Guild Wars 2

You have the technology available to allow all players to spectate team queue games in action.

This technology has been given to your “authorised shoutcasters” who do NOTHING to use this great perk either to promote the game or even to watch matches.

I think it is time to realise the authorised shoutcaster program is a complete failure in terms of delivering what you wanted. I am sure the aim was to give people the ability to spectate and stream games and shoutcast them to help promote the game. This doesn’t happen ever, and either way it would be preferable to just let everyone spectate games. Nothing against the shoutcasters, they do a great job for the community and are all really good at what they do now. But there is no use of the feature they are given to spectate tournament games (which I presume hasn’t been removed?? If it has this whole post is mis-informed so sorry).

This would give:
1, More interest in PvP
2, A way for players to learn and become “hardcore” pvpers
3, Alot of fun for all concerned
4, A reason for people to log in
5, A reason for people not to log out whilst waiting for a 4th/5th person to queue with (i.e. something to do whilst waiting)
6, This was possible in GW1

So please enable this for everyone unless they are network/server considerations which stop this happening (which I can’t see would be an issue).

Anet have some of the best coders of any game. I wish the great features they designed were actually applied better by the designers and provided to the playerbase. For example, the standard character models is amazing.

It would also be a great opportunity to wait for your own match.

want

/15chars.....

Sometimes shoutcasters spectate our matches when they are bored. :<

They need to make the server size limit way bigger though, else only 10 people can watch a game at the time…

100% AGREE

even if the limit is 10 spectators per match it’s already fine! That’s better than 0

Yiss. 20 gold for the dev who implements this first.

^Sven, you’re meant to be working. Get back to it.

in before anet says people could exploit ranked games:

ther are no ladder rewards → no one cares about ladder → no one would cheat

The problem with this is that people could just hop on VOIP with a team and let them know exactly what the other team is doing.

They should have a special NPC in the mist that collects 10 silver to enter the spectate room for rated team arena matches =]

Or just the option to spectate games with a 2 minute delay or so. That might work.

kirito.4138:

They should have a special NPC in the mist that collects 10 silver to enter the spectate room for rated team arena matches =]

This game needs more gold sinks anyways, but make sure to add a delay of the match so there would be no cheating. And not just high rated games, but all ranked games imo would be great; so friends can help coach each other and such.

Without putting a delay, i don’t think is possible.

Btw it is really better to watch the game in spectator mode instead of twitch.

+1 anyway.

Lordrosicky.5813:

You have the technology available to allow all players to spectate team queue games in action.

This technology has been given to your “authorised shoutcasters” who do NOTHING to use this great perk either to promote the game or even to watch matches.

I think it is time to realise the authorised shoutcaster program is a complete failure in terms of delivering what you wanted. I am sure the aim was to give people the ability to spectate and stream games and shoutcast them to help promote the game. This doesn’t happen ever, and either way it would be preferable to just let everyone spectate games. Nothing against the shoutcasters, they do a great job for the community and are all really good at what they do now. But there is no use of the feature they are given to spectate tournament games (which I presume hasn’t been removed?? If it has this whole post is mis-informed so sorry).

This would give:
1, More interest in PvP
2, A way for players to learn and become “hardcore” pvpers
3, Alot of fun for all concerned
4, A reason for people to log in
5, A reason for people not to log out whilst waiting for a 4th/5th person to queue with (i.e. something to do whilst waiting)
6, This was possible in GW1

So please enable this for everyone unless they are network/server considerations which stop this happening (which I can’t see would be an issue).

Anet have some of the best coders of any game. I wish the great features they designed were actually applied better by the designers and provided to the playerbase. For example, the standard character models is amazing.

Maybe ppl would stop running dps rangers and PU mesmers….at least…

….and i would have something to do while lagging like kitten too xD

+1

Sounds good!
Maybe do it like in GW1 HA, that people can ‘rewatch’ the matches in a limited period of time. I dont like the realtime-streams cause of match manipulation.

+1

MarkPhilips.5169:

Without putting a delay, i don’t think is possible.

Btw it is really better to watch the game in spectator mode instead of twitch.

+1 anyway.

