Guild Wars 2

Someone earlier in the thread hit the nail on the head. The first version of Power Block put CDs on rezzing and stomping. I’m guessing that whatever they did to fix that also ended up affecting the thief interaction, and Anet can’t be bothered to refactor the code.

Everyone talking tokens and new effects is wasting time. Because they’re so busy on HoT, the only balancing Anet does right now is number tweaking (think boon/condi duration, CDs, attack radius, etc.).

The upcoming stab change is the first technical addition/rework in over a year. If I had to guess, it was probably only implemented because of some road block with the Revenant.

evilapprentice.6379:

shimmerless.4560:

Rome.7124:

evilapprentice.6379:

StickerHappy.8052:

The OP is not even asking to nerf thieves, HE IS JUST ASKING FOR A GM TRAIT TO WORK PROPERLY

Without any class bias.

Why are thieves being defensive?

The Trait requires you to spend 6 pts sheesh.

Okay, want a fair compromise?

It wont affect thieves, but make it an adept minor trait? Fair enough?

It does work properly.

Thieves have no cooldowns on weapon skills. You can’t increase what doesn’t exist. You’ll note that it works exactly as intended on a thief’s 6-10

Explain how thieves can steal something that doesnt exist then?

I’d love to hear his explanation for shadow stepping (on a damage-dealing skill) without a target as well

You’ll have to clarify your meaning, because I’m not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean using something like Inf Strike or Shadow shot with no target? Because I fail to see how that applies.

As to quoting Rome, for shame shimmerless. I ’ve disagreed with you in the past, but at least you attempted to remain logically consistent. Are you so out of salient points that you need to rely on semantic arguments devoid of actual logic?

You fail to see how it applies? You have a skill that specifically says “shadow step to a foe” that can be used apropos of nothing, where is the consistency here? Can you do this with D/P #3 (which is technically a shadow step, as can be seen by shooting through the walls on clocktower)? No because there is no consistency at all. So many, many skills in GW2 behave the way they do “just because”. Whatever Rome’s history may be, on this issue I’m in complete concurrence.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

I told you, forum thieves are incapable of constructive talks.
Appeals for talks are considered as threats to their class

Well, this subject only targets thieves by circumventing the normal operation of their class skills for the sake of one trait’s perceived inconsistency, so it is a threat to some people.

Add that to the fact that thieves get hit with the nerf stick constantly and you better be prepared to defend anything that cripples them further.

This is hardly a constructive topic, the main point of the whole thing is “I’m confused as to why a class that has its skills not centered around cooldowns don’t get a cooldown Specifically for my classes trait when I interrupt them. The trait is broken because thief (and only thief) weapon skills don’t get a cooldown introduced when I interrupt them, fix it. (even though the utility skills -and- healing skill does)”

Exactly the point. Then why dont you guys suggest another alternative? Since you guys are right, you dont have cds, then cant you suggest any other way for this trait then?

Then this thread will be constructive then.

Instead of acting all defensive and all that. Noone is asking to nerf thieves. Jeezus.

Just have power block initiate a short daze on a small internal cooldown (15-25) when interrupted (consideration given to the animation length of interrupts such as cc)

Then everyone gets the (cooldown) thing without having to rewire stuff.

Thank you azure. How long is the daze tho?

No idea. As long as it doesn’t allow stunlocking, it’s fine. I’m partial to ChaosAngel’s idea.

Interrupts can place a token on your opponents bar (like Sigil of Doom) that expires in 5-10 or so seconds, and causes a [x] daze if a skill is used while the token is applied.

I don’t need muscle memory getting in the way of my rotations because suddenly my shadow shot has a CD. If there’s a daze, I can accept that since I can react to that more reliably.

I like your idea. Best to scrap the original design if it doesn’t work, and even on a ICD this version can be strong. I’d recommend 5 seconds. 10 seconds would mean that you’d be forced to choose between being dazed for 3 seconds or equivalently so for 10 seconds, which could be ridiculous. 5 seconds is easier to let pass[and is also slightly longer than our longest stun], and also the token style debuff would prevent the daze from intersecting with the thing that interrupted.

shimmerless.4560:

evilapprentice.6379:

shimmerless.4560:

Rome.7124:

evilapprentice.6379:

StickerHappy.8052:

The OP is not even asking to nerf thieves, HE IS JUST ASKING FOR A GM TRAIT TO WORK PROPERLY

Without any class bias.

Why are thieves being defensive?

The Trait requires you to spend 6 pts sheesh.

Okay, want a fair compromise?

It wont affect thieves, but make it an adept minor trait? Fair enough?

It does work properly.

Thieves have no cooldowns on weapon skills. You can’t increase what doesn’t exist. You’ll note that it works exactly as intended on a thief’s 6-10

Explain how thieves can steal something that doesnt exist then?

I’d love to hear his explanation for shadow stepping (on a damage-dealing skill) without a target as well

You’ll have to clarify your meaning, because I’m not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean using something like Inf Strike or Shadow shot with no target? Because I fail to see how that applies.

As to quoting Rome, for shame shimmerless. I ’ve disagreed with you in the past, but at least you attempted to remain logically consistent. Are you so out of salient points that you need to rely on semantic arguments devoid of actual logic?

You fail to see how it applies? You have a skill that specifically says “shadow step to a foe” that can be used apropos of nothing, where is the consistency here? Can you do this with D/P #3 (which is technically a shadow step, as can be seen by shooting through the walls on clocktower)? No because there is no consistency at all. So many, many skills in GW2 behave the way they do “just because”. Whatever Rome’s history may be, on this issue I’m in complete concurrence.

You know you’re incorrect when you turn to semantics to defend your (incorrect, non-existent) points.

But since you’ll label that a deflection, we’ll just go ahead and look at how every weapon skills in the game (Well, to my knowledge nearly every) is usable without a target. Every single weapon skills that says “Bla bla your foe” or something to that effect would be unusable without a target according to your “logic”.

