Guild Wars 2

Justin ODell.9517:

1. Yes, this is somewhat of a pivot on our part, but I believe we are still holding true to our philosophy because this is a horizontal progression system. Every player is still equal in potential power as it is only the range of choice that is variable between players.

You can spin this any way you like (when you see “pivot” you know it’s spin)

…but it doesn’t matter whether you call it horizontal or vertical progression. If new players start out kitten relative to veteran players, then you are violating your former philosophy of level playing field for all.

Justin…why are there no unlocks through pvp content. Why is it always a one way street in favor of pve?

Justin ODell.9517:

2. I disagree, but I do believe I understand where you are coming from. You have to understand that different people have different values and that we can’t cater to everyone, though we certainly try to do the best job we can.

ANet already catered to the people who wants progression in PvP, and it has been there since launch. It is called WvW. I don’t like the progression in WvW, so I rather go into sPvP instead.

Please let sPvP be catered to people who gets everything right from the start and keep the horizontal/vertical/diagonal/linear/branching/etc progression in WvW. Let sPvP progression be about cosmetic items that doesn’t affect combat in any way.

Justin ODell.9517:

As I understand it though, we try to tune the price by the time it takes, so that paying in gold takes just as long as obtaining it through PvE.

The sweet spot is in the margin of matches won/lost. If it takes an hour or less to earn in pve than to have it take an hour or less would be in three to six unranked matches played. All 40 traits should not cost more than 40 gold or even less from this in mind.

Justin ODell.9517:

Pyriall.5027:

Justin…why are there no unlocks through pvp content. Why is it always a one way street in favor of pve?

I’m all for that idea! Traits or what-have-you being only unlockable through PvP (or through coins) sounds like a great idea. Will have to mention it to the Skills and Combat team.

Do you guys honestly not think of stuff like that on your own or do you just agree to please people?

Justin ODell.9517:

I’m all for that idea! Traits or what-have-you being only unlockable through PvP (or through coins) sounds like a great idea. Will have to mention it to the Skills and Combat team.

Who will rightly tell you that this little mini-game represents a miniscule amount of GW2 player interest and is not going to be the starting point for a riot.

Justin I really don’t think we should require much time (more than a couple of days) to have access to all 40 traits in spvp. Players capable of managing three GM traits per tree should have the freedom to build what they want…

I… I think that it’s easier to understand women than it is to understand Anet.

Justin ODell.9517:

runeblade.7514:

ANet already catered to the people who wants progression in PvP, and it has been there since launch. It is called WvW. I don’t like the progression in WvW, so I rather go into sPvP instead.

A few things:
1) WvW has both vertical and horizontal progression. sPvP will never have much of what you see in WvW, that just isn’t our target at all because it just doesn’t work for sPvP.
2) WvW isn’t there to cater to those that want a sense progression and attainment, (the whole game serves that purpose,) it’s there for those players that love grand-scale combat with large groups.
3) I hope the changes we’re introducing don’t make sPvP unenjoyable for you, but please keep in mind we have to consider a wide range of preferences and play styles.

1. If there isn’t going to be any meaningful progression, why bother having progression at all? WvW progression horizontal and vertical progression is at least meaningful. sPvP healing skill unlock did not feel meaningful to me in any way. I didn’t feel like I was taught anything. It was more annoying than exciting even after unlocking all 8 in sPvP. I will feel the same for trait unlocks.

2. There are a ton of ways to play WvW, it doesn’t mean only zerging around. There are small group roaming, and soloing. I sometime find that fun.
2b. If ANet did not balance progression in WvW, then I rather that ANet make balancing progression to WvW a goal than into sPvP. WvW has a ton of potential for long-term progression and balancing it right to cater for those that want progression in PvP. The PvE gear is right there.

3. Balancing progression in WvW is the best solution to cater to the wide range of preferences and playstyle that you want as a goal. It doesn’t hurt my sPvP playstyle, and if I wanted to have a sense of progression, WvW is the choice for me. I get the ability to choose how I want to play. Instead of being forced onto me no matter what I play.

Can you explain the reason for these unlocks to be character bound rather than account bound for PVP? In PVE I can understand but PVP I just can’t think of why you’d do it that way.

