Guild Wars 2

Forum bug…..
/15 chars

I see you guys struggle with English words, here let me help you:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/instant

get rekt m8 lol

Xiahou Mao.9701:

StickerHappy.8052:

Lol. You do realize It only does not affect AAs. But it does affect the other 4.

How bout for thieves? It does not affect 5

Hello?

Dondagora.9645:

………I assume you’re joking. If you’re not, I’ll explain that all #1, or AA[Autoattacks], aren’t put on CD when interrupted, but again, I’ll assume you’re joking.

Well, you’re right about auto-attacks not going on cooldown when interrupted. But neither are thief weapon skills. You seem to want thief weapon skills to change so that they can go on cooldown when interrupted. So it’s only fair the same be true for things like Spatial Surge if your proposal is to be considered.

I don’t see how that’s any more ridiculous than what you’re talking about. There’s a subset of skills on all classes that aren’t affected by Power Block. This is inconsistent and it should be changed. Or are you just no longer a fan of this idea since it’s now potentially hurting your class?

(as mentioned earlier in this thread, this is how Power Block worked when it initially came out, and it promptly got changed/fixed)

If you want to go down this road, would your argument be quelled if I said I’m not a fan of PB putting AA’s on CD, no matter the class? Because I still don’t want the thieves’ #1 skills to be put on CD or punished on interrupt.

Also, this has nothing to do with me playing mesmer except for why I noticed it. If you’d like to stake my persistence in this matter as simply being my mesmer-fanboyism, go ahead, but at least add some logic to it that people would actually agree is sensible.

I’ll go ahead and say this now: AA’s are not equivalent to Thief skills because thief skills are connected to a CD of some kind[Initiative] and are effected by interruptions[sometimes] when AA’s are not[you can go right back to bashing #1 after a rupt]. This is not a thread saying the initial PB was the most balanced version of it, however it went from being OP to UP. If you’d like to contribute to the argument of why thief skills shouldn’t be effected by PB, go ahead, but attempt not to say A=Z or attack the topic by arguing there’s a bias behind it. There’s always a bias behind something, but sometimes, despite the bias, the opinion is reasonable. Sometimes not. Discuss with logic to prove or disprove the point, not the person presenting it.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I see you guys struggle with English words, here let me help you:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/instant

get rekt m8 lol

Continue to call us stupid, please.

I can only assume what you mean with this, but I’ll take a stab in the dark: Thief weapon skills are instant? Sure, some are, but some can be interrupted in their 1/4-3/4 of a second cast time. If not, please, elaborate on whatever you were trying to say, because a definition of a word isn’t usually counted as a proper explanation without context.

Dondagora you are really showing some serious patience against all these troll posts, man. Respect.

If this doesn’t prove to you all that he is trying to have a constructive, unbiased discussion and isn’t in fact crying for thief nerfs then nothing will. Least you can do is show the same respect he is showing y’all.

Dondagora.9645:

I’ll go ahead and say this now: AA’s are not equivalent to Thief skills because thief skills are connected to a CD of some kind[Initiative]

Initiative isn’t a cooldown. If Initiative were a cooldown, Chill would affect how quickly it regenerates. Chill does not affect how quickly Initiative regenerates. This has been mentioned several times in the past by people seeking to foster nerfs upon Thieves, and the dev team has stated that it’s intentional that Chill be less effective against Thieves than other classes.

and are effected by interruptions[sometimes] when AA’s are not[you can go right back to bashing #1 after a rupt].

Thief weapon skills suffer no special effects from interruptions at all. There is never a cooldown attached to them beyond the traditional “you are stunned, all your skills are on cooldown until the stun ends” visual effect. They behave identically to auto-attacks in that respect.

This is not a thread saying the initial PB was the most balanced version of it, however it went from being OP to UP. If you’d like to contribute to the argument of why thief skills shouldn’t be effected by PB, go ahead, but attempt not to say A=Z or attack the topic by arguing there’s a bias behind it. There’s always a bias behind something, but sometimes, despite the bias, the opinion is reasonable. Sometimes not. Discuss with logic to prove or disprove the point, not the person presenting it.

I’m fine with using logic. That’s what I’ve been doing here. Thief weapon skills have no cooldowns. Initiative is not a cooldown, as Chill has never affected it. Initiative is a class mechanic that replaces cooldowns. Mechanically, Thief weapon skills behave identically to auto-attacks on other classes. This was clearly seen with the initial introduction of Power Block. When the change was applied to fix it, it was explicitly stated by the devs that Power Block was not meant to work on either auto-attacks or Thief weapon skills.

If you feel that the trait is worthless because half the skills on the skill bar of one class cannot be affected by it, then chances are the trait is not one that you would pick even if that wasn’t the case. Wouldn’t Hide in Shadows be a better thing to try to interrupt, anyway, with its slow casting time, clear tell and the knowledge that locking a Thief out of his heal/stealth combo is going to mean a dead thief? You can already do that with Power Block as it is.

Honestly the people defending this are comedic gold. Thief vs Mesmer is already heavily in favor of the thief, and making this change would make the trait actually work. It’s also not like thief vs mesmer would be any better, and I doubt anyone would start running this trait. Seriously though, if your saying this change shouldn’t happen your a forum warrior who’s only arguing out of self interest.

God forbid thieves were beholden to the rules of chill and interrupts just like anybody else. But nope.
Thieves are the very reason most classes run bunker builds, because other than mediguard and maybe a well played berk warrior, thief hunts all others out of the meta.

Xiahou Mao.9701:

Dondagora.9645:

I’ll go ahead and say this now: AA’s are not equivalent to Thief skills because thief skills are connected to a CD of some kind[Initiative]

Initiative isn’t a cooldown. If Initiative were a cooldown, Chill would affect how quickly it regenerates. Chill does not affect how quickly Initiative regenerates. This has been mentioned several times in the past by people seeking to foster nerfs upon Thieves, and the dev team has stated that it’s intentional that Chill be less effective against Thieves than other classes.

and are effected by interruptions[sometimes] when AA’s are not[you can go right back to bashing #1 after a rupt].