Actually in gw1 matches are aviable to spectate after they ended….so also teams who were in can analize what they did and what went wrong..and all of this YEARS ago without twitch and stuff…

But ofc devs there had brains…not just caring bout pve heroes and gems..

The possibility to watch a tpvp game would be a huge step back in terms of competetivness.
But i would love to spectate high tier soloq matches.

Even doing this live would require many more changes to the existing system, along with being exploitable. Doing this with a delay or after the fact would require an entirely new system to be put in place. Not matter what way you look at it, adding this would be a lot of work. I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. In fact, I’m all for it. However, be honest with yourself about what you’re asking them to do, and keep in mind the other objectives and size of the team you’re asking it of.

Evidently they can’t introduce a delay as they did in GW1’s spectate (was a 5 min delay, also they would save matches and you could watch them at a later time, sorely lacking in GW2) due to using something called Havoc?

Anyways without a delay there will be no spectating competitive matches.

GOSU.9574:

Evidently they can’t introduce a delay as they did in GW1’s spectate (was a 5 min delay, also they would save matches and you could watch them at a later time, sorely lacking in GW2) due to using something called Havoc?

We need this again.

tichorum.2415:

The problem with this is that people could just hop on VOIP with a team and let them know exactly what the other team is doing.

I think there is already a delay (not sure) for authorised shoutcasters.

they can’t because of some technical limitations as far as i recall

only so many people fit on one map server :/

There is no delay for authorized shoutcasters. If they are spectating your matches, they can literally talk to you in map chat as they observe in real time. If you watch them stream one, there is a delay because of the stream, not in game.

Lordrosicky.5813:

tichorum.2415:

The problem with this is that people could just hop on VOIP with a team and let them know exactly what the other team is doing.

I think there is already a delay (not sure) for authorised shoutcasters.

I looked it up. You’re right.

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

There is no delay for authorized shoutcasters. If they are spectating your matches, they can literally talk to you in map chat as they observe in real time. If you watch them stream one, there is a delay because of the stream, not in game.

Correct, It’s just like normal spectating. Grouch often drops in and watches our matches from time to time, yells a few things at us, tells me I have bad manners, and then leaves.

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

There is no delay for authorized shoutcasters. If they are spectating your matches, they can literally talk to you in map chat as they observe in real time. If you watch them stream one, there is a delay because of the stream, not in game.

I thought the chat and the viewing is not in sync though. They can chat to you but I thought they are still observing on a delay?

No delay, it’s like spectating in custom arena.

Hey guys, I want to give some insight from someone who has access to this as to why a lot of people in the ASP stopped using this system on streams and for YouTube in general.

First of all, OP has a good point. Yes, I, and everyone else in the ASP, should be using it to stream and record matches for upload. And I would love to go back to doing this, however there was always a large amount of insecurity and general anger from a lot of the teams on both NA and EU when we watched them and recorded the games for upload. The reasons for this varied from teams not wanting their strats given away to new teams that didn’t want to be watched in general. Regardless of if their concerns were legitimate or not, there is always a bit of an issue when your strat is given away on a stream with 80+ viewers and constantly has some high profile names viewing it! which could potentially make that team weaker in an upcoming event.

With these issues in mind, I was ultimately left with a choice. I could continue doing the casts and becomes hated by a large portion of teams in the game for giving away their strats on stream (granted this was quite a while ago that I ultimately stopped doing them publicly so things may have changed since then, but with 150,000 USD looming I doubt it.), or I could just stop using it and try to produce more educational content like I try to do now. Ultimately I chose the second out of a respect for the teams in the game and a hate for childish drama being created. A lot of the other casters shared my pattern of thought and decision making, and this is why we have the general uselessness of the Notifier that we do now.

Some people may wonder “why didn’t you ask the teams if they were okay with it?” And I would have to answer with: “I usually did for the most part, but it got to a point where most teams would outright say no, and the exercise became somewhat pointless.”

The issues stated above along with many others are why I can say with solid certainty that the system would probably not be made public. The additional issues of ghosting on teamspeaks, and the server cap of 20 people per arena only make this system more controversial, if not impossible to make public.

