Guild Wars 2

Introduction:
Hello everyone, High Warlord Sikari. I wanted to discuss an idea I’ve been piecing together for a little while that I shied away from discussing due to it being fairly controversial (no one wants to be nerfed). But with a little nudge and my passion for bringing back some of the old classes, as well as my love for the idea of elite specializations truly being “trade-offs”, I decided to throw it out there and just see where the discussion goes.

Note: Numbers and technicalities may need adjustments. Consider this as a basis for discussion, not a final call.

The General Idea:
The general idea I had is to introduce a relatively simple “Pure-Class Bonus”, which is activated if you currently have 3 base specializations set, similar to the special Icon on elite specializations, it would need a UI element to show you when this “bonus” is activated. The reason this type of idea is important is that the core class is intended to be more generalized, but there needs to be thematic benefits for using the base. Initially, Elite specializations were intended to be focused on a specific role, therefore, you would expect to “give up” something for a more specific benefit. This hasn’t been the case however for all but 2 classes (Guardian and Necromancer). For the most part there is no reason to revisit base classes since Elites tend to only gain in power over their base counterparts.

This is expected to become more problematic as more elite specializations are released in the future, especially as new specializations are set up to compete with our current elites, the issue should be addressed sooner rather than later, especially while class specializations are in early development. For the most part, giving classes a little uniqueness while an elite is not equipped doesn’t even have to be a hard task and separating Base from Elite could go a long way to combat the power creep we’ve seen.

The best way to explain the idea would be to just toss out several of the examples. Remember, the examples are ballpark ideas aimed to explain the direction I feel we should be moving toward.

Pure Class Bonus Examples:
Necromancer:
Necromancer is probably the easiest, since it currently substitutes the current Death Shroud with Reaper’s shroud which has a large and noticeable difference from the base Death Shroud. While the balance is not perfect, there are certainly things Death Shroud can do that Reaper’s Shroud cannot, and vice versa. This is not a hard balance discussion, so I will leave it at that. Necromancer has the ideal style of give and take to separate the classes, so much so that they feel like two entirely different classes.

Elementalist:
Elementalist is a bit more unique in the way that Attunements are handled. Seeing as how Tempest is designed around Overloads, my idea here would be to bump the natural cooldown of attunements to 12 seconds, but activating Overloads slightly sooner and keeping the 20 seconds overload Cooldown. With the Elementalist Purity activated, the cooldown of all Attunements would be reduced by 33% (8 seconds). This supports the concept of being a pure Elementalist practiced in their fluid shifting and handling of multiple elements. This natural increased cooldown also effects future specializations allowing more freedom of attunement play without having to be a blatant step up over the base Elementalist, who will always maintain that quicker attunement cooldown.
Side note: With the increased cooldown to Tempest’s attunements, it’s fair to discuss the effects of Chill on attunements. Be aware though, this would have to include alacrity!

Warrior:
I see Berserker as the specialization that goes nuts when triggered. As such, I think it could be very viable and thematic to give Warriors “Burst skills” all to themselves, the Warrior Purity bonus simply being “You gain access to Burst abilities based on your weapon of choice.” This would make Warrior the more steady fighter while leaving Berserker as the fighter who blows up and gains more quick access to their finishers but with the lock out of Enrage being on cooldown.

Now, I realize there might be some contest to this idea, though I find base-Burst abilities to not be used overly frequently on berserkers, I suspect some amount of resistance to not having burst skills outside of Berserker might spring up. To this I suggest either:
- Berserk skills are only available while Berserking. (As stated above, and in my opinion, the best way to divide the niches.)
- Or alternatively, Provide a weaker version of the Primal skills that are sub-par to Burst Skills that are enhanced to full power while Berserking. This isn’t ideal, but it is another option worth throwing out there for sake of discussion.

Thief:
Daredevil was not a major offender, but it does leave Thief feeling empty handed. While considering what it meant to be a thief, I decided this could be a great opportunity to take out two birds with one stone. Improvisation has become a highly problematic trait for reasons of fluctuating skill reset categories and RNG ‘over poweredness’. Overall, it’s not a fun situation. My idea with thief would be to have the “Thief Purity” become “When you steal, you may use the stolen object twice,” which makes perfect sense for the actual thief to be perfected in their stealing capabilities. This leaves Improvisation to a potential rework, which I suggest: “When you steal, the cooldown of the next utility you use is reduced by 50%. This makes it far less “rng” gives it very smart play and is generally more fun. Tuning may be necessary.

