Guild Wars 2

Wow, thanks for the responses Justin. I think it’s really great when you get a healthy debate between the devs and the players. Seriously. I would love to see more devs getting into threads and debating with the players. It sparks life into the thread.

Anyways, I agree that I want more progression in sPvP. I didn’t when I first joined in and then I realized it was just way too disconnected from the world and I wished that it was kinda like how WvW worked. But hey, that’s just me. I came into this game solely playing only sPvP and then finally moved onto WvW and PvE as I wanted to roam and found out on what I was missing as well as what I wished sPvP had. Thanks for chiming in Justin.

Justin ODell if you guys want progression and unlocks in pvp i suggest you do it like this:

Trait points gained when you rank up, make so that rank 20-30 is needed to have all traits/whatever unlocked
Remove hot join, add a casual/unranked queue with optional queue for future game modes
Restrict ranked queues to rank 20-30+

If you are not removing hotjoin and adding unranked queues with possibility of duo queueing, then reduce rewards for losing and remove personal score from it, so winning means more and working as a team rather then just zerg around to get top scores.
Still think removing hotjoin and add unranked queues is the best way to do it, and removing rank points gained from custom games completely to stop win trade servers.

With the system i just described you have a system similar to LoL and Smite(and possibly other mobas?) Where you have to level up and get a bit of experience before you can join ranked games.

Or at the very least, make it so rank 50+players(especially those that didn’t farm skyhammah) get their traits unlocked by default.
Or add like 20-50gold and make it scale per level after rank 50+, maybe give those 60-70 players like 100g or whatever per rank up.

I got a few questions.

• How will you gain them? Grinding rank points, achievements, chests with currency or something else?
• Will the traits be equally easy to obtain in hotjoin, soloQ and TPvP, meaning not one of these “playstyles” will have an advantage at gaining them?

Vuh.1328:

Trait points gained when you rank up, make so that rank 20-30 is needed to have all traits/whatever unlocked
…
Restrict ranked queues to rank 20-30+
…

This would be vertical progression and defenitely NOT something I want to see. Also not the direction ArenaNet wants to take PvP as far as I’m aware.

It may work for League of Legends, but they don’t have the idea of an equal playing field for everyone, no matter if the person played for ages or started just recently

Players have been saying for a year now that GW had PvP right, why change it. Well there you go guys, in GW we did have unlocks, in PvP! We still don’t have to unlock gear (runes and such) like in the “prequel” so shush, ok?

Though as someone has already said, the PvP unlocks should be tied to account if we are to go back to the roots.

Also, thank you for your patience Justin.

Make no mistake, if the skills take a long time to get for pvp’ers it’s vertical progression. Most mesmer builds are already unviable without the mesmer heal.

Deku.3129:

Most mesmer builds are already unviable without the mesmer heal.

That’s simply untrue.

Vuh.1328:

Grax.9204:

Vuh.1328:

Trait points gained when you rank up, make so that rank 20-30 is needed to have all traits/whatever unlocked
…
Restrict ranked queues to rank 20-30+
…

This would be vertical progression and defenitely NOT something I want to see. Also not the direction ArenaNet wants to take PvP as far as I’m aware.

Seems the complete opposite as they already added heals that requires skill points to unlock and now adding traits which will cost gold to unlock.
Tying it to pvp ranks would make more sense and getting to rank 20-30 doesn’t take long.

Adding rank restriction to ranked games make sense as well so people who want to do ranked games actually are forced to have some god kitten experience before joining it.
Which is also the reason to add a unranked queue.

anyway
If i cannot buy all the traits for like 10gold i’ll not quit the game, i will however start looking for trustworthy gold sellers(gem conversion rates are horribru). I cannot be bothered to play the market place or farm pve just to stay competitive, if i wanted that i’d play wow or wildstar…
Or you gift the unlocks to pvpers who are already rank 50+ in pvp.

I doubt that this is the place to threaten using goldsellers.

I know of many occasional PvPers for which reaching lvl 30 will take ages. So the argument that it’s done quickly can’t be used for everyone.

Problems with the unlock system:

1. It totally stands in contrast to the initial characteristics of GW2 pvp. Spvp was always ment to be a place where you could jump in right from the beginning, without having disadvantages at the choice of skills / traits.

2. Being able to unlock new skills / traits is NO reward, being not able to use those traits is just a penalty, however, this doesn’t turn the unlocking system into a reward.

3. What else will we have to unlock in PvP? It started with skills, now we have to unlock traits. What’s next? I heard, they also reward runes and sigils as well as they add new amuletts. Will we have to unlock those, too?

