Guild Wars 2

Buran.3796:

ellesee.8297:

And you know what Blade and Soul has! Weekly tournaments! World championships! TV broadcasts! Just goes to show what a game can accomplish when you have devs who are worth a doot! The game mode helps too! What a surprise the arena game mode makes MMO PvP fun and competitive with the possibility of esportz! Who woulda thunk it! If only someone, or many someones, could have suggested it on these 4ums!

Ah well what’s past is past my frands! I hope you all have a great time playing Guild Warts 2. I’m sure it’s still a gr8 game.

haHAA

I oftenly check the numbers of GW2, ESO, BDO and Blade & Souls on Twitch.tv and all of then had pretty much the same crappy audience, at parsecs of distance from any remotely popular esport game (Counter, Overwatch, LoL, Dota…). Your little snowflake is as relevant and popular as GW2; is the same pulpy, undernourished dog with different collar…

Oh you are silly! Why would you say something that can be objectively proven false! It’s true, normal strims get only a little more views than Guild Warts! But we are talking about PvP! The tournaments in Blade and Soul attract way more numbers than the tournaments in Guild Warts! Wait, there are no tournaments in Guild Warts!

https://sullygnome.com/Game/Guild_Wars_2
https://sullygnome.com/Game/Blade_and_Soul

Look at that spike! 10000 viewers for a small weekly tournament! I wonder how many viewers the worlds tournament will have later this year!

Crinn.7864:

I legit forgot Eye for an Eye. The others I do not count because they require active play from the player, or existed in the Core game.

All of the traits i named can be procced on an afk player. It can’t get more passive.

Forsty.7968:

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

Unless i wanted to compete in serious (now non-existent) tournaments , which i never did, i definitely get away with spamming skills. Maybe you don’t, but that’s why i didn’t wrote “all”. I also didn’t said or think, the game requires no skill at all. But i wonder, if that high skill cap you are talking about, is caused by mechanics/traits/skills added by HoT (which?), or more because players who practise and “try-hard” over an extended period of time naturally become better and discover “new” stuff, which will automatically raise the cap over time?
Also when watching post-HoT tournaments it always looked like matches are won mostly by rotations and coordination as a team, instead of individuals outplaying each other in even fights. Of course this doesn’t mean, there is no skill requirement, or that rotations were not important in the past. But it seems like even the best players can’t rely much on their personal skill. Or would you want to 1vs1 a dh as mesmer, knowing that you are the better player? And would the dh want to 1vs1 a druid? Even if it was filthy casual like me? Unless the skill gap is huge, the answer is no, right? But if even the best players can’t rely on their personal skill, then how should i be able to?
I loved this game because of the combat. It was the fights that i enjoyed. Not the rotating or capping, that’s just stuff that had to be done, because i didn’t want my team to lose. But if the majority of “fights” are either boring stalemates or decided before they even beginn – and that’s what happened for me – it’s not fun anymore.

You didn’t like HoT so you didn’t buy it and went in full steam with your core class thinking it was balanced. You tried and tried but the elites had an unfair advantage so you quit and never returned.

You did buy HoT you have an elite you try the season and dominate like shooting fish in a barrel. The people your killing aren’t bad players there doing what their supposed to do but you have stronger cards in your deck. You play and win but are bored no one likes to actually shoot fish in the battle people need challenge. As a Chrono whether I’m fighting against another chrono or a core mesmer they should both provide the same challenge.

Balance was so bad certain people exploited it and got bored in the end a ball started an that ball picked up other issues and all the issues both big and small combined and started to knock out any desire people had to play. No one issue is ever the cause of these things but a multitude of issues left to fester and compile till it’s simply too much for players to deal. My main issue was the powercreep but other people have different backs and issues that broke them.

ellesee.8297:

Buran.3796:

ellesee.8297:

And you know what Blade and Soul has! Weekly tournaments! World championships! TV broadcasts! Just goes to show what a game can accomplish when you have devs who are worth a doot! The game mode helps too! What a surprise the arena game mode makes MMO PvP fun and competitive with the possibility of esportz! Who woulda thunk it! If only someone, or many someones, could have suggested it on these 4ums!

