Guild Wars 2

I remember sensotix posting a thread 3/4 months ago about anet listening to the wrong players.

This pistol whip proves it. I leave the game for 2 months and I come back to find this pistol whip build. I mean wow. I am in shock. It is completely lame to try and ever heal right now as a necro.

Why did they listen to all the baddies on the forum before the last balance patch. They all QQed about the initiative traits being nerfed when the net result was more initiative anyway thanks to the stupid 33% buff to initative regen. They lowered all thief skills cooldowns by 33%!!! Wtf, that is like making “Pin Down” have a 10 second cooldown on average and being spammable at best.

Why would they do this. It is completely absurd. And nothing even comes close to this thief BS. It has shut mesmer out for about 6 months. Same with ele. Conditions aren’t really the biggest problem for ele. Thieves are, and they always have been. Same for mesmers. It is thieves who shut they down utterly.

And despite thieves being the best class for about 15 months, anet spend their last patch MASSIVELY buffing them across the board. And reducing the skill needed to play them (as they dont have to manage initiative as much anymore by using signets or whatever – it all just comes back). It literally makes no sense.

If they continue to listen to the clueless people in the class forums or in the profession balance forums then we will never get a fun game. Even these people will eventually learn they are clueless if and when they improve to a decent level of play.

I just am shocked to come back to this game and the meta has somehow managed to get worse as a result of december 10th. They literally have the worst testing procedures. Having no test server is such an epic fail.

The amount of CC in this game is ridiculous. And all they do is buff CC every patch

The main problem is the heal, pistol whip is not as powerful with out the stupid short cooldown heal that on top of healing give u a dodge back which will fk any class

Oh man these new kids complaining about pistolwhip.

I still remember when you could global anyone back when haste was real.

pwhip just too easy to avoid, sorry to say. Only hitting a couple slashes just doesnt cut it

whats the rotation for pistol whip? can you precast pistol#5 before inf strike?
precast #5, #2, #3, if can stay for a while auto #1, #2 back once it gets bad. is that how it works?

Nope. The only “rotation” is using basilisk or devourer venom, precast pistolwhip and teleport when the first sword slash hits. This eliminates the delay between warning and damage starting… but you can only do this a very limited number of times.

Basically OP vs other glass cannons… just like every other thief spec already is—which is the real reason this thread exists

This ability is pretty dumb. I was amazed when they buffed the aftercast some time ago in the first place.

Even if you don’t play the game all it takes is watching good streamers to see how stupid it is now.

I much preferred it when the ability required genuine setup to get the damage portion in.

Now, “3,3,3,3,3” isn’t that much of an exaggeration. To paraphrase Phanta’s moments of suffering on stream “Time to deal damage? Pistolwhip. I’m getting focused? Pistolwhip. Downed guy? Pistolwhip. He’s healing? Pistolwhip.”

What a joke.

Played S/P ever since release, so here is my opinion: Usually it is a great setup, because it works without stealth and all abilities are somehow useful.

After last patch this setup became so boring and the skill cap lowered much. Don´t know how to describe, it just feels wrong and bad to play at the moment. It was great pre -paralization- patch (the pistol whip-skill itself, without sigil, just want everyone to know which patch I mean):
1. The stun duration was longer, but it took also a while before the whirling started. So enemies had the chance to escape and dodge.
2. According to this, the thief had to position himself in the right spot to land every hit, which need a higher skill cap.
3. You couldn´t spam the skill that much, due to the initiative reg, which was ~-30%.
4. The animation was much slower, that’s why the thief took more damage before the evades started (risk-reward)
5. S/P had quite a higher skill cap, that’s why nobody (except a few people) played that setup.
6. It was a good feeling to play a setup, which was quite balanced compared to S/D and D/P.

Actually nearly everyone run this build because it´s just broken. Due to the ini reg you can spam this skill that much… Should have done a video:D Man I saw thieves just spamming #3 in the wall to evade! Think that fact explains everything about that skill.

So here are my solutions:
1. Turn it back to “pre-para-patch” or
2. Maybe separate the skill just like ls/fs with higher ini cost or undo the ini-reg-buff or
3. Maybe “only stuns the enemy if you hit him from behind” or
4. Delete “Stun” add “daze”
5….
? Increase the skill-cap, otherwise there will appear even more “spam#3likeabosswithoutriskthieves”
There are a lot of options… But please, just please make that skill non spam able anymore like this. There is such a low risk to a high reward like this. You can blame me for that, but it´s the truth. Man I just switched to S/D (that’s spamming like a boss too) but it feels much better than s/p, because there is no spam able stun, evade and aoe dmg at the same time.

Oh yes the magical pistol whip build… Are we all talking about the one that uses no signets, no set up; no secondary weapon; and the 1, 2, 4, and 5 skills are all blank and NEVER used? I’ve seen a few thieves using this build, and I promptly kitten on them.