4. Every time, sombody has issues with fighting vs. a certain build, you usally get the answer “try to play that build by urself”. This is a good tip and as long you have 1 free char space, it is easy to realize. With unlocks, it will become “spend 1-2 gold into a char you probably wont use very much, if you want to try it”.

5. For PvE players, there are 2 ways to unlock the new traits: via “Exploring the world” and the general way, the merchant. PvP players will be restricted to the merchant. At least, give us a unique PvP way for unlocking them. What about using the e.g. “(Chapmion) Illusionist” titels or Ranks for that (in additoin to merchants)

And last, this is more related to the “fusion of PvE and PvP”.
I know, you already introduced coins in PvP, however you should consider this:
As soon PvP gives more coins than PvE, PvE players might abuse PvP for farming issues. However, as long PvP gives significantly leses coins than PvE, PvP players will complain about having disadvantages.
This gets worse, when you need coins to unlock stuff for PvP.
Getting less coins out of PvP isn’t that bad, if PvE is the only thing, you can use them for. Getting less coins out of PvP, while actually needing them for PvP is unfair.

Justin ODell.9517:

Lupanic.6502:

You really think if a new player is able to select from a pool of traits he is fine but if he gets 1 new trait per line he is lost? Come on.

Again, this system is forward looking. If we just unlocked the 40 new traits now, what about next time? It will always just be X more. We have to draw a line somewhere, and here is probably the best place to start.

Thanks for being so vocal in this thread, but that is just a strange strategy – Guildwars2 marketing message/manifesto actually mentioned where you draw the line in this instance:
You do not draw any artificial barriers/“lines”, since in pvp everyone should be equal, everyone should be able to use all the gear, every single sigil, each and every trait, all the utilities just by joining the pvp lobby.

I think every pvper made a huge mistake by ignoring the implementation of new healing skills, yes I know they were all crappy, but that gave anet a precedent – no one cared that they went against the whole idea of spvp in gw2, thus they can do it again, and again, and again. Where do you draw a line then? Will there be only trait unlocks? How about some new utilities? Maybe an elite or two for couple hundred gems? Or some pack new sigils that can be unlock just for 9.99€? I hope that this is not the road anet is following, but the whole situation looks grim.

Grax.9204:

Vuh.1328:

Grax.9204:

Vuh.1328:

Trait points gained when you rank up, make so that rank 20-30 is needed to have all traits/whatever unlocked
…
Restrict ranked queues to rank 20-30+
…

This would be vertical progression and defenitely NOT something I want to see. Also not the direction ArenaNet wants to take PvP as far as I’m aware.

Seems the complete opposite as they already added heals that requires skill points to unlock and now adding traits which will cost gold to unlock.
Tying it to pvp ranks would make more sense and getting to rank 20-30 doesn’t take long.

Adding rank restriction to ranked games make sense as well so people who want to do ranked games actually are forced to have some god kitten experience before joining it.
Which is also the reason to add a unranked queue.

anyway
If i cannot buy all the traits for like 10gold i’ll not quit the game, i will however start looking for trustworthy gold sellers(gem conversion rates are horribru). I cannot be bothered to play the market place or farm pve just to stay competitive, if i wanted that i’d play wow or wildstar…
Or you gift the unlocks to pvpers who are already rank 50+ in pvp.

I doubt that this is the place to threaten using goldsellers.

I know of many occasional PvPers for which reaching lvl 30 will take ages. So the argument that it’s done quickly can’t be used for everyone.

which is why i said 20-30.

My point is, make the pvp unlockable unlocked by doing pvp and not by doing pve.
If you still want it to be unlockable in pvp by doing pve at least make it so pvpers who pvp actually unlock it faster.

I will try to be fairplay with all the players by not unlocking those new traits in PvP. This will be my small way of protest, for this change in PvP concept of the game.

Please note current PvP concept:
“All characters are on even footing in both kinds of competitive play. Players use their regular characters, but everyone is adjusted to the maximum so that all characters are roughly equal in power.”
SOURCE: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/ (Section: Player vs. Player)

EverythingEnds.4261:

Problems with the unlock system:

1. It totally stands in contrast to the initial characteristics of GW2 pvp. Spvp was always ment to be a place where you could jump in right from the beginning, without having disadvantages at the choice of skills / traits.

2. Being able to unlock new skills / traits is NO reward, being not able to use those traits is just a penalty, however, this doesn’t turn the unlocking system into a reward.