Thief weapon skills suffer no special effects from interruptions at all. There is never a cooldown attached to them beyond the traditional “you are stunned, all your skills are on cooldown until the stun ends” visual effect. They behave identically to auto-attacks in that respect.

This is not a thread saying the initial PB was the most balanced version of it, however it went from being OP to UP. If you’d like to contribute to the argument of why thief skills shouldn’t be effected by PB, go ahead, but attempt not to say A=Z or attack the topic by arguing there’s a bias behind it. There’s always a bias behind something, but sometimes, despite the bias, the opinion is reasonable. Sometimes not. Discuss with logic to prove or disprove the point, not the person presenting it.

I’m fine with using logic. That’s what I’ve been doing here. Thief weapon skills have no cooldowns. Initiative is not a cooldown, as Chill has never affected it. Initiative is a class mechanic that replaces cooldowns. Mechanically, Thief weapon skills behave identically to auto-attacks on other classes. This was clearly seen with the initial introduction of Power Block. When the change was applied to fix it, it was explicitly stated by the devs that Power Block was not meant to work on either auto-attacks or Thief weapon skills.

If you feel that the trait is worthless because half the skills on the skill bar of one class cannot be affected by it, then chances are the trait is not one that you would pick even if that wasn’t the case. Wouldn’t Hide in Shadows be a better thing to try to interrupt, anyway, with its slow casting time, clear tell and the knowledge that locking a Thief out of his heal/stealth combo is going to mean a dead thief? You can already do that with Power Block as it is.

I know that the Dev’s said this is how it’s supposed to be. I’m saying that I believe their decision was wrong. And, mechanically speaking, you are correct in how thief skills behave[using “thief skills” just as a generalization] identically to AA’s. I believe that the lack of counterplay for interrupt-type builds against thief skills should be addressed as a whole, but am focusing mainly on PB at the moment.

Everything you’ve said is mostly correct. We can still interrupt utilities and heals, but that’s the same for every class. Should thief be exempt from any punishing effect when their weapon skills are interrupted? My opinion is no, and that they should either be given the CD on at least Power Block’s interrupts or at least the Devs should create a system for which initiative interacts with interrupts, such as losing one point of initiative when interrupted, and 2 if PB interrupted.

Also, I’d probably not use the trait myself, but I’d like for the change nonetheless. And, on the same note, I believe even if a 5 second CD on PB interrupt was implemented, thieves wouldn’t be any less strong. If a single skill being locked for a short duration was an “auto-lose” for the class, well, I don’t think that’s the case. Thus, this change would not be as big of a deal to the thief as many seem to be making it out to be, nor will this be any huge buff to the mesmer against thieves.

Dondagora.9645:

Ravenmoon.5318:

I see you guys struggle with English words, here let me help you:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/instant

get rekt m8 lol

Continue to call us stupid, please.

I can only assume what you mean with this, but I’ll take a stab in the dark: Thief weapon skills are instant? Sure, some are, but some can be interrupted in their 1/4-3/4 of a second cast time. If not, please, elaborate on whatever you were trying to say, because a definition of a word isn’t usually counted as a proper explanation without context.

Well, the trait increases cooldown time, not cast time. English man, learn it.

“Thieves are the very reason most classes run bunker builds, because other than mediguard and maybe a well played berk warrior, thief hunts all others out of the meta.”

So are you implying that when there is no thief on the enemy team people begin to change bunch of traits and amulets?

Thief is the squishiest class. If you can’t burst down a thief down, git gud m8.

Oh wait … the average thief is better than the LB #2 spamming braindead ranger. Oh I see….thief requires you to be a better player to be viable and thus most of you fight against good players, while some of you only think they are good players and should win thief by pressing F1. I see what you did there :P

P.S: You hardly ever interrupt a thief weapon ability btw. Most skills give you evasion while they are being casted.

P.S.S: I can’t remember the last time any class interrupting me lately :O Seriously, how do you interrupt heartseeker or infiltrator strike or pistol whip or death blossom or shadow shot or headshot. <o> Think you can break the cloak & dagger but idk you have to be super lucky

https://youtu.be/9_Tl5b3fJq4?t=25s
https://youtu.be/9_Tl5b3fJq4?t=2m30s

Not saying those thieves or myself are good, but you see me interrupting Flanking Strike and Heartseeker (the latter even twice in a row). Heartseeker especially is pretty easy to interrupt if you watch for it.

Pistol Whip has a ramp up time where it doesn’t evade and i believe Death Blossom has an aftercast that you can interrupt.
/edit: Death Blossom probably has a short ramp up, too, now that i think about it. I don’t see that many thieves use it, though.

Shadow Shot and Headshot are both instant, so you can’t interrupt them. Infiltrator’s Strike is instant, but Infiltrator’s Return isn’t and can be interrupted.

First I find it funny that ppl refer to skills 6-10 can be interrupted.

So let’s observe frequently used skills:

• Withdraw —> evades, no interrupt
• Shadow refuge —> 1/4s cast time. It can be interrupted at times, but it’s more luck than anything. It follows no rotation and can be used by a thief at any time. So it is not even predictable
• Shadow Step —> can not be interrupted
• Hide in Shadows —> yes, can easily be interrupted
• Signets —> have no cast time according to wiki, so no, can not be interrupted.
• Basilisk Weapon —> Yep, can be interrupted, but is often cast out of combat range or in stealth

So in practice, only a minimum of those skills are really susceptible to interruption. And this would be fine. But Power block not working on weapon skills and utilities mostly immune to interruption, makes this trait basically worthless against thieves.