OP, if you’re losing to this build as a necro then either practice against it and learn to counter it, or accept that you’re bad and leave these forums; Anet devs have been mislead enough. The trickery version of pistol whip puts out crap for dmg against you (if you’re playing standard dhuumfire).

As long as there are multiple classes in this game, your class will have a direct a counter. I don’t come on here and cry about how engi’s standing inside their bombs is unfair to melee classes NERF NERF NERF! I just shouldn’t have been dumb enough to stay on point that long with SS down. That being said, thief =\= direct counter to necros.

MatthiasL.5346:

6. It was a good feeling to play a setup, which was quite balanced compared to S/D and D/P.

Nailed it. Now that it’s buffed Pwhip isn’t any more powerful than these sets (probably less powerful). These threads are just symptomatic of the larger problem with the thief profession—their ability to completely negate other glass prof’s defensive mechanics.

Additional QQ is mainly due to peoples’ inexperience in facing pwhip causing panic and confusion

TainoFuerte.8136:

This ability is pretty dumb. I was amazed when they buffed the aftercast some time ago in the first place.

Even if you don’t play the game all it takes is watching good streamers to see how stupid it is now.

I much preferred it when the ability required genuine setup to get the damage portion in.

Now, “3,3,3,3,3” isn’t that much of an exaggeration. To paraphrase Phanta’s moments of suffering on stream “Time to deal damage? Pistolwhip. I’m getting focused? Pistolwhip. Downed guy? Pistolwhip. He’s healing? Pistolwhip.”

What a joke.

And what my good sir should we do instead? Black powder and auto attack? LOL! I’m sure you would find that enjoyable. You want something to complain about because… I don’t know… That’s just the kind of person you are? Complain about Lyssa runes… aegis and stability on a 45 sec cd with mass condi clear? Wtf anet!? Complain about sb 3 evade. I main thief and I say we need a kittening after cast or something on this ability! It’s too strong. I’m tired of outplaying other thieves just to have them sb 3 stall until their heal comes up and they run away…

Pistol whip is fine.

Ixl Super Ixl.7258:

The main problem is the heal, pistol whip is not as powerful with out the stupid short cooldown heal that on top of healing give u a dodge back which will fk any class

That is one of many problems. Theif withdraw has a CRAZY short CD and cannot be interrupted as the full heal is applied at the start of the skill. Even if you are stupid and withdraw into a static field of ring of warding you still get the heal. The gap created is also very strong.

The primary problem for pistol-whip 1-shotting people is the instant ports + stun/immob venom, that require no risk at all to pursue a target, on top of the spam-ability of the skill.

Thieves have devolved into their current state because it took time for people to learn to play them, but when they learned to chain all their evades and stealth together, they end up surviving as well as a tanky player while doing their insane damage with no incentive to build any way but full-dps. Every thief QQ’s about constant nerfs, while ignoring the biggest buff any class has received (free init regen) that allows them to spam their no-cd skills for days.

When you play thief, you are so strong because no only do you bring the best damage pressure, but you also control the pace of the interaction with your #1 mobility (allow choice of time to engage) + stealth (to drop any pesky targets when they start focusing you) + interrupts and blinds on-demand.

Eri.8560:

And what my good sir should we do instead? Black powder and auto attack? LOL! I’m sure you would find that enjoyable. You want something to complain about because… I don’t know…

Have to use the skills on the set intelligently.

I point this out because I want this game to be good.

gesho.9468:

Dahkeus.8243:

Huh? That stun is tiny and has a terribly obvious pre-cast to show you that it’s coming.

duration is not the only value of the stun. how about interrupt?

1) My reply was to someone saying that the stun duration was long.

2) If you want to talk about the interrupt, then fine: The interrupt has always been there and it wasn’t OP before. Just because more people are using Pistol Whip doesn’t mean it became more powerful than it was before.

this build is stupid, nerf need

MatthiasL.5346:

Played S/P ever since release, so here is my opinion: Usually it is a great setup, because it works without stealth and all abilities are somehow useful.

After last patch this setup became so boring and the skill cap lowered much. Don´t know how to describe, it just feels wrong and bad to play at the moment. It was great pre -paralization- patch (the pistol whip-skill itself, without sigil, just want everyone to know which patch I mean):
1. The stun duration was longer, but it took also a while before the whirling started. So enemies had the chance to escape and dodge.
2. According to this, the thief had to position himself in the right spot to land every hit, which need a higher skill cap.
3. You couldn´t spam the skill that much, due to the initiative reg, which was ~-30%.
4. The animation was much slower, that’s why the thief took more damage before the evades started (risk-reward)
5. S/P had quite a higher skill cap, that’s why nobody (except a few people) played that setup.
6. It was a good feeling to play a setup, which was quite balanced compared to S/D and D/P.