3. What else will we have to unlock in PvP? It started with skills, now we have to unlock traits. What’s next? I heard, they also reward runes and sigils as well as they add new amuletts. Will we have to unlock those, too?

4. Every time, sombody has issues with fighting vs. a certain build, you usally get the answer “try to play that build by urself”. This is a good tip and as long you have 1 free char space, it is easy to realize. With unlocks, it will become “spend 1-2 gold into a char you probably wont use very much, if you want to try it”.

5. For PvE players, there are 2 ways to unlock the new traits: via “Exploring the world” and the general way, the merchant. PvP players will be restricted to the merchant. At least, give us a unique PvP way for unlocking them. What about using the e.g. “(Chapmion) Illusionist” titels or Ranks for that (in additoin to merchants)

And last, this is more related to the “fusion of PvE and PvP”.
I know, you already introduced coins in PvP, however you should consider this:
As soon PvP gives more coins than PvE, PvE players might abuse PvP for farming issues. However, as long PvP gives significantly leses coins than PvE, PvP players will complain about having disadvantages.
This gets worse, when you need coins to unlock stuff for PvP.
Getting less coins out of PvP isn’t that bad, if PvE is the only thing, you can use them for. Getting less coins out of PvP, while actually needing them for PvP is unfair.

100% on the nail, well summarised /applause!

While i’m not an active PvP player myself, i share the feelings with this guy. Unlocks in pvp shouldn’t be a problem ever and basically you (Arena net) drop out the easy-to-pick up, so called “competetive” gameplay out of the window for … reasons.
Just don’t do it, please. :/

EverythingEnds.4261:

Problems with the unlock system:

1. It totally stands in contrast to the initial characteristics of GW2 pvp. Spvp was always ment to be a place where you could jump in right from the beginning, without having disadvantages at the choice of skills / traits.

2. Being able to unlock new skills / traits is NO reward, being not able to use those traits is just a penalty, however, this doesn’t turn the unlocking system into a reward.

3. What else will we have to unlock in PvP? It started with skills, now we have to unlock traits. What’s next? I heard, they also reward runes and sigils as well as they add new amuletts. Will we have to unlock those, too?

4. Every time, sombody has issues with fighting vs. a certain build, you usally get the answer “try to play that build by urself”. This is a good tip and as long you have 1 free char space, it is easy to realize. With unlocks, it will become “spend 1-2 gold into a char you probably wont use very much, if you want to try it”.

5. For PvE players, there are 2 ways to unlock the new traits: via “Exploring the world” and the general way, the merchant. PvP players will be restricted to the merchant. At least, give us a unique PvP way for unlocking them. What about using the e.g. “(Chapmion) Illusionist” titels or Ranks for that (in additoin to merchants)

And last, this is more related to the “fusion of PvE and PvP”.
I know, you already introduced coins in PvP, however you should consider this:
As soon PvP gives more coins than PvE, PvE players might abuse PvP for farming issues. However, as long PvP gives significantly leses coins than PvE, PvP players will complain about having disadvantages.
This gets worse, when you need coins to unlock stuff for PvP.
Getting less coins out of PvP isn’t that bad, if PvE is the only thing, you can use them for. Getting less coins out of PvP, while actually needing them for PvP is unfair.

Justin, are you going to implement balance changes, and not only new features and traits?

Shockwave.1230:

I’d like to echo the thank you. 11 posts from 1 dev in one thread on 1 page. You spoil us.

When they put in extra effort to pamper players like that, you should probably be at least a teeny-weeny bit concerned. I mean, it’s even real replies we’re talking here (kudos, Mr Justin!). I’d sound the alarm, if I were you!

Justin ODell.9517:

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

I understand some of you are worried that we’re just adding stuff and ignoring existing problems. I can assure you, as I sit within earshot of the Skills and Combat team, that they are very aware of this and have no plans to ignore existing issues.

Easing the players into options

Many successful games ease players into option because they did it right.

Every profession have 60 traits in their disposal. Having all 60 traits all at once is very confusing by itself. If you want to truly ease newer players, you want to make 50 of these traits be unlockable. Unlocking Healing skills didn’t make me feel at ease with options.

Or, we can go to another route. A better route that won’t hurt sPvP in any way. In the game(not in the forums), the team can create a list of easy to play meta builds for newer players to choose from and give a detailed explanation on how to play it. That is how I learned and got into sPvP.

But let say that the team is too stubborn to change their mind on the backwards unlockable system. If it must be done, then make unlockables account bound. I will settle just for that.

