Guild Wars 2

I feel the comparison to necro minions is pretty much a bad idea.

While they are both AI they have very distinct and different gameplay patterns meaning they should be fought and countered differently.

Turrets are static world placements, where as necro minions are anchored to the center of the caster.

To me this means that the ideal way to allow for counterplay of turrets would be to give them an activation/deactivation radius. This allows them to still be zone control bullies, but not mobile point defense.

This is where i feel the first place to start is, followed by allowing critical hits. Condi’s however is really taking the comparison too far as the turret spec was already susceptible to heavy condition pressure classes.

TL;DR – Half the solution is okay, the other half is pandering to more viable “condition” builds using equality as a means when the two items in question never will be equal.

Proposing turret activation/deactivation radius and timer instead.

Turk.5460:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

You’re right, fixing a long-time problem shouldn’t be hailed as a victory. Think of it more as “Game Polish”

Everyone on the forum could “solo” turret engies and only the most horrible uncoordinated pugs lost to turret engies ever, right?

I mean every single post about turret engies was people flexing their ekitten talking about how only noobs lost to them, right?

I think a spec that kills build diversity on the level that cele has in conquest should be addressed before “fixing” turret engies (which EVERYONE can kill VERY easily and NO good teams EVER lose to them) by just completely nerfing them with HUGE nerfs.

I’m perfectly fine seeing turrets nerfed but the funny thing is that you have to say this was a hotjoin nerf (which it wasn’t), or that good players felt the build was over-powering.

It gets even funnier that turret engies became strong because they countered the bruiser cele meta 1v1.

Lo and behold the one thing that counters a cele class gets nerfed. This is a big buff towards the cele players—you know, the ones who claimed to NEVER lose to turrets because, you know, it’s not cool to admit you lost a 1v1 to a build you consider braindead.

Like I said, sure, nerf turrets out of play-ability in the competitive scene but if you do it, then make cele unplayable competitively as well, please. Without turrets and without cele a LOT more builds will be viable again.

ronpierce.2760:

Turk.5460:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

You’re right, fixing a long-time problem shouldn’t be hailed as a victory. Think of it more as “Game Polish”

Except it’s not. It ruined them, and everyone knows that. And we’ve all been frustrated with turrets, it’s fine to be happy that they will be much less of an issue now, but they did no design justice here. Turrets will not be in a “good place” from this, nor does it fix the ease of playing and design for 0 mobility, it simply took one of the few non-kit builds an engineer had and trashed it. It’s not a polish anything. If anything, they’re making more useless trash in their game that has no use across all 3 game types. This isn’t something to honor.

It’s an easy bandaid fix.

Oh! I wasn’t aware that this has already been implemented already! Good thing you experienced the change and extensively tested the impact it had already.

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

+1 After careful and proper thoughts I realize they do that for mostly everything and also sometimes they revert it but somewhere no one wants to go and don’t make it attractive and they call it genius and innovative, I predict a trait that prevents crit/condi on turrets above a threshold at some point maybe and maybe not. I should stop posting on this thread too much negativity can come from it, I’ll let the casual whiners have it.

Turk.5460:

ronpierce.2760:

Turk.5460:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

You’re right, fixing a long-time problem shouldn’t be hailed as a victory. Think of it more as “Game Polish”

Except it’s not. It ruined them, and everyone knows that. And we’ve all been frustrated with turrets, it’s fine to be happy that they will be much less of an issue now, but they did no design justice here. Turrets will not be in a “good place” from this, nor does it fix the ease of playing and design for 0 mobility, it simply took one of the few non-kit builds an engineer had and trashed it. It’s not a polish anything. If anything, they’re making more useless trash in their game that has no use across all 3 game types. This isn’t something to honor.

It’s an easy bandaid fix.

Oh! I wasn’t aware that this has already been implemented already! Good thing you experienced the change and extensively tested the impact it had already.

How effective is player feeback…?

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

+1 After careful and proper thoughts I realize they do that for mostly everything and also sometimes they revert it but somewhere no one wants to go and don’t make it attractive and they call it genius and innovative, I predict a trait that prevents crit/condi on turrets above a threshold at some point maybe and maybe not. I should stop posting on this thread too much negativity can come from it, I’ll let the casual whiners have it.

And the turret defending whiners are retreating!

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

You appear to be the “AI guy.”

Even in games like Dota 2, AI is somewhat of an advantage but is usually killed really fast. Warlock Ulti, for example, is like Supply Crate – the AoE stun is where the value is, not really the AI or 2 AI you get. Sets up teamfights really well for teammates.

AI could be a low cooldown annoyance that can complement you for a time, but should always be pretty easy to kill, just like how Mesmer clones and phantasms are.

Josh Davis.6015:

Considering most minions/summoned pets are already susceptible to the aforementioned changes we feel that this is a fair way to bring turrets more inline with the rest of the game. These changes should only slightly affect the viability of turrets in PvE/WvW (low creature crit chance/condition application), while providing for more counterplay against turrets.

-Grouch

So if they’re being brought in line with other summoned npcs, should not turrets be able to accept boons as well as critically hit enemies just like minions, ranger pets, clones/phantasms?
Main thing coming to mind is the new boon that stops condition damage from ticking as well as a turret shooting you in the eye vs. the foot in the same way you can say critically hitting with a sword is chopping off the head vs. a hand.

You could scale it off the engineers stats partially so that turrets are stronger based on the summoners toughness, or deal more damage based off power/prec/fero. In the same way net and flame turrets scale off the summoner’s might and condi duration.

Will we be able to cleanse turrets? Will traits like elementalists cleansing on regen application (Cleansing Water) therefore be cleansing less than their potential? Will “Save Yourselves” draw conditions off of turrets? If so, what about skills, traits, runes that convert conditions to boons? Will these fail to cleanse?

Turk.5460:

ronpierce.2760:

Turk.5460:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

You’re right, fixing a long-time problem shouldn’t be hailed as a victory. Think of it more as “Game Polish”

Except it’s not. It ruined them, and everyone knows that. And we’ve all been frustrated with turrets, it’s fine to be happy that they will be much less of an issue now, but they did no design justice here. Turrets will not be in a “good place” from this, nor does it fix the ease of playing and design for 0 mobility, it simply took one of the few non-kit builds an engineer had and trashed it. It’s not a polish anything. If anything, they’re making more useless trash in their game that has no use across all 3 game types. This isn’t something to honor.