A correct solution to this would be replays, then these casts could be created and streamed ala HuskyStarcraft or Day9, but unfortunately in a game that has three navigational axes versus two (GW2 vs Starcraft/league) the implementation of such a system would be much harder for the devs. The argument we see so often that states “but guild wars 1 had it” often forgets guild wars 2 is using a completely new engine with minimal, if any parts of the old engine. An above post said Havoc physics engine made it impossible for replays to be added, but halo 3 and reach have replays, and to my knowledge they both use a version of the Havoc physics engine. Replays are definitely a possibility in the future, but when you consider this game is still missing crucial components like a ladder system, I personally think it will be awhile before we see it.

So then how do we fix this issue, because it is still important. Content creation, especially in a game with competitive aspirations, is a crucial part of the growth of the scene as it gives educational material to new and growing players. I am all up for using it again, but I fear with WTS on the horizon, the scrutiny I came under originally would only repeat itself. But I’m up for trying it, so with the closing of this post I want to ask one question to those that consider themselves in the range of the spectator tool and one question to everyone.

• To anyone in the range of the tool, would you mind your team being spectated, recorded, and possibly uploaded to YouTube outside of a tournament? This would occur at random times, and your entire team including build, splits, etc would be viewable. If you are on a team, also please tell me which team you are a part of.

• To everyone, assuming the worst case scenario, what type of content would you like to see to replace these casts until a proper replay system can be added?

Let’s say not spectate maybe, but watch replays, just like it was in GW1.

It is very sad that teams are against being streamed. But given the general childishness and sadness of the top teams on na/eu I am not surprised.

If they want to do tactics/builds which are new and unknown (LOL @ that btw, nobody invents builds in this game because the options are so minimal) then they should go to custom arena and find other lamers to “scrim” against.

At the end of the day, part of team queue involves the possibility of being streamed/viewed. This is a public and well-known fact. So if they team queue and lose a surprise element for an upcoming tournament then tough kitten for them to be perfectly honest. They should of gone and scrim in a custom arena.

Team queue streaming is way more entertaining than an ESL stream because the games are matchmaked and therefore generally much closer. In addition, the 30m downtimes between each match are unlikely to happen.

As I said this wasn’t a critisism at the shoutcasters, who imo all act maturally and have all got decent to very good at their role by now. And they do it for nothing which is generally just awesome of them.

But I do think this thing, as blu said, of streaming team queue matches could be hugely important for the game to grow.

My advice to shoutcasters: just stream the games and dont care what the teams think. It is their fault if they get streamed at the end of the day, totally their fault. They know the feature is there and can scrim if they want privacy. If I was a shoutcaster I would stream all these teams and if they complained to me I would tell them this.

Listen to henry.

Television decides the rules, team needs to adapt.

This is how it works.

I agree with Henry.

I ve been tons of time in a ladder game where some ASP user was in , and never seen someone streaming or uploading the vods.(well in fact once they did it )
The main issue with ASP users is that msot of them cant really strteam games , due to bad inet , or cant upload a lot of vods for same reasons .
Tbh casting a ladder match on the fly isnt that hard , and im sure many ppl would like to see it .

@blu
Think I might like to get on the program then

Agree with Henry; the split and build variations aren’t enough to justify not casting games.

I can list the players who will complain, and it doesn’t matter… they’re just angry people.

that would be simply the best feature since launch.

ASP members should stream games no matter what the teams say. If the teams are playing teamqueue they are already showing their secret stuff to their opponents so it’s not a secret anymore…

If they want to keep their tactics secrets (roflmao) they should play in custom arenas as lordsoricky said.

So, to make it fair games from most well known teams should be casted (because if you only cast one team for example they will actually have a disadvantage).

However, I do think that the builds from the players shouldn’t be shown.

IMO it would also drastically improve the playerbase, people could watch how top players play, what kind of decisions are they making in a given situation, how to rotate, and in general how to play a build.

Marcos.3690:

ASP members should stream games no matter what the teams say. If the teams are playing teamqueue they are already showing their secret stuff to their opponents so it’s not a secret anymore…

If they want to keep their tactics secrets (roflmao) they should play in custom arenas as lordsoricky said.

So, to make it fair games from most well known teams should be casted (because if you only cast one team for example they will actually have a disadvantage).

However, I do think that the builds from the players shouldn’t be shown.

Builds should be shown too. It is not like there is anything revolutionary in this game ever.