Mesmer:
What I’m about to say for Mesmer is not new, and has been said by others. Distortion is a defensive/Offensive skill, and so is CS, one is just used slightly different than the other. Together, however, they’ve proven to be highly problematic, and simply not fun to deal with (sorry, Chronomancers, but it’s true…) The Mesmer Purity would very simply give the Mesmer access to Distortion, while Chronomancer would still gain CS, but now as their f4 ability. This way, there is a distinct difference between how a Mesmer and Chronomancer goes about their defensive/offensive pressure with their f4 shatter.

Ranger:
Ranger is a bit harder simply because of how the Elite was handled. Unfortunately, we don’t know if ANet intends to have a Pet-Focused Elite specialization, so offering ideals here would be impossible. However, we do have two routes we could take:
- We could introduce a passive benefit which either affects Pet power or abilities or cooldowns, if they intend for Ranger to be the most pet-oriented “class” at its core over any elite specializations it could gain.
- Otherwise, we could introduce a more Ranger-general f5 cooldown ability that the Druid would not have access to.
I’d love for Ranger mains to chime in here and let me know what you think.

Revenant:
Revenant would most likely follow suit with Ranger. Because the design of Revenant already lacks a lot of flexibility as far as the Class Mechanic goes, a Revenant-general type f2 cooldown would likely be the best fit, likely one that is focused around the core Legends they have now. This is very open to discussion, since it could be anything, but I’d like to throw in an idea. Since Revenant at the basic level only has 4 Legends, it’s safe to assume they are likely to build around one more than the others. That is to assume, they might wish to stay in one legend longer rather than swapping each time they run out of Energy. My suggestion would be an F2 that has a 30-45 second cooldown that instantly gains 50 energy in your current Legend. This would support that flexibility of swapping or staying in a specific Legend longer, and would greatly differentiate the base Revenant from the Herald Elite.

Guardian:
Guardians, like Necromancer are already in a relatively good spot in terms of uniqueness. My primary problem with Guardian and Dragon Hunter is the blatant difference in power between their skills. Virtues could stand to be buffed and perhaps even gain some benefit to them that actually sets them apart from the Dragon hunter abilities.

Engineer:
Engineer is a real weirdo. I’m welcome to feedback, here. I’d imagine it would be similar to Thief or Elementalist by somehow giving them some benefits to their F-bar that are forgone with Elite Specializations. I’ll leave this one open because I honestly don’t have an idea that jumps out to me as a “great idea” that I must share, so feel free to add your input.

Conclusion:
As you can see, yes, there would be some amount of power lost from some of the current Elite specializations that could be considered a combat to the Power Creep, and each specialization would now have to consider some form of loss in return for their unique gain. Balance and numbers, while a concern, are not the primary focus of this discussion. The focus should be centered on making the core classes unique again, and paving the way for future elite specializations to ensure all future specializations are met with unique and interesting decisions to be made.

Thanks for reading, give it some thought.

Sorry, my spoiler tags aren’t working like they used to, so I just removed them for now. I tried to save you guys some space.

Feel free to crack the ice and keep it civil! Remember, this discussion is not 100% about balance but the design of the game and moving forward to keep base classes relevant and to improve on decision making and interesting choices among builds. And yes, to some extent, this would include an amount of power creep minimizing. These changes would also most likely not be without other balance considerations.

Anyways, thanks you and keep it civil, please!

+1 to OP.

A very well thought out idea; dev’s please take notice. This really does need to happen for the sake of balancing the elite specs with core classes. It’s not just about tweaking damage coefficients and CD’s like we saw in the last balance patch—the class mechanics themselves need to be on par between the elite specs and core.

It’s an interesting concept. As far as your ranger boost goes. In order for it to fit thematically with ranger. That IS a difficult decision.

I play a BM focused build. So I would inherintly focus on things like reduced pet f2 and special attack cooldowns. Meaning a full ranger could get more use from there primary class mechanic. Where as druids will have two class mechanics. But I feel that wouldn’t really change much ultimately unless it was so significant that it would probably be OP.

Druid just offers too much. Between Druidic Clarity Celestial Shadow and Ancestral seeds its almost impossible for me to justify taking Druid out of my build.

