Guild Wars 2

pressing the pet command button could be like a weapon swap, so the actual command to do something could be “6 + 2 + click”. after a single command is issued it could swap the bar back to the previous weapon.

If we were to receive this change, it is very likely we will have reduced damage on our pet as being able to maul three times (4 stack of bleed each maul) with 2 feline is just downright overpowered. You can keep bringing up gw1 as a template, but the dev already stated numerous time they weren’t trying to create a gw1 remake and the notion of ‘because gw1 did this so we should’ is tedious as it is.

Diage.6451:

If you have no expertise to make a conclusion.. you then have no right to even attempt to discuss that platform.. however, you didn’t just discuss it, you declared it the probable answer.

I AM a programmer.. It depends entirely on how they implemented their abstract for skills. If they’re half intelligent, it would be a pretty easy fix. All a skill should do is “Activate” and the events, despite whatever they may be, will follow from that command. All it would need is for activating the button to call the class that handles the animal AI and tell it to chomp.

This is of course assuming they are even the slightest tiniest bit intelligent.

I did say in advance – the first sentence in fact – and apologized before I even offered my take, so I really don’t understand what you’re getting so self righteous about.. Just because I said it was a probable answer, doesn’t mean I actually think I am right. (Otherwise I wouldn’t use the word probable right?)

It was an attempted guess, and I consider myself educated having worked with programmers in the past. I told everyone it was an attempted guess right from the start, and since none of us actually work for Anet, no one can say for sure how they’ve actually done their programmings.

Which company do you work for, if you don’t mind me asking? If you are such a good programmer that you would go as far as to doubt the capability of Anet’s programmers, who are industry veterans, I really want to know what company you work for and which games you’ve worked on.

Having reduced effect on pet’s skill doesn’t matter if you can actually raise the skill cap of a profession which is now too simplistic and lacking of depth.

Most pets only really have 1 other ability that we want access to. These are things like stuns, roots, heals…crowd control & support abilities which require timing to gain the most out of. The pets can keep their short CD straight DPS abilities on AI.

eg. Dogs, we really just want the KD. Spider, we want the Root. Devourer, the KB. Moa, the Heal. Drake, the Blast. etc.

in lieu of that, combine F1 & F3 into a toggle on F1 & shift 1 ability per pet to F3.

F1: Attack/Return to Me
F2: Ability A
F3: Ability B
F4: Petswap

Even 1 more ability at our disposal would make a world of difference.

faeral.7120:

Most pets only really have 1 other ability that we want access to. These are things like stuns, roots, heals…crowd control & support abilities which require timing to gain the most out of. The pets can keep their short CD straight DPS abilities on AI.

eg. Dogs, we really just want the KD. Spider, we want the Root. Devourer, the KB. Moa, the Heal. Drake, the Blast. etc.

in lieu of that, combine F1 & F3 into a toggle on F1 & shift 1 ability per pet to F3.

F1: Attack/Return to Me
F2: Ability A
F3: Ability B
F4: Petswap

Even 1 more ability at our disposal would make a world of difference.

Which wouldn’t be a good thing necessarily. Don’t get me wrong, I want this change, but if this change come at the cost of other changes (which is pretty likely since almost every tweak in the past they’ll be some downside, so I rather not risk getting something worst) then I rather Rangers stay where they are.

showatt.9413:

If we were to receive this change, it is very likely we will have reduced damage on our pet as being able to maul three times (4 stack of bleed each maul) with 2 feline is just downright overpowered. You can keep bringing up gw1 as a template, but the dev already stated numerous time they weren’t trying to create a gw1 remake and the notion of ‘because gw1 did this so we should’ is tedious as it is.

The thing about that is, I can already do that. I can even make their auto attacks bleed on crit keeping up 18 stacks consistently.

All I’m asking for (and I’m guessing the rest of the guys here are asking for the same thing) is that they should make it less automated.

Dirame.8521:

showatt.9413:

If we were to receive this change, it is very likely we will have reduced damage on our pet as being able to maul three times (4 stack of bleed each maul) with 2 feline is just downright overpowered. You can keep bringing up gw1 as a template, but the dev already stated numerous time they weren’t trying to create a gw1 remake and the notion of ‘because gw1 did this so we should’ is tedious as it is.

The thing about that is, I can already do that. I can even make their auto attacks bleed on crit keeping up 18 stacks consistently.

All I’m asking for (and I’m guessing the rest of the guys here are asking for the same thing) is that they should make it less automated.