It’s an easy bandaid fix.

Oh! I wasn’t aware that this has already been implemented already! Good thing you experienced the change and extensively tested the impact it had already.

I’ve played MM for about two years. I have enough information to make an educated intuitive call. They were already in a lingering “meh” spot, just poorly designed. Now they’re poorly designed AND easier to kill. Make your own hypothesis. They are going to be just like MM. A noob killer and terrible in team fights with loads of aoe and cleave and useless against people with half a brain and still too easy to play. They did absolutely nothing here that was a smart “design” fix. They further ruined their own game so a few pvpers would be happier and it required very little thought.

Turk.5460:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

+1 After careful and proper thoughts I realize they do that for mostly everything and also sometimes they revert it but somewhere no one wants to go and don’t make it attractive and they call it genius and innovative, I predict a trait that prevents crit/condi on turrets above a threshold at some point maybe and maybe not. I should stop posting on this thread too much negativity can come from it, I’ll let the casual whiners have it.

And the turret defending whiners are retreating!

Defending turrets?? I proposed changes to make them more active in addition to the 2 certain ones all you want is nerf with your lack of decent creativity. I’m referring to class balance a specific one that they ignored forever but that’s off-topic. It seems it’s not that hard to identify a casual whiner.

As much as I dislike turret engineers I have to say that the condition damage might be too much. The engineer is already vulnerable to conditions which means a good condition build is already at an advantage. Additionally turrets can’t be cleansed of conditions, which means dropping a condi bomb would be a guaranteed wipe of all turrets on the field.

I do like them being able to be critically hit though, as it means we can focus on specific turrets to destroy them and remove the engineer’s toys systematically. First rocket turret, then thumper, then healing. Suddenly the engineer is very vulnerable and can be beaten, but only if the engineer fails to ACTIVELY defend his turrets from the enemy burst.

Basically condition builds should be able to melt the engineer without touching the turrets while power builds need to destroy the turrets before engaging the engineer. It’d make a nice balance in how you approach the fight without making condition builds the ultimate hard counter to turret engineers.

Alexander.9810:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

You appear to be the “AI guy.”

Even in games like Dota 2, AI is somewhat of an advantage but is usually killed really fast. Warlock Ulti, for example, is like Supply Crate – the AoE stun is where the value is, not really the AI or 2 AI you get. Sets up teamfights really well for teammates.

AI could be a low cooldown annoyance that can complement you for a time, but should always be pretty easy to kill, just like how Mesmer clones and phantasms are.

Believe me, I’ve offered ways to make them more of offensive utilities and less of passive damage drones. The problem is, the game lacks the resources it seems to make any good design changes, instead, everything gets a terrible bandaid fix… I’ve even tried offering some more “lazy route” changes to meet around the same goal, still to no avail. AI has had basically nothing but numerical tweaks in… Forever… A part of me honestly wonders why they even tried to put them in their game if they have no intentions of making them work properly.

Not only that, but it makes me very curious on their intentions of these supposed flying drones engineer get in HOT. Surely they wouldn’t try to add more if they can’t handle the 4-5 pet builds in the game already.

The big difference is the time for implementation. A proper revamp of turrets to really make them entertaining, require a level of skill that is satisfying for all parties involved, and completely fair and interactive would take far more development time than what ANet is clearly willing to put into it right now. For that reason, they want to make a change that hits Turrets hard in PvP, not very hard in PvE, and solves the issue. It’s better to nerf it out of the meta and save the PvP experience of a ton of players than to put it off any longer than they already have and wait for a better solution.

While I would like spirit weapons, minions, turrets, ranger spirits, and all of our other AI-based friends to require skillful play and be fair, balanced, and effective builds within the meta, I’d rather they at least make the ranked meta tolerable first.

I think both of the two changes you listed are reasonable changes, having these changes in force will not affect other non-turret Engineer builds that much or at all, so there’s really no objection coming from me.

I personally don’t love or hate turret engi, because it’s still part of the profession I love so much (been playing Engineer as my main since beta weekend, way before people consider Engineer a strong class was even a thing), so sometimes I would still play it, which were enough for me to understand others’ frustration when going up against turret engi.

Still, kind of off-topic here, I really wonder why turret engi did not get despised until around the time they introduced new traits for them. I remember in the early days everyone all said turret build sucks (which is true), but their ability, HP pool, and being unable to be critically hit + affected by conditions were all there since the very start, I am really baffled by this shift of impression.

Sagat.3285:

Turk.5460:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

+1 After careful and proper thoughts I realize they do that for mostly everything and also sometimes they revert it but somewhere no one wants to go and don’t make it attractive and they call it genius and innovative, I predict a trait that prevents crit/condi on turrets above a threshold at some point maybe and maybe not. I should stop posting on this thread too much negativity can come from it, I’ll let the casual whiners have it.

And the turret defending whiners are retreating!

Defending turrets?? I proposed changes to make them more active in addition to the 2 certain ones all you want is nerf with your lack of decent creativity. I’m referring to class balance a specific one that they ignored forever but that’s off-topic. It seems it’s not that hard to identify a casual whiner.

They are! And the zealous defenders are even easier to spot, however, considering how much higher up on their pedestal they are.

@ ronpierce

I think that’s motivated by the player culture more than design competence. Anet looks like they are very much driven by opportunity cost discussions regarding changes. Talk, talk, talk some more, talk even more, then go with a plan that covers all bases.

Player culture appears to be very heavily against AI builds. I see people complaining about spirit rangers from apparently a very long time ago, so it seems to be a deep source of bitterness toward those types of builds. I doubt that is going to change, so they have probably written them off and may continue to moving forward.

As far as building a character for ALL AI, I don’t think that’s something there should be incentive for. Certain utilites, like Cantrips, Stances, Signets, etc. should, but AI gives up way too much and shouldn’t make the character a one man army as compensation.