It isn’t even the healing of druid that causes me to take it. Its the CC and Utility that both solve the core issues of ranger.

If I was to suggest something that would enable ranger to not have to take druid. It would be a mechanic that allows it to get out of being gank locked like druid does. I swear for me at least thats the only reason I use it in PvP is to disengage. The ability to get out of immob/chill/stuns and then stealth away is pretty much what rangers HAVE to have to survive in the current meta.

Maybe something like the ability to break out of things like immobilize when we dodge roll. It would still cost us endurance but it might actually give rangers a tool to not get tied down without being forced into our “support” line.

No. Please no more power creep.

Tune the ESpecs down.

Especs are supposed to be “different ways” to play the class. But the thing is, now they are way too good to not take it, with some rare exceptions.

One of this exceptions, that shows how Especs are supposed (IMO) to work is the condi engineer. As a condi engi, going scrapper doesnt improve your dps, but can give you access to nice utilities and support, in exchange to dps (as you need all your utilities to get good dps as a condi engi).

So yea, tone the Especs down so they become a real trade off instead of the best choice for every build.

lLobo.7960:

No. Please no more power creep.

Tune the ESpecs down.

Especs are supposed to be “different ways” to play the class. But the thing is, now they are way too good to not take it, with some rare exceptions.

One of this exceptions, that shows how Especs are supposed (IMO) to work is the condi engineer. As a condi engi, going scrapper doesnt improve your dps, but can give you access to nice utilities and support, in exchange to dps (as you need all your utilities to get good dps as a condi engi).

So yea, tone the Especs down so they become a real trade off instead of the best choice for every build.

There is a level of power creep that cannot be undone. Elite specializations add elements to differentiate, it is no longer reasonable to expect that to be reversed. As it stands, if we just ignore it the best we can expect is choice between two elite specializations, assuming and hoping there is no proper creep from the next expansion over current elite specs.

This suggestion, which yes, buffs core specializations, it also in some cases nerfs the elites. I consider it a trade off to reduce current power creep, increase diversity and make a better foundation for future elite specializations so that power creep doesn’t need to keep happening in order to shape classes into unique sub-classes.

The element of “trade-off” has been missing from the start, and this is specifically to address that issue.

Edit: Perhaps you should just read some of the suggestions. In a lot of cases the “bonuses” to the core classes are things they already have, but are instead made core-only. That might address some of your concern too.

lLobo.7960:

No. Please no more power creep.

Tune the ESpecs down.

Especs are supposed to be “different ways” to play the class. But the thing is, now they are way too good to not take it, with some rare exceptions.

One of this exceptions, that shows how Especs are supposed (IMO) to work is the condi engineer. As a condi engi, going scrapper doesnt improve your dps, but can give you access to nice utilities and support, in exchange to dps (as you need all your utilities to get good dps as a condi engi).

So yea, tone the Especs down so they become a real trade off instead of the best choice for every build.

I do not see this idéa as a power creep as this would make un-used builds used and thus getting them on par with what is on the highest power level.

If I have two bottles of water, one is almost empty and the other is full. If we start to fill water in the full bottle it will overflow (Power creep) but in this case we will fill up the almost empty bottle and by doing that we will make it more interesting to take.
Just have to make sure not to fill up the almost empty bottle more than the full one.

I do not think that toning the E-specs down will help as it is not just DPS that is increased, just as you said for Engineer(Scrapper) they have the Function Gyro that is a real dealbreaker for engineers and then the hammer than not only does good DPS but has alot of blocks, finnishers and CC. Then like the mesmer who has the Shield with 1-2 loooooong blocks and evades while having phantasms, shatters and wells doing the damage for you and finally an extra shatter skill that not only shatters but can give you your skills back, elite or not. Well all classes has got new weapons, new blocks, new CC, heals and much more, It was a little too much of something that old weapons, traits and skills just didn’t give. I think that if they would tone down the E-specs they would have to remake weapon skills, traits and utility skills becouse it is not only the DPS that is too good.

Anyway, on to my answer to OP.

I love this idéa, not 100% perfectly fine with the suggestions to the classes but as you said they are made to be used as a ballpark. I can’t come up with better ones.

I main Engineer and the true mechanic of Scrapper is the function gyro I can think of a few wierd things like.