Yes indeed we can all do that but the problem is if – let’s say the dev actually have the time and resource/manpower to make the change – what do we sacrifice in return? Nothing? Because I’m pretty sure they’ll do something to try and ‘balance’ the changes. I have faith in anet dev, but I don’t have faith in their generosity.

I’d rather not risking losing anything more for something that I can already do on my own.

showatt.9413:

If we were to receive this change, it is very likely we will have reduced damage on our pet as being able to maul three times (4 stack of bleed each maul) with 2 feline is just downright overpowered. You can keep bringing up gw1 as a template, but the dev already stated numerous time they weren’t trying to create a gw1 remake and the notion of ‘because gw1 did this so we should’ is tedious as it is.

Why would control of pet skills even require a nerf at all? Rangers do not have burst. We only have select builds that have some burst potential and even those are niche builds. Control over CC is already there but clunky, and the abilities in question are on long cooldowns. 40 seconds for a 6500 heal isnt a game breaker for anyone, and even with that wouldnt even put it as beneficial as simply pulling a signet into a utlility slot.

None of these bonuses would change the ranger. The number one problem we have always had is quite simple. Our class mechanic. The pet simply does not work. If i have to put 30 points into a trait line run one signet and use it every time I want to time an AOE fear in a group of people without a wolfy dirtnap (save going full boring BM bunker build which is about as fun as a free rectal exam) Id simply rather play another class with better access to CC.

Jonathan Sharp once said on SotG that they thought about it, but they won’t add it because they want to keep it casual and it would be too much for newer players. but it would be cool if you could choose at least the active skill you want out of those 4.

The balance argument is moot here , this is a gameplay issue . In any competitive game , a player MUST have complete control over his entire ability arsenal, and as long as rangers are forced to use pets , they MUST be able to fully control them .

Otherwise , it is just fail design and keeping it this way completely goes against the supposed competitive E-sport goal that the company has stated for GW2 PvP

Pet control isn’t working well as it is. So your probably not going to get much support from rangers….however if you said make auto attack much less powerful and special attacks much better. I would agree that would be a step in the right direction.

The devs just ignore the simple autocast functionality implemented since day one.
Simply put all pet abilites on “autocast” by default so new players dont have to take care of that.
For those who do want to controll it, deactivating autocast solves the problem.

Saying “new players cant handle this” is just a very bad excuse or not thought through completely.
By adding this option there IS NOTHING MORE TO HANDLE FOR NEW PLAYERS.

But as Ranger is competely broken right now anyways, why even discuss this..
(Power builds suck kittenly spirit is viable but boring, BM builds are impossible due to pet controll and pet AI)

quoting my post from end of p1, relevant to discussing Jon’s comments on why they won’t make this change in SotG:

faeral.7120:

now, Jon speaks of PvE Elementalists who do not swap attunements as a rebuttal to why this change would not be practical for lower skilled play. but what is happening by using this justification, is that the skill ceiling, or skill potential, is being restricted due to players who only operate at the skill floor.

to continue with the Ele example:

sure, a PvE Elementalist might just want to sit in Fire. but this doesn’t stop a PvP Elementalist from utilizing all his attunements to the best of his ability ( without impacting the enjoyment of the player who just stays in fire ).

A PvP Ranger does not have this luxury.

this change would also beneficially affect build diversity ( useless pets would all of a sudden have niche specs. eg. Moa in a support build ).

we all know the ranger story.

Buff -> OP -> Nerf to something that is weaker before buff

But yeah i agree that all the Pet Skills should be available to players. Say a separate minibar that can be hotkeyed above the utility bar. coz it appears that Pet AI uses the other skills just after cooldown.

Darnis.4056:

jcbroe.4329:

Mammoth.1975:

One problem is that it would be much too easy to chain CC. You can do it now, but you have to know how to get your puppy into position to leap. Make it a button press and GG everyone can do it.

Because warriors, necros, and guardians have such a hard time chaining any CC they have….

Those classes can’t do it while CC’d themselves though; but ranger has a pet that can CC WHILE cc’d, the only exception being necro elite pet; which if you take out your elite to do AND your pet cc goes on a 45 second cooldown I’d be okay with.

Mesmer can do it with diversion, one of the main mesmer defenses against CC. Warriors have access to lots of stability to avoid being CC’d in the first place. Then there is also stuff like elementalist daze aura.

press f2 button like always and get the
pet skills on weapon skillbar

press f2 again to get weapon skills back.

its same like engi or ele then.
easy to play for each pve noob too.

and at least give a option to enable/disable pet self skill use
if u dont whant do them by urself.

for sure for self pet skill use the skills have to come instant when i press the button.

