Guild Wars 2

Loboling.5293:

I have been giving it more thought, and I agree with some others here that conditions affecting them will remove them from 95% of the situations I use them for in pve. With already being underused, this would make them nearly-useless (more so than now). So please, if you do decide to go ahead with this in pvp, don’t let the condition change carry over to pve.

Also, its funny, but I hadn’t considered the effect this will have on the elite supply drop. All my builds, except for HGH, run supply drop. Which means, that I’ll be getting nerfed against builds that already gave me trouble (condition necros, condition rangers). I think consider implementing a first change to allow turrets to be crit before implementing the two changes simultaneously. This was you can see how effective critting turrets is, before nerfing engies abilities to survive a condition class. (although probably a minor nerf in all honesty) While allowing players who use turrets in pve to continue to do so, until you decide if implementing another change is needed.

It’s called Karma is a female name Dog! not kitten.

bye bye turrets.

If you follow the same path as other AI’s why not allow boons/healing/effects(venom share,SoV..) on turrets this would make engi more active and maximize potential between them and turrets, something only Spirit Weapons are close to but those are not so good…even other summons are… Those 2 changes are just “nerfs”, again move some value to tool belt and turret activation skills.

Edit: Will the changes be separated for each mode and what about Supply Crate?

Josh Davis.6015:

Considering most minions/summoned pets are already susceptible to the aforementioned changes we feel that this is a fair way to bring turrets more inline with the rest of the game.

Most minions and pets can also deal critical hits and receive boons. Adding those abilities to turrets would make them too powerful, but it’s something to keep in mind if you’re trying to “bring turrets more inline with the rest of the game.”

Now how about making Warrior banners destructible, too? I’d love to burn a banner with fire.

turrets need a longer cooldown time after they’re killed
to compensate, you can reduce the cool down for when they are picked up

so engis have to save the turrets when it’s low

also, give a little bit of cast time so they can be interrupted when picking it up

add’s a little more skill to it
yeah?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I don’t, and haven’t ever played as a turret engi, but both of these changes together seems a bit much.

If its one or the other, I think I’d rather the crit. conditions like bleed on a turret make about as much sense as blinding a Dredge.

What about bleeding on a phantasm, Chaos?

And you call yourself a Mesmer.

So, since engineers utilities have to be “inline with the rest of the game”, when shall engineers get their second main weapon? You know, to be “inline with the rest of the game”.

A Poem to sum it up:

I came upon a point, my trusty staff and I
It was upon this point I learned that turrets can fly!

I had dropped my wells upon the ground
But still the thumper turret did pound

Then a net was flying by it hit again and held me still
As fire blasted without much skill..

So up these nasty turrets flew above the ground
Yet no Engineer, their owner, could be found…

Yep my poem sucks but lol its HOW I FEEL.

the suggested changes are fine and can be worked around but lets look at other “minions”.

Necro minions are broken and not responsive half the time are these “working as intended” because your using them as a example and they are currently only partially useful. So treating turrets like Necro minions will break them again like they were for a good year or two.

As for the metaheads learn to be flexible we all don’t subscribe to your mediocrity. So keep it to yourself please. Just because a build isn’t easily countered by your inner circle of builds doesn’t mean its wrong or OP.

I do like the suggestion of making the turrets damage/ tankiness partially based on their engineers stats and having vunlerability to some condis like bleeding(oil leak), fire (they blow up after so long)…. Also they are metal and possibly vulnerable to hammers and maces and possibly projectiles such as bullets.

Whatever you do just dont overdo it like with the ranger longbow, Turrets work lets keep them working please.

I play mesmer so I realize that Anet’s idea of balance is to “nerf powerful things until they’re practically useless” but I really hoped something was learned in the years the game’s been out. I guess not though.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hi all,

As a follow-up to my post from last Friday, I wanted to give you a run-down of the changes we’re looking to make to the engineer’s turrets:

• Engineer turrets will be able to be critically hit. (Edit for clarity: this change means the turrets can take critical hits against them, but they still cannot deal critical hits themselves.)
• Engineer turrets will be able to be affected by conditions.

We’d love to hear your feedback on these changes. Feel free to respond below with your comments.

-Grouch

As a turret engi player I’m disappointed in this change. Here I was expecting some redesign on turrets to make them more active, but nope. Straight up Nerf. This is a lazy way of game balancing.

Why not recreate how turrets work? Make them more active in play style rather than just a straight up nerf? For Example, remove the autoattack option on rocket turret, reduce the cooldown of the active and then allow the active to deal more damage? This rewards players for using the active effectively and creates less dependency on AI.

Are conditions removable?
What happens if a Necro condibombs a turret and then uses epidemic?
Have you accounted for AOE condi’s such as engi grenades so that they target player over turrets first if in a team fight?