Justin can you please explain what exactly is the point of having those unlockable traits?

Why is it so important to have that? Why do you think it is so necessary for the game?

Rezz.8019:

Justin can you please explain what exactly is the point of having those unlockable traits?

Why is it so important to have that? Why do you think it is so necessary for the game?

• To ease player into sPvP
• Progression

runeblade.7514:

Rezz.8019:

Justin can you please explain what exactly is the point of having those unlockable traits?

Why is it so important to have that? Why do you think it is so necessary for the game?

• To ease player into sPvP
• Progression

How exactly?

Rezz.8019:

runeblade.7514:

Rezz.8019:

Justin can you please explain what exactly is the point of having those unlockable traits?

Why is it so important to have that? Why do you think it is so necessary for the game?

• To ease player into sPvP
• Progression

How exactly?

I don’t even know. That is what they said.

Please stop saying that having access to certain traits that other people don’t isn’t an advantage. It’s borderline delusional. There will always be stronger builds than others for certain builds/comps, and you adding variation to build possibilities doesn’t take away from that. I see plenty of these grandmaster traits that could have builds completely designed around them, and some of them will be vastly superior to the other options people have.

Justin ODell.9517:

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different

There is no such thing as “horizontal progression” in any competitive environment. The very notion of such a concept is fundamentally naive.

Any complex system with so many interlocking mechanics will always have “better” or “best” options. Either they’re more powerful in terms of raw numbers, they’re more useful in a wider array of situations, they’re more tolerant of sloppy mechanical play, or some combination of all three.

I’m not having a dig at ArenaNet or their design and balance team here. I know they’re working hard to balance things as best they can. However, they’re not perfect and there’ll always be something that’s fundamentally better than the alternatives.

Bearing that in mind, is it really a good idea to be gating potentially overpowered combinations of skills and traits behind an unlock system which prevents all players from accessing those abilities?

One of the fundamental pillars of the original game design was that every player, new or old, had access to everything they needed to be on an equal footing with veteran players. Quite simply, there was no power progression. You got better at sPvP by playing it, experimenting with builds, and by learning the game.

Now, not so much..

With this new system of unlocked abilities that particular strength of the game is going to disappear. Casual players who jump on once or twice a week for a few games aren’t going to have access to what more regular players do and they’re going to resent it.

Even if those locked abilities are perfectly balanced, they’ll be perceived as being more powerful because they’re being utilized by more advanced players in more advanced builds. For a lot of players, being dominated over and over by a player with abilities you don’t have (and can’t realistically expect to have any time soon) is demoralizing.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this increased “barrier to entry” drove away many of the casual players completely. Even if it doesn’t, I expect a lot of them to become fairly bitter about being beaten by “op vet builds” or the like.

Whatever the case, it’s not a good outcome.

I understand the idea behind wanting to add a progression system: ArenaNet want to ease new players into the mechanics, to give existing players more of an incentive to play the game, and to allow for new and interesting combinations for veterans, but this is not the way to implement it.

Aesthetics I can understand. New armour and new weapons are fine. Even new effects on existing abilities I can understand. But gating abilities based on skill- and/or play-time? That a seriously questionable design decision.

If you were waiting for someone to say it, I will be quitting the game unless/until these traits are made easy to obtain in pvp. I do not pve and I do not intend to, it has nothing to offer competitive players and wasn’t the game I thought I was buying.

Justin ODell.9517:

Rezz.8019:

Justin can you please explain what exactly is the point of having those unlockable traits?

Why is it so important to have that? Why do you think it is so necessary for the game?

I’m sure the designers have lots of reasons why they took this approach over others. They have to factor in other game modes, impact on the economy, new player experience, and more.

Personally, I like setting goals and working toward them. The rush of excitement when I finally reach a goal is one of the things that drives me, not just in game but in real-life as well.

So this sort of progression really gels with me. This one system (traits) by itself probably wouldn’t be enough to satiate players like myself, but when taken as part of the broader whole, its just what I’d like to see.

I understand not everyone feels this way, and I truly hope that it isn’t so much an inconvenience to those players. That said, I’m really glad they put something in for people like me.