- Base Engineers have a base aura(AoE) that makes mechanical devices (Up to 5) immune to condition damage while they are close and not downed or dead. (This works on gyros too but ofc you need an Engineer and a scrapper to make it work)

- CD on toolbelt skills are -20% on base Engineer.

I originally had an idea of buffing the 3rd trait line unless its an elite spec to buff core specs but I love this idea so much more, since I believe its not just a power creep but more of a share especially with the mesmer chrono suggestion.
Could even make ele naturally have arcane traits such as elemental attunement or evasive arcana and then rework arcana

Thats good idea as well to change profession traitlines into elite. By going daredevil you wont be able to pick trickery, by going berserker you wont be able to get discipline, by going dragonhunter you wont be able to pick up virtues.

Sounds like fun and we was supposed to give up something by selecting elite spec either way. Lets do it

Ranger was made competitive via druid. It adds massive sustain, stunbreak and full condi clear for free basically. This is all stuff that is usually hard to fit into a build, druid just delivers it via an adept trait.

The obvious solution is taking some of that away from druid and adding it to core ranger. Astral force generation would have to be lower so that you cannot f5 literally every 10 seconds for stunbreak and full cleanse + massive heals. In exchange there should be much easier access do condi cleansing and sustain traits in core ranger. Right now you have to pick certain grandmasters and they don’t even do the job as good as druid adept.

Some efficient changes would be:

• finally add Empathic Bond to Beastmastery in exchange for the Axe trait for example, also make it transfer 1 condition every 5 seconds instead of 3 every 10.
• make healing spring more usable in PvP, it actually offers a lot utility witht the field and condi cleansing, it is just so weak heal per time that not even trap builds want to run a traited version, change that
• add small heals instead of regen (which we already get out of a million other sources) to warhorn trait ‘windborn notes’ (resistance might work too)

Stuff like that…

+1 i agree with the idea, especially for mesmer and warrior. Non elite ranger could get a f5 that gives them a buff depending on what type of pet they have out when they use it for example they gain +500 toughness for x seconds if they use it with a bear, +500 precision for x sec if they use it with a bird, ect.

Another way to ago about the ‘pure’ class is to turn the trait line that buffs the profession mechanic in to a vanila elite spec, and that is where the ‘pure’ buff could be placed

What if the trait line that enhances your profession mechanic was turned in to a elite specialization (discipline, trickery, soul reaping, beast mastery, illusions, tools, invocation, virtues, arcane). This way they can giving us some build diversity (before another expansion), you ether stick with the vanila elite specs (and therefor the base class name) and 2 other core ones or the HoT elite spec (and change to the different class name) and 2 other core ones.
Of course there would have to be some rebalancing done to make the ‘new’ vanila elite competitive in power to the HoT elite, but we can all agree that the game is in need of balance as is so it woild not be a big deal.

The reason i bring this idea up is because thees specializations are used in almost every build anyway (most warrior builds take discipline, every thief pick trickery, every guardian build pick up virtues, infact only mesmer, engineer and ele do not pick theirs currently) and by making them elite the players would be forced in to a choice, and non HoT players will have access to a competitive build. This is assuming they balance them according to the power level of HoT elite specs, and every future elite spec.

Amazing post OP, this threads are by far the best specially since 99% of the other threads here are just about whining.

I really hope OP’s posts gets read by someone of high rank.

These are great ideas and by design it ensures that the buffs wont help the elite specs at all which is a major hurdle when thinking about ways to help non-elite builds.

If this will go live, it will be done with some kind of mechanic that requires HoT. Vanilla and f2p accounts without HoT will never be on same power level with HoT ones. This is how MMO world works.

Your assessment that the problem will only get worse as more elite specs are released is completely false, the whole problem stems from there ONLY being 1 elite.
You can only have 1 elite spec equipped at a time, but you ALWAYS have at least 2 core specs at all times. As they release more elite specs the build variety will increase, while no mater what core specs will always be relevant because they are required.
Down the road when we have like 3 or more elite specs to choose from this system will work very well, its just a temporary issue of being shoehorned into 1 elite spec because thats all thats available to us at the moment.

Kayberz.5346:

Your assessment that the problem will only get worse as more elite specs are released is completely false, the whole problem stems from there ONLY being 1 elite.
You can only have 1 elite spec equipped at a time, but you ALWAYS have at least 2 core specs at all times. As they release more elite specs the build variety will increase, while no mater what core specs will always be relevant because they are required.
Down the road when we have like 3 or more elite specs to choose from this system will work very well, its just a temporary issue of being shoehorned into 1 elite spec because thats all thats available to us at the moment.