It might upset the small group of people who want to be a one man army in PvP, but when there are more than one of those in a game… it’s a huge problem.

Turk.5460:

Sagat.3285:

Turk.5460:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, not that anyone cares, but this is basically along the same lines or handling MM and Guardian Spirits, they took the easy way out and deleted them. Such a shame. At this point turrets may as well be removed from the game, along with any other summon that is essentially useless across the board. Not sure why they ask for “feedback”. I’ve spent hours making several page write ups on how to make certain AI builds acceptable contenders without being overly frustrating to fight OR play, but it seems they always get ignored.

If you want a “Good job, we can pvp again!” You got it, good job. But this isn’t a design victory at all.

+1 After careful and proper thoughts I realize they do that for mostly everything and also sometimes they revert it but somewhere no one wants to go and don’t make it attractive and they call it genius and innovative, I predict a trait that prevents crit/condi on turrets above a threshold at some point maybe and maybe not. I should stop posting on this thread too much negativity can come from it, I’ll let the casual whiners have it.

And the turret defending whiners are retreating!

Defending turrets?? I proposed changes to make them more active in addition to the 2 certain ones all you want is nerf with your lack of decent creativity. I’m referring to class balance a specific one that they ignored forever but that’s off-topic. It seems it’s not that hard to identify a casual whiner.

They are! And the zealous defenders are even easier to spot, however, considering how much higher up on their pedestal they are.

You can stop trying with the b8 m8 it ain’t gr8. Do yourself a favor and don’t turn into a forum warrior.

So from looking back on forum posts I never saw an intelligible discussion on why they are bad for the community in competitive play.

So this sounds like a hot join nerf. Why are the devs wasting time balancing HOTJOIN as opposed to addressing the real problems in competitive PvP? Here’s a couple quotes on point:

Peutrifectus.4830:

There is counter play. You just need to learn it. They have no stability and little condi cleanse. My approach is always to cc them away from the safety of their turrets will pulls and knockbbacks, cripple and imobs them whilst bursting the pants out-of them.

You don’t have to focus the turrets!

It’s a weak build but stupidly easy to pick up

Loboling.5293:

I’m going to continue to beat down turret engies assuming they are really in over abundance again. (I hadn’t seen many this last week)

Balsa.3951:

why i never have any trouble with turrent Engi

Siphaed.9235:

I enjoy going against a turret engineer. My abilities bounce nicely between the engineer and the turret and back again. As an AOE build for either staff or S/D, I’m ripe with possibilities of ways to destroy turret and engineer together.

kodesh.2851:

Learn and adapt. Turret engis have their weaknesses like anything else. If they leave turrets at other points they are gimping themselves quite a bit in whatever pt they are actually fighting at.

choovanski.5462:

buddy it’s easy to counter, ya’ just gotta use that brain.

GhOst.4019:

Turret engis do hardly any damage. Their turrets do all the work (Rocket turret being 75% of all damage from all the turrets and Engi himself combined). Kill it and gg.

Tao.5096:

Thumper turret doesn’t stun.

Yet again, another QQrant which in fact is a L2P issue.

ukuni.8745:

the key to beating a turret engineer is not being as brain dead as the turret engineer and picking your fights, you dont even have to change your build, you just have to realize that sometimes its stupid to run into an enemy you cant beat, instead realize your build uses condis or CC or you dont have the range to take down the turrets and then go do something else.

also supply crate dosent make an engineer a turret engineer.

choovanski.5462:

PS: to all you complaing about how to beat 3 or 4 turret engineers, dudes… you are part of a team you should not be going up against 2 people on a point alone. you have a team of five, so do they. you cannot expect to solo 2 or more people, but guess what you don’t have to- because you have a team.

Narkodx.1472:

There are two reasons why turret engis are still effective and why the players in this game are simply terrible – sorry can’t put this lightly it is the sad truth

1- The inability to adapt – I want to play my build and play it my way I will not change if the enemy team is running something that I am ineffective against I would rather lose and complain on the forums

2- Attempting to fight on-point instead of using LoS – Why can players not understand that this is one of the most powerful strategies against turret engis, the AI is easily outsmarted if you use the terrain to your advantage yet I continuously see people run straight onto the point eating all the turrets damage and getting blown up

I have lost all hope for the average player in this game – simply not good enough to use either tactic – would rather make posts on forums

I can take out a turret engi with a full glass Mesmer/Ranger
Condi Necro/Engi
Most Warrior/Guardian Builds

runeblade.7514:

Medi guardian blows turret up easily. Even if engi spread those turrets, engi die very easily against medi guards.

Many power builds that are good at keeping pressure can kill the engi. Engi has zero blocks or invulnerability. It is simply a dps race between you and the turret.

Fistandanthilus.6824:

There is counter play and easy. Problem is medium/low average skilled players don’t know it or if they know there is always any member of the team who does not know it.

Sagat.3285:

If it gets nerfed it would be for the casuals but that’s their favorite audience anyway that’s why they treat us a ignorant babies.

someone.7485:

Good players do not play turret engi because they have massive flaws. The lack of stun break is a big one. No blocks.The fact they are an engi means they are easily dispatched with conditions. If you can intercept them away from a point, they cannot do much. They have terrible mobility. Turret engi is only good against medium to low level players.

Arantheal.7396:

so you tell me that any half decent player has issues with turret engis?
okay^^

Why not just lower their HP in PvP only and not allow them to be cast in air, or give huge vertical hit box?

People complaining about the usefulness of Turrets in PvE just secretly want them to consider it and then scrap this very justifiable nerf to Turrets for PvP.

Because, be honest. Why would you ever want to use Turrets for PvE? Do you wait the entire cooldown before moving on to the next mob? There are plenty of builds and set-ups for other classes that don’t see use outside of PvP because they simply aren’t viable in PvE, and vice versa. Stop trying to defend a blatantly broken build that requires minimal effort.

If you truly want to use them for PvE, you can, you just have to be smart about using your stuff. You shouldn’t be able to spam it all day every day, ever, anyways.

Every other summoned unit can be affected by crits and conditions, why should the turrets be different? Because Engineers are your main? Because otherwise it’ll be “unfair” for PvP?