I shouldn’t have to explain any further in what ways your point fails to apply here, but I will for funsies. How could a Rangers GS1 Slash possibly work when the skill specifically says “Slash your foe” – there’s no foe to slash! Pressing 1 with no target selected should do literally nothing, since it’s only meant for slashing at your foe (it says it right there in the description!), and you have no foe to slash! I mean honestly, this was particularly poorly thought out, even for these boards.

But I try to be a nice guy. Here’s a link (Official Guild wars2 information,no less) that should clarify for you, completely, why PB doesn’t work on thief weapon skills.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/

Just read the section titled “initiative”.

As a special bonus, reading the section titled “steal” should clear up Rome’s misunderstanding.

stof.9341:

TyPin.9860:

Ever tried interrupting Hide in Shadows? You expect me to slot a 6 trait points skill on the off chance to actually hit a Hide in Shadows interrupt?

So you cannot interrupt a 1s cast glowy blue effect Hide in Shadows skill ? And you want to interrupt the thief weapon skills which more often than not have 1/4s to 3/4s cast time ?

Sry, I confused it with Shadow Refuge^^
However, interrupting thief weapon skills is quite easy… cuz they like to spam certain attack chains. So hitting one of those is easy (if you don’t blow it into evade skills). But yes, Hide in Shadows is an easy to interrupt skill. But it is not used by many thieves I encounter and still leaves the issue, that the majority of thief utility skills, that are present in the meta, have short or even no cast time…

This results in weapon skills being immune to Power Block and also most utilities immune or virtually immune.

anet programmers just failed in coding, sad, but they are simple people) It’s not rocket Earth-Mars, so noone cares if it will not be fixed. Except mesmers, but 100 or 101 bug – does not matter

Iason Evan.3806:

Drennon.7190:

This is now the player vs thief forum. Carry on

You’re right. A class should be immune to a GM Trait. Giving a class carte blanche to another classes’ mechanics is poor design. At the very least it should affect the Thief in some way like loss of Initiative or something.

Well, I mean they’re also immune to the cooldown increasing effect of Chilled, which is kind of kittened.

Chilled should really be modified to increase Initiative Costs as well. And perhaps Power Block could do the same for the effected skill.

I’d rather have a decent immobilize than wasting efforts attempting to ‘interrupt’ a class that is technically immune to it by nature. This goes for any class against a thief, not just mesmer. (Yes, even thief.)

As for my opinion on PB being OP if its affecting thief skills? Not particularly.
Given Daze or Stuns render all skills except stunbreakers unusable for their duration, I still see thieves able to recover from that more times than not with the various methods they have.

A single skill out of 15 for 5 seconds is minor. That’s IF you are lucky enough to interrupt the cast times of most thief skills which are usually about 1/4.
The trait, even if it did work against thieves still isn’t that great. The thief would still have its initiative (unless he used one of the few skills that actually consume initiative during rather than after the cast) and several other skills to utilize.
Also if it happened to be his big opener or finisher, he’ll simply disengage or improvise.

It’s better to focus on bursting back or preventing theirs rather than trying to pick out an individual skill to interrupt with a thief. The only time that an interrupt would be prime would be the stealth heal, its telegraphed and probably one of the longest casting times a thief has to deal with.

I don’t think the trait was ever that great to start off with except the Rezz/Stomp bug if battling a Thief was the intention.

evilapprentice.6379:

Thieves were designed to have access to all of their weapon skills at all points in time, provided they had the initiative. No other class loses as much as a thief by being locked out of 1 weapon skills because their weapon skills were already designed to have cool downs.

Let’s imagine some scenarios.

You PB Infiltrator return – congratulations, you just cut S/D’s effectiveness in half at the minimum.
You PB CnD – congratulations, you just almost completely shut down D/D.
You PB Shadow shot – congratulations, you just cut D/P’s gap closing and half of its defenses.

The developers designed Thief to spam weapon skills – denying access to them is too strong, which is why interrupts do not affect them.

The same thing with chill – increasing CD’s and slowing initiative are not the same thing – they are not comparable.

Interrupts and Chill don’t affect Thieves because the way they were designed makes those effects disproportionately powerful against thieves, not “Just cause”.

If your build relies only on 1 or 2 skills and you can’t do anything without those skills – it’s a good thing if you will be punished by this trait.

The developers designed Thief to spam weapon skills

Oh… Now i regret that i answered you.

Zenith.7301:

God forbid thieves were beholden to the rules of chill and interrupts just like anybody else. But nope.
Thieves are the very reason most classes run bunker builds, because other than mediguard and maybe a well played berk warrior, thief hunts all others out of the meta.

And that’s the only thing that Thieves counter.
/thread

Some intentional designs are bad. If a class has a counter for something another class can do, that’s fine. But we’re talking about a class that has a natural passive counter to both a GM trait that should normally be somewhat decent and a condition that’s main purpose is to give a little breathing time in between skills. Thief, by virtue of their initiative, is able to completely ignore the majority of pain that comes from an interrupt.

Maybe the problem is the manner in which they intentionally designed Thief in the first place. If that’s the case, what can they do in order to make it an even playing field between classes?

Dondagora.9645:

I didn’t want to bump an old thread.

Power Block is a Mesmer GM Trait that increases the CD of interrupted skills from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. This does not work on thief weapon skills because, according to ANet, thieves don’t have CDs in the first place.

Anyway, here’s the thing, Power Block doesn’t work on thieves because ANet says thieves don’t have CD. Power Block’s tooltip says it increases the interrupted CD duration, so if it normally increase 5 to 10, then logically it should increase 0 to 5. So I see no reason this shouldn’t work this way. Thieves will get a mere 5 second CD when they usually get none? Meh, I don’t see how it would completely destroy thieves. Oh, but they lose initiative when you interrupt them in the first place, you say? Well, not always[a bug or something, they don’t lose initiative a lot of the time when they’re interrupted] and that goes for everyone[“Aw, but warriors already get a 5 second CD when they’re interrupted~” sounds ridiculous, really. Same thing for thief initiative loss when rupted, in the case that they actually lost it].

So, what’re your opinions, arguments, mesmer-hate, and thief-fanboyism you have for this topic?

PS, I don’t hate thieves, just annoyed about a trait tailored to ignore them.