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I don’t, and haven’t ever played as a turret engi, but both of these changes together seems a bit much.

If its one or the other, I think I’d rather the crit. conditions like bleed on a turret make about as much sense as blinding a Dredge.

What about bleeding on a phantasm, Chaos?

And you call yourself a Mesmer.

Pfffff…kitten ! Thats how much you know about mesmers.. clones & phanatsm pop even before you would apply bleed or anything.. LOL DOUBLEDERP!

Where are the hobo sack changes?

Manuhell.2759:

So, since engineers utilities have to be “inline with the rest of the game”, when shall engineers get their second main weapon? You know, to be “inline with the rest of the game”.

Yeah just like how an elimentalist can swap between weapons. and before you say attunement change dont forget kits

Please also take a look at the ability to place turrets in the air where a lot of attacks cannot reach them.

insanemaniac.2456:

ok sure, but can you take a look at turret engi’s protection uptime and consider that as well or instead? between thumper and protection injection and 30% boon duration from alchemy, engi easily has potentially 130% protection uptime. no other class comes close, and when they do, like d/d ele did, you nerf it.

this

TheGrimm.5624:

As an Engi, I am good with seeing how this plays out. Makes sense. That said, any fixes to turrets not being affected by gravity and can be placed in air?

and this

For those of you complaining about how much sense it makes for a turret to be affected by bleeds, poison, blind, etc. Ask yourself the same for mesmer clones which arent real flesh and bone and are mere figments of the imagination and have always been affected by conditions and crit damage.

So all I have to say to people who are against these changes is boohoo.

Those are good changes if they go through.

This makes a 1v1 against them much easier as a Warrior, dropping Combustive Shot on them will be more meaningful with the burn ticks, and for Arcing Arrow to potentially crit.

Turret Engineers will still be useful in teamfights to a degree, and multiple Turret Engis will still be annoying, but at least the turrets can die faster.

Any word on the floating turret bug?

I am sure they will work on the floating turret bug. Its not that hard to change especially if they read my post earlier

good changes for the most part, but realistically, how exactly does one poison, bleed, and torment a mechanical object?

had I known you could poison mechanical objects, I would have done so to my enemies cars irl by now =D

Mustafa.7684:

Yeah just like how an elimentalist can swap between weapons. and before you say attunement change dont forget kits

Except that attunements are given by default. Kits aren’t. Engineers have to spend utilities for them. And a turret build won’t necessarily have them…but they will still have a single weapon.

Unless you’re saying that engineers should get multiple kits for free. I may even agree with that.

TL;DR: your comparison is moot; engineers don’t get additional weapon sets by default; elementalists do.

fluxit.8247:

For those of you complaining about how much sense it makes for a turret to be affected by bleeds, poison, blind, etc. Ask yourself the same for mesmer clones which arent real flesh and bone and are mere figments of the imagination and have always been affected by conditions and crit damage.

So all I have to say to people who are against these changes is boohoo.

As a fellow Mesmer, I concur.

With the speculated mobile turrets shown in the expansion trailer, Torment and cripple would work then.

Josh Davis.6015:

Siva Mira.3546:

Will Turret run in fear when I fear them?

Nope. While they’ll definitely receive the fear condition, they’ll stand their ground.

wait! when did turrents become gaurdians?! you say you are nerfing turrets, BUT THEN BUFF THEM!!!!?!?!?!?

Josh Davis.6015:

These changes should only slightly affect the viability of turrets in PvE/WvW (low creature crit chance/condition application),

Off-topic but can this change? Condition control is part of professions especially necro, mallyx legend was proven to be dispensable as well. I can understand the crit part but crit are an extension of power, condition don’t have that. Could it be low condition duration but active condition damage, if the class point didn’t do much players find PvE lacking in diversity, if you are against increase of difficulty or instanced content at least make conditions mobs/bosses a thing. If that’s not enough to convince you it was mentioned that stack is being tested but it doesn’t make conditions wanted it just makes them viable, condition mobs allowing for transfer will back up that step, you help everyone. Sry for being off-topic but your approval of this method shocked me.

I have played Necromancer exclusively since New Year’s 2015 and depending on which kind of Engineer I run into I lose the majority of the time.

That said, this morning I decided to switch to a Condition based Necromancer build with Perplexity Runes before I even read this announcement about the turrets. I am very excited to see how this Necro Condi hurts Engineers because I honestly do not enjoy fighting against them in both sPvP and WvWvW. If I can fit Necromancer’s Epidemic into my build, I will.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hi all,

As a follow-up to my post from last Friday, I wanted to give you a run-down of the changes we’re looking to make to the engineer’s turrets:

• Engineer turrets will be able to be critically hit. (Edit for clarity: this change means the turrets can take critical hits against them, but they still cannot deal critical hits themselves.)
• Engineer turrets will be able to be affected by conditions.