So imo the trait should be changed. Make it a master or even adept trait or change, what it does or make it effect thieves. In the current state, the trait is simply not used, because every other GM trait is more useful.

Quadox.7834:

Archaon.9524:

Dondagora.9645:

I didn’t want to bump an old thread.

Power Block is a Mesmer GM Trait that increases the CD of interrupted skills from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. This does not work on thief weapon skills because, according to ANet, thieves don’t have CDs in the first place.

Anyway, here’s the thing, Power Block doesn’t work on thieves because ANet says thieves don’t have CD. Power Block’s tooltip says it increases the interrupted CD duration, so if it normally increase 5 to 10, then logically it should increase 0 to 5. So I see no reason this shouldn’t work this way. Thieves will get a mere 5 second CD when they usually get none? Meh, I don’t see how it would completely destroy thieves. Oh, but they lose initiative when you interrupt them in the first place, you say? Well, not always[a bug or something, they don’t lose initiative a lot of the time when they’re interrupted] and that goes for everyone[“Aw, but warriors already get a 5 second CD when they’re interrupted~” sounds ridiculous, really. Same thing for thief initiative loss when rupted, in the case that they actually lost it].

So, what’re your opinions, arguments, mesmer-hate, and thief-fanboyism you have for this topic?

PS, I don’t hate thieves, just annoyed about a trait tailored to ignore them.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block

It’s just original cd x some fixed % (Maybe 100% so it doubles but i don’t really know) for 10 secs, so you get let’s say x2 cd on that skill for 10 sec…

and last time i checked 0 (Thief skill’s cd) multiplied by any number (The constant % cd increase during dat 10 secs) still equals to…guess what? Exactly…

\thread

How do you know the specifics on how this trait works, that it works in percent?

because if it’s supposed to work like this (As devs already said is working as intended) it’s pretty obvious must be something like that

TyPin.9860:

So imo the trait should be changed. Make it a master or even adept trait or change, what it does or make it effect thieves. In the current state, the trait is simply not used, because every other GM trait is more useful.

So .. because thief can’t get interrupted (as intended) all other classes should suffer?
Impeccable logic right there, sir.

I main thief – I think the argument against OP that since there is “no cooldown on thief weapon skills this is working as designed and /thread” is simply a strawman argument. The point OP is making is that mesmer have a GM trait that does not work effectively against a class because of the way the trait and thief class mechanics are designed. I think it’s a valid complaint and I would argue that the trait (and chill) should have some kind of impact on initiative (trait eats some, chill slows generation of).

Archaon.9524:

Quadox.7834:

Archaon.9524:

Dondagora.9645:

I didn’t want to bump an old thread.

Power Block is a Mesmer GM Trait that increases the CD of interrupted skills from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. This does not work on thief weapon skills because, according to ANet, thieves don’t have CDs in the first place.

Anyway, here’s the thing, Power Block doesn’t work on thieves because ANet says thieves don’t have CD. Power Block’s tooltip says it increases the interrupted CD duration, so if it normally increase 5 to 10, then logically it should increase 0 to 5. So I see no reason this shouldn’t work this way. Thieves will get a mere 5 second CD when they usually get none? Meh, I don’t see how it would completely destroy thieves. Oh, but they lose initiative when you interrupt them in the first place, you say? Well, not always[a bug or something, they don’t lose initiative a lot of the time when they’re interrupted] and that goes for everyone[“Aw, but warriors already get a 5 second CD when they’re interrupted~” sounds ridiculous, really. Same thing for thief initiative loss when rupted, in the case that they actually lost it].

So, what’re your opinions, arguments, mesmer-hate, and thief-fanboyism you have for this topic?

PS, I don’t hate thieves, just annoyed about a trait tailored to ignore them.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block

It’s just original cd x some fixed % (Maybe 100% so it doubles but i don’t really know) for 10 secs, so you get let’s say x2 cd on that skill for 10 sec…

and last time i checked 0 (Thief skill’s cd) multiplied by any number (The constant % cd increase during dat 10 secs) still equals to…guess what? Exactly…

\thread

How do you know the specifics on how this trait works, that it works in percent?

because if it’s supposed to work like this (As devs already said is working as intended) it’s pretty obvious must be something like that

Why do you multiply by 0 ? Does the 0 represent the cooldown of the interrupted skill? It definately does not work this way…

Considering how hard thieves counter mesmers, there was no reason for them to change it. Plus I think thieves already get quite a big advantage by being basically immune to chill’s cooldown reduction for their weapon skills (and also mostly immune to the movement reduction, since their gap closers are unaffected by it due to being teleports rather than movement skills).

Leadfoot.9071:

I main thief – I think the argument against OP that since there is “no cooldown on thief weapon skills this is working as designed and /thread” is simply a strawman argument. The point OP is making is that mesmer have a GM trait that does not work effectively against a class because of the way the trait and thief class mechanics are designed. I think it’s a valid complaint and I would argue that the trait (and chill) should have some kind of impact on initiative (trait eats some, chill slows generation of).

This is a great suggestion and I know I’ve seen this before in previous discussions in the mesmer forums. At the very least they could implement some additional initiative burn when interrupted. That would seem like a good first step, and may be enough to make the trait worthwhile.

It doesnt make sense for a thief to spend initiative to use an attack, get interrupted, and then have that skill set on CD for 10 seconds. That would be doubly punishing the thief.

If you’d like to propose a way to refund initiative on interrupted attacks since that mechanic is necessary for -all- thief left-bar skills, then perhaps it would be considerable.

Apart from that, no thanks.

Besides, cooldown for thief skills is not 0, it is null. It doesnt exist. You cant add time to null.

Ravenmoon.5318:

TyPin.9860:

So imo the trait should be changed. Make it a master or even adept trait or change, what it does or make it effect thieves. In the current state, the trait is simply not used, because every other GM trait is more useful.