I won’t go as far as the OP, but there is no question in my mind that the premise of it being too much micromanagement for a player to handle, giving them 2 additional keys/commands to worry about, is laughable. It is as laughable as when someone from ANet responded to the reports of the Temple map coming up more often than the others by flippantly saying “Sounds like it’s… random.”, and then after more people posted, saying “Alright, after more people posted that they were having this same issue, I checked in with the team and they let me know that there is a bug causing Temple to pop more than other maps.”

In other words, we are the people playing this game. We are the ones who are non-devs, who have the experience of players, the knowledge level of players and the capabilities of players…if we are saying something is necessary, if we are saying something is manageable, then to without any basis in fact refute that is not only wrong but offensive. Some people do not know what they are talking about, and sometimes these people can work for ANet. They are people too, and have the same failings we all do. No-one is perfect, omniscient or infallible.

BUT, this is not a position from which to make either vague comments or definitive statements. The idea that adding 2 additional commands would overwhelm enough people to outweigh the benefit is impossible to accept as anything but disingenuous. Especially when you consider this could be optional. We need to dispense with this fallacy once and for all.

Next absurdity is that this change is not necessary. There is a statement by the same dev who put forth this reason against making the change, saying that invisible internal cooldowns are a negative thing – I am paraphrasing, but if needed I can and will listen to the casts and find the video in question so people can hear it for themselves. Invisible cooldowns are one of the very reasons why having direct control over these 2 additional pet abilities is necessary, because without it, having appropriate use of the 1 pet skill we are supposed to have direct control over control over is quite simply impossible. Any ranger will tell you that sometimes when they press F2 to execute their pet skill, that it fails due to this ICD. This is not disputable.

This class is full of skills which are conditional, where getting full value is not assured – even though the classes are balanced against one another on the assumption that this is not the case.

For example, in addition to the one mentioned above, you have powers like the Axe 1 skill, the auto-attack Ricochet. This skill will cause the throw axe to hit a total of 3 targets by bouncing between them. It will hit a 1st, and if a 2nd is in range, bounce to that, and if a 3rd is in range, bounce to that, doing it’s damage amount 3 times. If there are only 2 targets, it nicely will bounce back to the 1st target after hitting the second, so you still get the intended 3 hits of the listed damage.

However, if there is only 1 target…you get only 1 hit. No additional damage in compensation, no additional effects…you simply do not get full value.

The same is true for the many or skills or traits which are balanced for the status or location of the pet – that is, whether it is alive or not, or in range. This is something which is not always assured, and depends on a level of control over the pet which we neither have nor can be reasonably expected to micromanage. In those circumstances where the pet does not meet the needed requirements, we do not get full value.

It is not only that we cannot control the pet’s 2nd and 3rd skill, but that we cannot use the 1st, the F2 skill, with a 100% success rate, BECAUSE we don’t control the other powers, their ICDs and thus when the F2 power is even valid to be used. Not only that, but we cannot SEE when this cooldown is making the F2 power impossible to use, because the cooldown or skill timers are invisible. There is no way anyone could say this is not punitive with a straight face. Not without being called a liar.

This issue is an excellent example of the fallibility of human beings and the fallacies they will both allow themselves to believe and then attempt to make others believe as well. This is not a question of programming or limitations of game mechanics…anyone who knows anything about either can say that with high confidence…but rather similar to the meaningless and insulting “Sounds like it’s… random.” statement, it is an opinion expressed with no bearing in reason or fact whatsoever.

2 + 2 = 4, no matter how much someone tries to tell you the contrary….every ranger knows what this mechanic means to their gameplay, how much it hurts them, and no amount of hand-waving is going to convince any of them otherwise.

Anthrage.2519:

snip

You don’t give any evidence to support your claim to speak for “every ranger”. So a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black here.

1, The devs will have 100 times the data on what players prefer than your meaningless, unscientific and individual experiences.

2, They must know that some people hate keyboard and button management, I know I HATE it and that is why I would never touch ranger again if they added these skills.

3, You say the game is balanced on this presumption, but in fact the game is just balanced according to how the game plays. Theory is irrelevant, all that matters is practice and testing.

4, It is their design philopshy to not make this game a cooldown watching, key bind orientated game. So get over it.

5, You say that 2 key binds isn’t a big deal. But it is FACTUALLY 2 more key binds than would otherwise be on the ranger. So it is more key binds.

