed to be a major trait overhaul. Don’t expect a hotfix/nerf for it any sooner.

Hmmm, I feel like a reasonable solution could be to scale up AI pets in this game.

1v1’s are often disregarded due to Anet balancing around team fights, but the relevance of a 1v1 in a Tpvp Match is undeniably there, even having to afford an extra teammate just to take out the phantasm mesmer is hindering your team.

Plus, in today’s Spvp community most of the Custom Arenas are duelling servers, and a lot the community actively 1v1 and base their skill+mastery of their profession on those, so if a large enough amount of the community finds it relevant, Anet should at least consider it.

But think about this, BM Rangers are also criticized for their now obscenely powerful pet in Spvp yet in large AoE fights in PvE or WvW, the pets die in less than seconds, or so the complaint is always that. The same thing is resembled in the Phantasm Mesmer debate topic… How would one make these AI pets less powerful in 1v1, but more powerful in a team fight?

What if, Phantasms and Pets scaled according to how many enemy players there were around them?

A 1v1 with a phant Mesmer would have them be far less potent then now, meaning their Phantasms would scale down in Health and Damage and become far more manageable, but the second a Phantasm Mesmer found themselves in a large AoE littered Group fight, they could still use Phantasms as they could scale up in Damage and health, and the same sort of idea with Ranger Pets.

This is just a rough thought I’ve had for a bit, so its not the final perfect solution or anything I just think it might help?

PistolWhip.2697:

Plus, in today’s Spvp community most of the Custom Arenas are duelling servers, and a lot the community actively 1v1 and base their skill+mastery of their profession on those, so if a large enough amount of the community finds it relevant, Anet should at least consider it.

Just because wow tryhard rambo wannabe kids sadly rushed into gw2…still miss the old good gw1 community..

ManCaptain.3154:

PowerBottom.5796:

10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

Ahahahahahaha. And you expect to be taken seriously? Mesmer hard to stomp? Maybe for kittened people.

Easy Stomps are stability/blindstmps, cuz they are basically free stomps
Hard Stomps are those with 1 getaway from any kind of Stomp (Ele and Mesmer) and then theres the Thief with 2.

Whats so hard to understand?

Jasher.6580:

I’m 100% certain that all the people complaining about the lolPhantasm build are either:

A. Have been playing the game for a long time, are bad at it and there is no hope for them to get better.

or

B. New at the game and will get better but they are currently bad.

Hmm, what is your leaderboard ranking oh great spvper? Because a number of people on the threat are above 200, so unless you’re like, top 50 I’m curious to know by what criteria you call them “bad” for pointing out a balance problem with a build.

ManCaptain.3154:

The build you linked, it uses ascended gear and has 94% bonus crit damage which is not obtainable in spvp.
And you took that build and said “hey guise, see how hard phantasms crits for?”.
I’m ignorant? You’re a liar.

Or you could read literally the next line after the build link where he explains what amulet/runes to use in sPvP and not look like a total idiot.

Maybe instead of trying to look like such a pro forum troller you could duel him, because I guarantee if he’s running the build he posted there is zero chance you will win.

PowerBottom.5796:

ManCaptain.3154:

PowerBottom.5796:

10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

Ahahahahahaha. And you expect to be taken seriously? Mesmer hard to stomp? Maybe for kittened people.

Easy Stomps are stability/blindstmps, cuz they are basically free stomps
Hard Stomps are those with 1 getaway from any kind of Stomp (Ele and Mesmer) and then theres the Thief with 2.

Whats so hard to understand?

Mesmers can be handled, but it’s super chancy. You can fake out the stomp and re-stomp to force their cloak skill prematurely and then hope they re-appear near you but that’s about it. Ele is the hardest to stomp. Thief is annoying to stomp as well but you can at least dps him or blink to him if you have a blink skill (autotarget blinks are even better). Personally I enjoy seeing them get Moa’d when they are downed :P

ArcTheFallen.7682:

PowerBottom.5796:

ManCaptain.3154:

PowerBottom.5796:

10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

Ahahahahahaha. And you expect to be taken seriously? Mesmer hard to stomp? Maybe for kittened people.

Easy Stomps are stability/blindstmps, cuz they are basically free stomps
Hard Stomps are those with 1 getaway from any kind of Stomp (Ele and Mesmer) and then theres the Thief with 2.

Whats so hard to understand?