I play with alts and I don’t want to unlock for my Charr warrior and then for my Norn warrior. I would like to unlock with my Charr warrior and then my Norn warrior will get automatically in sPvP.

Horizontal progression

There was a great horizontal progression. It is called gears. I wanted to collect all the gear out there, but they were easy to get. But, After the team added Dungeon/cultural gear. I aimed to get all the dungeon and cultural gear. I felt the progression was right until glory was removed and these gear didn’t affect sPvP gameplay one bit.

I wanted to voice my two-cents in this thread, too, as a player that enjoys PVP, but doesn’t play it exclusively.

I think I understand ANET’s point of view when deciding to add skill unlocks in PVP, because honestly the only rewards I ever saw in PVP that were remotely motivating boiled down to looking good and having a cool finisher. (Other than the fun of just playing PVP and stomping on someone.)

Cool finishers can already be bought from the gemstore without skill or rank and when they merge PVE and PVP looks, well…I already look good in PVE so I’m not too sure what else would motivate me reward-wise in PVP to progress. And even before the merger, I am currently pretty happy with the look of my PVP looks anyway.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’d rather hear the whole picture before passing my judgement, since there are tons of games I’ve played that are still enjoyable even if I didn’t have access to every skill available to me from the very beginning. It’s a departure from what ANET said before, but I know PVP isn’t currently a very successful part of the game (when comparing participation to PVE or WVW) and I’m hoping they are trying to turn that around.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t voice their opinion, since feedback is the only way ANET can improve, but it’s only been day one of their reveals of the feature patch.

Just my thoughts. Take it as you will.

runeblade.7514:

Justin ODell.9517:

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

I understand some of you are worried that we’re just adding stuff and ignoring existing problems. I can assure you, as I sit within earshot of the Skills and Combat team, that they are very aware of this and have no plans to ignore existing issues.

Easing the players into options

Many successful games ease players into option because they did it right.

Every profession have 60 traits in their disposal. Having all 60 traits all at once is very confusing by itself. If you want to truly ease newer players, you want to make 50 of these traits be unlockable. Unlocking Healing skills didn’t make me feel at ease with options.

Or, we can go to another route. A better route that won’t hurt sPvP in any way. In the game(not in the forums), the team can create a list of easy to play meta builds for newer players to choose from and give a detailed explanation on how to play it. That is how I learned and got into sPvP.

But let say that the team is too stubborn to change their mind on the backwards unlockable system. If it must be done, then make unlockables account bound. I will settle just for that.

I play with alts and I don’t want to unlock for my Charr warrior and then for my Norn warrior. I would like to unlock with my Charr warrior and then my Norn warrior will get automatically in sPvP.

Horizontal progression

There was a great horizontal progression. It is called gears. I wanted to collect all the gear out there, but they were easy to get. But, After the team added Dungeon/cultural gear. I aimed to get all the dungeon and cultural gear. I felt the progression was right until glory was removed and these gear didn’t affect sPvP gameplay one bit.

I watched a sPvP game on twitch. I saw a nice build on a char I never played before. I want to log in, create a char go to sPvP and have some fun. This was always possible.
With the new system I have to go to PvE first and level my char until I get the traits?
I want to delete a char and create a new one just because I like the face or the name of my new char more.

I personally like this. Now I know the concerns many are talking about are reasonable, but adding more progression to PvP can actually to it a lot of good. Reminds me of Guild Wars 1 PvP. Something I noticed with friends and guildies that pvp’d is they usually get bored/stop pvping around rank 30. This is when it starts taking a pretty long time to rank up. Players need to feel rewarded and a sense of progression in an MMO in order for a game mode to be popular. With Gw2’s pvp players got most looks from ranked matches by the time they reached rank 30. It usually doesn’t take them too long to obtain the rank 30 looks that they want, along with achievement chest which speed up the process even more. By doing a system like this, players can look forward to something else as the rank up. So many complaints are about how PvP didn’t feel rewarding and how long it took to rank up. This way they can throw in more rewards for players to shoot for without making it very easy to obtain ranks.

Also keep in mind that what is discussed on the forums isn’t always want is wanted. I’m not saying your opinion isn’t valid, but I know a lot of people that prefer to not go on the forums. So while I understand your concerns about it, I wouldn’t be surprised if doing a system like this trait system can keep more pvpers involved in PvP longer, which to me is a plus any day.