But as you said. Games should be streamed. And if the current shoutcasters won’t do it then anet should widen their net and find people who are prepared to stream these games. Otherwise it is just more developer time wasted on features which aren’t used at all.

@Blu dang bro im so sorry that you even had to go through all that drama to promote a game. Those “pro” teams are not very pro if they don’t understand the importance or difference between a public practice session and a private one. Every pro sport has a form of open practice where media is allowed for a day or a for a few hours to watch and record the practice. They do this to increase fan base for the sport or for the team itself. You hold private practice to really work on your tactics and improve your game, you hold public practice to promote the sport and your team (not running full builds or true tactics just a glimpse of how “pros” practice more of a learning opportunity for new players and free advertisement for more experienced players) . They were given such a huge opportunity and they threw it away because they are shortsighted rather then looking at the bigger picture imho.

Zoso.8279:

@Blu dang bro im so sorry that you even had to go through all that drama to promote a game. Those “pro” teams are not very pro if they don’t understand the importance or difference between a public practice session and a private one. Every pro sport has a form of open practice where media is allowed for a day or a for a few hours to watch and record the practice. They do this to increase fan base for the sport or for the team itself. You hold private practice to really work on your tactics and improve your game, you hold public practice to promote the sport and your team (not running full builds or true tactics just a glimpse of how “pros” practice more of a learning opportunity for new players and free advertisement for more experienced players) . They were given such a huge opportunity and they threw it away because they are shortsighted rather then looking at the bigger picture imho.

When blu would initially stream these matches, he would politely ask members of both teams if someone had an objection to their build being showed on stream. Obviously I feel for blu when some teams are infamous for running the same strategy over and over (withholding team names), since it gives some other teams a slight advantage if you know the team you’re facing runs the same initial split over and over. Without knowing how far the automated shoutcaster program extends to, I assume it is just top 50-100 pugs that get pinged alot, so you have a situation when a team tries to play seriously and you shoutcast it, and give some teams an advantage in a bracket that you know you will face them in. (you essentially get an edge over a known team running a different style of split in order to counter comp them in a major tourny).

p.s (then again, this is guildwars2 where skill is a underlying factor in most matches, you either outplay someone or just outcomp them in small skirmishes /toomuchskill)

By Everyone do you mean the few who actually still play ? allthough its not a bad idea ide sooner watch , whilst waitin in da queue

Lordrosicky.5813:

It is very sad that teams are against being streamed. But given the general childishness and sadness of the top teams on na/eu I am not surprised.

There are also teams in esl changing traits and even amulets right after the spec overview, that’s why best thing to do would be looking at specs at the end or during the match and not minutes before starting…

With a delay and separate map chat for spectators this would be really entertaining.

Blu, I feel that EVERYONE should be able to spectate high tier matches, and because they can’t, that falls on the job of the Authorized shoutcasters. People might get kitten, but lets be real, over what? Running cheese? No one really does that at high tier pvp, and even if they did, its cheese, it shouldn’t be promoted. They don’t want the world to see them lose sometimes? Oh lawdie, anything but that. The community needs to grow and evolve, and ASC have the ability to force that change.

Secondly, the game would get elevated to another level if we had someone actively, and with an unbiased hand streaming these matches each night. I feel like they need to open up the table for new players who wish to have ASC privileges again.

I feel everyone would benefit from the ASC system being used, we all asked for it, and we got it, and then people got cold feet and scared. Let skill determine the victor, not petty fear and cheesy strats.

I would be fine with you spectating, and sharing our builds etc with the world, I just don’t want us to be the only team, it needs to be a motion applied evenly across all top teams.

Observe Mode was one of the biggest PvP community builders there was in GW1, you would all jump on to watch KMD vs rawr together and everyone would get involved chatting and it opened up lines of communication between the player base.

This was one of the first things all my old guildies from GW1 [StP] wanted when we moved over – sadly I’m the only one left. If the technology isn’t there to provide it then we are all going to miss out on something really enriching to the PvP game.