For the creatures in PvE or PvP (Game creatures, not player controlled or summoned) that are immune to Crits and Conditions, that’s a mechanic for the fight. Some are annoying and could probably be looked into, but drawing a parallel to them and the turrets is another smokescreen by whining Engineers to avoid this decent balance change to one of the most broken builds ever made in any PvP scene, in any MMO.

There have been tons of other good suggestions in this thread about further -balance- changes to the Turret engineer that should get more focus, once ANet hopefully decides to move beyond this little adjustment and -really- look into the ridiculousness that is Turret Engineers for PvP.

With crits on turrets in place, and the application of conditions possible, adjustments can be made to toughness and health pools of turrets to balance them out if need be. What’s important is that power/crit builds benefit from their investments when deciding to focus said turrets, and condi builds are no longer totally redundant when facing them.

And yes crits on turrets is important due to the fact that condi’s are applied via crits (Mesmer illusions for example).

@ Lux

Nobody has been upset because it’s unbeatable except some of the more ignorant players. They’re upset because it is obnoxious to fight against, promotes laziness, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

Alexander.9810:

@ Lux

Nobody has been upset because it’s unbeatable except some of the more ignorant players. They’re upset because it is obnoxious to fight against, promotes laziness, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

That’s arbitrary though.

And actually I don’t mind fighting it at all, I actually enjoy fighting it a lot more than d/d ele or cele engie because those fights are boring. There, you’ve been proved wrong since you said no one wants to deal with it anymore. More evidence is the quoted players who, at the time they posted it, did not seem to have any qualms about fighting turret engies.

So based on your logic, if most people detest the cele meta they should just nerf it to the extent that turret engies were nerfed? Great, let’s get rolling with that. That will have a meaningful impact on COMPETITIVE play and would not just be a hot join nerf.

Why should devs waste the few precious updates and balances we get on nerfing things for HOTJOIN when they could make meaningful balance changes for PvP.

Clearly anyone who wasn’t horrible just steam-rolled turret engies, so that’s not the issue. Teams apparently just obliterated them so that’s not the issue. Thus, the issue must be that new players were being discouraged by them in hot joins… Sucks for them, but how about fixing competitive PvP instead?

The idea was sound: “Turrets are too good for what they’re supposed to do, so let’s balance.” I’ve always considered turrets obnoxious, but never OP. From the beginning, they’ve been good at mauling less-experienced players but do very little against a person or team who know what he, she or they are doing. Turrets have long needed a polish, both to decrease their braindead playstyle and to increase their viability in competitive play. This change, however, is failing in that regard.

This is neither a polish nor a victory. The whiners whined and they got a super nerf, which is exactly what they wanted. This doesn’t correctly “balance” the overpowered turret builds; this simply takes a somewhat viable build and smashes it into the ground. Furthermore, the core issues that made turrets a problem to begin with remain unchanged.

This is a nerf solely for the sake of a nerf, with no thought or regard to “balance.”

Turret builds were overpowered for the following reasons:

1. Despite gearing and traiting entirely for a defensive role, the turrets possessed significant damage and that, combined with CC, allowed a turret engi to win fights fairly easily. Perfect example of “low risk, high reward” gameplay.
2. Turret overcharges are quite strong, with fairly low cooldowns, and these greatly contributed to both the engi’s damage and available CC.
3. The Experimental Turrets trait, if not OP even in concept, simply gave boons either at too frequent intervals or for too long.
4. Floating turrets. This is clearly a bug and abuse of it should be considered nothing short of exploiting and cheating.

Another problem is the Toolkit’s Gear Shield, which needs either a longer cooldown or a shorter duration.

Allowing turrets to be crit and to suffer from conditions fixes none of these problems. It simply allows any braindead player, regardless of build, to run in and button mash and all the turrets will die.

If a pure condi build ever had problems against turret engi, then they were playing wrong. A turret engi has at max three single-condition cleanses: Healing Turret overcharge, Transmute, and (if you take it) Sigil of Purity. Since two are passive, the only condi cleanse that can be activated at will is the Healing Turret’s cleanse, which of course requires the engi to use his heal skill. Any class that can put multiple conditions on a target in quick succession (which is everyone, with bleeds and poison from sigils) has no problem conditioning an engi to death. Plus an engi will rarely if ever be able to cure immobilized on his own; rather, he needs to wait it out.

The typical strategy for condi builds (especially ranged condi builds, which have an absolute advantage) is to focus the engi only. The strategy for power builds is the exact opposite: ignore the engi and destroy the turrets.

The changes allow any build now to destroy turrets quickly and easily. Aside from removing the need for strategy and planning and switching playstyle to BUTTON MASH ALL THE THINGS, this effectively removes turret usefulness for engi.

There is no longer any point in running turret engi, plain and simple. Experimental Turrets isn’t worth it if the turrets are just going to die. Rifle and rocket were already fragile enough to drop with a single burst, so now they’ll die faster. The one tough turret, the Thumper, now can be bled and poisoned to death (lol), which more or less ruins the point of a meatshield turret.

Adding in vulnerability to crits on top of that is just proof that Anet has no desire to “balance” the class and instead wants to take the easy way out by nerfing the build as much as possible. Critting inanimate objects… Can we crit Teq now, please?

Also, why make them susceptible to conditions but immune to boons? No logic here.

Basically, here’s what happened: Anet ruined the incentive to play turret engi (now nukable via conditions) without fixing what people hate about them (their damage). This means that noob players who try to beat down the engi and ignore the turrets will still get smashed and die, while experienced players will simply wipe the floor with turret engi even easier than before. All this does is solidify turret engi as both a “noob crusher” build and a “why would anybody even attempt to run this competitively” build. So, it will still rule hotjoin and will see even less use in Unranked and Ranked. Furthermore, any new player that says, “Hey, this looks like a fun build!” and gets decent at stomping noobs will have an even greater shock when coming to Unranked or Ranked and subsequently getting facerolled.

Turrets in PvE have been traditionally near useless; the only time they ever saw play (aside from the infrequent roleplayer) was when the engi had some issues against condi-heavy AI and decided to use turrets as a sort of shield. Naturally, this sole use is gone.