Actually nearly everyone run this build because it´s just broken. Due to the ini reg you can spam this skill that much… Should have done a video:D Man I saw thieves just spamming #3 in the wall to evade! Think that fact explains everything about that skill.

So here are my solutions:
1. Turn it back to “pre-para-patch” or
2. Maybe separate the skill just like ls/fs with higher ini cost or undo the ini-reg-buff or
3. Maybe “only stuns the enemy if you hit him from behind” or
4. Delete “Stun” add “daze”
5….
? Increase the skill-cap, otherwise there will appear even more “spam#3likeabosswithoutriskthieves”
There are a lot of options… But please, just please make that skill non spam able anymore like this. There is such a low risk to a high reward like this. You can blame me for that, but it´s the truth. Man I just switched to S/D (that’s spamming like a boss too) but it feels much better than s/p, because there is no spam able stun, evade and aoe dmg at the same time.

Last Initiative change nerf PW so hard, because Opportunist has now 5 sec CD = lowest Initiative regen and of course nerf all initiative passive regen traits.

Who says that the thief got initiative regen boost is ignorant.

Evilek.5690:

Last Initiative change nerf PW so hard, because Opportunist has now 5 sec CD = lowest Initiative regen and of course nerf all initiative passive regen traits.

I guess you haven’t played the 10/30/0/0/30 PW build. The change to initiative regen made init regen traits and skills completely unnecessary. Also , changes to after-casts have buffed the skill.

BlackBeard.2873:

Evilek.5690:

Last Initiative change nerf PW so hard, because Opportunist has now 5 sec CD = lowest Initiative regen and of course nerf all initiative passive regen traits.

I guess you haven’t played the 10/30/0/0/30 PW build. The change to initiative regen made init regen traits and skills completely unnecessary. Also , changes to after-casts have buffed the skill.

Of course Arenanet changes PW after-casts beacose nerf paralyze sigil = nerf stun, boost cast speed. And Initiative regen nerf reduce the amount of PW in row

People start play S/P because Arenanet nerf S/D to hell thats all.

i play thief and ele
sp is one of the easiest build to use and the most frustating build to against, also dodge spamming

Simon.3794:

i play thief and ele
sp is one of the easiest build to use and the most frustating build to against, also dodge spamming

SP is easiest build ? I must play other class

Evilek.5690:

Simon.3794:

i play thief and ele
sp is one of the easiest build to use and the most frustating build to against, also dodge spamming

SP is easiest build ? I must play other class

i meant for thief, but yes, even in general, sp is still one of the easiest builds.

Simon.3794:

Evilek.5690:

Simon.3794:

i play thief and ele
sp is one of the easiest build to use and the most frustating build to against, also dodge spamming

SP is easiest build ? I must play other class

i meant for thief, but yes, even in general, sp is still one of the easiest builds.

easy→hard to play

d/p→p/d→s/d→p/p→s/p=d/d

Thief just seriously needs to be redesigned. I mained a thief for a long while and it got so boring it was stupid. There is no diversity within the weapon set at all. ZERO. D/D and D/P all rely on backstab. CnD/Backstab or BP/HS/Backstab. Everything else is completely useless when it comes to damage. Then you have S/P which only relies on Pistolwhip while everything else is useless for damage. You can’t really blame thieves because that’s all they have for damage so it is the only thing they can use to survive and win and not to mention that they have initiative instead of CD’s. I mean if Ele had intiative instead of CD’s you know everyone would probably be just spamming “Burning Speed” in D/D instead of using combos and certain tactics. Then we go into how broken stealth is in this game. Or maybe it’s not broken but the fact that thieves have to rely on it so much makes the class broken. D/D and D/P (especially D/P) extremely rely on stealth because of two reasons.
1. It’s what gets their only decent move off (Backstab)
2. It’s the only way they can survive
Stealth just does not have a counter. I don’t want to hear, “oh you can swing your weapon or AOE the spot the thief stealthed in, dur” as some excuse for a counter. The fact that you can’t see or target a person in stealth at all and that you are just blindly guessing at what the person is going to do is not a counter. Countering someone is like seeing their weapon animation thus you know when to dodge or using a cleanse on conditions.
If Anet redesigned the class to not have to rely on stealth and a single move to survive/win I would probably go back to playing my thief. I have since rolled an Ele that I main and love because of the diversity it has, and still has the burst even though it is the worst class in the current PvP meta. I so want to play thief again, but only when it is fun by not having to do the same thing over and over and over again which is what makes other classes fun. They have different damage abilities depending on the situation. I could keep rambling but I’ll stop. I hope someone got something out of what I tried to say.

EDIT: And in no way am I saying things such as D/D are OP. D/D is probably one of the more difficult thief weapon sets because you actually have to have and hit a target to get stealthed but it goes along with my argument being the fact that it is boring and repetitive because that’s all you can do.