That would be fine if every thief weapon would have its own initiative pool.
Right now, it would brokenly broken thieves. Lets say you interrupt 5/6 initiative skill and thief loses 10/12 initiative because power block. You do what then as a thief? Die because someone used 1 skill?

If you interrupt not thief class skill it goes on double cd, he can use other skill who are not on cd, he can wep swap and still try to do something.

As a thief you would be left with nothing. Cant use most of skills because no initiative. Weapon swap and then what, AA? It’s stupid and it wouldn’t work.

Also, guess what? Initiative is not a cooldown. It’s a pool.

Also someone mention Chill, because someone always mentions Chill. It effects thieves speed, steel and utility/elite. It’s also, let me quote wiki “Movement speed decreased by 66%; skill cooldown increased by 66%; stacks duration.”

Initiative is not a cooldown. It’s a pool.

Stop comparing class mechanics.

Bojoo.7819:

That would be fine if every thief weapon would have its own initiative pool.
Right now, it would brokenly broken thieves. Lets say you interrupt 5/6 initiative skill and thief loses 10/12 initiative because power block. You do what then as a thief? Die because someone used 1 skill?

If you interrupt not thief class skill it goes on double cd, he can use other skill who are not on cd, he can wep swap and still try to do something.

As a thief you would be left with nothing. Cant use most of skills because no initiative. Weapon swap and then what, AA? It’s stupid and it wouldn’t work.

Also, guess what? Initiative is not a cooldown. It’s a pool.

Hence I think interrupt causes a 5 seconds CD on thief skill is more reasonable than burning initiative. This makes thieves suffer the same consequences as other classes, no more, no less. But apparently some thieves can’t survive when one or two skills are disabled for 5 seconds, their defensive responses and play on words are hilarious to watch tbh. I can go into chill but our focus is on power block.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Bojoo.7819:

That would be fine if every thief weapon would have its own initiative pool.
Right now, it would brokenly broken thieves. Lets say you interrupt 5/6 initiative skill and thief loses 10/12 initiative because power block. You do what then as a thief? Die because someone used 1 skill?

If you interrupt not thief class skill it goes on double cd, he can use other skill who are not on cd, he can wep swap and still try to do something.

As a thief you would be left with nothing. Cant use most of skills because no initiative. Weapon swap and then what, AA? It’s stupid and it wouldn’t work.

Also, guess what? Initiative is not a cooldown. It’s a pool.

Hence I think interrupt causes a 5 seconds CD on thief skill is more reasonable than burning initiative. This makes thieves suffer the same consequences as other classes, no more, no less. But apparently some thieves can’t survive when one or two skills are disabled for 5 seconds, their defensive responses and play on words are hilarious to watch tbh. I can go into chill but our focus is on power block.

+1

Sadly, probably most Anet developers play thieves, that would explain why the extra treatments given to the class.

Why are thieves crying “We only counter zerkers and not even mediguards, it’s not strong”. Have you considered that thieves with meta spec have insane mobility, stealth openers for team and more? Im sure you could spec fully 1v1 and be as good as many others, but of course you wouldn’t (same as mes specs shatter).

I think PB just should additionally “eat” 2-3 ini (or some ini percentage) on interrupt (except autos). For example: thief with 3 ini left is doing heartseeker and got intterupted = 3 ini left -3 ini spent on HS -2 because of PB trait = -2. I.e. freezed at 0 ini for 2 sec (time to regen ini from -2 to 0). But even this does not make PB GM trait worthwhile. Mb move to adept trait. Or give to it some additional feats: like make dazes (diversion, MoD) unblockable or smth else.

Dondagora.9645:

I didn’t want to bump an old thread.

Power Block is a Mesmer GM Trait that increases the CD of interrupted skills from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. This does not work on thief weapon skills because, according to ANet, thieves don’t have CDs in the first place.

Anyway, here’s the thing, Power Block doesn’t work on thieves because ANet says thieves don’t have CD. Power Block’s tooltip says it increases the interrupted CD duration, so if it normally increase 5 to 10, then logically it should increase 0 to 5. So I see no reason this shouldn’t work this way. Thieves will get a mere 5 second CD when they usually get none? Meh, I don’t see how it would completely destroy thieves. Oh, but they lose initiative when you interrupt them in the first place, you say? Well, not always[a bug or something, they don’t lose initiative a lot of the time when they’re interrupted] and that goes for everyone[“Aw, but warriors already get a 5 second CD when they’re interrupted~” sounds ridiculous, really. Same thing for thief initiative loss when rupted, in the case that they actually lost it].

So, what’re your opinions, arguments, mesmer-hate, and thief-fanboyism you have for this topic?

PS, I don’t hate thieves, just annoyed about a trait tailored to ignore them.

Because it will break the thief class that is why for the most part PB does not affect thieves.

In general, all classes follow the same rules but Anet makes balancing exceptions in cases where it is appropriate. We call these inconsistencies but at the end of the day it is needed.

Take the Mesmer’s Phantasmal Berserker for example (this applies to almost all phantasm summons). This is a two fold attack; the summon and the phant attack. Your skill will fail if the summon does not connect – you are blind or the target is invul. The last time I check, dodging is pretty kitten close to being invul yet the summon still connects. Inconsistent right? This one is in Mesmer favor. It would break the Mesmer class if I can dodge the summons…

Gabriell.4856:

Dondagora.9645:

I didn’t want to bump an old thread.

Power Block is a Mesmer GM Trait that increases the CD of interrupted skills from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. This does not work on thief weapon skills because, according to ANet, thieves don’t have CDs in the first place.

Anyway, here’s the thing, Power Block doesn’t work on thieves because ANet says thieves don’t have CD. Power Block’s tooltip says it increases the interrupted CD duration, so if it normally increase 5 to 10, then logically it should increase 0 to 5. So I see no reason this shouldn’t work this way. Thieves will get a mere 5 second CD when they usually get none? Meh, I don’t see how it would completely destroy thieves. Oh, but they lose initiative when you interrupt them in the first place, you say? Well, not always[a bug or something, they don’t lose initiative a lot of the time when they’re interrupted] and that goes for everyone[“Aw, but warriors already get a 5 second CD when they’re interrupted~” sounds ridiculous, really. Same thing for thief initiative loss when rupted, in the case that they actually lost it].