Lupanic.6502:

runeblade.7514:

Justin ODell.9517:

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

I understand some of you are worried that we’re just adding stuff and ignoring existing problems. I can assure you, as I sit within earshot of the Skills and Combat team, that they are very aware of this and have no plans to ignore existing issues.

Easing the players into options

Many successful games ease players into option because they did it right.

Every profession have 60 traits in their disposal. Having all 60 traits all at once is very confusing by itself. If you want to truly ease newer players, you want to make 50 of these traits be unlockable. Unlocking Healing skills didn’t make me feel at ease with options.

Or, we can go to another route. A better route that won’t hurt sPvP in any way. In the game(not in the forums), the team can create a list of easy to play meta builds for newer players to choose from and give a detailed explanation on how to play it. That is how I learned and got into sPvP.

But let say that the team is too stubborn to change their mind on the backwards unlockable system. If it must be done, then make unlockables account bound. I will settle just for that.

I play with alts and I don’t want to unlock for my Charr warrior and then for my Norn warrior. I would like to unlock with my Charr warrior and then my Norn warrior will get automatically in sPvP.

Horizontal progression

There was a great horizontal progression. It is called gears. I wanted to collect all the gear out there, but they were easy to get. But, After the team added Dungeon/cultural gear. I aimed to get all the dungeon and cultural gear. I felt the progression was right until glory was removed and these gear didn’t affect sPvP gameplay one bit.

I watched a sPvP game on twitch. I saw a nice build on a char I never played before. I want to log in, create a char go to sPvP and have some fun. This was always possible.
With the new system I have to go to PvE first and level my char until I get the traits?
I want to delete a char and create a new one just because I like the face or the name of my new char more.

I agree on how you dislike the new system.

My post was merely offering choices on how to ease players in better than the Dev’s system.

There are two choices:

• Make everything unlockable. This will teach players about the traits and skills.
• Create a list of easy to play meta builds option. This will teach players on how to play the class. This is my recommended choice, I rather have the devs create a list of meta build options.

If Devs are too stubborn for the two choices, then I offer a third that satisfy me enough. Make unlockable account-bound. However, this will not ease player into sPvP.

Lukin.4061:

I think every pvper made a huge mistake by ignoring the implementation of new healing skills, yes I know they were all crappy, but that gave anet a precedent – no one cared that they went against the whole idea of spvp in gw2, thus they can do it again, and again, and again. Where do you draw a line then? Will there be only trait unlocks? How about some new utilities? Maybe an elite or two for couple hundred gems? Or some pack new sigils that can be unlock just for 9.99€? I hope that this is not the road anet is following, but the whole situation looks grim.

If I remember right, the pvp community also wasn’t excited at all about the new heal skills having to be unlocked.

However, just like always, ANet totally ignored all kinds of criticism.

I would rly appreciate it, if ANet would simply stop trying to tie PvE and PvP together.
Every player has his own tast and that’s why some plave PvE or PvP or both.
If PvP players would be interested in PvE, they would play PvE and not PvP.
I suppose, the only reason why ANet wants to fuse the modes is, as they want to give PvE palyers more incentives to play PvP by enabeling them to unlock everything in PvP without actually playing it.

Fusing PvP and PvE has so many downsides.
Just look at the Balancing. Usally PvE and PvP have a lot of different issues, however, by always trying to make a skill / trait balanced in both modes, ANet cuts in its own flash.
If a skill needs to be towned down in PvP, it is probably much more effective and way more faster to simply town it down for PvP and not touch is PvE side, instead of wasting time about how to find a compromise for both.

Where does the idea come from that you have to unlock those traits in PvE for PvP?

I can’t see that anywhere, yet it seems a lot of people think just that

I don’t suppose, a lot of ppl think that.

However you should be aware of this.
PvE players have 2 options:
Play PvE to unlock, or pay to unlock.

PvP player are stuck with the second one.

Not to mention, that this is more about the fact, that you have to unlock the traits, not how they are unlocked.

As someone who has a specific level 2 character set up to play PvP with – should i be concerned about how that character can unlock these new traits? – whilst i have a second necromancer who is level 80. I’m concerned I will have to scrap my level 2 necro as they wont have the neweer traits unlocked?

I know its strange but I love having it set up this way, it means i can have my crazy princess asura alt to pvp with but not have to play the entire games events/stories and other stuff i love with a silly/Fun character.

Justin ODell.9517:

Come on guys, lets be more productive here. Saying we don’t care isn’t just wrong, it shuts down and discourages dialog between developers and players.

Don’t get me wrong, you can certainly express your opinions and frustrations, but just because we are heading in a direction you personally don’t agree with doesn’t mean we don’t care or that we are ignoring you.