So .. because thief can’t get interrupted (as intended) all other classes should suffer?
Impeccable logic right there, sir.

Why should the other professions suffer? That would depend of the nature on the change, would it not?

Right now no1 uses it. The trait is of no use in PvE. It might have some use in sPvP, where it won’t be used by mesmers, because their “greatest adversary” is virtually immune to it. And what use does it have in WvW? Roaming is the same as PvP: Thief is immune. And large scale WvW: Against good groups it does almost nothing (stabi). Against bad groups… well… it is not needed.

This trait, if thief is intended to not be interrupted, makes no sense. With the same trait investment you get, to remain interrupter, confounding suggestion. Which would be even helpful against thieves.

In fact ANet logic is flawed, because they introduced a trait, that has by design absolutely no usage. But ANet seems to have problems with Mesmer anyways, as apparent by certain changes like Mimic.

But it’s okay to leave thieves immune against any kind of counter play… let’em spam away. As this seems totally okay…

Well, Power Block could just give 5s cd to thief weapon skills. This way it would simply add +5s to the normal interrupted cd (which is 5s for every other class, 0s for thief) and would actually do something.

Besides, cooldown for thief skills is not 0, it is null. It doesnt exist. You cant add time to null.

Well, for once, this is not Java and even then, you would get a NullPointerException trying to calculate 2*null, so it seems to be an actual 0 instead

Iavra.8510:

Well, Power Block could just give 5s cd to thief weapon skills. This way it would simply add +5s to the normal interrupted cd (which is 5s for every other class, 0s for thief) and would actually do something.

[Edited] Unless the calculation is not done specifically for thieves.

Concession on the exception (though the literal value of whatever the thief cooldown is was not what I was getting at).

Their skills spend from the initiative pool before they are used, so again, adding cd to that would be doubly punishing the thief.

This is growing asinine, so lets wrap everything up into 1 neat little post.

OP’s initial question was “Why does PB not affect thieves”. It was explained that it does not effect thief weapon skills because thief weapon skills do not have a CD that can be increased.

OP then changed/clarified his point to say that he feels PB should affect thieves. All it takes is a basic knowledge of how thief was designed to understand why this is a bad idea.

When every other class besides thief was being designed, their Weapon skills (WS) were designed with CD’s. They were designed to have kitten CD on interrupt because their skills already had CD’s. Their damage, effects, CD, range and all other attributes were designed, playtested and balanced with this in mind. PB changing the interrupt timer from 5s to 10s makes sense in these cases, because it’s a trait designed to increase the punishment for being interrupted.

When thief was designed, their WS were designed to not have any CD. Their damage, effects, CD, range and all other attributes were designed, playtested and balanced with this in mind. PB adding a CD to skills designed to have no CD at all is much more powerful than adding 5s to the CD of skills intended to suffed a CD on interrupt because of how the skills were designed. This is why PB does not and should not affect thief WS.

It does not matter that “Thief already has an advantage against Mesmer, why do they get this too?” – this isn’t a class balance decision, it’s a decision concerning basic mechanics of the game. You can’t add a CD to a skill that was designed, playtested and balanced with No CD in mind

This argument also extends to chill, which other players have brought up. Causing cooldowns to tick more slowly is in no way comparable to slowing down initiative – against CD’s, chill causes those individual CD’s to tick at a slower rate – against initiative, slowing down initiative regen slows down the thief’s ability to use any of his skills across both weaponsets. It’s easy to see how different the power level of those 2 scenarios is, hence why chill does not affect thief WS.

Also note that it’s disingenuous to claim that thief is “immune” to PB and Chill – their heal, utilities and elite are all effected by both effects. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to why? Don’t worry, I’ll just tell you – because those skills were designed, playtested and balanced with Cool down timers and 5s cd on interrupt in mind.

If you’re still not convinced, I honestly don’t care, unless of course you have some sort of logical argument to back it up. Note that “But thieves already hard counter mesmers” is not a qualifying argument, and neither is “Why do thieves get to be special”?

You make it sound as if thieves are designed to not be interruptable, yet i can perfectly interrupt every skill used by them that is not instant (like with any other class) and have other traits, say Chaotic Interruption, apply.

Iavra.8510:

Well, Power Block could just give 5s cd to thief weapon skills. This way it would simply add +5s to the normal interrupted cd (which is 5s for every other class, 0s for thief) and would actually do something.

Besides, cooldown for thief skills is not 0, it is null. It doesnt exist. You cant add time to null.

Well, for once, this is not Java and even then, you would get a NullPointerException trying to calculate 2*null, so it seems to be an actual 0 instead

Thankfully, Gw2 is coded in C/C++ where nullptr basically equals 0

@TyPin – Its not the first trait that has 0 viability. Especially in the grandmaster slot. Its more of a design hindsight rather than a bug. Why would every profession suffer If it is moved to adept line? Well probably because every semi-braindead mesmer would be running interrupt build then and the only viable class will be the thief. Due to mechanics.

Iavra.8510:

You make it sound as if thieves are designed to not be interruptable, yet i can perfectly interrupt every skill used by them that is not instant (like with any other class) and have other traits, say Chaotic Interruption, apply.

I would have thought with all the bold parts specifically talking about CD’s it would have been abundantly clear, but nevertheless I’ve edited the original text in an attempt to be completely unambiguous for you good sir.

