Guild Wars 2

I’ll admit it. I miss the holy trinity. I really do. So much so that I’ve gone back to WoW for my PvP entertainment.

First things first. The omission of dedicated healers, tanks, and dps makes for a better leveling experience. I don’t miss having to level a tank through 80 levels of content. Nor do I miss the difficulty of finding a group because all I want to do is melt faces.

Then we get to PvP and that’s where the lack of different roles really hurts this game. Sure I can spec a bunker, or glass cannon but ultimately our range of gameplay revolves around self survivability and how much offense or defense we spec for. The trinity promotes team play by design. If you’re a healer you run with the tank. The tank protects the healer and the points. The DPS attacks the healer and so forth. Each role is defined and teamwork happens as a result regardless of map format.

The homogenized roles in GW2 offer very little enticement to play as a team or coordinate interesting forms of game play. To add to the problem we only have one game mode – “Capture the Point”. Can you think of a game mode that suits the Trinity better than Capture the Point? Tank holds point.. healer heals tank.. DPS tries to take point/defeat healer. There’s not much fun in 5v5 with DPS’ers of varying survivability trading points back and forth. There just isn’t.

I’m not foolish enough to think Anet can change its core game, but in order for PvP to flourish there NEEDS to be other forms of game play. Something that suits 5v5 where every player can contribute to the team mentality. I’m not sure what it is…maybe something like Huttball in SWtoR, AV in WoW, or a form of King of the Hill.

Everyone endlessly complains about class balance but quite frankly what’s the point? All the classes ultimately fill the same role. It’s just a matter of do you want to attack with arrows, a sword, a pet, a turret or clones. I miss the heroic feeling of keeping 4 other players alive or tanking a boss to win a map or dps’ing through a skilled healer at just the right moment.

That’s my rant. I realize that I’ve offered little solution to the problem, but at the very least somebody over there needs to think up a game mode that suits a team of 5 DPS better than “capture the point”.

Bunker is a combo of healer and tank. Roamer can be full glass or support oriented. Home point has multiple variations in how it can be defended. Honestly I think GW2 has very few homogenized compositions that do well in high level play. I like not having healers and I came from 6 years of WoWs dedicated healing in PvE and PvP. I feel players are left to their own skill now that an incredible healer cannot carry them which supports smarter play.

I won’t argue the system of course because it won’t change and it shouldn’t. It is a unique system that with more features and an active community will definitely take off. It is an adjustment, personally despite friends begging me to play wow I can’t go back. The stagnant combat, no movement while casting, and no dodge mechanic feels like PvP Stone Age.

Let’s have other objective type pvp maps, but getting rid of the holy trinity is one of the best features GW2 offers, and it ruins PVP in games that have it IMO. Ever play a healer in PVP? It’s horrible being marked and targeted 1st constantly.

I agree with you twoforty. I love GW2 and I am a huge pvp fan. I have spent years playing pvp and have always done very little pve. Right now the tourneys are just the free one round match and they are good but they could be so much better. I would love to see some more variety. DAoC has some good ideas to, I loved the battle for a mini keep inside a pvp zone where you had to gain access to the keep and then hold it. There are many other ideas floating around out there. I am sure we are far away from the end game in pvp/ tpvp. I hope that there are better things to come in the future. I hope soon because I feel like the pvp population is dropping especially among good players. Killing noobs is fun but I really enjoy and good battle with skilled pvp players win or lose.

Ant.3415:

Let’s have other objective type pvp maps, but getting rid of the holy trinity is one of the best features GW2 offers, and it ruins PVP in games that have it IMO. Ever play a healer in PVP? It’s horrible being marked and targeted 1st constantly.

Good point here and I forgot to talk about it. I like that there isn’t a dedicated healer class. Makes thing feel balanced. One of my favorite things about GW2 pvp as well!

Ant.3415:

Ever play a healer in PVP? It’s horrible being marked and targeted 1st constantly.

Now it’s just Necros that get marked and targeted 1st :P

Ant.3415:

Let’s have other objective type pvp maps, but getting rid of the holy trinity is one of the best features GW2 offers, and it ruins PVP in games that have it IMO. Ever play a healer in PVP? It’s horrible being marked and targeted 1st constantly.

How is it horrible? I loved being able to heal through insurmountable damage while my teammates tore appart those who were trying to kill me.

The only thing I didn’t like about being a healer was 1v1’s where I didn’t really have the ability to actually kill anything…

I do see distinct roles evolving in high level play though. There are clearly “tanks” who sit on the point and those who try to control the point from the outside (Generally referred to as a roamer). For the most part certain professions are locked into a certain role (Guardian = Mid point bunker, Mesmer=Close point defender, Thief=Roamer) but they aren’t all just DPS.

There is a lack of a dedicated healer though. Guardians probably come the closest but it’d be nice to see some builds that focused on offering a lot of team heals outside of Guardians.

All good points guys. Don’t get me wrong. I love the design of no Holy Trinity. It’s so much better for PvE content and leveling.

Thing is, with the Trinity game developers can afford to be a little lazy. Since it promotes out of the box teamplay you CAN make boring capture-the-point style maps fun and rewarding.