Ah well what’s past is past my frands! I hope you all have a great time playing Guild Warts 2. I’m sure it’s still a gr8 game.

haHAA

I oftenly check the numbers of GW2, ESO, BDO and Blade & Souls on Twitch.tv and all of then had pretty much the same crappy audience, at parsecs of distance from any remotely popular esport game (Counter, Overwatch, LoL, Dota…). Your little snowflake is as relevant and popular as GW2; is the same pulpy, undernourished dog with different collar…

Oh you are silly! Why would you say something that can be objectively proven false! It’s true, normal strims get only a little more views than Guild Warts! But we are talking about PvP! The tournaments in Blade and Soul attract way more numbers than the tournaments in Guild Warts! Wait, there are no tournaments in Guild Warts!

https://sullygnome.com/Game/Guild_Wars_2
https://sullygnome.com/Game/Blade_and_Soul

Look at that spike! 10000 viewers for a small weekly tournament! I wonder how many viewers the worlds tournament will have later this year!

A little cold water for the super fanboyism:
https://mmos.com/editorials/blade-and-souls-fading-esports-dream

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

I dont understand how you can say that.

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

I will take myself as a example. I have always considered myself a above average player. Cant really compete vs the ESL players but better then the majority.

In the old solo que i was rated in the top 300 if i remember correctly and i was in the top 500 for team rank. ( alot of yolo que)

Ill drop a pic of my rating last season.

Nothing has changed, pre HOT and post HOT the players are near the exact same skill floor.

All that changed was HOT created some of the most unfun build diversity/ team comp diversity/ and broken game play since this games launch.

I truly dont understand how increasing the speed of the game 10X, by adding things like engy hammer which has a reflect, block, movement speed and a high damage combo is more skilled.

Or a ranger staff which has a gap closer/heal, a passive attack which is a heal and team utility condi removal with a massive boon up keep more skilled.

My favorite is them turning classes like warrior which was about timing. Into a complete spammer with head butt which breaks stun and then stuns you. Then using a burst attack which damages you and then heals me. Then i use utility traits where many classes cant hurt me. Which now forces mesmers to take a shield and spam distortion, sword 2 etc etkitten

erally nothing about HOT is more skilled, does it take some skill to play? Of course which is why there are so many complaints on the forum. But we care comparing playing chess pre hot to connect the dots.

kdaddy.5431:

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

That’s not how skill ceilings and floors work. The skill ceiling is simply the point where you can no longer become better because you are playing perfectly.

Raising the skill ceiling does not magically make top players not top. Changing who the top players are requires other players to become better than the top players.

My favorite is them turning classes like warrior which was about timing. Into a complete spammer with head butt which breaks stun and then stuns you. Then using a burst attack which damages you and then heals me. Then i use utility traits where many classes cant hurt me. Which now forces mesmers to take a shield and spam distortion, sword 2 etc etkittenerally nothing about HOT is more skilled, does it take some skill to play? Of course which is why there are so many complaints on the forum. But we care comparing playing chess pre hot to connect the dots.

Warrior is still about timing though. You don’t spam Heatbutt.

Also having damage negation skills is absolutely necessary to having a skill intensive game. If you don’t have such skills the game becomes a literal DPS burn, where it just about whoever does the most DPS first. Having negation skills requires players to bait and juke.

Exept of Rev’s Sword 2nd attack (did 6k pierce) + Ranger’s 2 HoT pets (flame drake+turtle) ,
the community needed 1 year to aknolwghe Trap Guardians
+ Stuff Thiefs +Spamm Headshot
+ Warriors (yeah after the 1sec burn buffs in various weapons skills ,ppl started using them)
+ Condition Mesmers (8 months before the x-pack when they buffed the auto attack > ppl claimed that it wouldnt work in conquest because you had to use various ammount of stealth) .