So, what’re your opinions, arguments, mesmer-hate, and thief-fanboyism you have for this topic?

PS, I don’t hate thieves, just annoyed about a trait tailored to ignore them.

Because it will break the thief class that is why for the most part PB does not affect thieves.

In general, all classes follow the same rules but Anet makes balancing exceptions in cases where it is appropriate. We call these inconsistencies but at the end of the day it is needed.

Take the Mesmer’s Phantasmal Berserker for example (this applies to almost all phantasm summons). This is a two fold attack; the summon and the phant attack. Your skill will fail if the summon does not connect – you are blind or the target is invul. The last time I check, dodging is pretty kitten close to being invul yet the summon still connects. Inconsistent right? This one is in Mesmer favor. It would break the Mesmer class if I can dodge the summons…

PB will break the thief class? Man, talking about exaggeration, not even close… SMH.

Rome.7124:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Bojoo.7819:

That would be fine if every thief weapon would have its own initiative pool.
Right now, it would brokenly broken thieves. Lets say you interrupt 5/6 initiative skill and thief loses 10/12 initiative because power block. You do what then as a thief? Die because someone used 1 skill?

If you interrupt not thief class skill it goes on double cd, he can use other skill who are not on cd, he can wep swap and still try to do something.

As a thief you would be left with nothing. Cant use most of skills because no initiative. Weapon swap and then what, AA? It’s stupid and it wouldn’t work.

Also, guess what? Initiative is not a cooldown. It’s a pool.

Hence I think interrupt causes a 5 seconds CD on thief skill is more reasonable than burning initiative. This makes thieves suffer the same consequences as other classes, no more, no less. But apparently some thieves can’t survive when one or two skills are disabled for 5 seconds, their defensive responses and play on words are hilarious to watch tbh. I can go into chill but our focus is on power block.

+1

Sadly, probably most Anet developers play thieves, that would explain why the extra treatments given to the class.

Can you please elaborate on these “extra treatments” please? I’d love to know what I have in my toolkit. Thanks.

Anet, fix Power Block to affect thief, complete invulnerable to it PLUS stealth is not fair to Mesmers in sPvP.

rchu.8945:

Anet, fix Power Block to affect thief, complete invulnerable to it PLUS stealth is not fair to Mesmers in sPvP.

Yes, because Mesmer’s are in such a poor state?

DeWolfe.2174:

rchu.8945:

Anet, fix Power Block to affect thief, complete invulnerable to it PLUS stealth is not fair to Mesmers in sPvP.

Yes, because Mesmer’s are in such a poor state?

uhh yeah. Mesmers definately do not reign supreme.

DeWolfe.2174:

rchu.8945:

Anet, fix Power Block to affect thief, complete invulnerable to it PLUS stealth is not fair to Mesmers in sPvP.

Yes, because Mesmer’s are in such a poor state?

If you have to ask that question, either you just started playing this game for a short while or you’re in denial.

SMH…

Mak.2657:

I think PB just should additionally “eat” 2-3 ini (or some ini percentage) on interrupt (except autos). For example: thief with 3 ini left is doing heartseeker and got intterupted = 3 ini left -3 ini spent on HS -2 because of PB trait = -2. I.e. freezed at 0 ini for 2 sec (time to regen ini from -2 to 0). But even this does not make PB GM trait worthwhile. Mb move to adept trait. Or give to it some additional feats: like make dazes (diversion, MoD) unblockable or smth else.

Someone brought this up from Mesmer’s sub forum:

Random thought: What about Power Block vs. Revenant? Their utility & elite skills won’t have CD. Given how poorly anet handled this trait vs. thiefs, can we really except anything different?
That would make two classes basically immune to the trait.

Anomaly.7612:

Rome.7124:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Bojoo.7819:

That would be fine if every thief weapon would have its own initiative pool.
Right now, it would brokenly broken thieves. Lets say you interrupt 5/6 initiative skill and thief loses 10/12 initiative because power block. You do what then as a thief? Die because someone used 1 skill?

If you interrupt not thief class skill it goes on double cd, he can use other skill who are not on cd, he can wep swap and still try to do something.

As a thief you would be left with nothing. Cant use most of skills because no initiative. Weapon swap and then what, AA? It’s stupid and it wouldn’t work.

Also, guess what? Initiative is not a cooldown. It’s a pool.

Hence I think interrupt causes a 5 seconds CD on thief skill is more reasonable than burning initiative. This makes thieves suffer the same consequences as other classes, no more, no less. But apparently some thieves can’t survive when one or two skills are disabled for 5 seconds, their defensive responses and play on words are hilarious to watch tbh. I can go into chill but our focus is on power block.

+1

Sadly, probably most Anet developers play thieves, that would explain why the extra treatments given to the class.

Can you please elaborate on these “extra treatments” please? I’d love to know what I have in my toolkit. Thanks.

Chill does not affect thieves like other classes. (no Cd Reduction on weapon skills)
Power Block does not affect Thieves’ weapon skills. ( A Gm Trait) AT THE SAME TIME interrupting commonly used utility skills is a problem too because of insta-casts and very low cast time. So PB will not work on weapon sets AND Utility skills have whack a mole scenario for interrupts.

FYI if you dont know, A GM trait requires full 6 point investment for a trait that exempts another class.

Hitting someone while stealthed but manages to block the thief’s attacks will not reveal them, making them land another shot or BS still from stealth.

What say you?

Yes, I am calling you out.

I actually think Power Block is working as intended, since all skills with no cooldown are immune to power block and general interrupt cooldowns. Not only that, but thieves are not penalized by interrupts by design. The only two abilities that carry any penalty for being interrupted, other than lost casting time, are Heartseeker and Unload.