I guess that’s the biggest let down with GW2. Here they’ve gone and found a way to create a successful MMO without the Trinity, but have given us the laziest, most boring, non team oriented style of PvP map available.

Well, at least now you can’t just build for more damage and hope to be useful. You have to master more aspects of the game.

And about the roles… you still have to spike down a bunker to down him. A bunker can still stand epic battles against 2-3 other peope, holding for the time needed to victory.
And many in team fights can save their comrades, even without heals. Even boons are enough. And cc.

Actually, there are other roles, dependant on your mobility, resistance and damage on the battlefield. And are fairly complex, like the roamer. A well positioned roamer can both attack a point and come to save the bunker. It can really be a match-winner.

I agree with that ^. More balanced objective maps pushing towards SW and Temple would be awesome.

I came here to say one thing… Even though gw2 doesn’t really have a holy trinity… People have that mentality… I’ve ran with groups that believed the holy trinity exist in this game, and those who don’t…. Know what the difference was in the outcome? Not even 5 freaking minutes! GW2 took a risk in removing this trinity, and personally, I’m glad they did… But so many people refuse to accept this change… LF Zerker wars! >.>

PhelanDisturbed.1650:

LF Zerker wars! >.>

Kill fast, No Die!

twoforty.5236:

Sure I can spec a bunker, or glass cannon but ultimately our range of gameplay revolves around self survivability and how much offense or defense I spec for…..
…To add to the problem we only have one game mode – “Capture the Point”…

I’m not foolish enough to think Anet can change its core game, but in order for PvP to flourish there NEEDS to be other forms of game play. Something that suits 5v5 where every player can contribute to the team mentality.

…Everyone endlessly complains about class balance but quite frankly what’s the point?…

+1
An MMO not based around working with others is going to struggle to be an MMO worth playing.

And I am a silly enough to still have a lil hope.

No I disagree Twoforty.

Although GW2 has a large population, like WoW, the idea behind no Holy Trinity is actually designed for no ‘discrimination’ against other players. Think about it , we’re already seeing it in COF , 4 zerkers and 1 mesmer run.

Imagine, if there was a healing class, the whole party would be warrior and thiefs.

Two DPS classes that if they go full zerk gear + healer, they’d be OP.

No trinity gets rid of the ‘easiness’ behind most mmos, whats the point of sitting through 2 hour bosses fights in with the healers spamming 2-3 keys on a tank? Gets repetitive and very little effort is put into keep your party alive.

GW2= faster boss kills but more difficult.

That being said, everyone gets a slice of the pie and people make different classes because they all contribute equally. It’s a brilliant idea.

I remember most MMO’s I played, a few classes were always left out because the trinity worked so well with 3 classes so everyone rolled those classes to find a group.

@Scion.
Actually read the post.

Ant.3415:

Let’s have other objective type pvp maps, but getting rid of the holy trinity is one of the best features GW2 offers, and it ruins PVP in games that have it IMO. Ever play a healer in PVP? It’s horrible being marked and targeted 1st constantly.

‘ALL ON MONK!’
‘YOU ONLY WON BECAUSE YOU GOT A MO’
’KISS YOUR MONK FOR SAVING YOUR kitten ’

Aaah, don’t you just love those RA gems.

Joke aside, have you actually ever played in a proper pvp arena on GW1? I thought so.

No healer class was designed in such a good manner, as the monk class was on GW1 (especially the protection line). If you never had the chance nor the fortune to discover that, I cannot help but feel sorry for you.
And no, monks are never focused first in pvp. That’s just a baddie’s line of thought.

Holy trinity works great when approached and implemented in a proper manner, and GW1 is a living proof of that. It might have had plenty of issues too, but to this day, it is the SOLE game that has succeeded accomplishing that, which developed into what we know as one of the finest pvp games ever created.
Absolutely nothing can hold a candle to it, and likely never will.

I kind of feel the opposite of you. Guild Wars 2’s system requires much more independent skill regardless of comp compared to WoW arenas. So many comps in WoW allow at least one member of the team to tunnel vision targets, while the healer baby sits them and the third member peels & does damage. I feel like having to take care of yourself 100% of the time means players require a lot better self-awareness than in WoW, where you just have to keep LoS and kite when your healer’s CCed.

Team play in this game is still a very important aspect, the only real difference is the lack of baby-sitting. You still have to look out for your team; interrupting stomps, peeling damage, focusing targets, & calling cooldowns, the only difference is you have to be more adamant in taking care of yourself while doing all this.

The way the holy trinity promotes teamplay is through dependence, which is not the right way to go about things.

EDIT: Also, if you feel every class/build is the same and fills the same roles, you clearly haven’t played this game enough or kept up with the competitive scene.

The only exciting trinity so far is the one from gw1’s GvG.

It is made of:

- protection (and not healing)
- shutdown
- damage (driven by melee)

I know Izzy, lead designer on gw2 and the brain behind gw1’s skills, has been given a lot of crap throughout the years but what he accomplished with gw1 will probably make history:p

Yea, that trinity is the most unique pvp concept in an online game to this date, and Anet was a true pioneer in that regard.