In which part they created HoT powercreep , when the community didnt found out … or the spamming in the forums that ‘’it wont work in competive lvl’’ , in order to secretly protect it ?

In season 1+2 every1 where moaning about the bunker -Celestial meta (where the pro introduced it) , telling the company that they should remove it and that way the skillcap and the fast paced would be increased , so it can highlight the beautiful engine .
And when they removed it , ppl started moaning again and threaten to leave the game , telling that the company listened to the casuals ?

I am sorry , but near the nex x-pack can you stop giving infractions for 1 month , so i can have some ‘’nice conversation’’ to various oathbreakers ?

Everyone quit due to the balance changes, or the lack of. We played the same boring specs vs the same boring specs for at least 6 months. And we wait eagerly for a balance patch, and nothing changes at all.

Its like a kid at christmas gets super excited about whats to come because he never gets given anything except at christmas.

Then for christmas he gets literally nothing. It makes people demoralised and give up on the game.

This problem was created over multiple seasons.

The “competitive” matchmaking of s2-s3 was a big contributor. I find it amusing to see some of the same players who liked that system so well now complaining about being matched above there skill level.

I assume that it’s fun to crush games and exploit “noobs.” The problem is that sooner or later you run out of people willing to put up with it.

Now the rewards are too low to make it worthwhile for many players. They know they will be going into class stacked, uneven matches. That simply isn’t fun.

Et Voila, you get the situation we have now.

Sadly, I suspect that much of the development resources at ANET have been focused on raids and the new animated armor set.

Ithilwen.1529:

This problem was created over multiple seasons.

The “competitive” matchmaking of s2-s3 was a big contributor. I find it amusing to see some of the same players who liked that system so well now complaining about being matched above there skill level.

I assume that it’s fun to crush games and exploit “noobs.” The problem is that sooner or later you run out of people willing to put up with it.

Now the rewards are too low to make it worthwhile for many players. They know they will be going into class stacked, uneven matches. That simply isn’t fun.

Et Voila, you get the situation we have now.

Sadly, I suspect that much of the development resources at ANET have been focused on raids and the new animated armor set.

Every single ESL or near ESL player disliked stackign once they got into legendary. It was ok getting us into the right division but after that we wanted it disabled.

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

I dont understand how you can say that.

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

These are the kind of people that most people in the forums agree with nowadays, amazing isnt it.

I can say that because i play at that level. HoT complicated the game. I mean if you take for example mesmer youd be crazy to think pre hot power mesmer was harder to play perfectly than condi. Even the skill floor raised on mesmer.

ellesee.8297:

BnS is just simply the better game! I encourage people here to join some veteran Guild Warts 2 players like me, Ostrich Eggs, and many more and play some fun, competitive PvP

No offense to Ostrich but he stopped being competitive the moment The Abjured kicked him off the team.

Please tell me again about all of these Ex-GW2 competitive players being top 100 in this other mmorpg, a game where Rank PvP is filled with these so-called Destroyer Bots.

Hot heavily lowered the skill floor. That’s a fact.
Elite specs almost exclusively buffed or added things the profession was lacking without needing to make any other compromises. That’s why everything became easier to play.

In terms of skill ceiling… Well you may argue that you can play a more complex game, but mostly you are good doing the same few things over and over again. Also because professions became a ot more forgiving you simply have no need for a perfect play to work. Also elite specs being pretty much mandatory have equal chances limits vuild variety by quite a bit.
As a rule of thumb you could say that before hot almost every class had 2 trait lines that were almost mandatory to use and the 3rd could be exchanged to your likings and playstyle… Now that 3rd simply has the be the elite spec.
I know this doesn’t apply to every single class but in general this is the case and the reason why there is hardly room for creativity.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Everyone quit due to the balance changes, or the lack of. We played the same boring specs vs the same boring specs for at least 6 months. And we wait eagerly for a balance patch, and nothing changes at all.

Its like a kid at christmas gets super excited about whats to come because he never gets given anything except at christmas.