Now lets get this thread back on track.

As Roy mentioned in another thread, all the current traits will remain unlocked in PvP, even for new players. It is only new traits that need to be unlocked, and you will not have to PvE to obtain them.

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

I understand some of you are worried that we’re just adding stuff and ignoring existing problems. I can assure you, as I sit within earshot of the Skills and Combat team, that they are very aware of this and have no plans to ignore existing issues.

I have over 30 characters. Now I have to do unlocks on each one of them for the new skills? Can I get a refund?

Just use gw1 system. I was a purely pvp player back then and I liked the unlock system.

I can’t wait for the napalm storm when new traits eventually get ‘fixed/nerfed/balanced’ after people have paid gold for them and they turn out to be useless….

I don’t see what’s the problem.

So many massively popular game force you to unlock and stop you from playing your friend right away, and they did just fine.

Look at league of legend (man, i hate the reference, but so many people play it…), it take QUITE a while to unlock your mastery, rune and cats, yet people still enjoy it. In comparison, this is way less of a problem in term of scale. Even unlocking new class would probably be pale in comparison to LoL’s grind to lv20ish to play with your friend kind of deal.

Obviously LoL’s solution is create new smurf account to play with your lowbie friends (and then it got the problem of egoistic people boosting their ego and be toxic while stomping noobs), GW2 just need a way to solve it as well.

(GW1 was clearly another example, but so overused example here =p)

Justin ODell.9517:

Rubik.7192:

PvP gives us a tiny bit of coin. No matter how much you play pvp, you won’t be able to make as much as your average pveer. What’s the point in implementing “horizontal” progression when pveers can unlock the new traits multiple times faster than pvpers?

That is a valid concern, one worthy of its own thread. I should mention that this is only part of the rewards we have planned. We should have a blog post about that coming out soon™, but I’m not sure where it is in the schedule.

i hope it’s reconsidered. spvp in it’s state → not motivating me at all and just thinking atm of a fast way to level up my warrior now that i can’t get tomes.

Lupanic.6502:

many of us do not leave the mists. I play 95% of my guild wars time in the mists. I do not want to go for hours and hours into the pve to unlock a trait. The pve guys do not have to go to pvp for unlock something. Why do I have to go to pve to unlock my traits?

You keep saying in this thread how you don’t want to pve to unlock any traits. Yet if you’d actually read what Justin wrote, he did say: “you will not have to PvE to obtain them.” So, stop with the misinformation.

Anyway, this seems to be going back to the GW1 system so I’m not quite getting the outrage (also there’s stuff like LoL where you don’t have access to all the characters, some which are very powerful.. people have to play or pay real money to unlock those, then be earning enough gold throughout the match for upgrades. That e-sport is doing spectacularly well.) We don’t know how the unlocks will be paid for, but it would be cool if they were paid through a pvp currency like you did with Balthazar Faction in GW1.

jmatb.6307:

They. Don’t. Care. About. PvP. Only. Players.

/thread

I would argue that Justin taking the time to have a conversation with players (many of whom were being outright rude) between 11:45 PM and 12:45 AM is pretty awesome. How many of us would do that for our place of employment?

jmatb.6307:

They. Care. About. Players.

/thread

Fixed that for you.

The problem here is that Anet is saying “Trust us, this will be awesome”, and Anet has set a very poor precedent for trust. Nearly every time they’ve asked for the playerbases trust, they’ve betrayed it.

I’m truly sick of Anet telling me as a player “Trust us, this is what you want”, when the vast majority of players have made it clear that No, this is NOT what we want. In fact, more often than not its the EXACT kittenING OPPOSITE of what we want. It’s like being in an abusive relationship, and I’m looking forward to getting out of it.

That isn’t aimed at you personally Justin – thanks for always taking the time to respond calmly and politely, it is appreciated – it’s just unfortunate that Anet’s position is so consistently opposite the desires of the majority of the community.

I play 90/10 PvE/PvP and even I think this is a TERRIBLE idea. As soon as the meta for any class includes an unlockable trait the entire system falls apart and is a horrible punishment.

I’m sure people at Anet believe this is a horizontal system because “All the traits will be equally good.” Unfortunately, that has not proven to be even remotely true. Unlocks in a game with the current balance of GW2 will absolutely become vertical progression.

So, vertical progression in your “everyone equal” PvP environment? That is a design failure.

My only issue with unlocks in PvP is that you have to do it every single time for each character of the same profession.