To the point of Authorised Spectators not recording because of requests from top teams, you need to just ignore it. If every ASC does it – preferably with the backing of ANet – then it just becomes the norm and people get used to it. You may get some QQ and boycotting teamq BUT you then start broadcasting the next ones down the list, it won’t take long til new people become “the ones to watch” (literally) and I’d imagine the egos of those who demand not being observed will force them out of the shadows. People will complain if they think that they are at a disadvantage so you MUST do it to everyone above a certain bracket (GW1 was top 100 GvG).

This is something, BLU, you and your ilk can do NOW, positively impacting the game and on the cheap for ANet. If you want the higher PvP game to involve more people you need to give them something to sink their teeth into and inspire them to play. Not everyone streams or has a computer that can do it with the game running and its quite a thrill when your matches are put up – its something to work towards that will give some progression to the PvP game (getting into the Obs bracket).

If you want to make a difference the option is there for you, I hope if the tech is available ANet can follow it with a true Obs Mode but for now its in your hands and worth a try.

(To any nay sayers GW1 had a faaaaar more complex setup with team builds and strategies – if the top teams there coped with Obs Mode and people seeing their strat then people here can too – yes I know they smurfed when they wanted to hide something but I’d imagine the option is there for custom arenas to provide the same cloak if needed)

Lordrosicky.5813:

This technology has been given to your “authorised shoutcasters” who do NOTHING to use this great perk either to promote the game or even to watch matches.

Hey,

i’m german Caster and on EU, we spectate a lot of Games. I watch ~7-10 Games per day, to learn Builds, to see the Teams, to learn Account-Names and to talk to PvP-Player.

You can ask Teams like 55 HP, Lunch Box, Cheese Mode, Made in Meta, PBJT, they always talk to me in Map-Chat. Some Teams dont like spectating, so i dont say “Hello” in every Match.

And i am not the only one on EU. ChroNick, the other german caster, spectates more matches than me, Waffle from France is often spectating with me together and we talk about the matches in the Team-Chat.

The other problem is, that you cant stream the Top-Teams. Most of them dont want to get streamed, cause you should not show their strategies to the public. So we have ~4-6 Games per hour to spectate, in four or five of them we are not allowed to cast. You can imagine how boring a stream would be with only 1 Game per hour. So most of the Teams are the reason why we cant cast it, but we still use it to learn something from them.

Please dont say, that shoutcaster dont use this tool, cause you cant see, if Casters are in your Match.

Love you Sputti. Waffle and ChroNick do often watch as well. One idea is to just ask at the beginning of a match in map chat if it’s ok to stream a game, especially when we’re pugging, it’s fine to stream it. Just ask, and I think very frequently we’ll say yes.

Hey all,

Just a quick word on this from me as I am also authorised.

We dont all always say something in map chat when we watch a game. More often than not its off putting for the players and can bring a pressurising element into the game itself that we spectate.

As a few have mentioned, we ask first about streaming because:

1, Its polite

2, Teams may want to keep builds, rotations & tactics secret from other players for tournies. We are now involved in tournies with 50k up for grabs, not sure Id want my opponents watching us daily knowing everything about our comp.

3, Teams may consist of a super pug or some well known players that don’t feel the team represents them truly in a stream. They could just be having fun and want to chill without that extra pressure.

I had a show called queue cast which I ran a few nights over a few weeks, about 75% of the teams wished not to be streamed. That’s their choice & from what Blu said above which I agree with, we would alienate ourselves from the top end teams which would be counter productive to what we do as shout casters.

We have a ton of respect for our GW2 spvpers, I think personally speaking Id always ask rather than ninja stream a team.

Also one more thing to add, a question more.

If you could spectate the games and see everything, would you also watch the twitch stream?

Thanks & much respect to the forum thread being started its a good thing to discuss and also for us to give feedback on.

Jebro

Ovid.7135:

Love you Sputti. Waffle and ChroNick do often watch as well. One idea is to just ask at the beginning of a match in map chat if it’s ok to stream a game, especially when we’re pugging, it’s fine to stream it. Just ask, and I think very frequently we’ll say yes.

Swiss <3

I know its okey for you guys, but what happens, when the other team says no? we have a stream running, 100 or more people waiting, and we cant do anything, cause the other team dont want to get streamed. So maybe we have a good evening and stream a lot, but maybe we have a stream with 2 hours and only one game. Its a risk and waiting kills viewer :P