Chain stun + full evade wars

dDuff.3860:

Hey, I was using PWhip and it was cool before stun-rounding were fixed!

I was wondering when the hipster comments were going to come out

Evilek.5690:

Simon.3794:

Evilek.5690:

Simon.3794:

i play thief and ele
sp is one of the easiest build to use and the most frustating build to against, also dodge spamming

SP is easiest build ? I must play other class

i meant for thief, but yes, even in general, sp is still one of the easiest builds.

easy->hard to play

d/p->p/d->s/d->p/p->s/p=d/d

nah, i have less thief experience then you, and i say sp>sd~dp, but not like there are any hard to use build, just saying which is the easiest, also i have way more general pvp experience then a PvDoor’er like you

333333 and congratulations, you killed a good mesmer even tho you(i) are a super casual thief.

MTC.9536:

Nerf pistolwhip ANET! You said you don’t want stunspamm in this game? Well there you go, spamming 3 for win, while having an OP port which goes horizontal and vertikal, which makes it impossible to escape AND having an immobilize on it??
PW build uses #3 the whole time, to evade and do dmg, maybe one or two spammed dazes as well, but that’s it and everybody rerolls it now, even bad thieves do a lot of serious damage with it. Even if you breakstun and you go out of range the pistolwhip still hits you for at least 5k?!

Sword/pistol was already nerfed beyond recognition it is not even viable anymore. The stun is now only a quarter of a second, the cast time takes forever, and it does 25% less damage than before and uses more initiative. They don’t need to nerf it anymore.

Brewergamer.8357:

MTC.9536:

Nerf pistolwhip ANET! You said you don’t want stunspamm in this game? Well there you go, spamming 3 for win, while having an OP port which goes horizontal and vertikal, which makes it impossible to escape AND having an immobilize on it??
PW build uses #3 the whole time, to evade and do dmg, maybe one or two spammed dazes as well, but that’s it and everybody rerolls it now, even bad thieves do a lot of serious damage with it. Even if you breakstun and you go out of range the pistolwhip still hits you for at least 5k?!

Sword/pistol was already nerfed beyond recognition it is not even viable anymore. The stun is now only a quarter of a second, the cast time takes forever, and it does 25% less damage than before and uses more initiative. They don’t need to nerf it anymore.

HAHAHAHAHA
funny.

What can I do in this game?

I just get farmed constantly by thieves and warriors in team fights. Even if I do some sick kiting with spectral walk then some thief just teleports to me instantly. So my 60s cd is gone and they are on my kitten stunning me again? I then just can’t ever heal because these thieves are just dazing my heal and stunning me every time. If you are going to have such massive CC then please make necro heal 1/4 of a second cast time or something. ATM it is ABSURD how farmed I get.

At times, when not totally demoralized by the amount of CC spam, I actually kill people but then what. They just get refuged or the guy stomping just dies to some pistol whip dude.

The damage is insane. And the CC is everywhere in this game. Literally every game I get immobilized and stunned so I might as well not be at my computer but instead be in the kitchen making a sandwich.

Immobalise owns classes without peroidic or on demand cleanses (like guardian or thief or warrior has). I have to transfer it which often isnt so easy.

How do I even get close to beating ANY hambow warrior who runs leg specialist. I mean ok fighting condi or fighting axe/x warriors is fine but the hambow one’s with leg specialist what do I do? I have to dodge hammer cripple, earthshaker, other hammer smashes, pin down etc. That literally isnt possible. I cant even fear them off defensively because they are IMMUNE to everything I do. Literally 4s zerker stance duration was balanced then you just knee jerked it to about a billion seconds. What a joke. And yes if I am in god mode I can kill warriors and thieves (thieves easier 1 on 1 sure) but they are so forgiving on mistakes whereas 1 error for me and I am dead as a dodo.

But the worst is thieves in team fights. Sometimes there are two of them and they literally just you and stun you 100-0 to death and nothing you can do. How does something like that get through testing?

I am bored of getting farmed by newbies. Where is the skill in this game anymore. Seems like anybody can just be a right pain in my kitten if they run a certain build. It is a joke. This game needs some big time changes to make sure CC isn’t just everywhere. And immobalise too makes me want to cry sometimes it is so OP

Lordrosicky.5813:

What can I do in this game?

Not necessarily in this game, but ESO Beta is this weekend (access codes are online). There is also PvE and WvW which can still be pretty fun if that is your thing. Then, there is always one of the options to just reroll one of the incredibly broken things that exist in this game. Necro is still crazy strong, but maybe it just can’t compete with the absurdity that thieves have become. There is like a pyramid of OP specs out there right now (mostly from balance being neglected for so long) and its going to take a long time to sort it out.