Someone who enjoys playing with several race-profession combinations will have to unlock the same skill for each of them every single time. Which can feel rather tedious.

Progression that can be fine and fun multiplied by repetition can become unenjoyable grind.

In GW1, when you unlocked anything in PvP (either playing, paying with Balthazar faction, or buying the unlock in the store), it was unlocked for the entire account, from equipment upgrades to ranger pets.

In GW2, if you have several characters of the same profession for whatever reason, you will have to remember which one had the skills and traits unlocked, or unlock all of them in them all.

Instead, unlocking something in PvP should get it unlocked for all characters of the same profession in PvP, and reduce the cost for other characters in PvE.

For example, when unlocking Defiant Stance with a warrior, all other warriors should get Defiant Stance in PvP with no additional cost or effort, and reduce the cost from 30 skill points to 5 for the skill in PvE.

Yeah, my opinion on this is that horizontal progressional makes sense in PvE. It is a really bad ideal for PvP. The goal of PvP is, and always should be, equality between player gear/traits/etc.

My suggestion is to automatically unlock everything in PvP and only implement the unlock feature for the PvE world.

The point is, in spvp there shouldnt be ANY KIND of progression, just “plug and play” that was one of the main selling points of this game, not needing to grind whatsoever to achieve a competitive status in spvp (now you just roll warrior), simple as that.

You can put any fancy theme to it like “horisontal progression” it goes against what you guys preached in the beginning

I, for one, missed skill and trait hunting from GW. And I’m glad to see it back in some form. I wish it were still just skill unlocks instead, so we could have neat novelty PvE skills that throw back to EoTn days. Nothing so OP or required as some of the faction skills, more along the lines of cultural elites (cultural utilities?). That would give players a major incentive to do harder, out of the way content.

As far as how that plays in PvP, progression in the form of traits is pretty cool. It’s not exactly progression you can showcase. I guess that’s what rank is for. But contrary to popular belief, options are not always proportional to power. And until we see an instance where two new grandmaster and a new master trait, user together, become the one build to rule them all, it’s sort of jumping the gun and speculating to argue the point. Just falling prey to a “MOAR is Powherr!@!!!1111!” mentality.

All of the classes have new heals. Did thieves get more powerful with the addition of skelk venom? In almost all cases, no. But it’s a nice option to have if you are using a venoms build. Residual, leeching and venomous strength play with it nicely. Are all thieves now running venoms? Is that heal mandatory if you are? Did it all of the sudden make venoms more viable than they were? Absolutely not. It is what it is, another option to people who might have a play-style more inclined towards it. I believe that traits are designed to fall into that same niche.

If it’s not something you would use, or doesn’t mesh well with your style, then you can just skip it and be non the worse. The only people this change could even possibly come close to inconveniencing or setting back to any degree that might be reflected in performance, are those that just jump on the meta train and copy the flavor of the month build to score easy wins before the community solves it, without a single kitten given to how or why it works. And thats assuming dominant meta is ever based on any of these traits.

Darek.1836:

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

No one on the entire forums agree with you. Does that not say enough?

Don’t try to speak for “everyone on the forums”.

I agree with Justin. I think a lot of players are getting scared that they’ll have to actually work towards something instead of just getting it handed to them, but personally, I will enjoy having something more than just a higher ranking to work towards.

I am completely, 100% against the power imbalances with players who put tons of time in the game for gear/bonus/etc. advantages like you see in other MMOs, but I don’t think that’s what this is.

This will be a good change.

Dahkeus.8243:

Darek.1836:

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

No one on the entire forums agree with you. Does that not say enough?

Don’t try to speak for “everyone on the forums”.

I agree with Justin. I think a lot of players are getting scared that they’ll have to actually work towards something instead of just getting it handed to them, but personally, I will enjoy having something more than just a higher ranking to work towards.

I am completely, 100% against the power imbalances with players who put tons of time in the game for gear/bonus/etc. advantages like you see in other MMOs, but I don’t think that’s what this is.

This will be a good change.

So you would agree if they made you level you character to play spvp too? Since the rest of the people is so “entitled”.

You are missing the point of spvp, that was just play when you wanted and not to have to worry about petty things like gearing up and grind new skills, you were all on equal footing

If this only aplied to pve it’s fine they, dont have anymore to do besides afking in LA bank…

It is the complete oposite of what they advertised and made us belive…

Ugruk.4069:

Dahkeus.8243:

Darek.1836:

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

No one on the entire forums agree with you. Does that not say enough?

Don’t try to speak for “everyone on the forums”.