Does Chaotic Interruption affect Cool Downs (which thieves don’t have on their WS)?
No? Well then there’s your answer.

evilapprentice.6379:

You can’t add a CD to a skill that was designed, playtested and balanced with No CD in mind

Sure you can, they “designed, playtested and balanced” every skill, every trait, every mechanic before launch, guess what they got it wrong, horribly wrong in many cases, which is why numerous skills, numerous traits and even mechanics have been scrapped, redesigned and rebalanced, that they “designed, playtested and balanced” pre-launch is meaningless, by your “logic” they would change nothing.

zinkz.7045:

evilapprentice.6379:

You can’t add a CD to a skill that was designed, playtested and balanced with No CD in mind

Sure you can, they “designed, playtested and balanced” every skill, every trait, every mechanic before launch, guess what they got it wrong, horribly wrong in many cases, which is why numerous skills, numerous traits and even mechanics have been scrapped, redesigned and rebalanced, that they “designed, playtested and balanced” pre-launch is meaningless, by your “logic” they would change nothing.

You’re talking specific skills, effects, their durations, and the like – minor changes as far as the games mechanics go. I’m talking the design philosophy behind an entire class – major changes as far as the games mechanics go.

You show me an instance where they completely overhauled a class mechanic and I’ll agree with you. Til then, you’re extrapolating that since the game has had small changes, it’s perfectly logical for them to make a major change to a classes basic design.

It’s also possible you underestimate how major adding a CD to skills designed to have no CD is. That is not a minor change – you’re not tweaking damage, condition duration/application, or evade frames. You’re changing the entire dynamic of how the class works, it is a major change.

Ravenmoon.5318:

@TyPin – Its not the first trait that has 0 viability. Especially in the grandmaster slot. Its more of a design hindsight rather than a bug. Why would every profession suffer If it is moved to adept line? Well probably because every semi-braindead mesmer would be running interrupt build then and the only viable class will be the thief. Due to mechanics.

Moving it to adept or master was one of my suggestions, not the only one. However, it all depends on what it is changed with. Lockdown builds take significant dmg boost from halting strike, which is an adept trait. So in the adept level it would have serious competition and might still not be picked. In fact the domination trait line has several good traits that compete with each other and most of the time you must make a pick even with 6 points invested. Moving it to adept might not even change anything for builds… it just would give proper credit to the actual value of the trait…

It also depends on what will be moved to grandmaster instead.

@Initiative loss on interrupt:
This is a weak argument, since it depends on the actual skill used and often the initiative isn’t even spend if the skill was interrupted. Also this has nothing to do with the trait. Normal skills suffer a 5 seconds cool down when interrupted and thief skills suffer (ideally, but in practice this seems different) wasted initiative.

This is before the trait Power Block even applies. Power block cause more “suffering” to normal skills on interrupt, why is it, that thieves should be immune to this trait. An essential aspect of many (if not most or even all) Mesmer PvP builds is how well can they do against thieves. For Power Block virtually doesn’t effect thieves, it is a worthless GM trait. Nothing would change, if it simply disappeared.

evilapprentice.6379:

zinkz.7045:

evilapprentice.6379:

You can’t add a CD to a skill that was designed, playtested and balanced with No CD in mind

Sure you can, they “designed, playtested and balanced” every skill, every trait, every mechanic before launch, guess what they got it wrong, horribly wrong in many cases, which is why numerous skills, numerous traits and even mechanics have been scrapped, redesigned and rebalanced, that they “designed, playtested and balanced” pre-launch is meaningless, by your “logic” they would change nothing.

You’re talking specific skills, effects, their durations, and the like – minor changes as far as the games mechanics go. I’m talking the design philosophy behind an entire class – major changes as far as the games mechanics go.

You show me an instance where they completely overhauled a class mechanic and I’ll agree with you. Til then, you’re extrapolating that since the game has had small changes, it’s perfectly logical for them to make a major change to a classes basic design.

It’s also possible you underestimate how major adding a CD to skills designed to have no CD is. That is not a minor change – you’re not tweaking damage, condition duration/application, or evade frames. You’re changing the entire dynamic of how the class works, it is a major change.

I’m not extrapolating anything, your argument has no basis, that they “designed, playtested and balanced” everything pre-launch is meaningless, it does not equate to what they designed as being balanced or well designed, and that applies to class mechanics just as much skills, traits, combat mechanics etc.

Frankly I’d say part of the balance issues with this game are down to class mechanics that don’t work well or are too strong.

So yes adding a CD to thief skills on this trait could be too much, on other hand it might not be, just because they didn’t have it launch is not a logical argument not to change things, unless you are suffering from the delusion that they achieved perfection at launch.

zinkz.7045:

evilapprentice.6379:

zinkz.7045:

evilapprentice.6379:

You can’t add a CD to a skill that was designed, playtested and balanced with No CD in mind

Sure you can, they “designed, playtested and balanced” every skill, every trait, every mechanic before launch, guess what they got it wrong, horribly wrong in many cases, which is why numerous skills, numerous traits and even mechanics have been scrapped, redesigned and rebalanced, that they “designed, playtested and balanced” pre-launch is meaningless, by your “logic” they would change nothing.

You’re talking specific skills, effects, their durations, and the like – minor changes as far as the games mechanics go. I’m talking the design philosophy behind an entire class – major changes as far as the games mechanics go.

You show me an instance where they completely overhauled a class mechanic and I’ll agree with you. Til then, you’re extrapolating that since the game has had small changes, it’s perfectly logical for them to make a major change to a classes basic design.

It’s also possible you underestimate how major adding a CD to skills designed to have no CD is. That is not a minor change – you’re not tweaking damage, condition duration/application, or evade frames. You’re changing the entire dynamic of how the class works, it is a major change.

I’m not extrapolating anything, your argument has no basis, that they “designed, playtested and balanced” everything pre-launch is meaningless, it does not equate to what they designed as being balanced or well designed, and that applies to class mechanics just as much skills, traits, combat mechanics etc. In fact I’d say a lot of the issues with this game are down to class mechanics that don’t work well or are too strong.

So yes adding a CD to thief skills could be too much, on other hand it might not be, just because they didn’t have it launch is not a logical argument not to change things, unless you are suffering from the delusion that they achieved perfection at launch.