Then for christmas he gets literally nothing. It makes people demoralised and give up on the game.

So now that the game is actually the most balanced its been in ages, you could argue most balanced ever, youre complaining about it being boring? Its time to stop man, youll never be happy with the game.

Saiyan.1704:

ellesee.8297:

BnS is just simply the better game! I encourage people here to join some veteran Guild Warts 2 players like me, Ostrich Eggs, and many more and play some fun, competitive PvP

No offense to Ostrich but he stopped being competitive the moment The Abjured kicked him off the team.

Please tell me again about all of these Ex-GW2 competitive players being top 100 in this other mmorpg, a game where Rank PvP is filled with these so-called Destroyer Bots.

OE was on a team that placed 4th on that last Pro Season, i dont know if you call that not being competitive.

Forsty.7968:

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

I dont understand how you can say that.

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

These are the kind of people that most people in the forums agree with nowadays, amazing isnt it.

I can say that because i play at that level. HoT complicated the game. I mean if you take for example mesmer youd be crazy to think pre hot power mesmer was harder to play perfectly than condi. Even the skill floor raised on mesmer.

Wow explain to me then.

If the skill floor changed why are the exact same players the meta?

Tarcis was still the number 1 warrior ( or 2nd) and it didnt matter if he played core or HOT version. He stayed at that level.

Helseth Pre HOT was probably the best mesmer in the game, crazy thing happened he was still the best mesmer after.

If we want to make a comparison, its like the NBA right now. Today there are more 3’s being shot then ever before. The speed of the game is much higher and shots are being taken like they were in the 70’s. The game has changed drastically since the 90s. HOT and Pre HOT.

Can the teams today like Golden State and Cleveland beat the 98 bulls or the 95 Rockets?

You and crinn talk about how the skill level increased, my question is for who since all the best players easily adjusted to it?

Even above average players like myself fell into the exact same rank as before.

All my points still stand, just like the NBA today. Every team in the nba playoffs play nearly the exact same. Ball dominant scorers, 4 all around players that can all do a little of everything.

In the 90s you had alot of specialist and alot of different styles of ball.

Pre HOT there was alot of different team comps. You saw it with EU vs NA how they always had different set ups.

HOT is so broken that Five Gauge (maybe the best engy in the game) tried to play ranger because its simply better for team comps.

That isnt increased skill level, that isnt more build diversity, that isnt a evolution of game play and a higher skill floor.

Anyone can say what they want and X says this because he plays at X level.

Im using literal examples which are true, im using myself as a example which is also true. Im pointing out things that almost everyone can agree with when it comes to game play.

You and crinn have just argued my points and if i may say. Its a weak rebuttal at best. Crinn said at 1 point guardians sat on virtues ……………

You have said this is the most balanced the game has been maybe ever.

If that was true you would see more then 1 build more most classes. Like we had Pre HOT

The majority of core GW2 builds don’t really live up to the levels of elite spec builds, that’s pretty much a fact. Outside of niche stuff like condi engi, necro, thief maybe burn guard there’s not much else which would be comparable to elite spec builds.

When you think of balance that way (core v elite), the balance is super poor. However, if you look at the class distribution, every class now has playable builds utilizing elite specs which sorta makes the balance ok there.

It all depends what you’re looking at and I think both of you are right in your own way.

It’d be nice to see more variety on various classes though, especially on classes like Ele & Rev.

Forsty.7968:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Everyone quit due to the balance changes, or the lack of. We played the same boring specs vs the same boring specs for at least 6 months. And we wait eagerly for a balance patch, and nothing changes at all.

Its like a kid at christmas gets super excited about whats to come because he never gets given anything except at christmas.

Then for christmas he gets literally nothing. It makes people demoralised and give up on the game.

So now that the game is actually the most balanced its been in ages, you could argue most balanced ever, youre complaining about it being boring? Its time to stop man, youll never be happy with the game.