Brewergamer.8357:

MTC.9536:

Nerf pistolwhip ANET! You said you don’t want stunspamm in this game? Well there you go, spamming 3 for win, while having an OP port which goes horizontal and vertikal, which makes it impossible to escape AND having an immobilize on it??
PW build uses #3 the whole time, to evade and do dmg, maybe one or two spammed dazes as well, but that’s it and everybody rerolls it now, even bad thieves do a lot of serious damage with it. Even if you breakstun and you go out of range the pistolwhip still hits you for at least 5k?!

Sword/pistol was already nerfed beyond recognition it is not even viable anymore. The stun is now only a quarter of a second, the cast time takes forever, and it does 25% less damage than before and uses more initiative. They don’t need to nerf it anymore.

I’m guessing you haven’t played in a year. What you said was certainly true early 2013, but isn’t true now

BlackBeard.2873:

Pistol-whip isn’t a problem by itself, its only when its-precast and one of the million shadowsteps are used to get incredible cleave damage with no risk as you are evading 80% of the animation. Without all the shadowsteps available, pistol-whip is much more balanced.

Yes, this is the solution. Nerf all the teleports. That’ll balance the thief for sure! /sarcasm.

Do you people think before you type? I mean – do you think of all of the possible applications of your suggestion and how they might affect every other aspect of the thief? Pistol Whip burst thief may be easy to play, and it’s quite gimmicky, but so is Killshot warrior (whom you won’t see coming 1500 units away while fighting his team mates on point), Fresh Air Ele, and phantasm burst Mes. They all die if you fart in their general direction, and rarely do any top-tier teams take these due to the above mentioned fact. They lend little to no benefit in actual roaming, and face it: the only time you die to one is fighting them with the pressure of one or more of their team mates. You people also don’t know what the thief meta is, apparently, because it’s still D/P trickery burst. The closest thing the S/P set has to meta is a 10/30/0/0/30 trickery build running a soldier’s amulet and barbarian’s jewel, making you hit for only 3-4k pistol whips if you’re lucky, and actually playing the set as intended rather than spamming 3 (which you’ll be accused of when playing S/P anyway). Good opponents will know exactly when the pistol whip evade ends and capitalize on that frame, since the thief is still rooted. If you’ve got a burst against a full zerk pistol whip thief, hit them at the end of that frame after you’ve figured it out and they’ll die instantly.

Glïnt/Quaggington,
Team Queue Leaderboard rank 474

Viking Jorun.5413:

Yes, this is the solution. Nerf all the teleports. That’ll balance the thief for sure! /sarcasm.

Do you people think before you type? I mean – do you think of all of the possible applications of your suggestion and how they might affect every other aspect of the thief? Pistol Whip burst thief may be easy to play, and it’s quite gimmicky, but so is Killshot warrior (whom you won’t see coming 1500 units away while fighting his team mates on point), Fresh Air Ele, and phantasm burst Mes. They all die if you fart in their general direction, and rarely do any top-tier teams take these due to the above mentioned fact. They lend little to no benefit in actual roaming, and face it: the only time you die to one is fighting them with the pressure of one or more of their team mates. You people also don’t know what the thief meta is, apparently, because it’s still D/P trickery burst. The closest thing the S/P set has to meta is a 10/30/0/0/30 trickery build running a soldier’s amulet and barbarian’s jewel, making you hit for only 3-4k pistol whips if you’re lucky, and actually playing the set as intended rather than spamming 3 (which you’ll be accused of when playing S/P anyway). Good opponents will know exactly when the pistol whip evade ends and capitalize on that frame, since the thief is still rooted. If you’ve got a burst against a full zerk pistol whip thief, hit them at the end of that frame after you’ve figured it out and they’ll die instantly.

Glïnt/Quaggington,
Team Queue Leaderboard rank 474

Please don’t talk about “thief meta” if you don’t know anything about the meta at all. Good day.

Reikou.7068:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Yes, this is the solution. Nerf all the teleports. That’ll balance the thief for sure! /sarcasm.

Do you people think before you type? I mean – do you think of all of the possible applications of your suggestion and how they might affect every other aspect of the thief? Pistol Whip burst thief may be easy to play, and it’s quite gimmicky, but so is Killshot warrior (whom you won’t see coming 1500 units away while fighting his team mates on point), Fresh Air Ele, and phantasm burst Mes. They all die if you fart in their general direction, and rarely do any top-tier teams take these due to the above mentioned fact. They lend little to no benefit in actual roaming, and face it: the only time you die to one is fighting them with the pressure of one or more of their team mates. You people also don’t know what the thief meta is, apparently, because it’s still D/P trickery burst. The closest thing the S/P set has to meta is a 10/30/0/0/30 trickery build running a soldier’s amulet and barbarian’s jewel, making you hit for only 3-4k pistol whips if you’re lucky, and actually playing the set as intended rather than spamming 3 (which you’ll be accused of when playing S/P anyway). Good opponents will know exactly when the pistol whip evade ends and capitalize on that frame, since the thief is still rooted. If you’ve got a burst against a full zerk pistol whip thief, hit them at the end of that frame after you’ve figured it out and they’ll die instantly.