State what you think. That is fine and valid and what the forums are for. When you pretend to represent everyone, or even a majority, then you fail big time. Your whole post is pointless as far as I am concerned because you lost all credibility when you tried to do this.

I agree with the development team. Some people actually enjoy the simpler professions.

Jasher.6580:

I agree with the development team. Some people actually enjoy the simpler professions.

And some people quit those professions because there is no fun in just spamming 1 skill

That’s the thing though… by simply giving players control of the ability and leaving it set to autocast would not change anything with how things work right now. Only when a player turned the auto cast off and they started to manage it themselves would things actually be different.

It is nothing to script pet recall on the attack button. Even without the change I’d much rather they add this functionality anyway simply because it makes controlling the pet much more streamlined and actually removes one of the keybinds we need to manage.

I also don’t buy into the other people’s argument that allowing players to control the secondary skills would be overpowered and would end up needing a nerf to pet damage in anyway. First of all, if pet damage were to be nerfed, they need to adjust Ranger weapon coefficients. A damage trade off for utility isn’t a reasonable option.

More importantly though, allowing players to control the secondary skill doesn’t really increase the amount of utility the Ranger already has. If you swap to a pet the first attack used, unless on cooldown, is always the special attack. The way players control these abilities now is to either leave the pet on passive until they need the control, or swap to the pet and allow it to use the ability if already engaged. The only added benefit this change would do is if the player was still in combat 45 seconds later and needed to use the skill a second time.

Seisyll.5914:

Jasher.6580:

I agree with the development team. Some people actually enjoy the simpler professions.

And some people quit those professions because there is no fun in just spamming 1 skill

How would more ranger skills solve this? Maybe they shud nerf the auto attack

Lordrosicky.5813:

Seisyll.5914:

Jasher.6580:

I agree with the development team. Some people actually enjoy the simpler professions.

And some people quit those professions because there is no fun in just spamming 1 skill

How would more ranger skills solve this? Maybe they shud nerf the auto attack

You don’t have to worry. It was nerfed enough.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Anthrage.2519:

snip

You don’t give any evidence to support your claim to speak for “every ranger”. So a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black here.

1, The devs will have 100 times the data on what players prefer than your meaningless, unscientific and individual experiences.

2, They must know that some people hate keyboard and button management, I know I HATE it and that is why I would never touch ranger again if they added these skills.

3, You say the game is balanced on this presumption, but in fact the game is just balanced according to how the game plays. Theory is irrelevant, all that matters is practice and testing.

4, It is their design philopshy to not make this game a cooldown watching, key bind orientated game. So get over it.

5, You say that 2 key binds isn’t a big deal. But it is FACTUALLY 2 more key binds than would otherwise be on the ranger. So it is more key binds.

State what you think. That is fine and valid and what the forums are for. When you pretend to represent everyone, or even a majority, then you fail big time. Your whole post is pointless as far as I am concerned because you lost all credibility when you tried to do this.

Here’s the problem, IT IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE TO ACCURATELY BALANCE A CLASS THAT IS COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON AI THAT HAS TO BE USED ALL THE TIME! Any complaints about the pets spamming certain things by another player are completely based on how the AI reacts, which for the ranger is sheer dumb luck.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Seisyll.5914:

Jasher.6580:

I agree with the development team. Some people actually enjoy the simpler professions.

And some people quit those professions because there is no fun in just spamming 1 skill

How would more ranger skills solve this? Maybe they shud nerf the auto attack

How much more could they nerf the auto attack lol.

If anything they need to buff all the other skills so rangers had more to do than just auto attack.

Anthrage.2519:

I won’t go as far as the OP, but there is no question in my mind that the premise of it being too much micromanagement for a player to handle, giving them 2 additional keys/commands to worry about, is laughable. It is as laughable as when someone from ANet responded to the reports of the Temple map coming up more often than the others by flippantly saying “Sounds like it’s… random.”, and then after more people posted, saying “Alright, after more people posted that they were having this same issue, I checked in with the team and they let me know that there is a bug causing Temple to pop more than other maps.”

In other words, we are the people playing this game. We are the ones who are non-devs, who have the experience of players, the knowledge level of players and the capabilities of players…if we are saying something is necessary, if we are saying something is manageable, then to without any basis in fact refute that is not only wrong but offensive. Some people do not know what they are talking about, and sometimes these people can work for ANet. They are people too, and have the same failings we all do. No-one is perfect, omniscient or infallible.

BUT, this is not a position from which to make either vague comments or definitive statements. The idea that adding 2 additional commands would overwhelm enough people to outweigh the benefit is impossible to accept as anything but disingenuous. Especially when you consider this could be optional. We need to dispense with this fallacy once and for all.