Just because the game is balanced doesn’t mean it’s fun. If everyone can kill anyone with little to no effort it’s no fun. If passive traits and procs do half the work it isn’t fun. If you barely need to time your skills but just keep spamming your rotation until someone dies it isn’t fun.

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

I dont understand how you can say that.

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

These are the kind of people that most people in the forums agree with nowadays, amazing isnt it.

I can say that because i play at that level. HoT complicated the game. I mean if you take for example mesmer youd be crazy to think pre hot power mesmer was harder to play perfectly than condi. Even the skill floor raised on mesmer.

Wow explain to me then.

If the skill floor changed why are the exact same players the meta?

Tarcis was still the number 1 warrior ( or 2nd) and it didnt matter if he played core or HOT version. He stayed at that level.

Helseth Pre HOT was probably the best mesmer in the game, crazy thing happened he was still the best mesmer after.

You and crinn talk about how the skill level increased, my question is for who since all the best players easily adjusted to it?

You and crinn have just argued my points and if i may say. Its a weak rebuttal at best.

Your “point” doesnt make sense. The good people dont suddenly get bad at the game when it gets harder and the bad people dont suddenly get good at the game when it gets harder.

Why do you think the top players were the top players before HoT? Why would you ever think some other people would replace them? Skill floor has nothing to do with the top players. Complicating the game doesnt mean the game is going to change into a completely new one. What the kitten is going through your mind even, are you actually kittened?

Entenkommando.5208:

Forsty.7968:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Everyone quit due to the balance changes, or the lack of. We played the same boring specs vs the same boring specs for at least 6 months. And we wait eagerly for a balance patch, and nothing changes at all.

Its like a kid at christmas gets super excited about whats to come because he never gets given anything except at christmas.

Then for christmas he gets literally nothing. It makes people demoralised and give up on the game.

So now that the game is actually the most balanced its been in ages, you could argue most balanced ever, youre complaining about it being boring? Its time to stop man, youll never be happy with the game.

Just because the game is balanced doesn’t mean it’s fun. If everyone can kill anyone with little to no effort it’s no fun. If passive traits and procs do half the work it isn’t fun. If you barely need to time your skills but just keep spamming your rotation until someone dies it isn’t fun.

^^ this id rather more class distinction more characteristic skills even if game felt more unbalanced

fishball.7204:

The majority of core GW2 builds don’t really live up to the levels of elite spec builds, that’s pretty much a fact. Outside of niche stuff like condi engi, necro, thief maybe burn guard there’s not much else which would be comparable to elite spec builds.

When you think of balance that way (core v elite), the balance is super poor. However, if you look at the class distribution, every class now has playable builds utilizing elite specs which sorta makes the balance ok there.

It all depends what you’re looking at and I think both of you are right in your own way.

It’d be nice to see more variety on various classes though, especially on classes like Ele & Rev.

Question?

So i use to run some wacky builds pre hot, like i use to run hammer rifle with carrion amulet.

I did power/ arms /defense

For the condi interrupt and the always crit on F1 for kill shot.

I use to beat people all the time even whent he d/d meta was going on.

So my question is doesnt it take more skill to play against multiple builds?

I mean right now HOT hard counters so many things, build variety can change it. For instance i use to see phanta all the time use a s/f aire ele in unranked and he would crush people. Every now and then you find a p/p thief and it could work if the other player didnt know what to do.

Doesnt HOT specs kill alot of builds therefore making game play easier when you know your gonna see alot of the same builds? And even if they decide to run something non meta, you dont even need to change anything to counter it. You simply wait since now a shout can reflect for the whole team.

Doesnt it simplify the game?

Forsty.7968:

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

kdaddy.5431:

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

I dont understand how you can say that.

How does the HOT create a higher skill cap when the same players in the game are at the same level?

Take the top 15 NA players and the top 15 EU players pre hot and post hot. Guess what the list is the exact same.

These are the kind of people that most people in the forums agree with nowadays, amazing isnt it.

I can say that because i play at that level. HoT complicated the game. I mean if you take for example mesmer youd be crazy to think pre hot power mesmer was harder to play perfectly than condi. Even the skill floor raised on mesmer.