Mesmers can be handled, but it’s super chancy. You can fake out the stomp and re-stomp to force their cloak skill prematurely and then hope they re-appear near you but that’s about it. Ele is the hardest to stomp. Thief is annoying to stomp as well but you can at least dps him or blink to him if you have a blink skill (autotarget blinks are even better). Personally I enjoy seeing them get Moa’d when they are downed :P

HAHA..ele the hardest to stomp….it must be hard to walk for 1s to stomp a free kill target while every other profession can still kill you while downed, professions like engy and ranger can have 2-3 interrupts, engy can self-ress, mesmer can crit for 4-5k dmg while downed, thief hit you for 1.5k and cripple you while teleporting and stealthing away….and in all this ele is the hardest to stomp..my god really

Arheundel.6451:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

PowerBottom.5796:

ManCaptain.3154:

PowerBottom.5796:

10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

Ahahahahahaha. And you expect to be taken seriously? Mesmer hard to stomp? Maybe for kittened people.

Easy Stomps are stability/blindstmps, cuz they are basically free stomps
Hard Stomps are those with 1 getaway from any kind of Stomp (Ele and Mesmer) and then theres the Thief with 2.

Whats so hard to understand?

Mesmers can be handled, but it’s super chancy. You can fake out the stomp and re-stomp to force their cloak skill prematurely and then hope they re-appear near you but that’s about it. Ele is the hardest to stomp. Thief is annoying to stomp as well but you can at least dps him or blink to him if you have a blink skill (autotarget blinks are even better). Personally I enjoy seeing them get Moa’d when they are downed :P

HAHA..ele the hardest to stomp….it must be hard to walk for 1s to stomp a free kill target while every other profession can still kill you while downed, professions like engy and ranger can have 2-3 interrupts, engy can self-ress, mesmer can crit for 4-5k dmg while downed, thief hit you for 1.5k and cripple you while teleporting and stealthing away….and in all this ele is the hardest to stomp..my god really

Ele is the only class that can stop a stomp with 100% certainty. Mesmer will fail to stop a stomp if they have no targets or if they use the skill too early. Thief will fail to stop a stomp if the class stomping them has a blink/shadowstep. Every other class in the game will fail to stop a stomp due to blind, invuln, or stability. Every single other class other than guardians will fail to stop a stomp due to stealth.

Arheundel.6451:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

PowerBottom.5796:

ManCaptain.3154:

PowerBottom.5796:

10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

Ahahahahahaha. And you expect to be taken seriously? Mesmer hard to stomp? Maybe for kittened people.

Easy Stomps are stability/blindstmps, cuz they are basically free stomps
Hard Stomps are those with 1 getaway from any kind of Stomp (Ele and Mesmer) and then theres the Thief with 2.

Whats so hard to understand?

Mesmers can be handled, but it’s super chancy. You can fake out the stomp and re-stomp to force their cloak skill prematurely and then hope they re-appear near you but that’s about it. Ele is the hardest to stomp. Thief is annoying to stomp as well but you can at least dps him or blink to him if you have a blink skill (autotarget blinks are even better). Personally I enjoy seeing them get Moa’d when they are downed :P

HAHA..ele the hardest to stomp….it must be hard to walk for 1s to stomp a free kill target while every other profession can still kill you while downed, professions like engy and ranger can have 2-3 interrupts, engy can self-ress, mesmer can crit for 4-5k dmg while downed, thief hit you for 1.5k and cripple you while teleporting and stealthing away….and in all this ele is the hardest to stomp..my god really

This is just going by the concept of ‘safe’ stomps. You have one on every class except those 3. Thief is limited to blink skills and mesmer is limited to frenzy stomps (? maybe) and/or fake out stomps. The hardest to pull a 100% stomp on is the ele. So if you had a stomp showdown between two teams, a downed ranger can be stomped with stability while the ele cannot. The ranger would then die and the ele would rally. Similary, res skills can be used while the ele is invulnerable, so a ‘late to the fight’ necro, mesmer could get a skill res in to possibly change the tides of the fight. On a side note, don’t jump the gun unless you know what I’m talking about lol.

Arheundel.6451:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

PowerBottom.5796:

ManCaptain.3154:

PowerBottom.5796:

10) Strong downed-mode, which is getting incresingly important nowadays. I see full teamfight-comps built around the fact that their Players are hard to stomp (1 Mes, 2 Ele, 1 Thief + Tankguard).