Next absurdity is that this change is not necessary. There is a statement by the same dev who put forth this reason against making the change, saying that invisible internal cooldowns are a negative thing – I am paraphrasing, but if needed I can and will listen to the casts and find the video in question so people can hear it for themselves. Invisible cooldowns are one of the very reasons why having direct control over these 2 additional pet abilities is necessary, because without it, having appropriate use of the 1 pet skill we are supposed to have direct control over control over is quite simply impossible. Any ranger will tell you that sometimes when they press F2 to execute their pet skill, that it fails due to this ICD. This is not disputable.

This class is full of skills which are conditional, where getting full value is not assured – even though the classes are balanced against one another on the assumption that this is not the case.

For example, in addition to the one mentioned above, you have powers like the Axe 1 skill, the auto-attack Ricochet. This skill will cause the throw axe to hit a total of 3 targets by bouncing between them. It will hit a 1st, and if a 2nd is in range, bounce to that, and if a 3rd is in range, bounce to that, doing it’s damage amount 3 times. If there are only 2 targets, it nicely will bounce back to the 1st target after hitting the second, so you still get the intended 3 hits of the listed damage.

However, if there is only 1 target…you get only 1 hit. No additional damage in compensation, no additional effects…you simply do not get full value.

The same is true for the many or skills or traits which are balanced for the status or location of the pet – that is, whether it is alive or not, or in range. This is something which is not always assured, and depends on a level of control over the pet which we neither have nor can be reasonably expected to micromanage. In those circumstances where the pet does not meet the needed requirements, we do not get full value.

It is not only that we cannot control the pet’s 2nd and 3rd skill, but that we cannot use the 1st, the F2 skill, with a 100% success rate, BECAUSE we don’t control the other powers, their ICDs and thus when the F2 power is even valid to be used. Not only that, but we cannot SEE when this cooldown is making the F2 power impossible to use, because the cooldown or skill timers are invisible. There is no way anyone could say this is not punitive with a straight face. Not without being called a liar.

This issue is an excellent example of the fallibility of human beings and the fallacies they will both allow themselves to believe and then attempt to make others believe as well. This is not a question of programming or limitations of game mechanics…anyone who knows anything about either can say that with high confidence…but rather similar to the meaningless and insulting “Sounds like it’s… random.” statement, it is an opinion expressed with no bearing in reason or fact whatsoever.

2 + 2 = 4, no matter how much someone tries to tell you the contrary….every ranger knows what this mechanic means to their gameplay, how much it hurts them, and no amount of hand-waving is going to convince any of them otherwise.

You deserve an award. Couldnt say it any better.

showatt.9413:

If we were to receive this change, it is very likely we will have reduced damage on our pet as being able to maul three times (4 stack of bleed each maul) with 2 feline is just downright overpowered. You can keep bringing up gw1 as a template, but the dev already stated numerous time they weren’t trying to create a gw1 remake and the notion of ‘because gw1 did this so we should’ is tedious as it is.

Diage.6451:

If you have no expertise to make a conclusion.. you then have no right to even attempt to discuss that platform.. however, you didn’t just discuss it, you declared it the probable answer.

I AM a programmer.. It depends entirely on how they implemented their abstract for skills. If they’re half intelligent, it would be a pretty easy fix. All a skill should do is “Activate” and the events, despite whatever they may be, will follow from that command. All it would need is for activating the button to call the class that handles the animal AI and tell it to chomp.

This is of course assuming they are even the slightest tiniest bit intelligent.

I did say in advance – the first sentence in fact – and apologized before I even offered my take, so I really don’t understand what you’re getting so self righteous about.. Just because I said it was a probable answer, doesn’t mean I actually think I am right. (Otherwise I wouldn’t use the word probable right?)

It was an attempted guess, and I consider myself educated having worked with programmers in the past. I told everyone it was an attempted guess right from the start, and since none of us actually work for Anet, no one can say for sure how they’ve actually done their programmings.

Which company do you work for, if you don’t mind me asking? If you are such a good programmer that you would go as far as to doubt the capability of Anet’s programmers, who are industry veterans, I really want to know what company you work for and which games you’ve worked on.

When it comes to games, I am freelance, I do it for fun. However, I am the LSA for Ohio and Michigan within the Kroger Company. Actual title is KTM Operations Analyst Data Security. I have a bachelors degree in mathematics, bachelor in computer science and engineering and an associates in philosophy.