Personally, I don’t care much about this. I’ll have all those traits unlocked within the first day.
I know that there are plans to release more traits in the future and all that. But I just find it so pointless to have them locked at first. There is really no benefit in that, at least not the way it is now. Anyway, that’s just how I see it.

BeardRex.6739:

Where were all you people who don’t want horizontal progression in sPvP when everyone else was asking for it?

Playing sPvP. :P

I don’t have a strong opinion (yet) but I’m cautiously concerned. The red flag for me is the core change in mechanics. I really enjoyed sPvP the way it was. I almost never read the sPvP forums or posted in them because it has always lived up to my expectations! My biggest beef with it has always been not being able to queue as a duo, and not being able to easily stay on the same team doing multiple matches after joining a friend in sPvP. I understand why it is the way it is, but I play often in a duo, and being able to do this would be something I’d really like.

Besides that, sPvP has been a great alternative way to play when I haven’t been in the mood for PvE. I like trying different builds, I liked the addition of getting coin as a reward, I often do my dailies in sPvP, and I thought it was nice when the latest LS bags were added to tournament wins. Being able to get different looks, and gaining ranks for new finishers, was reward enough for me, besides the fact that it was fun.

I only started reading the sPvP topics when the removal of glory was announced, because I don’t want sPvP to change too much. Obviously if no one plays it, it’s not fun anymore, so if it’s really “dying” I understand that changes need to be done to make it more attractive to people. But being a fan of sPvP I don’t really want what makes it unique to be changed drastically.

Personally, I think that the unlocks in sPvP seem a little odd. I would think that special cosmetic effects, special armor skins, special dyes, more maps, maybe even sPvP legendary weapons with unique looks, might be a better way to introduce horizontal progression to this area of GW2. I like the idea of some crossover – getting gold, maybe a skin closet, maybe a reward that’s hard to get where your sPvP look can be used in PvE, more titles and achievements…but it doesn’t need to work exactly the way it does in PvE.

I’ll reserve ultimate judgment until I get in and try it, but the idea of trait unlocks does seem to conflict with the original spirit of sPvP.

Justin ODell.9517:

I disagree because your argument seems to be that, essentially, that since perfection is impossible we shouldn’t even try.

That wasn’t really what I was trying to convey. My point was more that regardless of how things are balanced, newer/casual players are going to be at a disadvantage because they lack options. If it turns out that one of the locked abilities is even more vital to the “meta”, then they’ll be even further from playing on a level field.

That in itself is not going to be fun for them (getting stomped rarely is) and it’s not going to be healthy for the community (which will hemorrhage players).

Personally, I’ve got a bunch of friends who I can only convince to play sPvP maybe once a week for a few games. The bulk of them aren’t great players by any stretch, but they enjoy jumping on for a while and having some fun, win or lose.

Many of those players are running sub-optimal or niche builds — the sorts of builds that lead to them getting stomped over and over by more experienced players. I hear a lot of “that shout warrior’s so cheap” and “oh gawd another minion master so lame” and so on, while playing with them.

However, they at least have the option to view their opponent’s build and adopt it themselves and see if it’s really as “skill-less” and “cheap” as they’ve been complaining it is. A couple of them have done this on more than one occasion and in some cases have come to see that the build they’ve been complaining about actually requires a degree of mechanical play that they’re not able to match (and no, it wasn’t with a minion master build \=) ).

In at least two of these cases this has caused otherwise casual, once-a-week players to play every day, adopting a build permanently in order to “master it” and “be a pvp kitten”. This won’t be an option for them with an unlock system.

Instead of focusing on mastering the mechanics of the game, they’ll instead be forced into some kind of unlock hunt. Most of them are going to realize this and simply stop before they even begin.

It’s one thing to go around questing and getting achievements in the PvE game. That’s half of what that gameplay entails. It’s an entirely different thing to have to do it in sPvP.

Justin ODell.9517:

Yes, high level players will find the best combinations. They already do, and have this advantage over new players. It’s one of the skills they’ve learned that makes them so effective.

The problem isn’t so much that high level players can find the “best” combinations but that other players who don’t have access to the required traits and skills can’t copy those combinations themselves. Until the unlock the abilities they simply cannot compete at the same level.