Turrets aren’t really an issue in WvW, since no roaming build would use them over other utilities and as defensive objects they’re mediocre at best against zergs. Basically, the changes don’t matter here because no one was really using turrets in WvW anyway.

Turret engi is now the new minion mancer and spirit guardian. Except the turrets can’t receive boons and don’t follow the engi around like an obnoxious and dutiful AI cloud.

Here’s some ideas for what Anet could’ve and should’ve done to “balance” turrets:

• Reduce turret damage, both base and from overcharging.
• Increase cooldown on all overcharge skills.
• Either reduce boon duration or activation frequency for Experimental Turrets.
• Increase Healing Turret cooldown.
• Floating turrets. For realz, doh.
• Increase cooldown or decrease block duration for Gear Shield.

Because having mediocre AI that exist consistently is both fairer and less obnoxious than glass cannon AI that absolutely melts noobs and implodes against anyone with a base knowledge of how PvP works.

Plus, give it a day. I’ll give it two or three tops. People will be back to complain that, “I don’t do condi so turrets still OP” and, “Damage still too high” and, “Perma protection wtf.” Again, these changes simply impose a nerf while ignoring the real issues that have persisted with turrets for a long time.

Contrary to what they’ve said in the past, and what decent players have asked for, Anet did not “balance” turrets to improve fairness while keeping the build viable. They’ve instead gone the way of the past and nerfed it to the ground. So much for increasing the number and variety of builds even remotely useful for competitive play.

#Esports

Mmm… turret engi tears…

Lux.7169:

Alexander.9810:

@ Lux

Nobody has been upset because it’s unbeatable except some of the more ignorant players. They’re upset because it is obnoxious to fight against, promotes laziness, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

That’s arbitrary though.

And actually I don’t mind fighting it at all, I actually enjoy fighting it a lot more than d/d ele or cele engie because those fights are boring. There, you’ve been proved wrong since you said no one wants to deal with it anymore. More evidence is the quoted players who, at the time they posted it, did not seem to have any qualms about fighting turret engies.

So based on your logic, if most people detest the cele meta they should just nerf it to the extent that turret engies were nerfed? Great, let’s get rolling with that. That will have a meaningful impact on COMPETITIVE play and would not just be a hot join nerf.

Why should devs waste the few precious updates and balances we get on nerfing things for HOTJOIN when they could make meaningful balance changes for PvP.

Clearly anyone who wasn’t horrible just steam-rolled turret engies, so that’s not the issue. Teams apparently just obliterated them so that’s not the issue. Thus, the issue must be that new players were being discouraged by them in hot joins… Sucks for them, but how about fixing competitive PvP instead?

Okay I’m getting really fed up with your argument of this is a hot join only nerf. There are full premades running through ranked with nothing but turrets. And for the most part they do extremely well. And if we want to go a step above that lets look at actual “tournament” play. Your team Hero Battle Tactics made it pretty well in the WTS qualifiers and almost swept the losers bracket. Then look at the last ESL monthly a team with two turret Engi’s made an absolute mockery of APeX Prime in the first match and the only reason APeX won the second match is because the tesm had no answer for a 5 person lord push.

Stop saying this will only nerf hot join. The epitome of bias has just reared its ugly head in you.

All I hear is, “wahh I want the game to play itself for me!”

jportell.2197:

Lux.7169:

Alexander.9810:

@ Lux

Nobody has been upset because it’s unbeatable except some of the more ignorant players. They’re upset because it is obnoxious to fight against, promotes laziness, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

That’s arbitrary though.

And actually I don’t mind fighting it at all, I actually enjoy fighting it a lot more than d/d ele or cele engie because those fights are boring. There, you’ve been proved wrong since you said no one wants to deal with it anymore. More evidence is the quoted players who, at the time they posted it, did not seem to have any qualms about fighting turret engies.

So based on your logic, if most people detest the cele meta they should just nerf it to the extent that turret engies were nerfed? Great, let’s get rolling with that. That will have a meaningful impact on COMPETITIVE play and would not just be a hot join nerf.

Why should devs waste the few precious updates and balances we get on nerfing things for HOTJOIN when they could make meaningful balance changes for PvP.

Clearly anyone who wasn’t horrible just steam-rolled turret engies, so that’s not the issue. Teams apparently just obliterated them so that’s not the issue. Thus, the issue must be that new players were being discouraged by them in hot joins… Sucks for them, but how about fixing competitive PvP instead?

Okay I’m getting really fed up with your argument of this is a hot join only nerf. There are full premades running through ranked with nothing but turrets. And for the most part they do extremely well. And if we want to go a step above that lets look at actual “tournament” play. Your team Hero Battle Tactics made it pretty well in the WTS qualifiers and almost swept the losers bracket. Then look at the last ESL monthly a team with two turret Engi’s made an absolute mockery of APeX Prime in the first match and the only reason APeX won the second match is because the tesm had no answer for a 5 person lord push.

Stop saying this will only nerf hot join. The epitome of bias has just reared its ugly head in you.

I think you misunderstood the facetious aspect to the post.

My point being, if people want to concede that even some of the best teams/players have trouble and lose to turret engineers and that overall the build has superior aspects that, if played well, can still over-power some of the top teams in the game, then great, justify the basis for the nerf with that reasoning and stop pretending like good players don’t have an issue with it.

You recognize that and so it’s not directed at you, but rather to the majority of the player base who flex their ekittens suggesting that only bad players and bad teams lose to competent players running the spec in a coordinate fashion.

As for bias, I honestly don’t care if they nerf it or not. I was winning before I saw the potential in the build and only started running it in comps in ToG—notably after we placed extremely well in ToL1 and ToL2.

I saw that the build was extremely strong and I found a way to make it viable competitively. The fact that they nerf it just means I’ll find some other build to kitten with the meta.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hi all,

As a follow-up to my post from last Friday, I wanted to give you a run-down of the changes we’re looking to make to the engineer’s turrets:

• Engineer turrets will be able to be critically hit. (Edit for clarity: this change means the turrets can take critical hits against them, but they still cannot deal critical hits themselves.)
• Engineer turrets will be able to be affected by conditions.