Thieves are not immune to power block, they are just very poor targets because they only use 1 skill that has a decent cast time and a cooldown and it’s basilisk venom. But if we leave meta-land, a power block on Hide in Shadows would probably kill a Thief every time it lands, and there would be many opportunities to interrupt a trap thief. This complaint seems pretty bogus because power block is a really strong GM trait compared to some others (Assassin’s Equilibrium, please bro), and it’s mostly a complaint about how the current thief meta doesn’t have a target for it.

BTW, you can already build your own power block on thieves (D/P, you can’t interrupt S/D anyway) and you don’t even need the trait.

BP + HS is a 9 initiative combo and it takes a total of 1.25 seconds to complete and it is the most telegraphed ability in the game. Interrupt the heartseeker and the thief doesn’t gain stealth and loses 3 initiative for certain. If the thief is very experienced he can double back on the powder and still gain stealth with a second HS but most will “wtf” and die. This is assuming you didn’t use GS 5 to interrupt him and you don’t follow up with GS 5 or any kind of immob, stun, etc. or simply the second charge of mantra of distraction.

With that done, the thief incurs a total of 9 seconds in cooldowns for all of his weapon skills. Mesmers running mantra of distraction are actually well suited to shut down a D/P thief from stealth without any help from Power Block.

morbidillusion.2759:

I actually think Power Block is working as intended, since all skills with no cooldown are immune to power block and general interrupt cooldowns. Not only that, but thieves are not penalized by interrupts by design. The only two abilities that carry any penalty for being interrupted, other than lost casting time, are Heartseeker and Unload.

Thieves are not immune to power block, they are just very poor targets because they only use 1 skill that has a decent cast time and a cooldown and it’s basilisk venom. But if we leave meta-land, a power block on Hide in Shadows would probably kill a Thief every time it lands, and there would be many opportunities to interrupt a trap thief. This complaint seems pretty bogus because power block is a really strong GM trait compared to some others (Assassin’s Equilibrium, please bro), and it’s mostly a complaint about how the current thief meta doesn’t have a target for it.

BTW, you can already build your own power block on thieves (D/P, you can’t interrupt S/D anyway) and you don’t even need the trait.

BP + HS is a 9 initiative combo and it takes a total of 1.25 seconds to complete and it is the most telegraphed ability in the game. Interrupt the heartseeker and the thief doesn’t gain stealth and loses 3 initiative for certain. If the thief is very experienced he can double back on the powder and still gain stealth with a second HS but most will “wtf” and die. This is assuming you didn’t use GS 5 to interrupt him and you don’t follow up with GS 5 or any kind of immob, stun, etc. or simply the second charge of mantra of distraction.

With that done, the thief incurs a total of 9 seconds in cooldowns for all of his weapon skills. Mesmers running mantra of distraction are actually well suited to shut down a D/P thief from stealth without any help from Power Block.

You answered the unfairness of this trait with your post.

DISCLAIMER: I do not want thieves to be nerfed, I just want a complete working GM trait with no class exceptions.

What you said was clearly right in a sense, but The current status of the PB trait against classes (Revenant says hello in the future) cuts a percentage of build diversity.

Again defending an argument saying that “thieves are immune because of design” is admitting that thieves do not want any constructive arguments since the aspect of the “design rebuttal” limits any more chances for other ideas.

Why not say, “This trait should affect thieves differently by…..”

If this trait behaved differently and AFFECTED ALL CLASSES whether EQUALLY or BY A DIFFERENT EFFECT PER CLASS there will be a chance for a different role for mesmers.

Again, I can’t believe how thieves are acting with these posts, they sound like spoiled little kittens.

No offense pro thief players but if you examine it closely it is US mesmers should be acting defensive.

Why?

Our class mechanic (phantasms) which is also a major source of our damage is hard countered by blinds (which you thieves have an abundance of)

So why are there these narrow minded responses? Are all thieves like this?

@morbid

Building my own PB? how?

Withdraw – Instant
Infil signet – Instant
Shadowstep – Instant
SR – 1/4 cast, very hard to interrupt
BP – Instant

^this is just D/P, excluding HiS if one slots it in and BV.

Thats 9 UNINTERRUPTABLE Skills + Steal

So is there any real reason to trait PB if this is the situation?

and we have S/D which is VERY HARD to land an interrupt if its evaded all time.

I am talking about semi-above average thieves here, pls do not tell L2P or give generic advice against bad thieves.

Ah, Sticker brings up a good point: Many of the thief’s skills are uninterruptible, meaning instant or near so. Thus, even if Power Block affected thieves it would still affect thieves with greater rarity than any other class. Even so, would this change break the profession? I think not, as thieves would still be balanced to counter against this kind of trait. This change will become no thief-killer.

StickerHappy.8052:

DISCLAIMER: I do not want thieves to be nerfed, I just want a complete working GM trait with no class exceptions.

The trait doesn’t have any class exceptions though. There’s no complaint about power block vs. other class auto-attacks. Why? Every ability with no cooldown reacts the same way to power block and every valid power block target a thief uses goes on the 10 second cooldown. The simple fact is that it’s not a good trait choice versus the current thief meta. If hide in shadows was meta, it would be great against them, because PB is awesome against anyone that uses a casted heal.

@morbid

Building my own PB? how?

Withdraw – Instant
Infil signet – Instant
Shadowstep – Instant
SR – 1/4 cast, very hard to interrupt
BP – Instant

Are you dense? Half of my post, which you quoted, explains how you can get many thieves to lose 9 initiative and their attempt at stealthing with a single use of mantra of distraction and guarantee it with with two uses of mantra or GS 5.

So is there any real reason to trait PB if this is the situation?

A 1v1 against a thief? No. There’s also no reason to play a thief in a 1v1 against any class but a thief or mesmer. This game is full of traits that are less potent / almost useless against certain builds and classes. Seriously, how good is PB against a meditation guardian? Their entire heal/utility/elite kit is immune to it and they have way too much offense that even a perfectly interrupted med guard is pumping out tons of DPS. He probably doesn’t even notice you ’rupted him because he made an instant corpse out of you.