I’m haven’t played much Call Of Duty but I understand that they have a mechanic which allows you to copy the build of the person who last killed you. From interviews with the designer I’ve read, they implied that they were basically forced to add this mechanic to prevent new players from feeling like they were getting the short end of the stick and quitting before making any real progress.

I know the two games aren’t the same, but any sort of progression system which restricts access to abilities is going to run into similar problems. Sure, it’s not going to bother a lot of players who will just grin and bear it until they’ve unlocked the necessary traits, but others… Others are going to choose to spend their time doing something else — and that means less players and less interest in sPvP as a whole.

Justin ODell.9517:

I don’t know what the outcome will be, but my intuition is that this will help. That said, we’re not so married to this idea that we wouldn’t change it if it wasn’t working. That is one of the things I love most about this company, we’re willing to shake things up to continually try to improve.

I appreciate this. I know you guys are doing your best. I know you’re trying to make a better game and a better game experience. I just can’t see how gating access to abilities and skewing the playing field to veterans (who already have all the advantages) works towards this.

runeblade.7514:

Justin ODell.9517:

2. I disagree, but I do believe I understand where you are coming from. You have to understand that different people have different values and that we can’t cater to everyone, though we certainly try to do the best job we can.

ANet already catered to the people who wants progression in PvP, and it has been there since launch. It is called WvW. I don’t like the progression in WvW, so I rather go into sPvP instead.

Please let sPvP be catered to people who gets everything right from the start and keep the horizontal/vertical/diagonal/linear/branching/etc progression in WvW. Let sPvP progression be about cosmetic items that doesn’t affect combat in any way.

The funny thing is that WvW players didn’t want WXP and knew it would hurt the game mode. It was, and still is a horrible mistake. Character-bound WXP even more so. Looks like Anet is making the exact same mistake with sPvP.

Justin ODell.9517:

The distinction between horizontal and vertical here is critical and I believe some people misunderstand it. When we say the progression is horizontal what we are really saying is that we will give our best attempt to balance things so they are approximately equal.

Yes we have and will make mistakes, but we will also try to correct those mistakes. I know people don’t like the current rate of balance changes, and we hear you, but that is another issue entirely.

Might it be considered that the difference between horizontal and vertical progression is not the core issue here, but rather, progression mechanics interfering with gameplay versus progression mechanics that do not? Arguments have been circling around the vertical vs. horizontal issue, but I think they are buzzwords that miss the point.

Yes, the implementation of unlockable skills and traits is not vertical progression. It doesn’t inherently grant increased power to players who go through the effort of unlocking them. Vertical progression does not have a place in PvP and it is being avoided, in favor of horizontal progression, and that is good.

Unfortunately, the horizontal progression being implemented is not the kind that was expected, and as you can see by this thread, not the kind that players are in favor of. This isn’t necessarily because it is being perceived as vertical progression – despite the arguments being made – but because it is a source of interference with gameplay. The issue is that skills and traits are being locked away at all, not misconceptions that having them unlocked will make certain players better than others. The original stated intent for PvP was a level, all-access playing field for everyone, which was good. It is one the reasons PvP in this game was warmly received to begin with.

There are numerous ways to further develop horizontal progression for PvP that do not interfere with gameplay. We don’t know what is coming in terms of reward systems, but there is great potential there. Cosmetics were the original progression for PvP players, and while the system which was (and/or still is) implemented wasn’t the best, it would be a place to look for improvement. Skins that can only be unlocked in PvP would be great. PvP legendaries? An awesome goal to work towards.

There’s achievements. Currently PvP achievements are pretty lackluster. Why not extend the Champion titles for tournament wins? Make them upgrade with additional levels, like title tracks in the original Guild Wars? When the achievement system was updated, the ability to tie item rewards to title tracks was added, and something could be done with that. Would it encourage me to play if I could unlock an exclusive weapon skin for winning 500 tournament games as a mesmer? Yes it would. What about an exclusive armor piece for 1000 wins?