Wow explain to me then.

If the skill floor changed why are the exact same players the meta?

Tarcis was still the number 1 warrior ( or 2nd) and it didnt matter if he played core or HOT version. He stayed at that level.

Helseth Pre HOT was probably the best mesmer in the game, crazy thing happened he was still the best mesmer after.

You and crinn talk about how the skill level increased, my question is for who since all the best players easily adjusted to it?

You and crinn have just argued my points and if i may say. Its a weak rebuttal at best.

Your “point” doesnt make sense. The good people dont suddenly get bad at the game when it gets harder and the bad people dont suddenly get good at the game when it gets harder.

Why do you think the top players were the top players before HoT? Why would you ever think some other people would replace them? Skill floor has nothing to do with the top players. Complicating the game doesnt mean the game is going to change into a completely new one. What the kitten is going through your mind even, are you actually kittened?

Your not saying anything,

My point about the Pro players was nothing changed. My point about myself was nothing changed so what evidence do you have that the skill floor actually changed?

How did you miss that?

It changed for new players coming in who want to play thief or ele and dont look at meta battle and die instantly to traps?

Thats not skilled game play at all.

You want to play a core build and forgot YOU HAVE TO STABILITY to play against a warrior. Your a fish in a bucket for the head butt and mace F1 spam you are about to see.

Thats not skilled game play. There is no give and take in HOT.

You are literally missing all the points. You said this is the most balanced the game has been maybe ever. You said HOT is more skilled game play. If that it so why is everyone running the same builds?

Lick form necros are dead, rampage warriors are dead, banner warriors are dead, etc etc etc.

What we got in its place was a super build for each class. Pre HOT you could of faced a shoutbow warrior or a rampage warrior on most occasions. And if they werent they still could possibly be running something that could ruin your build like if you brought stun breakers instead of condi cleanses.

At the end of core GW2 people where screaming that d/d ele was OP and it was.

Look at these threads now, DH is broken, thief is broken, warrior is broken etc etc etc.

If the game was more SKILLED game play people wouldnt be constantly talking about how HOT specs have ruined PvP and WvW so much.

Ithilwen.1529:

Sadly, I suspect that much of the development resources at ANET have been focused on the expansion pack and the properly finishing off the LW3 that is leading up to it.

FTFY

Stop moaning with hypothetical views that raids take up like majority% of the development time.

Entenkommando.5208:

Forsty.7968:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Everyone quit due to the balance changes, or the lack of. We played the same boring specs vs the same boring specs for at least 6 months. And we wait eagerly for a balance patch, and nothing changes at all.

Its like a kid at christmas gets super excited about whats to come because he never gets given anything except at christmas.

Then for christmas he gets literally nothing. It makes people demoralised and give up on the game.

So now that the game is actually the most balanced its been in ages, you could argue most balanced ever, youre complaining about it being boring? Its time to stop man, youll never be happy with the game.

Just because the game is balanced doesn’t mean it’s fun. If everyone can kill anyone with little to no effort it’s no fun. If passive traits and procs do half the work it isn’t fun. If you barely need to time your skills but just keep spamming your rotation until someone dies it isn’t fun.

No idea where youre pulling the little effort to kill from. Passive traits and procs have always been a thing. Spamming a rotation will never work in this game properly. To be efficient you need to actively make decisions when youre fighting.

PvP seems pretty vibrant and active for a dead thing… are you sure you don’t wanna try this topic again?

Amaimon.7823:

PvP seems pretty vibrant and active for a dead thing… are you sure you don’t wanna try this topic again?

Your denial is showing.

Hot did in fact kill any sort of competitive aspect for this game, especially in regards to pvp. Elite specs are one of the reasons for this. They are built around playing passively which the game should have never been about in the first place. Damage was ramped up to an all new level which made fights to quick. The most viable way of negating the ramped up damage is to basically be pushed into being a elite spec since they have tons of built in defenses:

Thieves have loads of evades now, timing isnt really necessary when its easily replenishable, ontop of that, given a low cd block.