You’ve mistaken what problem would become worse. General diversity would increase. In a year’s time we might have 2 viable builds, sure, though, I wouldn’t consider that a ground breaking fix. The problem I’m referring to is that the longer this is ignored, the more obsolete playing a base class will become. For some classes that may not feel like it matters, but for others it most certainly does matter.

“When you steal, the cooldown of the next utility you use is reduced by 50%.” <<<how long does that buff last?

Generally though it won’t help thieves at all. I played core build entire season 1 and in season 2 (had to reroll in diamond). Reason why i had to reroll DD is because of revs and scrappers mainly. Anything rev/scrapper farts (passives/active skills) can pretty much 2 shot a thief hence why dodge spam is needed. Then we have 6 sec reveal on 20 sec CD which is absolutely devastating combined with amount of dodges you need to deal with those classes (e.g precision strike follows through stealth)- it made dp/sa pretty much obsolete, imo. Acro is still a joke, i am not even going there.

Even with improv and 50% CD redux on utilities nobody will (be able to) play core in higher divisions. Devs made sure you are a free fodder on core thief to rev/scrappers.

What needs to happen is that pure bonus gives you tools to deal with those issues, e.g. you become immune to reveal applied by enemy and to enemy’s offensive passives.

ronpierce.2760:

Kayberz.5346:

Your assessment that the problem will only get worse as more elite specs are released is completely false, the whole problem stems from there ONLY being 1 elite.
You can only have 1 elite spec equipped at a time, but you ALWAYS have at least 2 core specs at all times. As they release more elite specs the build variety will increase, while no mater what core specs will always be relevant because they are required.
Down the road when we have like 3 or more elite specs to choose from this system will work very well, its just a temporary issue of being shoehorned into 1 elite spec because thats all thats available to us at the moment.

You’ve mistaken what problem would become worse. General diversity would increase. In a year’s time we might have 2 viable builds, sure, though, I wouldn’t consider that a ground breaking fix. The problem I’m referring to is that the longer this is ignored, the more obsolete playing a base class will become. For some classes that may not feel like it matters, but for others it most certainly does matter.

The game is moving FORWARD, you always have the choice to run 3 base specs, but dont complain that your making yourself suboptimal, the game cant stay the same forever, as more skills are added more OLD builds will find more efficient ways to do things by taking advantage of the multitude of new abilities to complement their playstyle even better.
You cant expect to NEVER have to change from using pure vanilla builds to stay relevant
Most the people that complain about pure core builds not being viable are just either people who cant be bothered to buy the expansion or baddies who only learned to play their class ONE WAY and dont want to adapt to changing metas yet still want to compete with people who do

Kayberz.5346:

ronpierce.2760:

Kayberz.5346:

Your assessment that the problem will only get worse as more elite specs are released is completely false, the whole problem stems from there ONLY being 1 elite.
You can only have 1 elite spec equipped at a time, but you ALWAYS have at least 2 core specs at all times. As they release more elite specs the build variety will increase, while no mater what core specs will always be relevant because they are required.
Down the road when we have like 3 or more elite specs to choose from this system will work very well, its just a temporary issue of being shoehorned into 1 elite spec because thats all thats available to us at the moment.

You’ve mistaken what problem would become worse. General diversity would increase. In a year’s time we might have 2 viable builds, sure, though, I wouldn’t consider that a ground breaking fix. The problem I’m referring to is that the longer this is ignored, the more obsolete playing a base class will become. For some classes that may not feel like it matters, but for others it most certainly does matter.

The game is moving FORWARD, you always have the choice to run 3 base specs, but dont complain that your making yourself suboptimal, the game cant stay the same forever, as more skills are added more OLD builds will find more efficient ways to do things by taking advantage of the multitude of new abilities to complement their playstyle even better.
You cant expect to NEVER have to change from using pure vanilla builds to stay relevant
Most the people that complain about pure core builds not being viable are just either people who cant be bothered to buy the expansion or baddies who only learned to play their class ONE WAY and dont want to adapt to changing metas yet still want to compete with people who do

I appreciate the effort you’ve done ronpierce, and I do think that your suggestions are on the right track… however they are not enough.