Those are just two ways incentives and progression mechanics can be improved for PvP that do not run into the issue of interfering with gameplay. Those are the kind of additions that I feel you would see an overwhelmingly positive response to, instead of multiple forum threads asking the developers to rethink their decisions.

Justin ODell.9517:

Yes, high level players will find the best combinations. They already do, and have this advantage over new players. It’s one of the skills they’ve learned that makes them so effective.

The thing about this is that part of what makes a PvP game community great is when high level players can share their knowledge with less experienced players. Writing guides, making videos, teaching new players what works and why. It’s something that has been happening since launch and is a benefit to all players.

However, when skills and traits start being gated, this ability to freely share is hampered. It’s no longer a simple matter of offering new players guidance in terms of what skills and traits they should try for a certain profession, because the issue of what they have access to has been introduced. It will not be a huge issue immediately, unless certain profession’s meta builds tied to the new traits, but you’re encouraging us to think long term – what about when half of the traits are not core? Once the utility skills available has doubled?

Should anyone wanting to help new players with their builds just say “gg, come back after unlocking x, y, and z?” Should an ecosystem be forced where guides have to be made specifically for core skills and traits, even if those builds are less effective or ineffective, just because that’s what new players have access to?

Is that the new player experience Arenanet truly wants to encourage?

If guidance is what you are after, I think there would be greater value in letting it fall to the community. Provide encouragement to write guides, to make videos. Let us help each other rather than hindering what players can do without an investment in time and money.

I think everyone is getting ahead of themselves. We don’t know yet how much the traits will cost from profession trainers. And even if we did, we have no idea how long it would take to get the funds needed via pvp only, because we don’t know what the final reward system looks like.

So it’s just as likely this is all much ado about nothing than it is anything else. Folks should demonstrate a little patience and a least get all of the information or a little experience with it before locking in those opinions.

Wait what? This isn’t Accountbound? This just doesn’t make sense. Seriously that’s what’s going wrong with GW2 – bad managment decisions even thought the employees now better then that.

AcidicVision.5498:

I think everyone is getting ahead of themselves. We don’t know yet how much the traits will cost from profession trainers. And even if we did, we have no idea how long it would take to get the funds needed via pvp only, because we don’t know what the final reward system looks like.

So it’s just as likely this is all much ado about nothing than it is anything else. Folks should demonstrate a little patience and a least get all of the information or a little experience with it before locking in those opinions.

There is already previous experience with this awful ‘progression,’ unlockable healing skills.

The amount of time and fund does not matter because this horizontal progression is awful in the first place. It doesn’t matter if it cost 1 copper or 200g to unlock. It shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Justin ODell.9517:

Geniekid.2645:

unlocking a trait in PvE should also unlock it in PvP, right?

Correct. Unlocking a trait in PvE will also unlock it in PvP, and vice versa.

spvp unlock = less spvp players (and no more pure pvp players)
if you want the death of the “competitive” part of the game, you made the good choice.

No, it isn´t the death of competitive gaming. LoL, the one competitive eSport game also has an unlocking system for it´s champions. What´s import is that you unlock them by actually playing the game, that it doesn´t take long to unlock the traits you need, but to unlock every trait there is can take some time, which is a good think

Acaro.4067:

No, it isn´t the death of competitive gaming. LoL, the one competitive eSport game also has an unlocking system for it´s champions. What´s import is that you unlock them by actually playing the game, that it doesn´t take long to unlock the traits you need, but to unlock every trait there is can take some time, which is a good think

Why is taking time to unlock everything you want, to be able to be competitive (on a game mode that even gives you gear plus up levels you so you can start immidiatly to play and be on equal footing) is a good thing?

It is a contradiction.

DEDEN.2870:

There is no such thing as “horizontal progression” in any competitive environment. The very notion of such a concept is fundamentally naive.

This is not a competitive environment.
People keep acting like some day GW2 PvP will be taken seriously.
It won’t.
No patch, no change in GW2, no really anything has pushed GW2 in a competitive direction.
It is a casual game with hallow ‘esports’ features for people who aren’t competitive enough to actually use them in an actual esports level game, and the devs want it to be that.
Adding unlocks fits that just fine….