Ahahahahahaha. And you expect to be taken seriously? Mesmer hard to stomp? Maybe for kittened people.

Easy Stomps are stability/blindstmps, cuz they are basically free stomps
Hard Stomps are those with 1 getaway from any kind of Stomp (Ele and Mesmer) and then theres the Thief with 2.

Whats so hard to understand?

Mesmers can be handled, but it’s super chancy. You can fake out the stomp and re-stomp to force their cloak skill prematurely and then hope they re-appear near you but that’s about it. Ele is the hardest to stomp. Thief is annoying to stomp as well but you can at least dps him or blink to him if you have a blink skill (autotarget blinks are even better). Personally I enjoy seeing them get Moa’d when they are downed :P

HAHA..ele the hardest to stomp….it must be hard to walk for 1s to stomp a free kill target while every other profession can still kill you while downed, professions like engy and ranger can have 2-3 interrupts, engy can self-ress, mesmer can crit for 4-5k dmg while downed, thief hit you for 1.5k and cripple you while teleporting and stealthing away….and in all this ele is the hardest to stomp..my god really

In what kind of Hotjoin-Games do you play?

If sm1 in a Teamfight is downed, everyone starts to rez him and the oppising Team damages him and 1 does a Safe-Stomp. Every Team will have a safestomp ready in a teamfight. There will be almost no chance for the downed player to lie on the ground for more than a few seconds and he’ll not do dmg in 99% of the cases but try to rez himself or use the escape if he has one.

And yes, the hardest Target to stomp on first try is the Ele, but not by a lot, because even with fake-out-stomps (which costs you time you don’t have when a target is getting rezzed) and potential Blink-stomps don’t make a huge difference. That’s why the Thief has by far the best downed-mode, cuz he has 2 rather safe escapes. Then comes the Ele, then the Mesmer and all the rest are freestomps in Teamfights.

Yes, some downed-modes are decent in 1v1’s or sth., but that wasn’t what I was talking about and it doesn’t happen too often that a fight is decided in downed-mode (it happens, but being hard to stomp in Teamfights is easily 10 times more important than having a pet to rez you, or having two interrupts, good DPS or sth.)

On the very high level, it’s all about controlling downed Players, it’s such an important Aspect, that’s why on-rez- and during-rez-effects as well as being able to AoE downed Players well and having Softrezzes available is one of the most important Aspects of a well thought-out Teamfight-oriented Team-Setup.

That’s where I come back to the Mesmer with his incredible Bubble during Rez (literally negates most DMG that Teams have against downed-players, like Thief Shortbow, Ele AoE, Nade-Engi) and his good downed-mode. Yes, it’s possible to get the bubble-rez on a Shatter as well (I’d highly recommend getting rid of at least 20 Points in Illusions and put them into Inspiration), but it’s easier to get it on the Phantasm-Mesmer.

Illusionary Persona is getting more and more useless anyways, because Mesmer deal a lot of their DPS from the distance now and for 1v1’s on the Nodes, you don’t send the Mesmer back anyways. Besides, the 300 Points of Condi-DMG get you nowhere…

@Powerbottom

so many lectures that you’re trying to give…and you don’t know you can immobilize ele before he uses vapor form?..so what high level you’re playing again?
Between a profession that can potentially kill you while downed and another that may only waste your time for 1s to roflstomp him..the latter is the hardest?…nice logic but I’ll stick to my logic

If my team is capping..nobody care if the enemy team waste time try to ress the ele far away, an ele is nowhere near the level of threat of a generic mesmer…once in a while you get that serious super skilled ele who may possibly pose a threat…but that it’s extremely rare

A mesmer can still deal over 10k dmg while downed, thief can aoe cripple on top of constant 1.5k dmg, guardian can push off entire team from point, ranger can aoe fear with dog, engy can aoe knockback whole team from point…and ele can waste your time for vapor form 1s …omfg ele is the hardest to stomp..

1)Lose to anyone who has high armor, spammable protection and regen (guardians, rangers, ele)

2)Lose to d/p thieves

3)You can deny phantasm spawning with LoS blocking or by blinding them (warrior longbow has a blind, scepter ele has 3 blinds if you coun’t evasive arcana, x/p on thief has blind spam or you can daze spam LOL, guardian has blind, ect..)

4)Shatter builds are better anyway.