And btw, stating something is probable means you do in fact believe it to a high degree of certainty. It does not imply you believe it 100%, but obviously (as per the definition) you believe it to be probably true.

And btw, I didn’t doubt their ability. I said that they should have done some things given the assumption they are even the tiniest bit intelligent. This is, as stated, a very small assumption to make therefore you can come to my conclusion above.

Real post:

@Anthrage.

To be fair, their target audience is casuals (which btw is a HORRIBLE audience if you want to make a competitive game, sorry casual players, but it’s true) and adding more active control is harder to master. Certainly, as you have reached the upper skill cap, it is easier to add more complexities onto that because you’re already at the top and learning the extra new stuff is not too hard. However, there is this concept of complexity creep whereby the devs will continually make the game slightly more challenging for their long term players because those long term players can in fact handle it. The problem with this is that it adds onto what all a new player has to learn. Just remember, they come in knowing nothing. So, like I said, tbf to Anet, I would agree that complexity is a concern.

HOWEVER. I think Anet has targeted the wrong audience completely for this game. Casual appeal can be great for some aspects of the game, they certainly tried to hit it hard for the pve and I think that’s great. However, there can’t be and shouldn’t be such a thing as “casual pvp.” Certainly, casuals should be able to play it occasionally, but if you want your game mode to be great you need to have a skill cap that can’t be achieved after a week and a half of playing.

IMO that is the problem with this game. It is the reason myself and all my friends ever stopped playing it. A monkey can achieve near perfect play after an incredibly short time playing it. There is no extra skill cap to the game mode. No skill cap to team play. No skill cap to individual play. It is exactly how they envisioned it, casual friendly.

And to that point, since that is their audience they should definitely not do this.

However, if they ever get serious about making this game a GOOD COMPETITIVE game, they need to give more active control and less passive.

I’d love more pet control, But Anet seems to think that if you give players to many buttons to push they somehow will be in trouble, even though most suggestions actually just use the same number of buttons that we currently use.

A lot of the problem with Rangers and the “appearing” to spam just 1 button (even though there are plenty of classes that do this) is the fact the damage on most of our abilities is actually less then auto attack or equal.

Take Shortbow, Up until recently it was a bloody DPS loss to use anything other then auto attack in that line, They finally increased the damage of those abilities to be equal to Auto Attack. But still, we’re left with an Evade that we don’t wanna just spam, and a Stun that we don’t wanna just spam.

That leaves 2 attacks in that line that could potentially be used for higher damage, the Poison which is only used because its a poison and the Cripple/Bleed attack which is god awful cause it uses the pets condition damage…its really only there for a cripple, So we’re basically forced into spamming the 1 key.

What about Sword? Again, We got a leap back and an evade….that both do pitiful damage while the Auto Attack is the best damage in the game.

Dagger, Another pitiful evade low damage attack and a Bleed (that is actually good)

Longbow, Most of these attacks either do less or the same damage as longbows auto attack, the only exception is Barrage…

torch is good

Axe offhand blows (mainly for the number 5)

Axe Main Hand, again if you’re power based, you’re spamming the 1 key because 2 and 2 are both less damage (3 being used for the weakness and chill) and 2 being only good if you’re using a Condition Build.

The only weapon in the game for Rangers that isn’t high damage attacks and actually requires using other abilities is Greatsword…That is it.

We start getting into silly crap like the our an actual ability lines, and they’re about the same as weapons.

They’re either Passive Bullcrap that we can’t use (Signets because for some reason Anet thinks we should have to invest 30 freakin points in a line to get the same benefit as everyone else with signets) Or its crap that requires specific builds with huge investments in a Trait line..and usually its Condition Based.

Xsorus covered literally everything. Broken trait lines incoherent damage bonuses (great sword trait damage in vitality? Huh?) And class mechanics that make my favorite class an uphill battle at all times. Just remove the pet completely and increase damage by 20% or give us some measure of control over what equates to 20-25% of our total damage.

Xsorus.2507:

Take Shortbow, Up until recently it was a bloody DPS loss to use anything other then auto attack in that line, They finally increased the damage of those abilities to be equal to Auto Attack. But still, we’re left with an Evade that we don’t wanna just spam, and a Stun that we don’t wanna just spam.

That leaves 2 attacks in that line that could potentially be used for higher damage, the Poison which is only used because its a poison and the Cripple/Bleed attack which is god awful cause it uses the pets condition damage…its really only there for a cripple, So we’re basically forced into spamming the 1 key.