I agree with Justin. I think a lot of players are getting scared that they’ll have to actually work towards something instead of just getting it handed to them, but personally, I will enjoy having something more than just a higher ranking to work towards.

I am completely, 100% against the power imbalances with players who put tons of time in the game for gear/bonus/etc. advantages like you see in other MMOs, but I don’t think that’s what this is.

This will be a good change.

So you would agree if they made you level you character to play spvp too? Since the rest of the people is so “entitled”.

You are missing the point of spvp, that was just play when you wanted and not to have to worry about petty things like gearing up and grind new skills, you were all on equal footing

If this only aplied to pve it’s fine they, dont have anymore to do besides afking in LA bank…

It is the comple oposite of what they advertised and made us belive…

Rofl! Come on, you can’t be serious! You’re comparing a trait unlock of additional traits for build diversity that can be done entirely through PvP to leveling an entirely new character to 80 through PvE only?

I know this change is scary, but just step away from your keyboard and think about it for a while.

Justin, I just wanted to say that you convinced me on this and I am sure the PvP Team will decide for the right thing, which will work towards the goal of increasing sPvP population.

Why is it that the content to unlock these abilities are pve only? Why isn’t the opposite true? Why is there no pvp specific content to unlock them? I’m not talking about unlocks through gold.

These decisions, while being great to get new players in without overwhelming them, should have no significant impact on committed players.

If it does then there’s a problem. Still very excited to hear about the new content, it’ll make my train journey tonight go much faster….

Ugruk.4069:

I dont get it so only certain things qualify? What is the kittening diference then?
If it is so quick to do then just give it to the spvp players and move along, it could be locked in pve for the same characters I couldnt care less…

You’re considering only radical extremes, which is probably why you’re having so much trouble understanding this.

Radical extreme 1: 100% everything is unlocked or is so trivial that it’s almost instantly unlocked.
Radical extreme 2: Things that need to be unlocked require a heavy grind where the player is put at a big disadvantage in terms of performance until they unlock everything.

The reality of what is being designed is something that takes some time to unlock, but isn’t on the same level as leveling a completely new character from 1 to 80. It’s also something that can be unlocked through PvP as well as PvE. While there will almost certainly be some strong meta builds that use the new traits, all of them certainly won’t and using a build with an older trait for a while won’t be gamebreaking by any stretch.

Phaeton.9582:

These decisions, while being great to get new players in without overwhelming them, should have no significant impact on committed players.

If it does then there’s a problem. Still very excited to hear about the new content, it’ll make my train journey tonight go much faster….

If they do not like to overwhelming new player they would create templates and not lock new traits.

MithranArkanere.8957:

My only issue with unlocks in PvP is that you have to do it every single time for each character of the same profession.

Someone who enjoys playing with several race-profession combinations will have to unlock the same skill for each of them every single time. Which can feel rather tedious.

Progression that can be fine and fun multiplied by repetition can become unenjoyable grind.

In GW1, when you unlocked anything in PvP (either playing, paying with Balthazar faction, or buying the unlock in the store), it was unlocked for the entire account, from equipment upgrades to ranger pets.

In GW2, if you have several characters of the same profession for whatever reason, you will have to remember which one had the skills and traits unlocked, or unlock all of them in them all.

Instead, unlocking something in PvP should get it unlocked for all characters of the same profession in PvP, and reduce the cost for other characters in PvE.

For example, when unlocking Defiant Stance with a warrior, all other warriors should get Defiant Stance in PvP with no additional cost or effort, and reduce the cost from 30 skill points to 5 for the skill in PvE.

But your tag says, “Unlocks are always better. No exceptions.”

Justin ODell.9517:

As Roy mentioned in another thread, all the current traits will remain unlocked in PvP, even for new players. It is only new traits that need to be unlocked, and you will not have to PvE to obtain them.

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

I am happy that you are active on forum but this statement is completely opposite to what was promised when it comes to spvp.
“All players will stand on equal footing, with only personal skill difference, from the very moment they step into spvp”.

If player A has more traits to choose from then player B, player B is in disadvantage if one of the missing traits turns to be stronger then other available, or necessary for build fitting meta. Your point would only ever be valid if all permutations of all possible builds were equally powerful in the same settings(meta+role). That is not possible and so gating some skills and traits does put new players in disadvantage – given that the new skills/traits are actually worth picking.

even though the idea of pvp unlocks goes against the whole level playing field concept of tpvp, i’d be ok with gold unlocks if match rewards didn’t give us pennies.