For example: thief getting stolen skills twice… honestly that will not bring them at the same level as daredevil. And just because mesmer gets Distort and chrono doesn’t, chrono will still be stronger overall. Same applies for Berserker not getting the normal burst skills, but only his berserker burst skills.

- So if I say it’s not enough, what needs to be done to make it enough?

In this thread and many other threads there have been suggestions of making the ‘base class’ trait line LOCKED for elite specialisations. That way they don’t have access to it, so they give up stuff for picking their elite specialisations. Elite specialisations have too much synergy with the base class trait lines.

For example trickery is an awesome trait line, so is daredevil, makes sense that daredevil loses it. Same applies for all the other classes.

Sirendor.1394:

I appreciate the effort you’ve done ronpierce, and I do think that your suggestions are on the right track… however they are not enough.

For example: thief getting stolen skills twice… honestly that will not bring them at the same level as daredevil. And just because mesmer gets Distort and chrono doesn’t, chrono will still be stronger overall. Same applies for Berserker not getting the normal burst skills, but only his berserker burst skills.

- So if I say it’s not enough, what needs to be done to make it enough?

In this thread and many other threads there have been suggestions of making the ‘base class’ trait line LOCKED for elite specialisations. That way they don’t have access to it, so they give up stuff for picking their elite specialisations. Elite specialisations have too much synergy with the base class trait lines.

For example trickery is an awesome trait line, so is daredevil, makes sense that daredevil loses it. Same applies for all the other classes.

I considered that. Two problems strike up with that, and I’d say they are legitimate.
1. It might feel counter productive to make changes to increase diversity while removing diversity.

2. Some classes would need significant re-balancing since many of the Elite specs still rely on the old “class mechanic line”.

To extend on this, for example, Necromancer (most specifically for pvp) almost requires Soul Reaping because it’s the primary defense for Necromancer and generation/sustainability without it is too far diminished. Similarly, Fast Hands has become a core consideration of making a Warrior work in a lot of people’s minds, thief and initiative benefits too. Meanwhile, other classes such as Elementalist, Engineer and Revenant can forgo these lines without much consideration because while they affect the core of the class, the core of the class isn’t generally what makes each of those work.

I’m not off to it, but it’s a much deeper problem.

Sirendor.1394:

I appreciate the effort you’ve done ronpierce, and I do think that your suggestions are on the right track… however they are not enough.

For example: thief getting stolen skills twice… honestly that will not bring them at the same level as daredevil. And just because mesmer gets Distort and chrono doesn’t, chrono will still be stronger overall. Same applies for Berserker not getting the normal burst skills, but only his berserker burst skills.

- So if I say it’s not enough, what needs to be done to make it enough?

In this thread and many other threads there have been suggestions of making the ‘base class’ trait line LOCKED for elite specialisations. That way they don’t have access to it, so they give up stuff for picking their elite specialisations. Elite specialisations have too much synergy with the base class trait lines.

For example trickery is an awesome trait line, so is daredevil, makes sense that daredevil loses it. Same applies for all the other classes.

The elites are SUPPOSED to have synergy with base specs, a few years from now your builds are supposed to consist of 1 elite spec and 2 base specs, but at that point there would be multiple elite specs to choose from.
If you dont want to use an elite spec thats fine, but dont expect to be able to compete with people who are actually OPTIMIZING their class by taking advantage of new abilities available to them.

Im actually impressed with your modest suggestions for each class, you seem to care about fair play. As others have also said I dont think that this is enough though to truly balance out each profession.

Grimreaper.5370:

Im actually impressed with your modest suggestions for each class, you seem to care about fair play. As others have also said I dont think that this is enough though to truly balance out each profession.

Likely there would still be some nudges required to make it work. My biggest concern is that I strongly feel there needs to be SOME benefit for being a “base” class, and I also don’t want to hurt diversity in the process. This is a rough go at it, but the conversation is worth having.

ronpierce.2760:

Grimreaper.5370:

Im actually impressed with your modest suggestions for each class, you seem to care about fair play. As others have also said I dont think that this is enough though to truly balance out each profession.

Likely there would still be some nudges required to make it work. My biggest concern is that I strongly feel there needs to be SOME benefit for being a “base” class, and I also don’t want to hurt diversity in the process. This is a rough go at it, but the conversation is worth having.