Considering most minions/summoned pets are already susceptible to the aforementioned changes we feel that this is a fair way to bring turrets more inline with the rest of the game. These changes should only slightly affect the viability of turrets in PvE/WvW (low creature crit chance/condition application), while providing for more counterplay against turrets.

We’d love to hear your feedback on these changes. Feel free to respond below with your comments.

-Grouch

Could we then get the ability for our turrets to follow us like minions/pet do so turrets can be more inline with the rest of the game? I feel like the stationary life of a turret can explain it being slightly more powerful in the way of not taking condi damage/crit damage. And if we can get the ability of them being mobile then, I can see the nerfs making sense.

Jasher.6580:

Turk.5460:

met.9653:

Turret that can bleed and be affected by poison? #gw2kittenLogic

Not the fact that bows have unlimited ammunition with no quiver, or that these flintlock style pistols and rifles are semi-automatic, or that attacking the left pinky toe of a 80 foot dragon will kill it, or that leaping through smoke and covering myself in ashes will somehow turn me invisible or….trails off

Exactly… these people who keep crying about broken “immersion” and is willing to sacrifice gameplay irritates me so much.

Conditions damage specs need some love. “A gate can’t bleed, you aren’t allowed to do any damage to it.”

smh

Also somehow a blunderbuss nailed to a wooden tripod has a heat-seeking sensor somewhere, using its hidden sophisticated supercomputer to maintain me as a target, making sure to turn no-clip mode on so my swords just pass right through its wooden base! WHY DO THE TURRETS HAVE ACCESS TO THE COMMAND CONSOLE #IMPULSE101 #IDDQD

Zatoichi.1049:

good changes for the most part, but realistically, how exactly does one poison, bleed, and torment a mechanical object?

had I known you could poison mechanical objects, I would have done so to my enemies cars irl by now =D

Burn = thermite
Poison = extremely PH rich base or acid
Bleed = cause hydraulic fluid / oil leak
Confusion = user interface hack
Torment = magically induced hypercreation of rust

#RP, #ForScience, #RIPTurrets

Them being able to be critically hit is a good change. It will also inspire more people to run zerker builds hopefully. You should do this.

If you want them to be vulnerable to conditions to bring them inline with other summons as you said then you should make it so the boons can be applied to them as well, don’t you think? Else it will be too big of a nerf (for supply crate too).

Well since a lot of people are complaining about the legitimacy of conditions on turrets. Think of it this way:

Doesn’t make sense: – Makes Sense

Bleeding – Lost of Fluids (Just like real life mechanical fluids, if there isnt enough then it wont work. Ie. Car motor oil)

Confusion – Gear jamming (The internal gears are jammed and damaged the device. ie. plane landing gear gets jammed)

Fear – device not working as intended (A malfunction that causes the device not operate correctly. Ie. A calculator not working as intended during you final school exam… everything is depending on this exam.. if you fail you loose your dream job!!!)

Poison – Rust (Rust cause the device to sometimes become inoperable. Ie. Rusty Saw, knive, car)

If people use their imagination they can see how conditions can effect turrets…. also guys its a game.

Patchi.9061:

on another note, Nerfing turrets will greatly nerf Supply crate…I don’t believe an elite which is on a 180 second cool-down would be that good if the main source of supply crate (burn and immob) will be cleared out in matter of seconds… Perhaps buff the supply crate as the turrets are equipped with the reflect bubble to ensure that the turrets stay alive longer than 5 seconds? (or else you are killing all of Engineer’s elites as mortar and Elixir X tornado are completley useless.. )

^this is a really good point. It would be terrible if Supply Crate kept the same cool down but was way less effective. It needs to be less effective than it is now, but I do think it needs consideration so that it isn’t useless. I would think a shorter recharge would be a good idea.

I posted on this thread many times lol but when will those changes take place or at least a time period? The team seems to be CIA private leaving threads uninformed for a good amount of time, this thread already started.

Alexander.9810:

Zatoichi.1049:

good changes for the most part, but realistically, how exactly does one poison, bleed, and torment a mechanical object?

had I known you could poison mechanical objects, I would have done so to my enemies cars irl by now =D

Burn = thermite
Poison = extremely PH rich base or acid
Bleed = cause hydraulic fluid / oil leak
Confusion = user interface hack
Torment = magically induced hypercreation of rust

#RP, #ForScience, #RIPTurrets

darn you beat me to it!