Considering most minions/summoned pets are already susceptible to the aforementioned changes we feel that this is a fair way to bring turrets more inline with the rest of the game. These changes should only slightly affect the viability of turrets in PvE/WvW (low creature crit chance/condition application), while providing for more counterplay against turrets.

We’d love to hear your feedback on these changes. Feel free to respond below with your comments.

-Grouch

This completely fixes the game.
Now we can all go back to playing the classes we like.
I can go back to playing thief as my main.
Thank you so much.
I know at least 4 real life friends who quit the game because of turret engineers and have expressed interest in playing again after I showed them this post.

It is good that you are doing something about turrets. However, I feel you chose the fast and easy solution. Turrets themselves need a complete overhaul. I hope at some point that turret design is revisited. They are useless anywhere but pvp at the time.

This will likely remove turret engis from pvp, which is what the community wanted and it is good to listen to the community if you want the game to thrive. However, this does not bring turrets inline with the rest of pvp. Turret engis have massive drawbacks, and the main trade off for this was you were a massive nuisance at a single point.

If your not going to rework turrets, I have some suggestions.
I would suggest reducing the cool down on turrets that are picked up before being destroyed. I would suggest leaving the cool down of the healing turret the same as it is. But change the cool down for picking up the other turrets from 25% to 35%. Also, If you do not want floating turrets, make it so they are placed faster. This is the easiest fix.

jportell.2197:

Lux.7169:

Alexander.9810:

@ Lux

Nobody has been upset because it’s unbeatable except some of the more ignorant players. They’re upset because it is obnoxious to fight against, promotes laziness, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

That’s arbitrary though.

And actually I don’t mind fighting it at all, I actually enjoy fighting it a lot more than d/d ele or cele engie because those fights are boring. There, you’ve been proved wrong since you said no one wants to deal with it anymore. More evidence is the quoted players who, at the time they posted it, did not seem to have any qualms about fighting turret engies.

So based on your logic, if most people detest the cele meta they should just nerf it to the extent that turret engies were nerfed? Great, let’s get rolling with that. That will have a meaningful impact on COMPETITIVE play and would not just be a hot join nerf.

Why should devs waste the few precious updates and balances we get on nerfing things for HOTJOIN when they could make meaningful balance changes for PvP.

Clearly anyone who wasn’t horrible just steam-rolled turret engies, so that’s not the issue. Teams apparently just obliterated them so that’s not the issue. Thus, the issue must be that new players were being discouraged by them in hot joins… Sucks for them, but how about fixing competitive PvP instead?

Okay I’m getting really fed up with your argument of this is a hot join only nerf. There are full premades running through ranked with nothing but turrets. And for the most part they do extremely well. And if we want to go a step above that lets look at actual “tournament” play. Your team Hero Battle Tactics made it pretty well in the WTS qualifiers and almost swept the losers bracket. Then look at the last ESL monthly a team with two turret Engi’s made an absolute mockery of APeX Prime in the first match and the only reason APeX won the second match is because the tesm had no answer for a 5 person lord push.

Stop saying this will only nerf hot join. The epitome of bias has just reared its ugly head in you.

About the full premade thing, I had proposed before that no more than 2 of the same class should be allowed in PvP team, I find turrets annoying not OP variables that cause you to lose are unrelated to it, when I bring a premade 2-5 I just gets wins in a row we don’t care if one is here or not if we see 3 of them, that’s Anet fault. If I am solo I’m hoping my MMR doesn’t put me with lower skill players,hoping I don’t fight a premade and other variables unrelated to turrets.

The spec takes advantage of the flawed PvP system and the new comers freely capable of queuing no matter what. About tournaments it’s a spec war if we think both are equally skilled I don’t know the rules since I only watch if a necro is present but a team can speced to counter the ops comp that happened recently vs celes… Tournaments have it easy we queue random but we get the flawed system not them.

I solo mostly on necro lately so yeah that’s my fault liking a necro…I have my own issues.

This change is silly! Unlike other AI builds, turret builds make the user completely worthless! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! So mighty! Plus turret Engineers can’t swap weapons and are absolutely worthless off point! It only makes sense that turrets are beefier and stronger than other forms of AI!

I would’ve thought the obvious change would be to have turrets scale with your stats! An Engineer that values damage while sacrificing defense will in turn provide frail, high-powered turrets and vice versa! That way someone that builds to be a bunker can’t deal much damage and someone that builds to be a damage dealer can’t take many hits! But oh well! That logic is wasted on the cele meta which some classes build to be a bunker AND deal decent damage! #Anet!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Lux.7169:

Alexander.9810:

@ Lux

Nobody has been upset because it’s unbeatable except some of the more ignorant players. They’re upset because it is obnoxious to fight against, promotes laziness, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

That’s arbitrary though.

And actually I don’t mind fighting it at all, I actually enjoy fighting it a lot more than d/d ele or cele engie because those fights are boring. There, you’ve been proved wrong since you said no one wants to deal with it anymore. More evidence is the quoted players who, at the time they posted it, did not seem to have any qualms about fighting turret engies.

So based on your logic, if most people detest the cele meta they should just nerf it to the extent that turret engies were nerfed? Great, let’s get rolling with that. That will have a meaningful impact on COMPETITIVE play and would not just be a hot join nerf.

Why should devs waste the few precious updates and balances we get on nerfing things for HOTJOIN when they could make meaningful balance changes for PvP.

Clearly anyone who wasn’t horrible just steam-rolled turret engies, so that’s not the issue. Teams apparently just obliterated them so that’s not the issue. Thus, the issue must be that new players were being discouraged by them in hot joins… Sucks for them, but how about fixing competitive PvP instead?

Okay, maybe I shouldn’t have said nobody. Maybe I walked into that one. You obviously don’t miss details lol. Yes there are people who find Turret Engi an amusing diversion from dueling the same meta builds over and over.

But you do realize that Anet is not making very much money from pro players right? They are making money from said new players that buy the game and gem store purchases. The competitive scene is a way for them to promote the game in a different way, but, like any promotion, costs money.