Glïnt/Quaggington,
Team Queue Leaderboard rank 474

Please don’t talk about “thief meta” if you don’t know anything about the meta at all. Good day.

Please don’t insult my knowledge of the meta if you don’t read my post thoroughly enough to give a valid and well-thought answer explaining the details of why I’m wrong and you’re right, and your credentials for your authority on the matter. You must SoloQ a lot, where the meta is nowhere close to the TeamQ meta. I know exactly what the thief meta is, and you too can find this constantly updated thread explaining the rapidly evolving thief meta: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guide-to-Thief-Guides/first

(D/P trickery is still the meta; thanks, troll. Toker’s build has never been a viable format in Team tournaments.)

if i recall correctly devs said on stream they will be changing pw… which really needs to happen

atm it is just stand there and avoid pw untill thief runs out of ini…. zzzzz

Cynz.9437:

if i recall correctly devs said on stream they will be changing pw… which really needs to happen

atm it is just stand there and avoid pw untill he runs out of ini…. zzzzz

This is very true, coming from someone who was an advocate for S/P to make a comeback for a long time. I feel that, in separating the skill into two, it would lead to more skillful play, such as Stun + Infiltrator’s Strike + Flurry/Evade for maximum hits. That’s only one example, and in reality sword for thief is a very complicated and over-simplified weapon in the minds of the masses. There is no rotation to follow, and it a highly situational set to play.

As a champion illusionist, champion genius and almost champion thief (s/p), all i can say is: s/p thief is one of the funniest builds for a thief in the current meta, not by a longshot the best in tpvp though. Roaming with a d/p will perform much better teamwise, s/d is simply too easy to counter.

It rely on immobilizes, which can be easily removed (no condi removal in your build? in the current meta? seriously..? Well it ain’t a thief op problem then..). The stun on pw lasts for half the duration of the damage part, damage where the thief is rooted. If you don’t plan on stunbreaking that 1/2 sec stun (which can be a good idea, since if the thief knows what to do il will chain something like a devourer venom or a sleight of hand steal), just mash the evade button and you’ll mitigate at least half of the damage of the skill. Provided that your reflexes are slow enough not to avoid the stun at all, which is pretty telegraphed.

Thief has to run glasscannon to do some serious damage with this build, it can chain some decent amount of immobilize/stun/daze and put some serious pressure, but it’s too kitten easy to counter. I won’t even start describing what retaliation does to this build, you can imagine it for yourselves.

S/p has a lot of in-fight mobility due to infiltrator’s strike/return, signet, shadowstep, steal and so on, but: it won’t hold a point captured, it goes down too quickly against burst classes (1-2 stunbreakers in the build usually)

This build is so strong because too much people runs glasscannon in tpvp and doesn’t avoid damage not tries to mitigate it, once i met this staff ele that kept nuking my team on the point while i got to him from behind and killed chaining 4 pw in a row (no immobilizes, no venoms, no daze, he didn’t move and he kept pouring meteors on the point). And then he started complaining on how op thief was (and insulting, “gg noob spam skill” and so on).

Learn to counter classes. Learn to play. That’s pretty much it..

isendel.5049:

As a champion illusionist, champion genius and almost champion thief (s/p), all i can say is: s/p thief is one of the funniest builds for a thief in the current meta, not by a longshot the best in tpvp though. Roaming with a d/p will perform much better teamwise, s/d is simply too easy to counter.

It rely on immobilizes, which can be easily removed (no condi removal in your build? in the current meta? seriously..? Well it ain’t a thief op problem then..). The stun on pw lasts for half the duration of the damage part, damage where the thief is rooted. If you don’t plan on stunbreaking that 1/2 sec stun (which can be a good idea, since if the thief knows what to do il will chain something like a devourer venom or a sleight of hand steal), just mash the evade button and you’ll mitigate at least half of the damage of the skill. Provided that your reflexes are slow enough not to avoid the stun at all, which is pretty telegraphed.

Thief has to run glasscannon to do some serious damage with this build, it can chain some decent amount of immobilize/stun/daze and put some serious pressure, but it’s too kitten easy to counter. I won’t even start describing what retaliation does to this build, you can imagine it for yourselves.

S/p has a lot of in-fight mobility due to infiltrator’s strike/return, signet, shadowstep, steal and so on, but: it won’t hold a point captured, it goes down too quickly against burst classes (1-2 stunbreakers in the build usually)

This build is so strong because too much people runs glasscannon in tpvp and doesn’t avoid damage not tries to mitigate it, once i met this staff ele that kept nuking my team on the point while i got to him from behind and killed chaining 4 pw in a row (no immobilizes, no venoms, no daze, he didn’t move and he kept pouring meteors on the point). And then he started complaining on how op thief was (and insulting, “gg noob spam skill” and so on).