You show me an instance where they completely overhauled a class mechanic and I’ll agree with you. Til then, you’re extrapolating that since the game has had small changes, it’s perfectly logical for them to make a major change to a classes basic design.

Bolded the important part, I’m guessing you missed it the first time.

My Pikachus Thunderbolt doesn’t work on Ground pokemon.
My Ground pokemons Earthquake doesn’t work on Flying pokemon.
How dare intentional design work.

My 2s Stun is only stunning Tyr for 1 second when his passive is to only be stunned for 1 second. God kitten design.

My damage buff isn’t making me do more damage to the Endure Pain warrior… How dare Endure pain work as its supposed to?

My Cooldown Extender isn’t hurting Initiative. How dare intentional design work.
My Cooldown extender does work on Hide in Shadows…how dare that work.

Q_Qing because things work as they’re supposed to work.

Stay Salty.

evilapprentice.6379:

You show me an instance where they completely overhauled a class mechanic and I’ll agree with you. Til then, you’re extrapolating that since the game has had small changes, it’s perfectly logical for them to make a major change to a classes basic design.

Bolded the important part, I’m guessing you missed it the first time.

I’m guessing you missed it the first time, your bolded part has as much relevance to the logic of the argument I put as asking me to name ten Steven Spielberg films, which is none, so I’ll post it again:

I’m not extrapolating anything, your argument has no basis, that they “designed, playtested and balanced” everything pre-launch is meaningless, it does not equate to what they designed as being balanced or well designed, and that applies to class mechanics just as much skills, traits, combat mechanics etc. In fact I’d say a lot of the issues with this game are down to class mechanics that don’t work well or are too strong.

So yes adding a CD to thief skills on this trait could be too much, on other hand it might not be, just because they didn’t have it launch is not a logical argument not to change things, unless you are suffering from the delusion that they achieved perfection at launch.

ensoriki.5789:

My Cooldown Extender isn’t hurting Initiative. How dare intentional design work.
My Cooldown extender does work on Hide in Shadows…how dare that work.

Ever tried interrupting Hide in Shadows? You expect me to slot a 6 trait points skill on the off chance to actually hit a Hide in Shadows interrupt? Or maybe I should interupt a 0s cast time signet? There are sime thief utilities, that can be interrupted. However, they are not that common or even usually cast out of combat range…

As I said: One of Mesmer’s central concerns is thief in PvP. Adding a trait to Mesmer, that virtually doesn’t effect thieves is simply worthless.

Also, nobody claims that this isn’t working as intended. However, the thought process behind the intention is already flawed for explained reason. The trait simply is wasted data space. Removing it wouldn’t change anything because for explained reason (almost) no1 uses it…

EDIT:
Confused Hide in Shadows with Shadow Refuge^^

TyPin.9860:

Ever tried interrupting Hide in Shadows? You expect me to slot a 6 trait points skill on the off chance to actually hit a Hide in Shadows interrupt?

So you cannot interrupt a 1s cast glowy blue effect Hide in Shadows skill ? And you want to interrupt the thief weapon skills which more often than not have 1/4s to 3/4s cast time ?

shimmerless.4560:

Jelzouki.4128:

Quadox.7834:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Oh look, thieves have executioner grandmaster trait, but you can make a distortion and avoid the dps. Welp … lets buff that GRANDMASTER trait and have it hit people through blocks and evasions and stuff. Yeah, seems fair!

Pretty sure every class can complain of other classes negating their grandmaster traits.
You can hardly get a bunker guard below the health threshold for the execution to work … OMG OMG NERF BUNKER GUARD BECAUSE THIS WAY HE EFFECTIVELY NEGATES EXECUTIONER TRAIT

wait what? o.O

Now if you are done posting jibberish, accept a simple truth. If you can’t beat a thief, you are not good enough. Also, there are classes/builds you simply can’t defeat in 1on1. Every thief lives with this mindset. Learn to do it as well.

/Thread.

P.S: Plus you are talking out of your kitten . Take D/P thief for example. If he fires Headshot at you and you block it, he is 4 initiative back. Maybe create a thief before posting bullkitten?

Also its like 99% of you thief crybabies forget that thieves get Revealed debuff on out of stealth anything…

What the actual kitten, this is not even remotely the same. lol.

It actually is in fact the same. Someone in this thread made the plea that a class avoiding another class’ GM trait is poor design or unbalanced or whatever.

No, it’s a completely ridiculous non-argument. Executioner is “mitigated” by distortion in the same sense that it’s mitigated by a Warrior immunity or a blind or mist form. The interrupt trait is a very clear example of one class being given carte blanche to a major trait investment for no real reason. (It’s not as though 30 Dom isn’t glassy enough to begin with).

By the way the trait originally worked on said skills upon release. It was only changed because it caused Groucharoo took a dirt nap on his Teef in solo queue.

Distortion or blind are skills that need to be set up and applied (clones present for an f4 shatter which has a cd, blind targeted and landed from a skill that has a cd). Thieves being “immune” to Power Block has nothing to do with skills, activations, setting up, or landing anything. Nothing is required. Except rolling the class, which is exactly the problem -_-u

There’s been some terrible arguments in this thread in favor of thief but this was one of the worst to crop up multiple times.

Well, if people are still intent on it affecting thief weapon skills, then I’ll go back to what I said earlier. It needs to affect auto-attacks as well, as they’re mechanically identical to thief weapon skills. Why is it fair that using Power Block on someone using Spatial Surge doesn’t add a cooldown? Why do seven out of eight classes have a whole tenth of their skill bar that is immune to Power Block?

Everyone loves the idea of change until it winds up hurting them. Then, suddenly, they backpedal.

I vote it makes their next initiative using skill cost double;)

The original question wasn’t asking WHY it doesn’t work, was asking if this is good design and if not what should be changed.