Balancing for competitive does need to improve, but if you’re allowing builds that newer, less experienced players are angry about continue to anger them that has more tangible consequences than the preferences of a tiny minority of your players.

#Moneyrulestheworld

When is this happening?

Blair.3796:

There is no longer any point in running turret engi, plain and simple.

Praise the lawd.

ArrDee.2573:

This change is silly! Unlike other AI builds, turret builds make the user completely worthless! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! So mighty! Plus turret Engineers can’t swap weapons and are absolutely worthless off point! It only makes sense that turrets are beefier and stronger than other forms of AI!

I would’ve thought the obvious change would be to have turrets scale with your stats! An Engineer that values damage while sacrificing defense will in turn provide frail, high-powered turrets and vice versa! That way someone that builds to be a bunker can’t deal much damage and someone that builds to be a damage dealer can’t take many hits! But oh well! That logic is wasted on the cele meta which some classes build to be a bunker AND deal decent damage! #Anet!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

This change would be more interesting that what Grouch is proposing. Might even result in turrets being used in unexpected ways.

ArrDee.2573:

This change is silly! Unlike other AI builds, turret builds make the user completely worthless! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! So mighty! Plus turret Engineers can’t swap weapons and are absolutely worthless off point! It only makes sense that turrets are beefier and stronger than other forms of AI!

I would’ve thought the obvious change would be to have turrets scale with your stats! An Engineer that values damage while sacrificing defense will in turn provide frail, high-powered turrets and vice versa! That way someone that builds to be a bunker can’t deal much damage and someone that builds to be a damage dealer can’t take many hits! But oh well! That logic is wasted on the cele meta which some classes build to be a bunker AND deal decent damage! #Anet!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Are we….frands?!? Wow i made a new one without even trying!

Yesss this exactly. This nerf was exactly what should not have been done. The reason people hate ai builds is that you have to fight ai. This nerf makes it so its easier to fight ai, but you still have to do it.

They should have gone with the route of balancing turret engie so that they dont do alot of damage while being crazy tanky. That would at least move the focus from fighting ai to fighting people. Now all that will happen is turret engies will set up their turrets in even more annoying places and run around the point avoiding getting hurt. Great change!

Hmm.. ToL 3 and Turret nerf… maybe I wont quit the game after all

Edit: RIP SoF ;(

+1 what liv said, that’s a first.

ArrDee.2573:

This change is silly! Unlike other AI builds, turret builds make the user completely worthless! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! Hip Shot! So mighty! Plus turret Engineers can’t swap weapons and are absolutely worthless off point! It only makes sense that turrets are beefier and stronger than other forms of AI!

I would’ve thought the obvious change would be to have turrets scale with your stats! An Engineer that values damage while sacrificing defense will in turn provide frail, high-powered turrets and vice versa! That way someone that builds to be a bunker can’t deal much damage and someone that builds to be a damage dealer can’t take many hits! But oh well! That logic is wasted on the cele meta which some classes build to be a bunker AND deal decent damage! #Anet!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

They would have to do it for every summons +1 though.

Sigh. I knew ANET would mess this up. How does this fix the cele rifle nade spam engi? All you did is make a lot of the turret engis now play that other spec. Looks like engi will continue to be broken.

The conditions part seems really insensible to me. There’s no rhyme or reason why bleeding should effect turrets. Since when do they have blood?!

While they need a significant nerf, them being susceptible to non-burning conditions makes ZERO sense. I think the ability to be critically hit and maybe a slight dmg decrease would be more than sufficient.

style.6173:

Sigh. I knew ANET would mess this up. How does this fix the cele rifle nade spam engi? All you did is make a lot of the turret engis now play that other spec. Looks like engi will continue to be broken.

Tournament of Celestial Amulets

I’d rather watch 5 minionmancers fight 5 turret engineers.

MailMail.6534:

The conditions part seems really insensible to me. There’s no rhyme or reason why bleeding should effect turrets. Since when do they have blood?!

While they need a significant nerf, them being susceptible to non-burning conditions makes ZERO sense. I think the ability to be critically hit and maybe a slight dmg decrease would be more than sufficient.

They could still have a liquid that would ‘Bleed’ out.

Cool turret engis are gone. Can we now focus on cele rifle nade engi? That spec is even worse and is just as broken.

DarkSyze.8627:

I want to also add: turret is not the main problem, the trait is. Why do you think no matter ow many “nerf” thief stealth get, it is still problematic?
Hint: it is their traits

Look at thief traits: do you see where the problems are?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_traits

Trickery- so many increase of stealings, Acrobatics- so many gains, Shadow Arts- so many stealths.

Why so many for 1 profession? Why is so many not the main problem? Why not fix source of problem first? Why not start fix in main problem first?

Same goes for all problematic professions: why after all “nerfs” they are still problematic? Again, the answer is in their traits, not their weapons, not their builds, not their skill.

Engnineer is 1 of the problematic professions: so why not nerf their traits? why not redesign their traits?

Here is Engineer traits: see if this nerf will change anything? Of course not!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_engineer_traits

I already see 3 category traits that are responsible for them being problematic: can you see them?

Hint: it is not Tools

You’re preaching to the choir here mate.

The community has lost hope of ever getting either active counters or a fix to stealth.

when you fight a thief build for stealth the only thing you can do is hurt them as bad as you can so they have to stealth away to recover.

in WvW the standard operating procedure against them is always the same.
put the hurt on, so they have to stealth away, but do not chase them trying to finish them off, it will almost never happen. aka stealth is a broken [censored] mechanic with no active counters.

I like how Bridger from Team Legacy puts it.

“any stealth mechanic which doesn’t have an active counter is just bad implementation.”

These words are even more powerful considering how powerful stealth is in any game that has it.

Lux.7169:

So from looking back on forum posts I never saw an intelligible discussion on why they are bad for the community in competitive play.

So this sounds like a hot join nerf. Why are the devs wasting time balancing HOTJOIN as opposed to addressing the real problems in competitive PvP? Here’s a couple quotes on point:

(list of quotes)

I don’t know how other people see comments like that, but for me, saying you beat the snot out of turret engis day in and day out which such confidence is kinda like saying you’re amazing in bed; Even if it isn’t true, you still say that about yourself because everyone else says that about themselves and it’s too embarrassing to openly admit otherwise.