What’s your point? Because that’s mine. The effectiveness of PB builds has nothing to do with how it effects thieves and if anyone is acting spoiled it’s the mesmers who think the trait should be buffed because it isn’t strong against meta thief builds. It’s also a trash trait against a lot of other builds.

What about the warrior stun break trait against builds that don’t use stuns? What about the thief 10% damage against targets with condi’s against a D/D ele? What about Assassin’s Equilibrium for every reason imaginable?

and we have S/D which is VERY HARD to land an interrupt if its evaded all time.

Interrupt what, bud? S/D literally has no interruptable abilities. 2 (return) and 4 are both 0.25 seconds and not reasonably interruptable by a human being and CnD is 0.5 seconds and never used. This statement itself shows how little you know about your opponent, something that simply does not work as a lock-down mesmer. Your interrupt got evaded? Guess what, it wasn’t going to interrupt something anyway. You missed.

I am talking about semi-above average thieves here, pls do not tell L2P or give generic advice against bad thieves.

Yeah. And I’m talking about semi-competent mesmers. If you have mantra of distraction and have any decent knowledge of D/P thieves you have a really strong opportunity to shut the class down whenever they lay Black Powder, and it’s also one of the easiest abilities things react to and ’rupt.

morbidillusion.2759:

StickerHappy.8052:

DISCLAIMER: I do not want thieves to be nerfed, I just want a complete working GM trait with no class exceptions.

The trait doesn’t have any class exceptions though. There’s no complaint about power block vs. other class auto-attacks. Why? Every ability with no cooldown reacts the same way to power block and every valid power block target a thief uses goes on the 10 second cooldown. The simple fact is that it’s not a good trait choice versus the current thief meta. If hide in shadows was meta, it would be great against them, because PB is awesome against anyone that uses a casted heal.

@morbid

Building my own PB? how?

Withdraw – Instant
Infil signet – Instant
Shadowstep – Instant
SR – 1/4 cast, very hard to interrupt
BP – Instant

Are you dense? Half of my post, which you quoted, explains how you can get many thieves to lose 9 initiative and their attempt at stealthing with a single use of mantra of distraction and guarantee it with with two uses of mantra or GS 5.

So is there any real reason to trait PB if this is the situation?

A 1v1 against a thief? No. There’s also no reason to play a thief in a 1v1 against any class but a thief or mesmer. This game is full of traits that are less potent / almost useless against certain builds and classes. Seriously, how good is PB against a meditation guardian? Their entire heal/utility/elite kit is immune to it and they have way too much offense that even a perfectly interrupted med guard is pumping out tons of DPS. He probably doesn’t even notice you ’rupted him because he made an instant corpse out of you.

What’s your point? Because that’s mine. The effectiveness of PB builds has nothing to do with how it effects thieves and if anyone is acting spoiled it’s the mesmers who think the trait should be buffed because it isn’t strong against meta thief builds. It’s also a trash trait against a lot of other builds.

What about the warrior stun break trait against builds that don’t use stuns? What about the thief 10% damage against targets with condi’s against a D/D ele? What about Assassin’s Equilibrium for every reason imaginable?

and we have S/D which is VERY HARD to land an interrupt if its evaded all time.

Interrupt what, bud? S/D literally has no interruptable abilities. 2 (return) and 4 are both 0.25 seconds and not reasonably interruptable by a human being and CnD is 0.5 seconds and never used. This statement itself shows how little you know about your opponent, something that simply does not work as a lock-down mesmer. Your interrupt got evaded? Guess what, it wasn’t going to interrupt something anyway. You missed.

I am talking about semi-above average thieves here, pls do not tell L2P or give generic advice against bad thieves.

Yeah. And I’m talking about semi-competent mesmers. If you have mantra of distraction and have any decent knowledge of D/P thieves you have a really strong opportunity to shut the class down whenever they lay Black Powder, and it’s also one of the easiest abilities things react to and ’rupt.

Yes exactly, 1v1 a thief? you said no. I agree, but in conquest you can never really avoid a 1v1 forever, soon enough that time will come. So you are saying too that PB is a worthless trait against thieves?
For the Medi Argument, again good points, but their weapon skills are not immune to PB, so case in point, you can interrupt weapon skills (where most of the damage comes from) to mitigate the damage, so in a way, PB also helps shut down the offence.

For thieves, what does PB do? YES you are right, NOTHING

You said PB has no exceptions? It has, The thief weapon set is immune to PB for that matter, wouldnt you call that an exception? The meta does not dictate it, whatever the meta is, you will be still be immune to PB considering its Trait description and the Initiative mechanic as of now

For the S/D one, AA is still interruptable, but not affected by PB, so case in point it STILL has interruptable sources.

For D/P argument, VERY GOOD POINT, but then again it works the other way around too. A decent thief will know that. How? The MoD icon charge is visible on the “Real Mesmer”, would you Combo BP for stealth if he had that?

Correct me If I’m wrong your post literally says that PB has no great effect (if any at all) against thieves, making your class have a special free pass against it? (PS: im not mad or anything I hope you are too, so please continue)

morbidillusion.2759:

BP + HS is a 9 initiative combo and it takes a total of 1.25 seconds to complete and it is the most telegraphed ability in the game. Interrupt the heartseeker and the thief doesn’t gain stealth and loses 3 initiative for certain. If the thief is very experienced he can double back on the powder and still gain stealth with a second HS but most will “wtf” and die. This is assuming you didn’t use GS 5 to interrupt him and you don’t follow up with GS 5 or any kind of immob, stun, etc. or simply the second charge of mantra of distraction.

With that done, the thief incurs a total of 9 seconds in cooldowns for all of his weapon skills.

• First of all, BP+HS is definitely not the most telegraphed ability in the game.
• It doesn’t take an experienced thief to press 2 again after being dazed by MoD
• The second charge of MoD won’t be off CD before the thief can use HS again (it’s a 1s daze with a 5 second recharge)
• You talk about the thief losing 9s of cooldowns, but completely ignore what the mesmer loses. That number is 50% of a 30s CD skill, so effectively a 15s CD. Adding the GS5 you mentioned, the comparison becomes 12s for thief vs 45 seconds for mesmer

Most thieves (like you) are quick to point out mesmers’ ability to prevent a single stealth attempt, but ignore the CD race over the course of an engagement. If 1 denied stealth killed the thief, it wouldn’t be a problem. Unfortunately that’s not the case (as you correctly point out, only inexperienced thieves “wtf and die”).