Learn to counter classes. Learn to play. That’s pretty much it..

wow champion illusionist champion genius…thats like saying i am rank 80 in pve
every decent pvp player has almost 4 times the wins you need for such a title

judging from what you wrote i have to say that you obviously dont seem to play tournaments in the high end area and therefore cant judge the meta as it is atm
ofc some thieves in your area might be easy to counter but i tell you..if you face any of the really good teams the pistol whip thief can destroy two or three of your teammates alone

Anyone arguing that thief is not the best roamer, back-capper, uneven-numbered-encounter-creator, role in the game right now is delusional.

Neither mesmer nor ele can compete, ele is especially in need of some love, in my opinion, the approach should be as follows:

Bring Mes up a little bit, but actually give mes a spec that isn’t clone dependent while still viable.

Ele needs a lot of love…

S/P nerfed slightly. I say slightly because if you only make these three changes in isolation, then there really won’t be a great roll for any of these professions. Other changes need to happen as well (Heal Sig, Spirit of Nat, etc.), but what I think would be good for PW is to have it function a bit like backstab, so make the following changes:

1. Daze for 1/2 second when hit from the front
2. Stun for 1/2 second when hit from the side or behind
3. Increase initiative cost by 1

The key issue w/ S/P for me is how little you have to worry about positioning, unlike D/P which requires both stealth and being in the right spot to really tap into its max potential damage, w/ PW all I do is look if I have steal, infil sig or Shdw step off cd, and I can precast pw and then any of those three to hit a node. The main reason I take S/P over D/P is because it saves a lot of time and in conquest, time saving is a priority.

Giving PW some inherent positioning requirements wouldn’t over-nerf it and as long as you simultaneously improve both mes (little bit) and ele (lot bit), I think all three would be in competition for a similar & important role. Just nuking thief might push all three out of the meta.

That being said, there are still some serious issues to address with HS and SoN plus condition spam in general.

If I had my way, power would be the factor that determined base condition damage, not the player’s level and the only auto-attacks with conditions on them would be 3 attack chains (like war sword, thief daggers, etc.), and the conditions would only be applied on the final hit, so for war sword: attack → attack → attack (w/ 2x bleeds and a cripple).

You would then need to look at changing things like SB on ranger to a 3x attack chain as well… kind of a rabbit trail now, so sorry for sliding off topic.

1. Daze for 1/2 second when hit from the front
2. Stun for 1/2 second when hit from the side or behind

Why no but 6 initiative cost is so dumb, S/P thies has only one DMG spell (PW) with less DPS as AA other spec has CaD,Backstab,HS,SH etc

But this will not solve anything =) Many Thiefs start play P/P and you start see many crying topic like a " P/P THIEF IS SO OP NERF ARENANET"

Evilek.5690:

1. Daze for 1/2 second when hit from the front
2. Stun for 1/2 second when hit from the side or behind

Why no but 6 initiative cost is so dumb, S/P thies has only one DMG spell (PW) with less DPS as AA other spec has CaD,Backstab,HS,SH etc

But this will not solve anything =) Many Thiefs start play P/P and you start see many crying topic like a " P/P THIEF IS SO OP NERF ARENANET"

Issue w/ PW isn’t the dmg, which is in a good spot, it’s how well it shuts down opponents while doing that dmg, by making it daze from the front, people can still immediately move out of it, so that you would need to be behind or on the side to reliable get the dmg off, this makes the spec less punishing and increasing the ini cost helps reduce it’s spammability while still keeping it viable, imo.

As for people complaining about P/P specs… i doubt it.

Pixels.6532:

Evilek.5690:

1. Daze for 1/2 second when hit from the front
2. Stun for 1/2 second when hit from the side or behind

Why no but 6 initiative cost is so dumb, S/P thies has only one DMG spell (PW) with less DPS as AA other spec has CaD,Backstab,HS,SH etc

But this will not solve anything =) Many Thiefs start play P/P and you start see many crying topic like a " P/P THIEF IS SO OP NERF ARENANET"

Issue w/ PW isn’t the dmg, which is in a good spot, it’s how well it shuts down opponents while doing that dmg, by making it daze from the front, people can still immediately move out of it, so that you would need to be behind or on the side to reliable get the dmg off, this makes the spec less punishing and increasing the ini cost helps reduce it’s spammability while still keeping it viable, imo.

As for people complaining about P/P specs… i doubt it.

The stun is so short that, even with Sigil of Paralyzation, the thief is only guaranteed two hits. React faster if you’re dying to it because of the stun, or turn off melee assist, and just walk through the thief and avoid his entire next pistol whip as well as the rest of the hits from the last PW.