I feel that putting a skill on a 5 sec (dat censor doe) CD and refunding half the initiative lost doesn’t seem all that unfair, but I’ll readily admit that I haven’t played enough of my thief to be certain. Right now there’s nearly no difference between interrupting a Thief and simply dodging the attack.

Xiahou Mao.9701:

Well, if people are still intent on it affecting thief weapon skills, then I’ll go back to what I said earlier. It needs to affect auto-attacks as well, as they’re mechanically identical to thief weapon skills. Why is it fair that using Power Block on someone using Spatial Surge doesn’t add a cooldown? Why do seven out of eight classes have a whole tenth of their skill bar that is immune to Power Block?

Everyone loves the idea of change until it winds up hurting them. Then, suddenly, they backpedal.

I have absolutely no issue with the trait affecting Mesmer skills the same way it would anyone else. That’s bearing in mind that Mesmers get boned by interrupt specs the worst already (they have some of the most telegraphed skills and no real condition removal).

Xiahou Mao.9701:

Well, if people are still intent on it affecting thief weapon skills, then I’ll go back to what I said earlier. It needs to affect auto-attacks as well, as they’re mechanically identical to thief weapon skills. Why is it fair that using Power Block on someone using Spatial Surge doesn’t add a cooldown? Why do seven out of eight classes have a whole tenth of their skill bar that is immune to Power Block?

Everyone loves the idea of change until it winds up hurting them. Then, suddenly, they backpedal.

Let me say this: 8/8 classes would then have 1/10 of their skill bar that isn’t affected by interrupt. Every single one, not 7/8. This is also not about things affecting me. If you want to suggest a thing affecting me, make a thread about the particular topic, I’ll give it a minute of thought and post my opinion on the matter while considering the change as objectively as possible.

And this was not a thread meant to attack thieves either. I want a Mesmer GM to work against them, sure, but that’s just because I want the GM to be effective.

I am also not suggesting that thief skills should have a CD but have come to the opinion that it would be more balanced to have a custom solution tailored for thief balance to appropriately effect them under the circumstance of them being interrupted, however rare that is. It is my opinion, too, that the thief’s skill simply not going off at the time is not of equal proportional punishment in its balance as the balance of every class. However, it is also the opinion of many that having a single skill locked out for a mere 5 seconds[applied by a Power Block interruption] would break the thief’s gameplay. I am skeptical, but I have not played enough thief to make such an opinion on that. It is also the opinion of many that the thief losing the initiative of the skill without the skill activating is enough punishment, or perhaps more so than the other classes. I might agree, however it is untrue that the thief consistently loses initiative for a cast skill upon interruption and many times loses absolutely no initiative, presumably due to the time at which the initiative is paid during the skill. Thus, I have come to an idea on the topic of interrupts against thieves, and two ideas on how Power Block should work. Also note, I know how all this works, as it is part of the design, and many of it is intentional by ANet. I know this, but I do not agree with some of their balance choices or, at least, some of their design choices and offer them more options from which to consider a change of mind.

The main idea I have is to have an interrupt on a thief’s weapon skills, not counting the Auto-Attack(AKA Skill #1), cost 1 Initiative point. As I do not play thief, I can only imagine this to be an annoyance that can hinder the thief but not maim their whole play. Correct me if losing a single point of initiative is much too harsh for the thief.

My ideas on changing Power Block are thus: Firstly is my original point, to add a 5-second CD to interrupted thief skills. This would be locking out a single thief skill for 5 seconds, a hindrance, but I do not believe this would crush thief playstyle but merely hinder it and force a work-around. If not, my second idea is to have an interrupt cost 2 Initiative points instead of the aforementioned 1 Initiative point. This means a PB interrupt is harsher than a normal interrupt, as is intended, and can become an even greater nuisance to the thief. I still believe this won’t force a thief into submission off-the-bat, however I understand why it may be annoying and, in my opinion, is worth that annoyance as a GM trait.

If anyone has any problems with my ideas or what I’ve said, I ask to not assume I’m ignorant, as I like to think I’m open minded, and address your concerns in a clear manner as to what your concern is and why it may be an issue. If you disagree that Power Block should work as I described, attempt to state your thoughts on thief balancing and how Power Block would break it with rational process.

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

I told you, forum thieves are incapable of constructive talks.
Appeals for talks are considered as threats to their class

Well, this subject only targets thieves by circumventing the normal operation of their class skills for the sake of one trait’s perceived inconsistency, so it is a threat to some people.

Add that to the fact that thieves get hit with the nerf stick constantly and you better be prepared to defend anything that cripples them further.

This is hardly a constructive topic, the main point of the whole thing is “I’m confused as to why a class that has its skills not centered around cooldowns don’t get a cooldown Specifically for my classes trait when I interrupt them. The trait is broken because thief (and only thief) weapon skills don’t get a cooldown introduced when I interrupt them, fix it. (even though the utility skills -and- healing skill does)”

Exactly the point. Then why dont you guys suggest another alternative? Since you guys are right, you dont have cds, then cant you suggest any other way for this trait then?

Then this thread will be constructive then.

Instead of acting all defensive and all that. Noone is asking to nerf thieves. Jeezus.

Just have power block initiate a short daze on a small internal cooldown (15-25) when interrupted (consideration given to the animation length of interrupts such as cc)

Then everyone gets the (cooldown) thing without having to rewire stuff.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just have power block initiate a short daze on a small internal cooldown (15-25) when interrupted (consideration given to the animation length of interrupts such as cc)

Then everyone gets the (cooldown) thing without having to rewire stuff.

That’s not a bad idea, actually. Something like…

Power Block: Interrupted opponents are dazed for 3s if they use a skill in the next 5s (10s ICD)

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

I told you, forum thieves are incapable of constructive talks.
Appeals for talks are considered as threats to their class

Well, this subject only targets thieves by circumventing the normal operation of their class skills for the sake of one trait’s perceived inconsistency, so it is a threat to some people.