That’s not to say that noone on that list has an easy time with turret engineers, but I’d be rather surprised if everyone who has ever professed their skill at conquering turret engis was completely honest and not stretching the truth even a little bit.

Though I see from a later post that you were kinda making a similar observation (Sarcasm on the internet is hard!)

Anyway, in memory of the (eventual) passing of the turret engi of old, I give you my two favorite turret engi moments

1.) My discovery of the turret engi, before the Rocket Turret fix/buff. Played about 4 matches in a row, camping the center point, winning every one. Last one was Spirit Watch, where I camped the orb spawning point to keep anyone but my team from taking and capping the orb. Right before that match started, a warrior that was on the opposition for the last three matches managed to get on my team. His first words after joining?

“I hate you.”

Laughed so hard… but I knew then that I had something that was too good, and running turret engi afterwards felt dirty, so I left it for celestial rifle instead (yes, that’s a joke… kinda…)

2.) Won a close Ranked PvP match vs. a team with both a turret engi and a decap engi, who were almost always together and seemed to always be at the same point I was. They weren’t that good; I’m conformable enough with my prowess to say that I usually have trouble with turret engis, and I pretty much always came up on top when fighting these two (though part of it might have been because it was Battle of Kylho and the guy on our treb actually did more that just spam mid) but they were probably a leading contributor to why the match was as close as it was. The way that the rest of my team responded to that though (it was either 3/5ths pre made, or I was the odd man out, can’t recall which) you’d have thought we lost by at least 300, and much of their ire was directed to the opposing team’s engineers. To say that they were “livid” after a close match to a pug team would be an understatement; I do believe that reports were made for some of the things they said.

This change need to be applied to pve for most environment items.

Alexander.9810:

Lux.7169:

Alexander.9810:

@ Lux

Nobody has been upset because it’s unbeatable except some of the more ignorant players. They’re upset because it is obnoxious to fight against, promotes laziness, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore.

That’s arbitrary though.

And actually I don’t mind fighting it at all, I actually enjoy fighting it a lot more than d/d ele or cele engie because those fights are boring. There, you’ve been proved wrong since you said no one wants to deal with it anymore. More evidence is the quoted players who, at the time they posted it, did not seem to have any qualms about fighting turret engies.

So based on your logic, if most people detest the cele meta they should just nerf it to the extent that turret engies were nerfed? Great, let’s get rolling with that. That will have a meaningful impact on COMPETITIVE play and would not just be a hot join nerf.

Why should devs waste the few precious updates and balances we get on nerfing things for HOTJOIN when they could make meaningful balance changes for PvP.

Clearly anyone who wasn’t horrible just steam-rolled turret engies, so that’s not the issue. Teams apparently just obliterated them so that’s not the issue. Thus, the issue must be that new players were being discouraged by them in hot joins… Sucks for them, but how about fixing competitive PvP instead?

Okay, maybe I shouldn’t have said nobody. Maybe I walked into that one. You obviously don’t miss details lol. Yes there are people who find Turret Engi an amusing diversion from dueling the same meta builds over and over.

But you do realize that Anet is not making very much money from pro players right? They are making money from said new players that buy the game and gem store purchases. The competitive scene is a way for them to promote the game in a different way, but, like any promotion, costs money.

Balancing for competitive does need to improve, but if you’re allowing builds that newer, less experienced players are angry about continue to anger them that has more tangible consequences than the preferences of a tiny minority of your players.

#Moneyrulestheworld

Kind of this, that’s why active to hardcore players don’t prefer f2p, game might like content and is advertised as a fashion show also why sub games are usually not casual those players are not usually interested in costumes but gameplay. I disagree on 1 thing tough the problem is the casual player focus there is a difference between active,casual and hardcore. The casual doesn’t want to learn,the active is fine with learning if fun,the hardcore wants to claim, GW2 removed learning treadmills and left casual out of control and unsupervised that’s why they call easy content hard,same with classes, it’s related to NPE and GW2 design but slightly off-topic.

They should have casual only as brand new, they should have filtered them into actives while leveling instead of karma train and alike. It’s ironic how they tried to separate modes but each ended affecting others anyway. What do the newer players understand of tournaments,rotations and alike they just throw money at the screen for costumes.

Latinkuro.9615:

DarkSyze.8627:

I want to also add: turret is not the main problem, the trait is. Why do you think no matter ow many “nerf” thief stealth get, it is still problematic?
Hint: it is their traits

Look at thief traits: do you see where the problems are?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_traits

Trickery- so many increase of stealings, Acrobatics- so many gains, Shadow Arts- so many stealths.

Why so many for 1 profession? Why is so many not the main problem? Why not fix source of problem first? Why not start fix in main problem first?

Same goes for all problematic professions: why after all “nerfs” they are still problematic? Again, the answer is in their traits, not their weapons, not their builds, not their skill.

Engnineer is 1 of the problematic professions: so why not nerf their traits? why not redesign their traits?

Here is Engineer traits: see if this nerf will change anything? Of course not!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_engineer_traits

I already see 3 category traits that are responsible for them being problematic: can you see them?

Hint: it is not Tools

You’re preaching to the choir here mate.

The community has lost hope of ever getting either active counters or a fix to stealth.

when you fight a thief build for stealth the only thing you can do is hurt them as bad as you can so they have to stealth away to recover.

in WvW the standard operating procedure against them is always the same.
put the hurt on, so they have to stealth away, but do not chase them trying to finish them off, it will almost never happen. aka stealth is a broken [censored] mechanic with no active counters.

I like how Bridger from Team Legacy puts it.

“any stealth mechanic which doesn’t have an active counter is just bad implementation.”

These words are even more powerful considering how powerful stealth is in any game that has it.

It doesn’t really help that Revealed in Wuv only lasts for 3 seconds, like in PvE, and not 4 second like in sPvP.

You’d think that just 1 second wouldn’t make that much of a difference, but oh boy…