SB should have AA dmg reduced, since the bleed proc should be the main draw & positional requirement would make head-on AA dmg very low. Then I would change SB4 to have the pet proc Blind on next attack & SB2 upped to 3s poison per arrow.

What about Sword? Again, We got a leap back and an evade….that both do pitiful damage while the Auto Attack is the best damage in the game.

Monarch’s Leap ( S2-2 ) does great damage. Much higher than Pounce ( S1-3 ). Also to be fair I think Sword auto has the most depth of play of any of our available autoattacks.

Dagger, Another pitiful evade low damage attack and a Bleed (that is actually good)

Defensive condi offhand, got no problem with Dagger. Evade, Poison, Bleed & Cripple.

Longbow, Most of these attacks either do less or the same damage as longbows auto attack, the only exception is Barrage…

Yea, I can never get down with LB when I work with it, mostly b/c I dislike channeling attacks & this weapon has 2 of them. Barrage is great though & Stealth increases depth of play. KB is always nice. On paper, I like LB. I would probably like it more if they shortened the channel on LB2, possibly keeping the dmg the same. The long channel trolls stealth nicely though.

torch is good

lolburning

Axe offhand blows (mainly for the number 5)

yep, adding Retal actually helped Ax5 a bit, but not enough. I would rather have Aegis, so I could use the skill conditionally to block. ( it would be nice to not be locked in 1 place, but I feel that ANet wants to avoid mirroring the Thief equivalent by letting us move )

Ax4 is in a great place atm though. Powerful dmg/effect with counterplay.

Axe Main Hand, again if you’re power based, you’re spamming the 1 key because 2 and 2 are both less damage (3 being used for the weakness and chill) and 2 being only good if you’re using a Condition Build.

Ax2 makes me angry, lol. Ax1, full power. Ax3 gives the 2 best power-spec conditions ( chill / weakness ). Ax2, bleeds? K thx.

The only weapon in the game for Rangers that isn’t high damage attacks and actually requires using other abilities is Greatsword…That is it.

GS is my favourite weapon atm. Great spread of dmg & effects across all abilities.

We start getting into silly crap like the our an actual ability lines, and they’re about the same as weapons.

They’re either Passive Bullcrap that we can’t use (Signets because for some reason Anet thinks we should have to invest 30 freakin points in a line to get the same benefit as everyone else with signets) Or its crap that requires specific builds with huge investments in a Trait line..and usually its Condition Based.

yea the signet thing is BS. Wilderness traitline is just a better PvP line than any other we have, which shuffles players logically into condi builds. every major build since release has revolved around Wilderness first. ppl talk the most about Empathic Bond, but it’s the traitline as a whole. 5 is crazy good, 15 is like a dodge extension, 25 is good considering ranger’s ability to regen & reset a fight. 10, 20, 30 all have rock solid choices ( & you have CHOICE, unlike other traitlines ).

Oidmetala.8426:

press f2 button like always and get the
pet skills on weapon skillbar

press f2 again to get weapon skills back.

its same like engi or ele then.
easy to play for each pve noob too.

and at least give a option to enable/disable pet self skill use
if u dont whant do them by urself.

for sure for self pet skill use the skills have to come instant when i press the button.

I like this idea. Press F2 to get your pet’s skills on your bar and then click the skill you want to activate then Switch back to weapons by either clicking weapon swap or F2 again. Me likey.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Anthrage.2519:

snip

You don’t give any evidence to support your claim to speak for “every ranger”. So a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black here.

1, The devs will have 100 times the data on what players prefer than your meaningless, unscientific and individual experiences.

2, They must know that some people hate keyboard and button management, I know I HATE it and that is why I would never touch ranger again if they added these skills.

Did you not read his full post? He clearly states that the things he suggests (we suggest) can be made optional.

Move “Search and Rescue” and “Guard” (without stealth) on the pet skill bar, as permanent pet skills. This will make the pet useful when it’s on passive, and give more pet control to the Ranger. Any new player doesn’t need to use these skills, but they can make a difference at a higher skill level.

Kasama.8941:

Move “Search and Rescue” and “Guard” (without stealth) on the pet skill bar, as permanent pet skills. This will make the pet useful when it’s on passive, and give more pet control to the Ranger. Any new player doesn’t need to use these skills, but they can make a difference at a higher skill level.

Thats not broken or anything.

No, not at all.

Kasama.8941:

Move “Search and Rescue” and “Guard” (without stealth) on the pet skill bar, as permanent pet skills. This will make the pet useful when it’s on passive, and give more pet control to the Ranger. Any new player doesn’t need to use these skills, but they can make a difference at a higher skill level.