Viking Jorun.5413:

The stun is so short that, even with Sigil of Paralyzation, the thief is only guaranteed two hits. React faster if you’re dying to it because of the stun, or turn off melee assist, and just walk through the thief and avoid his entire next pistol whip as well as the rest of the hits from the last PW.

I think people are confusing 1v1 vs. the meta game. In a 1v1, with both classes having everything off cd, PW is very strong but probably not OP v. all other classes (not just ele/mes). Where it is a bit OP is in its function within the 5v5, conquest game mode.

It can create out-numbered situations quickly, and it is devastating when it shows up to a 1v1 in process. You can’t walk through a PW w/ a 2-4 sec immobilize on you while your clears are on cd, and the evade up-times during the PW make it even more difficult to counter on lock-down.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Pixels.6532:

Evilek.5690:

1. Daze for 1/2 second when hit from the front
2. Stun for 1/2 second when hit from the side or behind

Why no but 6 initiative cost is so dumb, S/P thies has only one DMG spell (PW) with less DPS as AA other spec has CaD,Backstab,HS,SH etc

But this will not solve anything =) Many Thiefs start play P/P and you start see many crying topic like a " P/P THIEF IS SO OP NERF ARENANET"

Issue w/ PW isn’t the dmg, which is in a good spot, it’s how well it shuts down opponents while doing that dmg, by making it daze from the front, people can still immediately move out of it, so that you would need to be behind or on the side to reliable get the dmg off, this makes the spec less punishing and increasing the ini cost helps reduce it’s spammability while still keeping it viable, imo.

As for people complaining about P/P specs… i doubt it.

The stun is so short that, even with Sigil of Paralyzation, the thief is only guaranteed two hits. React faster if you’re dying to it because of the stun, or turn off melee assist, and just walk through the thief and avoid his entire next pistol whip as well as the rest of the hits from the last PW.

You do not write to me this fact. I know, right.

Actually, you can hit more than twice during daze duration if you have haste (which majority of s/p thieves have)… the problem with pw is not even stun or immob or dmg, it is the fact that you can’t really controll or counter thief during pw spam outside of predicting when he gonna spam and guessing how much ini he has left… Now add to that that pvp is not about 1v1, more like a team fight where you don’t have 100% uptime on condi clean and stun breakers. PW cleave with haste is kittened.

I can reliably counter d/p by preventing bp+ hs, blind them, stun them, AoE if they actually got in stealth, spin around!… all that doesn’t work on pw due to dodge spam and fast attacks + 0 positional requirement.

All this would be a non issue if the devs hadn’t come up with the horrible idea that was initative system.

Initiative is the root of all the god kitten problems with thief

The thing is pistol whip is just the tip of the iceberg. Even if you nerf this (which is critical), then you still have those stupid evade thieves that still just shut down anyone who isn’t a warrior all game.

I agree the heal should be nerfed to have a longer cast time. And make so sword 2 doesnt teleport out of the LOS because that is some lame kitten when they set up their sword 2 out of LOS and just get porting in and out to kill you. Brainless and lame.

Did somebody actually put “rapidly evolving” and “thief meta” in the same sentence?

But again I say that the problem are the teleports. Opponent blinks? Step to them. Opponent knocks you away? Step to them. Opponents puts down a wall? Step to them. Opponent cripple/chills you? Step to them.

There is of course a slight nod to lyssa runes allowing you to ignore condi bursts while preparing stun. Interrupts and dodges at least have a factor of skill on both sides of the table and can be played around with clever timing.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Please don’t insult my knowledge of the meta if you don’t read my post thoroughly enough to give a valid and well-thought answer explaining the details of why I’m wrong and you’re right, and your credentials for your authority on the matter. You must SoloQ a lot, where the meta is nowhere close to the TeamQ meta. I know exactly what the thief meta is, and you too can find this constantly updated thread explaining the rapidly evolving thief meta: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guide-to-Thief-Guides/first

(D/P trickery is still the meta; thanks, troll. Toker’s build has never been a viable format in Team tournaments.)

You kinda lost all credibility with this post of yours, just FYI.

Reikou.7068:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Please don’t insult my knowledge of the meta if you don’t read my post thoroughly enough to give a valid and well-thought answer explaining the details of why I’m wrong and you’re right, and your credentials for your authority on the matter. You must SoloQ a lot, where the meta is nowhere close to the TeamQ meta. I know exactly what the thief meta is, and you too can find this constantly updated thread explaining the rapidly evolving thief meta: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guide-to-Thief-Guides/first

(D/P trickery is still the meta; thanks, troll. Toker’s build has never been a viable format in Team tournaments.)

You kinda lost all credibility with this post of yours, just FYI.

Yet you keep replying to my posts without any counter argument and only state your opinions as facts without explanation. If anything, I shouldn’t be taking a word you say seriously due to your lack of an educated response.

1/2 sec daze and evade in the beginning.
Balanced?