StickerHappy.8052:

Yes exactly, 1v1 a thief? you said no. I agree, but in conquest you can never really avoid a 1v1 forever, soon enough that time will come. So you are saying too that PB is a worthless trait against thieves?

Yeah. Unless the meta shifts to using Hide in Shadows or traps or Thieves Guild. Mesmer’s aren’t in good shape, but it’s a pretty much excepted fact that a thief cannot solo anything but thieves or mesmers in sPvP so you’re preaching to the choir about 1v1s. No sympathy here.

You said PB has no exceptions? It has, The thief weapon set is immune to PB for that matter, wouldnt you call that an exception? The meta does not dictate it, whatever the meta is, you will be still be immune to PB considering its Trait description and the Initiative mechanic as of now

The thief weapon set is immune, but the thief is not. The thief weapon set is also (mostly) immune to all interrupts of any kind and there is no argument about that. Thieves gain advantages and disadvantages from the initiative system. Immunity to interrupt cooldown is one of them. This has nothing to do with Power Block.

For the S/D one, AA is still interruptable, but not affected by PB, so case in point it STILL has interruptable sources.

But no class’s AA is affected by PB.

For D/P argument, VERY GOOD POINT, but then again it works the other way around too. A decent thief will know that. How? The MoD icon charge is visible on the “Real Mesmer”, would you Combo BP for stealth if he had that?

In a duel, no. But in any other situation the thief has to attempt to restealth, SS out, or die. D/P thieves cannot brawl for any extend period of time with more than one enemy on the field.

It has do something with power block since the trait effect is for Cooldowns. Thats the matter of this debate.

Uhmm mr morbid, my entire point is not about anything like 1v1s or metas,

I and the enitre mesmer community find it rather absurd that our GM trait have a class exclusion, that is why the existence of this thread.

As a thief, you are also agreeing to me that against thief, mesmer has a really bad spot with them or against them, so with that in mind, our new GM trait is also shying away from a thief.

So as a thief yourself, what changes should you give? just to make the trait not worthless against something.

The problem I have with thieves is that, some of em (or most, forumers mostly) keep saying that this a l2p issue, and acting some aggressive defensive stances against your class, whether it be theory wise or meta wise.

So my final question is, do you think mesmers are in bad spot against thieves like yourself? So what do we do to PB to alleviate that problem?

Stealth doesn’t really have a lot to do with the issues between Thieves and Mesmers.

cyyrix.6105:

• First of all, BP+HS is definitely not the most telegraphed ability in the game.
• It doesn’t take an experienced thief to press 2 again after being dazed by MoD
• The second charge of MoD won’t be off CD before the thief can use HS again (it’s a 1s daze with a 5 second recharge)
• You talk about the thief losing 9s of cooldowns, but completely ignore what the mesmer loses. That number is 50% of a 30s CD skill, so effectively a 15s CD. Adding the GS5 you mentioned, the comparison becomes 12s for thief vs 45 seconds for mesmer

Most thieves (like you) are quick to point out mesmers’ ability to prevent a single stealth attempt, but ignore the CD race over the course of an engagement. If 1 denied stealth killed the thief, it wouldn’t be a problem. Unfortunately that’s not the case (as you correctly point out, only inexperienced thieves “wtf and die”).

1. Dude BP/HS combo is the one ability that no one has any excuse for missing a ‘rupt on. Animations can be hard to recognize, especially when not in ranked PvP and races look different and stuff. BP puts an obvious circle on the Thief’s feet. It’s a huge telegraph.
2. Opinion. Most thieves are HSing and their next move is run in for backstab, or they are popping a teleport to hit with the HS and won’t be able to double-back on the powder. I’d say you need an above average thief to be ready for/anticipate the interrupt.
3. Fair enough. I don’t play mesmer and didn’t know. Thanks.

4. There’s no fair comparison here. The thief loses 9 seconds of cooldowns on every ability on every weapon set. If we want to multiply it out its 90 seconds but that’s not really a legit number is it?

The fact is that a thief who just lost 9 initiative, ate a knockdown/daze, and failed to gain stealth when he needed it is using SR (60s) or SS (50s) to gtfo or dying. It’s an extremely effective interrupt.

I really don’t understand the “thief abilities dont have cooldowns! Thus it can’t increase it!” I mean… Say I have 0 money. Does that mean I can’t get money because I already said I had no money? in this case I really don’t care. I don’t play mes or thief, but I do think immunity to a classes GM is silly. But the arguments used are nothing short of a defense mechanism. According to defenders here if they just reword the trait to “Add 7 seconds of cooldown to any skill interrupted.” Then it’d be totally fine… (Or 1
0 depending on how they wanted to handle it.)

Thieves, like their Mesmer sisters, have already been way overnerfed. Power Block isn’t a particularly good skill in any situation. There are much better options.

Countering thieves is about stopping or evading the stealth/backstab burst. Drop Chaos Storm on yourself. Use sword 3, or the scepter block. That will be far more effective.

Ithilwen.1529:

Thieves, like their Mesmer sisters, have already been way overnerfed. Power Block isn’t a particularly good skill in any situation. There are much better options.

Countering thieves is about stopping or evading the stealth/backstab burst. Drop Chaos Storm on yourself. Use sword 3, or the scepter block. That will be far more effective.

We are not talking about counter measures. We are talking about how to make the Trait fair for everyone.

PB is not good in any situation? You lost credibility in this statement. 10 second CD on heal is painful even for mesmers.

@StickerHappy.8052 What can I say? I disagree. Having mained Mesmer for the majority of my PvP matches.

Also, read more carefully. I said “isn’t a particularly good skill…” I went on to qualify the statement by saying that there are better options.

Is power block a viable skill? probably. I decided not to use it after it was insta nerfed. Do I think there are better things to trait for? yes.