Add that to the fact that thieves get hit with the nerf stick constantly and you better be prepared to defend anything that cripples them further.

This is hardly a constructive topic, the main point of the whole thing is “I’m confused as to why a class that has its skills not centered around cooldowns don’t get a cooldown Specifically for my classes trait when I interrupt them. The trait is broken because thief (and only thief) weapon skills don’t get a cooldown introduced when I interrupt them, fix it. (even though the utility skills -and- healing skill does)”

Exactly the point. Then why dont you guys suggest another alternative? Since you guys are right, you dont have cds, then cant you suggest any other way for this trait then?

Then this thread will be constructive then.

Instead of acting all defensive and all that. Noone is asking to nerf thieves. Jeezus.

Just have power block initiate a short daze on a small internal cooldown (15-25) when interrupted (consideration given to the animation length of interrupts such as cc)

Then everyone gets the (cooldown) thing without having to rewire stuff.

Thank you azure. How long is the daze tho?

evilapprentice.6379:

StickerHappy.8052:

The OP is not even asking to nerf thieves, HE IS JUST ASKING FOR A GM TRAIT TO WORK PROPERLY

Without any class bias.

Why are thieves being defensive?

The Trait requires you to spend 6 pts sheesh.

Okay, want a fair compromise?

It wont affect thieves, but make it an adept minor trait? Fair enough?

It does work properly.

Thieves have no cooldowns on weapon skills. You can’t increase what doesn’t exist. You’ll note that it works exactly as intended on a thief’s 6-10

Explain how thieves can steal something that doesnt exist then?

StickerHappy.8052:

Exactly the point. Then why dont you guys suggest another alternative? Since you guys are right, you dont have cds, then cant you suggest any other way for this trait then?

Then this thread will be constructive then.

Instead of acting all defensive and all that. Noone is asking to nerf thieves. Jeezus.

Multiple people have made the only suggestion that matters – accept that PB does not affect thief weapon skills because thieves don’t have cooldowns on their weapon skills, and move on to another topic. Of course that’s not what you want to hear, so you dont consider it constructive, since only the way you interpret things has any value.

The trait works on thief skills that have cool downs – that’s the way it’s intended to work. It is functioning as intended. Move on.

Dondagora is a champion of logic. PB not effecting thieves is really really silly and bad design. I had high hopes for PB. They totally destroyed it by smacking a CD on it and having it not effect thieves whatsoever.

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

I told you, forum thieves are incapable of constructive talks.
Appeals for talks are considered as threats to their class

Well, this subject only targets thieves by circumventing the normal operation of their class skills for the sake of one trait’s perceived inconsistency, so it is a threat to some people.

Add that to the fact that thieves get hit with the nerf stick constantly and you better be prepared to defend anything that cripples them further.

This is hardly a constructive topic, the main point of the whole thing is “I’m confused as to why a class that has its skills not centered around cooldowns don’t get a cooldown Specifically for my classes trait when I interrupt them. The trait is broken because thief (and only thief) weapon skills don’t get a cooldown introduced when I interrupt them, fix it. (even though the utility skills -and- healing skill does)”

Exactly the point. Then why dont you guys suggest another alternative? Since you guys are right, you dont have cds, then cant you suggest any other way for this trait then?

Then this thread will be constructive then.

Instead of acting all defensive and all that. Noone is asking to nerf thieves. Jeezus.

Just have power block initiate a short daze on a small internal cooldown (15-25) when interrupted (consideration given to the animation length of interrupts such as cc)

Then everyone gets the (cooldown) thing without having to rewire stuff.

Thank you azure. How long is the daze tho?

No idea. As long as it doesn’t allow stunlocking, it’s fine. I’m partial to ChaosAngel’s idea.

Interrupts can place a token on your opponents bar (like Sigil of Doom) that expires in 5-10 or so seconds, and causes a [x] daze if a skill is used while the token is applied.

I don’t need muscle memory getting in the way of my rotations because suddenly my shadow shot has a CD. If there’s a daze, I can accept that since I can react to that more reliably.

Rome.7124:

evilapprentice.6379:

StickerHappy.8052:

The OP is not even asking to nerf thieves, HE IS JUST ASKING FOR A GM TRAIT TO WORK PROPERLY

Without any class bias.

Why are thieves being defensive?

The Trait requires you to spend 6 pts sheesh.

Okay, want a fair compromise?

It wont affect thieves, but make it an adept minor trait? Fair enough?

It does work properly.

Thieves have no cooldowns on weapon skills. You can’t increase what doesn’t exist. You’ll note that it works exactly as intended on a thief’s 6-10

Explain how thieves can steal something that doesnt exist then?

I’d love to hear his explanation for shadow stepping (on a damage-dealing skill) without a target as well

shimmerless.4560:

Rome.7124:

evilapprentice.6379:

StickerHappy.8052:

The OP is not even asking to nerf thieves, HE IS JUST ASKING FOR A GM TRAIT TO WORK PROPERLY

Without any class bias.

Why are thieves being defensive?

The Trait requires you to spend 6 pts sheesh.

Okay, want a fair compromise?

It wont affect thieves, but make it an adept minor trait? Fair enough?

It does work properly.

Thieves have no cooldowns on weapon skills. You can’t increase what doesn’t exist. You’ll note that it works exactly as intended on a thief’s 6-10

Explain how thieves can steal something that doesnt exist then?

I’d love to hear his explanation for shadow stepping (on a damage-dealing skill) without a target as well

You’ll have to clarify your meaning, because I’m not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean using something like Inf Strike or Shadow shot with no target? Because I fail to see how that applies.

As to quoting Rome, for shame shimmerless. I ’ve disagreed with you in the past, but at least you attempted to remain logically consistent. Are you so out of salient points that you need to rely on semantic arguments devoid of actual logic?