I want to also add: turret is not the main problem, the trait is. Why do you think no matter ow many “nerf” thief stealth get, it is still problematic?
Hint: it is their traits

Look at thief traits: do you see where the problems are?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_traits

Trickery- so many increase of stealings, Acrobatics- so many gains, Shadow Arts- so many stealths.

Why so many for 1 profession? Why is so many not the main problem? Why not fix source of problem first? Why not start fix in main problem first?

Same goes for all problematic professions: why after all “nerfs” they are still problematic? Again, the answer is in their traits, not their weapons, not their builds, not their skill.

Engnineer is 1 of the problematic professions: so why not nerf their traits? why not redesign their traits?

Here is Engineer traits: see if this nerf will change anything? Of course not!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_engineer_traits

I already see 3 category traits that are responsible for them being problematic: can you see them?

Hint: it is not Tools

Any chance that even if other changes are to turrets these propositions can be applied to all Objects in the game? Be it Teq, trendils in dungeons such as CoE, and the like?

I hate turret engi as much as anyone but I think this maybe a bit over the top. All you need is to make Rocket and maybe riffle turret take crit and condi damage not all of them.

WE all have turret syndrome & are fed up with em…. So no it’s not over the top. Engies deserve whats coming for all the trolling, laughing & humiliation we received from does players.

IT’S Turrets Rekking TimE!

I’m so happy I could almost cry. I’ve gotten so sick of all the turret engis that I actually don’t want to queue any more unless I’ve got my full team on.

These look like good changes. I wonder what the implications for Supply Crate will be though, given that celestial rifle engis don’t trait for turrets so their turrets from SP are quite weak anyway.

Anyway, it’s good they are nerfing this, but they should also really remove the celestial amulet.

Royal.2693:

Anyway, it’s good they are nerfing this, but they should also really remove the celestial amulet.

Someone sees the real problem here.

+1

Josh Davis.6015:

Hi all,

As a follow-up to my post from last Friday, I wanted to give you a run-down of the changes we’re looking to make to the engineer’s turrets:

• Engineer turrets will be able to be critically hit. (Edit for clarity: this change means the turrets can take critical hits against them, but they still cannot deal critical hits themselves.)
• Engineer turrets will be able to be affected by conditions.

Considering most minions/summoned pets are already susceptible to the aforementioned changes we feel that this is a fair way to bring turrets more inline with the rest of the game. These changes should only slightly affect the viability of turrets in PvE/WvW (low creature crit chance/condition application), while providing for more counterplay against turrets.

We’d love to hear your feedback on these changes. Feel free to respond below with your comments.

-Grouch

Affected by condi, I can live with that. But to be critically hit is the same as deleting turrets.

Turrets have low hp. Their immunity to crit damage is what helps them stay alive.

So let turrets be affected by condi only as a shave. Instead of deleting them outright. Power and condi builds will be able to kill turrets either way.

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

William C.6195:

These look like good changes. I wonder what the implications for Supply Crate will be though, given that celestial rifle engis don’t trait for turrets so their turrets from SP are quite weak anyway.

Good? This change does nothing to address the passive playstyle.
It just makes turrets really glassy, along with the disadvantages they already had.
They’re catering to the whiners and nothing else. And all those whiners want is for turrets to be nerfed to oblivion. They don’t care about a whole category of utilities being made unusable.

Obviously, Supply Crate will suffer the implications. Do you think someone even cares?
Let’s be frank, if someone cared about fixing turrets, we wouldn’t be talking about nerfs or “bringing them inline” (that, on a class that isn’t inline with the others to begin with, sounds like a lazy excuse). We would be talking about a redesign, either of the overcharges or of the whole turrets.

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

You’re right, fixing a long-time problem shouldn’t be hailed as a victory. Think of it more as “Game Polish”

Very yes. To both.

YuiRS.8129:

Very yes. To both.

Very yes to very both.

Turk.5460:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

You’re right, fixing a long-time problem shouldn’t be hailed as a victory. Think of it more as “Game Polish”

Except it’s not. It ruined them, and everyone knows that. And we’ve all been frustrated with turrets, it’s fine to be happy that they will be much less of an issue now, but they did no design justice here. Turrets will not be in a “good place” from this, nor does it fix the ease of playing and design for 0 mobility, it simply took one of the few non-kit builds an engineer had and trashed it. It’s not a polish anything. If anything, they’re making more useless trash in their game that has no use across all 3 game types. This isn’t something to honor.

It’s an easy bandaid fix.

Can we please make this a PvP change only? I actually run turrets in WvW – the reflect shield is incredibly dangerous when used properly. They already tend to get blown up pretty fast in big fights – putting them down now is just a waste.

I’m not a huge fan of this change in general, but I’ll see how it plays out. An engineer without turrets is near useless/defenseless and with already poor mobility, this could very well be an end to the build altogether in terms of any sort of usefulness.