Afaik, Izzy was the balancer (and admittedly, not the greatest one ever – his notorious dart-board balancing often caused discontent, and lead to overpowered gimmicks), while the game itself was designed by a trio of devs, 2 of whom have left Anet years ago already. I dare say it was at the time when the company started working on GW2.

History

ArenaNet was founded in 2000 by Mike O’Brien, Patrick Wyatt and Jeff Strain. All three of them came from Blizzard Entertainment and were previously involved in the development of multiplayer online games such as Warcraft, Diablo, StarCraft, World of Warcraft and the Battle.net gaming network.

The newly-formed business was originally called “Triforge”, but was changed to “ArenaNet” shortly after.

ArenaNet was acquired by NCsoft in 2002.

On September 10 2008 NCsoft decided to unite ArenaNet with NC Interactive, NC Europe and NC Austin under the management of a new organization, NC West, based in Seattle by the end of 2008.

^Around that time, things started going downhill (ok, it was at the end of 2007 already, but no where near as bad)

Jeff Strain was one of the three founders of ArenaNet, along with Patrick Wyatt and Mike O’Brien. He led the art and production teams for Guild Wars. In 2008, he left his position at ArenaNet to become the President of Product Development at NCsoft West. He left NCsoft West on August 11, 2009.

Patrick Wyatt was one of the three founders of ArenaNet, along with Mike O’Brien and Jeff Strain. He led the network and technology teams for Guild Wars. In 2008 he left his position at ArenaNet to become the Chief Technology Officer (CTO) of NCsoft West, a position he held until October 2009. Currently, Patrick Wyatt is the Chief Operating Officer of En Masse Entertainment.

So out of the original trio that created GW1, only one of them was left in charge for GW2.
I wonder if the reason why the other two left Anet was actually GW2 itself. I woulnd’t be surprised at all, if that was the case.

History on its best. Both went to NC-Soft and left after a year. NC-Soft is not shining in a good position in this story.

The way I read it is that these 2 people did not design the game but were in charge of the operations and the art.

I think the designers who actually worked on the combat are izzy and Jon peters. I don’t know if chap was already in the team though.

However I wouldn’t be surprised if the 2 co-founders left arenanet because of gw2:p I remember there was a time in 2008 when we were told gw2’s development was going a complete overhaul.

I find it funny that the people against the trinity cite terrible PvP games as their argument against it (seriously, WoW? Come on guys.)

Why not look to a game that implemented a trinity quit well?

GW1’s “trinity” worked nothing like the traditional trinity of other games, though others have done enough to paint a picture of it. By design, the system created an intricate level of teamwork beyond the usual tank being tanky, healers healing and DPSers, well, DPSing. This is largely because there were MORE roles than just these three, many more in fact, and each profession (for the most part) had a wide range of capabilities to spec for.

The problem with GW2 is that, while they did remove the trinity – a move that I don’t think is necessarily bad – they failed to replace it with anything. We are left with professions that support themselves while still being pigeonholed into specific roles of bunker or glass cannon. Essentially, we now have a holy duality with little extra flavor, and limiting support capabilities to self-support has only moved this game away from a competitive teamwork oriented MMO to something that resembles an FPS.

When people on these forums say GW2 takes more individual skill, it is because that is frankly all the majority of builds need to be responsible for. Teamwork in GW2 consists of occasional focus fire, possibly sharing a few boons or condi removals that you’ve cast for yourself, and, due to the single game mode we have, where to properly allocate team members to capture/hold points. Despite what you may think, this creates VERY little depth.

My suggestions would be to buff support roles in ALL classes (I.E. any class may spec for GROUP support that is ACTUALLY beneficial). Additionally, mechanics should be added, again, to EACH profession that would allow for a spec for shutting down said support. In my opinion, damage should also be cut across the board in order to force greater team coordination, but this is not as essential.

Support and shut down are just two roles that could be easily added to the game using its current mechanisms, but there are also many other roles that could be added that would greatly improve the quality of teamplay (just look to GW1 for inspiration). While each profession should be able to assume any role – assuming this is properly implemented – each one would also bring its own unique flare to that role, creating vast opportunity for extensive teamcraft.

ANet really wanted to scrap the idea of the holy trinity for one reason: people were tired of every group requiring a certain profession assuming a certain role (LF 2 Monks anyone?) I think they went about fixing this all wrong.

With the way GW2 works now, each profession is running around trying to do the same thing (or one of two things, in this case), and the only difference between them are gimmicks, more or less. A specific profession will either excel as a self-supporting bunker spec or a self-supporting DPS spec. While the different professions go about these two roles in different ways, once you understand how each class works, the lack of variety becomes painfully obvious.

I believe that the anti-trinity mindset has led to the severe lack of roles and the ultimate denigration of true team play. Unfortunately, it seems everyone who hasn’t given up on Guild Wars PvP actually enjoys the FPS style of gaming – I assume because they’ve only experienced sub-par PvP as found WoW and it’s 7823434 clones.

tl;dr: anti-trinity —> anti-roles —> anti-teamplay --> anti-PvP

Also, lol @ all the talk of eSport on these forums. It makes my brain hurt.