Ithilwen.1529:

@StickerHappy.8052 What can I say? I disagree. Having mained Mesmer for the majority of my PvP matches.

Also, read more carefully. I said “isn’t a particularly good skill…” I went on to qualify the statement by saying that there are better options.

Is power block a viable skill? probably. I decided not to use it after it was insta nerfed. Do I think there are better things to trait for? yes.

You said in any situation. so what does that mean? The problem with the trait is because it does not serve its purpose for all classes, so what if we have a thief in other team’s comp? PB will not affect them so you wont use it,

So what if it affected them? I bet you too would use it on one point or the other. This is the problem we have, we have better options instead of using it because it is broken.

I meant that I consider Power Block an unreasonably weak skill for having to go 6 into a trait line to get it.

In addition, I think thieves are already underpowered, and for that reason I don’t agree that a change that specifically targets thieves should be made.

Ithilwen.1529:

I meant that I consider Power Block an unreasonably weak skill for having to go 6 into a trait line to get it.

In addition, I think thieves are already underpowered, and for that reason I don’t agree that a change that specifically targets thieves should be made.

Thieves underpowered? Maybe thats the reason why almost every team has one?
/smh.
Anyway back to topic

Specifically targeting thieves, it currently ONLY does not affect thieves (weaponset wise).

Hello? /wat /facepalm

I gave my opinion. If you have some thought out counter opinion I’d love to hear it. Sarcasm is meaningless. I think you are a very good Mesmer, have met you in PvP.

That doesn’t mean I agree with you though.

They are just to change the skill like they have been doing every other month with Mesmer. Hell I’m at the point we should all who play mesmer just get a free 80 Scroll to use to a new character.

So far everytime, and I mean EVERYTIME I get gear and items set up for a new build on my mesmer they Train the whole tree and skills with zero lube. I restart from the ground up and right when I make it good again they repeat the process.

Every class has an issue but Mesmers have been slapped around too many times.

morbidillusion.2759:

But no class’s AA is affected by PB.

I think I addressed this: AA’s are a special kind of skill, they’re AA’s. They have their own name to describe them, so they can be differentiated from the rest of a weapon skill bar. Also, every class’s AA’s act the same when interrupted[no extra CD]. The argument here is that thief Initiative skills[which does not include AA’s, as AA’s don’t consume Init], or their generalized “weapon skills”, should not be excepted from PB’s effects. The AA argument is thus not valid as it is a different beast altogether from the 2-5 skills. Also, PB would not be making profession-based exceptions in excluding AA’s as every profession would have equal access to this “exception”.

I know I just took a single bit of your post[and it seems you may have actually been informing Stickers that the AA of thieves really can’t count towards PB’s rupt sources], but wanted to restate this point.

Ithilwen.1529:

I meant that I consider Power Block an unreasonably weak skill for having to go 6 into a trait line to get it.

In addition, I think thieves are already underpowered, and for that reason I don’t agree that a change that specifically targets thieves should be made.

I see your points, and will state some counter points:
1. It is weak, and may still be so if changed. At which point, is there a reason to not change it given that it will still be weak?

2. This is not a change that specifically targets thieves. PB as it is currently specifically exempts thieves from its affects[almost completely]. Therefore, this will simply make PB all-inclusive.

StickerHappy.8052:

Ithilwen.1529:

I meant that I consider Power Block an unreasonably weak skill for having to go 6 into a trait line to get it.

In addition, I think thieves are already underpowered, and for that reason I don’t agree that a change that specifically targets thieves should be made.

Thieves underpowered? Maybe thats the reason why almost every team has one?
/smh.
Anyway back to topic

Specifically targeting thieves, it currently ONLY does not affect thieves (weaponset wise).

Hello? /wat /facepalm

Sticker, take a breath please. Talking smack doesn’t get anywhere and even discourages people from considering your points after they’ve received smack.

My home boy Sticker is spilling some hot bitter truth tea all over this thread!!

In addition, I think thieves are already underpowered, and for that reason I don’t agree that a change that specifically targets thieves should be made.

This is a horrible precedence for balance changes. Skills should work the way they are intended. PB does not work as is intended. I would have rather they gave Mesmers an entirely different gm than the one they got. It’s truly ridiculous.

StickerHappy.8052:

I am talking about semi-above average thieves here, pls do not tell L2P or give generic advice against bad thieves.

Emm?

morbidillusion.2759:

Interrupt what, bud? S/D literally has no interruptable abilities. 2 (return) and 4 are both 0.25 seconds and not reasonably interruptable by a human being and CnD is 0.5 seconds and never used. This statement itself shows how little you know about your opponent, something that simply does not work as a lock-down mesmer. Your interrupt got evaded? Guess what, it wasn’t going to interrupt something anyway. You missed.

morbidillusion.2759:

If you have mantra of distraction and have any decent knowledge of D/P thieves you have a really strong opportunity to shut the class down whenever they lay Black Powder, and it’s also one of the easiest abilities things react to and ’rupt.

morbidillusion.2759:

If the thief is very experienced he can double back on the powder and still gain stealth with a second HS but most will “wtf” and die. This is assuming you didn’t use GS 5 to interrupt him and you don’t follow up with GS 5 or any kind of immob, stun, etc. or simply the second charge of mantra of distraction.

:D

semi-above average thief using unsecured BP+HS combo in aware of enemy mesmer with no-cd MoD charges near? Instead of rerolling to non-unterruptuble sw\d ?

OK, stop joking. Sw\d really very hard to interrupt tbh (but have chance with some flanking strike interrupt practice) .
PB is underwhelming. Abundance of weak traits (of mesmer and other classes) doesn’t make it legit. It needs rework.

Mak.2657:

OK, stop joking. Sw\d really very hard to interrupt tbh (but have chance with some flanking strike interrupt practice) .

Can you hit MoD while a target evades or something? Flanking strike evades for the entire activation time.

PB is underwhelming. Abundance of weak traits (of mesmer and other classes) doesn’t make it legit. It needs rework.

Yeah, it is and it probably does. Engineering a way for it to hit thieves harder isn’t going to suddenly bring it into the meta.