5)LOL phantasms die in 2 hits even with signet.

Arheundel.6451:

@Powerbottom

so many lectures that you’re trying to give…and you don’t know you can immobilize ele before he uses vapor form?..so what high level you’re playing again?
Between a profession that can potentially kill you while downed and another that may only waste your time for 1s to roflstomp him..the latter is the hardest?…nice logic but I’ll stick to my logic

If my team is capping..nobody care if the enemy team waste time try to ress the ele far away, an ele is nowhere near the level of threat of a generic mesmer…once in a while you get that serious super skilled ele who may possibly pose a threat…but that it’s extremely rare

So? immobilize or not, he’s still invulnerable.

I normally play in top300 btw (although we’re not too active atm), I scrim and 1v1 with Top10 Players and I was top20 in the height of GW1 GvG and again; I’m talking about a Teamfight-Scenario with 3+ Players on both Sides. In those Scenarios, if sm1 gets downed and stomped, you basically lost.

Why do you think ppl don’t choose Thiefs or even kinda glassy Ele’s as first-targets? Because they know they won’t be able to stomp them before the rez happens.

I acknowledged already that there are Situations where other downed-Modes are better than Thief/Ele/Mesmer, but they are rare and you wouldn’t seek out Teamfight-Situations with those builds anyways and the easy stomp is a big reason for that.

Oh yeah, Engi downed Mode is indirectly pretty strong too, cuz of Elexir R rez.

And this isn’t a discussion about which class is better nor do I say Ele>Mesmer or sth. The reason why this discussion about downed-modes started was because I said that the downed-mode of the Mesmer is a big Plus in Teamfights. I have no Idea why you are talking about rezzing Eles far away or sth. btw. but if you don’t see the value of rezzing Players, you surely haven’t played any competetive premade-Matches even in the Top-1000.

Rezzing, not getting stomped and generally controlling downed-players and rezzers with AoE etc. is simply incredibly, game-changingly important in Teamfights.

@sorrychief: You know there are a lot of different variations of Phantasm-Mesmer, right? They range from rather tanky and Sustain-Heavy to even glassier than a Shatter-Mesmer/Thief…

Didn’t read anything but this is probably a QQ thread about phantasms being too strong, so I’ll just chime in and say: whatever you (ANet) do - don’t freaking touch PvE (unless you’re planning to fix iZerker, that would be welcome) . Thanks, go on.

Arheundel.6451:

@Powerbottom

so many lectures that you’re trying to give…and you don’t know you can immobilize ele before he uses vapor form?..so what high level you’re playing again?
Between a profession that can potentially kill you while downed and another that may only waste your time for 1s to roflstomp him..the latter is the hardest?…nice logic but I’ll stick to my logic

If my team is capping..nobody care if the enemy team waste time try to ress the ele far away, an ele is nowhere near the level of threat of a generic mesmer…once in a while you get that serious super skilled ele who may possibly pose a threat…but that it’s extremely rare

A mesmer can still deal over 10k dmg while downed, thief can aoe cripple on top of constant 1.5k dmg, guardian can push off entire team from point, ranger can aoe fear with dog, engy can aoe knockback whole team from point…and ele can waste your time for vapor form 1s …omfg ele is the hardest to stomp..

While I may be rather annoyed that, as an ele, I have an extremely low chance of killing my opponent if I go down, I cannot deny that Vapor Form, and the chain-immobilize of Grasping Earth, if I survive long enough to use it, are extremely good in a team setting.

Also, I think the Engineer’s downed state is probably the worst – if you time it perfectly you might get 2 interrupts on one opponent, but you do absolutely laughable damage and are completely helpless against more than one enemy.

well the ‘tanky and sustain-heavy’ isn’t really a threat unless said mez has sword/focus and knows how to have perma retaliation up with idefender out so you’ll only be killing yourself in the end, anyways who is attacking low damage phantasm mez in teamfight who can maybe pull people off nodes/SR/rezzing teamate with curtain or whip out staff and temate has alot of blast finishers?

sure you can hold a point against bad players with such a build build but other classes do it better. if people are going to run gimmicky builds they should aleast make it dps orientated.

for hotjoin heroes and solo queue soliders a phantasm mez is. . .lol, it’s more of a 1vs1 build.

sorrychief.2563:

for hotjoin heroes and solo queue soliders

You’re pretty much completely wrong in everything you said in your post. However, for the amusement value of the quoted statement, I felt I had to recognize it somehow.