Warriors, already had good passive defenses. Feel as though that even those they had got buffed.

Mesmers, already had enough defenses + invis. Now its basically doubled without needing to drop deceptive evasion in order to have a reliable source of illusion upkeep, chronomancer basically took over when it comes to that.

Druids, just heal through stuff. Smokescale does most their dmg for them so they can focus on staying alive more.

Reapers, function the same, just a lot more dmg.

Eles, got bunker nerfed just to receive a spec for bunkering? I dont even know.

Dragon hunters, the amount of blocks and invunerablities for this class is just ridiculous.

Scrapper, 2-3 of hammers skills are basically defensive. More then its shield actually.

Most of these have a lot of resources on damage negation with little downsides of taking them. It killed any aspect of having to build defensively by just incorporating the stuff into the class itself, toughness isnt needed when you can just negate most of the damage itself, allowing everyone to just simply be able to build for damage which kills build diversity.

In a way its sort of P2W because without having access to elite specs you cant really compete on the same level if you and another player were on equal skill level when using a class.

Elite specs would be completely fine if they had give and take. But in this case, it gives and doubles that.

Saiyan.1704:

ellesee.8297:

BnS is just simply the better game! I encourage people here to join some veteran Guild Warts 2 players like me, Ostrich Eggs, and many more and play some fun, competitive PvP

No offense to Ostrich but he stopped being competitive the moment The Abjured kicked him off the team.

Please tell me again about all of these Ex-GW2 competitive players being top 100 in this other mmorpg, a game where Rank PvP is filled with these so-called Destroyer Bots.

There haven’t been destroyer bots in arena for years! Your information is very outdated my frand, much like everyone else that tries to put down the game!

And we are not top 100! We arent even gold rated yet! That would be crazy and awesome if we were! Still learning the game my frand!

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

Ithilwen.1529:

This problem was created over multiple seasons.

The “competitive” matchmaking of s2-s3 was a big contributor. I find it amusing to see some of the same players who liked that system so well now complaining about being matched above there skill level.

I assume that it’s fun to crush games and exploit “noobs.” The problem is that sooner or later you run out of people willing to put up with it.

Now the rewards are too low to make it worthwhile for many players. They know they will be going into class stacked, uneven matches. That simply isn’t fun.

Et Voila, you get the situation we have now.

Sadly, I suspect that much of the development resources at ANET have been focused on raids and the new animated armor set.

Every single ESL or near ESL player disliked stackign once they got into legendary. It was ok getting us into the right division but after that we wanted it disabled.

Now let me get this straight… You liked stacking and exploits until you were in a position it didn’t help you anymore. Then, you wanted it removed so that it couldn’t be used by others.

That’s what I hear you saying. Am I wrong?

Forsty.7968:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And of course you know about that “high level” PvP first-hand …

You dont get away with spamming skills. Overall, HoT has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill cap which is very good. Unfortunately, for a lot of people this creates the illusion that the game requires no skill at high level as well because theyre unable to get close to the cap.

This is what you wrote,

My issue is what seprates skill pre hot and post hot and how are you defining it?

Glass P/P thieves could be in a game Pre HOT. It was a decent build at certain levels but ELITE LEVEL PLAYERS could easily counter it with skilled play.

What im saying is HOT makes it less unskilled play when HOT gives me a ELE Elite Spec that gives myself a reflect with a new weapon which we had with the focus and staff before. What makes it unskilled is i can give my team reflects with 1 shout and i can give myself another one with a earth over load and if i need overkill i have rebound for everyone as well.

This isnt increasing the skill cap. Your statement says a lower skill floor which is true but in no way does it shot a higher skill cap.

Also you point to the community whining about build diversity, guess what chaith a while back wrote a huge list of things to improve ENGY build diversity but none of it happened.

Are you better then Five Gauge?

Toker wrote the Illiad version of his disappointment with Anet ability to balance PvP since HOT came out.