Anyways.
In every kittening MMO the brand spanking new player is at a disadvantage. In every way.
On top of lack of knowledge about the game, missing out on the opportunity to play a few specs since they don’t have a few traits is nothing…
If anything it is something to look forward to, and for a casual game, that is what the playerbase needs… the splashover PvE’ers need more kitten to do besides dailys

Acaro.4067:

No, it isn´t the death of competitive gaming. LoL, the one competitive eSport game also has an unlocking system for it´s champions. What´s import is that you unlock them by actually playing the game, that it doesn´t take long to unlock the traits you need, but to unlock every trait there is can take some time, which is a good think

Competitive gaming is vastly larger than league of legends, league of legends is also the sole game among the esport games to actually maintain a system with unlocks.

The change we’re seeing in GW2 with this is another step away from the initial manifesto they provided with what the game was going to be, it doesn’t kill competitive gaming in GW2 but it doesn’t quite attract new players to tPvP either.

Acaro.4067:

Wait what? This isn’t Accountbound? This just doesn’t make sense. Seriously that’s what’s going wrong with GW2 – bad managment decisions even thought the employees now better then that.

Sure it makes sense. more short-term $.
No more deleting characters , you should buy new character slots.

DEDEN.2870:

There is no such thing as “horizontal progression” in any competitive environment. The very notion of such a concept is fundamentally naive.

Any complex system with so many interlocking mechanics will always have “better” or “best” options. Either they’re more powerful in terms of raw numbers, they’re more useful in a wider array of situations, they’re more tolerant of sloppy mechanical play, or some combination of all three.

That’s not true for the most part. Many PvPers consider Guild Wars 1 to have/had (in its golden days) a much better PvP and more competitive PvP than Guild Wars 2. The numbers in PvP and its popularity in relation the to the population of the game as a whole was not in too good of a position. Basically the old system just wasn’t working. Many players I talked with played a few games, then stopped because they weren’t feeling rewarded.

This design is a great way to put in rewards for players to strive for as they rank up. I personally really like the idea. On top of this the current meta builds will still be playable. Its not like any of the builds I currently run will be unplayable once the patch hits. There are a ton of sigils and runes for me to already to use. Sure they may release an “OP” rune, skill, sigil, or trait; however the likelyhood of that thing being so good that every other default unlocked skill, rune, sigil, and trait becomes bad is very very very low.

As a side note I’ve seen many player say how this is not what the community wants. You’re betraying out trust, things like that.

You guys are not the majority. The portion of the playerbase that does PvP and browses the PvP forums is pretty low. You guys are a minority. They’re trying different ways to get the rest of the population interested in PvP and playing PvP. Merging of PvP and PvE, the new unlock system, etc; these are all indications that they want. I for one would love to see this. If more and more people play PvP, that means we may see more support/developer focus on PvP.

I’m not saying that this has a 100% chance of not turning out badly, it just has a low percent chance of doing so. Wait and see for this stuff to release before you make any judgement.

Deified.7520:

They’re trying different ways to get the rest of the population interested in PvP and playing PvP. Merging of PvP and PvE, the new unlock system, etc; these are all indications that they want. I for one would love to see this. If more and more people play PvP, that means we may see more support/developer focus on PvP.

Yes, disadvantaging the new players and letting the powerful veteran players stomp on them is a great way to introduce new players.

Oh wait, those traits are unlockable in PvE too? Then the PvErs already progressed all the way in pvp. Time to stop PvPing.

No, half-done Progression is not the way to keep the population interested in PvP. Making the game fun is the way to keep players interested. More maps, more modes, more playstyles and builds. Most of all, more variety and depth.

If players are interested in progression so much, then they can go to WvW. Separate the two playstyle and stop forcing power progression on sPvP.

runeblade.7514:

If players are interested in progression so much, then they can go to WvW. Separate the two playstyle and stop forcing power progression on sPvP.