Arheundel.6451:

@Powerbottom

so many lectures that you’re trying to give…and you don’t know you can immobilize ele before he uses vapor form?..so what high level you’re playing again?
Between a profession that can potentially kill you while downed and another that may only waste your time for 1s to roflstomp him..the latter is the hardest?…nice logic but I’ll stick to my logic

If my team is capping..nobody care if the enemy team waste time try to ress the ele far away, an ele is nowhere near the level of threat of a generic mesmer…once in a while you get that serious super skilled ele who may possibly pose a threat…but that it’s extremely rare

A mesmer can still deal over 10k dmg while downed, thief can aoe cripple on top of constant 1.5k dmg, guardian can push off entire team from point, ranger can aoe fear with dog, engy can aoe knockback whole team from point…and ele can waste your time for vapor form 1s …omfg ele is the hardest to stomp..

I’m talking about actual team fights, not solo 1s. If you are talking about a 1v1 scenario, no downed state is good at all actually. But in a team fight, the person who can avoid getting stomped the longest for a rally or a res, is the winner. If I down your non-ele teammate and you down my ele teammate, and I do a mist-form stomp or distortion stomp on your teammate, wanna guess what’s gonna happen? Let’s even say you start your stomp first on my downed ele ally; you still aren’t gonna finish them in time. He/or she is going to mist form until rally and then you are gonna have a bad time. This occurs a lot more often than you’d think sir. So yes, eles are really annoying to stomp in team fights when it counts. I’m glad you have a good time 1v1ing eles though.

edit: are you really just normal stomping people? lol

For Mesmers: Welcome in Thief world.People have moved from swearing on Thief to the Mesmer. Who will be next ?

How can you balance a game in 5vs5 if it is not balanced on 1vs1 before..?
I mean, if 1 mesmer can beat any other proffesion/build out there, what would 5 of the same mesmers do against 5 random proffesions?

Balance starts from the minimun(1vs1) and ends on the maximum(5vs5). Once you balance proffesions on 1vs1, you have balanced the XvX .

Archaon.6245:

PistolWhip.2697:

Plus, in today’s Spvp community most of the Custom Arenas are duelling servers, and a lot the community actively 1v1 and base their skill+mastery of their profession on those, so if a large enough amount of the community finds it relevant, Anet should at least consider it.

Just because wow tryhard rambo wannabe kids sadly rushed into gw2…still miss the old good gw1 community..

My account on GW1 is hitting the 81 month mark I think, and being an old GW1 player I share the nostalgia.

But there was also a vibrant 1v1 community in that game due to scrimmages being held in Guild Halls. People would even actively bet on winning or losing (some of course didn’t hold up to their end of the agreement), and many guilds had regular 1v1 Events. I don’t know the situation of WoW because I’ve never played it but, I’m sure GW 1 had just as relevant of a 1v1 community as GW 2 does now, even more so possibly? since it was supported.

yes I’m wrong! I’m always wrong, but can you deny a situationally aware mez can pull thieves out of SR, people off points or delay a stomp/rez when the person doesn’t have stability? all with 1 skill from the focus on a very low cooldown.

okay let’s look at OH pistol:
1)the #5 skill fails in comparison to the utility a traited/untraited focus offers
2)easily dodgeroll through all of the iduelist volley
3)focus phantasm is 100% more useful in every other way. the warden can act as a psuedo shield against ranged classes.
4)mez is all about utility, you bring ZERO utility to a teamfight decoy/mirror images/moa
5)portal/illusion of life/timewarp all outclass the above utility skills AND benefit your entire group in some way or another

now I bet you’re gonna tell me Moa morph is better than timewarp or mass invis? all for the sake of dominating 1 npc/person in 1vs1? please stop trolling me I’ve have disrespected none of you with my presented ideals about how irrelevant phantasms mesmers are in teamplay.

glad that comment amused you btw I try my best to do a service to this community.

natsos.3692:

How can you balance a game in 5vs5 if it is not balanced on 1vs1 before..?
I mean, if 1 mesmer can beat any other proffesion/build out there, what would 5 of the same mesmers do against 5 random proffesions?

Balance starts from the minimun(1vs1) and ends on the maximum(5vs5). Once you balance proffesions on 1vs1, you have balanced the XvX .

Thats simply not true….. How can u possibly believe that?