Are you better then Magic Toker.

I myself am a nobody and i use to run some awkward non-meta builds all the time. I got to legendary every season i tried season 1-4. (they were seasons 1-3) I also was able to get to plat 2 with a rating above 1800 at one point and i finished S5 at over 1700. I did it running a rifle warrior build and ele with S/W.

To this day ive ran non meta builds and from my personal experience PRE HOT non meta builds were far more successful then POST HOT META BUILDS.

I want you do understand since im being clear about everything i say. Nothing about you being a pro means anything when you cant defend your stance on HOT skill level.

Your arguments are about attacking the forum whiners and addressing how build diversity cant be accomplished.

No one has asked for it to be perfect. But the fact meta builds are so much stronger shows the lack of a skill ceiling and when you say the skill floor is easier it contradicts what the majority are saying.

If it takes a 4-6 to play a average trap DH. But it the skill floor for a p/p thief 1 and the ceiling is a 4. This is terrible build diversity with a HOT build and core build.

But Pre HOT a pistol thief ceiling could be a 6-7 that means that build diversity to a extent was working.

Lastly you talked about the dps warrior and the condi warrior. Ive done this with olrun as well but these 2 builds are nearly identical.

Defense/ discipline / beserker with what rune of the krait- strength or beserker ammy and what carrion? With maybe dead or alive or cleanising ire are the differences?

Seriously 1-2 traits are different and amulet rune change, this makes them completely different? How about them using all the same utility skills?

Yeah thats way better then Pre HOT where dps warrior and shout bow used a different spec line, amulet, rune, weapons like greatsword and hammer and sword shield. As oppose to mace shield and greatsword and mace shield …………………….. and longbow.

Also they used 3 different utility skills and 2 different elite skills.

Biggest and most important they had different styles of play.

Styles of play is where you measure skill level on top of all the base things everyone already knows.

You have yet to debate/ argue your point with out throwing out that you play against/with Pros so there fore you know more. Please read your own statements and then explain on why the skill floor is lower and the ceiling is higher with actual comments and examples that make sense.

4 more days for my legendary and then i stop pvp
i cant stand this pace any more
time to become pro at fractals

A possible fix to the stale meta would be to re-introduce build diversity. But Anet is holding fast to the “players must use an elite spec with this exact grandmaster trait and amulet to play this profession” policy

Alex Shatter.7956:

A possible fix to the stale meta would be to re-introduce build diversity. But Anet is holding fast to the “players must use an elite spec with this exact grandmaster trait and amulet to play this profession” policy

lol…. @build diversity, they hardly know how to balance some classes and u want diversity…

Crinn.7864:

fishball.7204:

3) Same meta kitten, boring af no change at all – balance fail

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years…

You certainly don’t play elementalist… The class had all the life sucked out of it.

The removal of team queue and the terrible balance killed pvp.

They need another expansion to redeem themselves where the new content isn’t mandatory.

GvG………………………….. Monks………………………

I don’t think pvp is dead
to everyone who says that you can only play hot specs… no there are several non hot account’s within the top 250 sure hot is a power increase in most cases.. but that doesn’t mean you can’t make it

build diversity is not really a problem either just look at past esl broadcasts u see 8 teams of 5 players each and a total of 7 maybe 8 different builds

at least today you can play any class semi viable if u want… Gl in the past
surely anet can and should further improve balance … but it is kitten good in comparison to what balance was over the majority of the games lifespan..
hambow.. nothing else..just an example..
who said pp thief isn’t viable.. well it’s certainly not good neither are minion masters… I have seen both this season anyway
and inexperienced players with hot still die to them …
this season I felt only twice that I had absolutely no chance and that was vs thief mesmer placed 1 and 2 the way they snowballed and pressured was just a former of art all other fights I never felt they were unwinnable (now speaking 1 on 1) Dhabi so op .. just don’t step on where u can clearly see he has dropped is reaps kitten ..

I hope I got my point across
I pretty much just +1 forsty and his way of thinking