Agreed, that’s why I really liked your entire post since it was not only about “Nerf this, overnerf that while simultaneously buffing this and overbuffing that”.

This would cause too many issues if new specializations are introduced. You basically have a new ele specilzation crippled by a 12s attunement swap when its based around swapping attunements.

you honestly think guard is in a good spot even though half the base skills (weopons,traits aswell)are useless in comparison to not to mention our sustain is awful its not wonder we are at the bottom when people think like this lol.

I agree, when you pick an elite spec you should be giving something up in return.
guardian/necromancers kinda do that.

But example, Chronomancer literally only gains things and doesn’t lose anything.
Changing or replacing all F1-4 skills ( making F4 CS ) would mean no distortion if you grab chrono, giving incentive ( example ) of sticking with base mesmer.

Same for thief, I personally feel like Daredevil isn’t a “thief” it’s like some acrobatic person, steal should be reworked or changed completely. Remove steal and 3 dodges as stances ? who knows. But it should help with making base classes viable again.

FrownyClown.8402:

This would cause too many issues if new specializations are introduced. You basically have a new ele specilzation crippled by a 12s attunement swap when its based around swapping attunements.

No, not quite. I essentially raised the attunement cooldown on a spec based around empowering their attunement and enduring longer cooldowns. The spec in no way is based around quick swapping, the whole idea of tempest is actually the longer cooldown for stronger attacks. If anything, I provided more incentive to use the overcharge by allowing it to initiate quicker. And yes, the idea is to push elite specs further into their niches to provide base specs with some retained unique power.

Elpredator.8523:

you honestly think guard is in a good spot even though half the base skills (weopons,traits aswell)are useless in comparison to not to mention our sustain is awful its not wonder we are at the bottom when people think like this lol.

No, I never said Guardian was in a good spot. I very specifically said that the STYLE of trade off is how it’s supposed to be, though the balance between base Guardian’s virtues and DH virtues is off. I was very clear on this. There are balance issues, but this is not a discussion on raw balance, but the need for a trade off between base classes and elite classes.

This is exactly the way to address the problem. It isn’t that elite specs are numerically superior necessarily, it’s that SOME elite specs just flat out got things added to it rather than having to give anything up. They weren’t side grades where your class mechanic changed, they were straight upgrades.

Your chronomancer fix is perfect. I thought it was strange that they just added another option instead of replacing an existing shatter with the new one.

Druid is by far the hardest to work with because they didn’t just get an addition to their class mechanic, they got a second class mechanic on top of it. On top of that ranger was in such a weak position before the expansion that it’s really hard to justify not using the vastly superior druid traitline in all my builds. Not because druid is OP compared to other professions but because core ranger traitlines are just so weak.

First suggestion to come to mind is to give rangers what we’ve been asking for since launch. The ability to control a second skill on our pets. This is both a small and large change and will give us much better usability from our pets. Just change F5 to petswap and jam the new skill into the F3 key, with F4 becoming Return.

But obviously this isn’t enough. I am going to hate myself for suggesting this, but it’s something I had assumed would happen when druid was announced and was surprised it didn’t.

Remove pet swap from the druid completely. Pet swap is the ranger’s class mechanic. Giving up the versatility of a second pet could offset the benefits of having access to Celestial Avatar. However the druid DOES still need to be able to keep their pet alive. How could they achieve this? Druid is a powerful healing spec. Making one of their minor traits provide a constant stream of additional heals to the druid pet in addition to the normal healing it gets could help keep it alive. Additionally make it so whenever the druid removes a condition from them self it also removes one from the pet.

The druid kills with their pet swap. Pet swap turns the smokescale into a tactical revenant that can be launched on command and the bristleback into a hidden machine gun. Forcing them to work with only one pet will cut into their potential damage a great deal, and make killing the pet a more viable counter to a druid who frontloaded all their damage into the pet in exchange for high sustain.

Then balance accordingly to make sure the druid can keep their pet topped off in group fights. Maybe make “Return” actually useful and teleport the pet back to the ranger/druid’s side so the druid can still pull their pet out of the fire when they need to. Or make Returned pets invulnerable until sent to attack again with a cooldown on returning the pet so the druid can semi-stow the pet during heavy AoE pressure.

Did not read. Too long + not enough time to spend on forums, but...

From the title alone:

Great idea. Much better than the armour and health tiers we have now.