That’s the problem. PvP has a low population compared to the rest of the game. It’s an underused game mode. The old system didn’t work as well as it should have. They’re trying to entice people in other game modes to come on over to PvP and play PvP (the complain that you can do all this stuff in PvE then come to PvP and you look like a newb is an old and frequently used complaint) ontop of pure PvP players to have a more horizontal progression. This is a MMO. This is not some major esports game like dota or LoL. Anet tried to do that and it didn’t do too well, especially with how many competitive teams quit the game or never bought the game. With MMOs a major part of the endgame is progressing your playing. They needed to find some way to offer a progression system for PvPers so that they have something to work for. What better game to look for ideas than the previous game Guild Wars 1. So they took that game’s design (which was in a much better standing in the competitive universe than Gw2) made some tweaks to it so that its a bit easier to hop to other parts of the game (PvE, WvW, PvP).

If this system has the chance of making PvP much more popular it is now, then I’m all for it. MMO players LOVE progression, its a vital and required part of a successful MMO game.

Justin, I’m one of those all-game-mode players you are referring to.
And as one of them my suggestion is: Don’t let players have to unlock skills in PvP.
When entering PvP I’m glad that I can just make a build and I’m all ready to go. Furthermore players should be able to freely decide whether they want to play a more complicated build or get an easy one – Even when they are new players. Having to unlock skills just decreases build diversity (in terms of access to builds) and creates frustration amongst PvP’ers. At least that’s how I feel about it. And on another note – It’s a turn back on Anets philosophy and promise to the players as well.

SkiTz.4590:

This is about the lack of accountability

I know it sucks but business changes. You can’t expect anything set in stone when there are real competitors out there.

Deified.7520:

runeblade.7514:

If players are interested in progression so much, then they can go to WvW. Separate the two playstyle and stop forcing power progression on sPvP.

That’s the problem. PvP has a low population compared to the rest of the game. It’s an underused game mode. The old system didn’t work as well as it should have. They’re trying to entice people in other game modes to come on over to PvP and play PvP (the complain that you can do all this stuff in PvE then come to PvP and you look like a newb is an old and frequently used complaint) ontop of pure PvP players to have a more horizontal progression. This is a MMO. This is not some major esports game like dota or LoL. Anet tried to do that and it didn’t do too well, especially with how many competitive teams quit the game or never bought the game. With MMOs a major part of the endgame is progressing your playing. They needed to find some way to offer a progression system for PvPers so that they have something to work for. What better game to look for ideas than the previous game Guild Wars 1. So they took that game’s design (which was in a much better standing in the competitive universe than Gw2) made some tweaks to it so that its a bit easier to hop to other parts of the game (PvE, WvW, PvP).

If this system has the chance of making PvP much more popular it is now, then I’m all for it. MMO players LOVE progression, its a vital and required part of a successful MMO game.

Then so the problem has always been power progression? So you are saying that adding unlockables will save PvP and add an influx of players coming in and keep them in there forever? If so, where is the influx of players coming in for the to get the 25 skillpoints for the new healing skill? Did the top tier competitive teams leave because there is a lack of power progression?

No? Maybe that the problem with PvP isn’t power progression but something else.

Justin ODell.9517:

Come on guys, lets be more productive here. Saying we don’t care isn’t just wrong,

like it or not the perception is that you don’t care, if you want to be perceived as caring it should show in the quality of your work.

for example having a transition period when doing spvp reward systems overhauls, not disabling the old system replacing it with nothing and still rewarding people under the old system with rewards that are going to be deleted, that’s not indicative of caring. nor is the constant progression deletions and resets that have plagued the game over the last year.

Justin ODell.9517:

Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style.

but having a build that isn’t tuned or competitive is inferior because you cannot access the locked traits that you require for that build does make you less powerful as you cannot optimize or even correctly use that build until you have those traits.

say for example i want to play a guardian and have a set level of mitigation/ hp i want to achieve, if i have access to the new trait, that means an extra 3k hp from that trait alone allowing me to change runes or stats elsewhere to be more offensive, if i don’t have access to that trait i cant change those other stats without losing survivability. making the build weaker comparatively.

lets be honest this is being driven by the goal of monetizing spvp through gem > gold >trait unlocks etc because all the “reasons” your giving are BS and could obviously be met in better ways

i’m myself against pvp progression, but when i see forum front page covered with half dozen of “moar rewards” spam threads, i see devs have little choice. i wish there was a way to offer different tracks to pvp only and achievment/pve crowd.