No, what they need to do is either give us access to a second pet skill to use on command, or redo how the entire pet is done.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Kasama.8941:

Move “Search and Rescue” and “Guard” (without stealth) on the pet skill bar, as permanent pet skills. This will make the pet useful when it’s on passive, and give more pet control to the Ranger. Any new player doesn’t need to use these skills, but they can make a difference at a higher skill level.

No, what they need to do is either give us access to a second pet skill to use on command, or redo how the entire pet is done.

And yet they are gonna do nothing from those 2..

They should let us tame svanir and chieftain.

Xsorus.2507:

I’d love more pet control, But Anet seems to think that if you give players to many buttons to push they somehow will be in trouble, even though most suggestions actually just use the same number of buttons that we currently use.

A lot of the problem with Rangers and the “appearing” to spam just 1 button (even though there are plenty of classes that do this) is the fact the damage on most of our abilities is actually less then auto attack or equal.

Take Shortbow, Up until recently it was a bloody DPS loss to use anything other then auto attack in that line, They finally increased the damage of those abilities to be equal to Auto Attack. But still, we’re left with an Evade that we don’t wanna just spam, and a Stun that we don’t wanna just spam.

The original intent of the first skill was to be your main source of damage WHILE the other skills were to be used less frequently but critically. There is no reason to use concussion shot for example, as a damage skill, or quick shot. Theoretically, they were meant to be skills you only used as at critical time.

That is how the game WAS designed, unfortunately given how fast and pace the game has become or deviated, it is better just to use your skills as soon as they leave CD.

Personally, I think Arenanet should return to that original premise instead of the spammy spammy spammy 1-5, we currently have.

I love how everyone is like give us a F3 skill to press when we can hardly control F2. Before ANet can allows us to use an additional pet skill, they need to fix the functionally of F2 first. Most of our pets have AoE abilities as F2 skills, yet why aren’t they ground targeted rather than player targeted? I rather have more control of my current F2 skills before having a second skill.
F2 is so broken ATM and you guys really want a broken F3 ability before they figure out a way to fix F2?

F2 responsiveness needs to be fixed

Pets with AoE skills F2s: Canines. Moas, Drakes (only 2 have AoE) and some other pets with AoE skills, all of their F2’s should be ground targeted

What I don’t understand is why the utility skill "Guard’ is not on the F-function? Why does the Ranger have to spend 1 utility slot to have semi control of their pet (12-15 second)? And 30 points into Nature’s Voice to have regen and swiftness!

I am all for the use of a 2 pet skill but I think Anet’s priority should be to fix the current issues with pet pathing (pets need a condition removal, sprinting or stability mechanic), F2 responsiveness and F2 control with AoE ground targeting before we get an additional pet skill or we are just going to have 2 broken F-functions.

That’s just their way of saying ‘We don’t have the resources to do anything about it’

1, The devs will have 100 times the data on what players prefer than your meaningless, unscientific and individual experiences.

How would you know that they use it though? You are just making assumptions about some magical “data” that they are using. Talking about scientific analysis…

2, They must know that some people hate keyboard and button management, I know I HATE it and that is why I would never touch ranger again if they added these skills.

Well well, what do we have here? An invidual experience. Look at your own point 1.

3, You say the game is balanced on this presumption, but in fact the game is just balanced according to how the game plays. Theory is irrelevant, all that matters is practice and testing.

Tell that to the devs who introducted the current spamfest meta.

4, It is their design philopshy to not make this game a cooldown watching, key bind orientated game. So get over it.

Reference? And also, if you don’t watch cooldowns and there is no energy then what do you do? Just spam and rock the keyboard? Ah dammit, think you got this one right.

5, You say that 2 key binds isn’t a big deal. But it is FACTUALLY 2 more key binds than would otherwise be on the ranger. So it is more key binds.

Don’t worry, you don’t have to change your ranger playing style: when you turn the keyboard upside down and jump on it, these 2 new keys get pressed as well!

silvermember.8941:

Xsorus.2507:

I’d love more pet control, But Anet seems to think that if you give players to many buttons to push they somehow will be in trouble, even though most suggestions actually just use the same number of buttons that we currently use.

A lot of the problem with Rangers and the “appearing” to spam just 1 button (even though there are plenty of classes that do this) is the fact the damage on most of our abilities is actually less then auto attack or equal.

Take Shortbow, Up until recently it was a bloody DPS loss to use anything other then auto attack in that line, They finally increased the damage of those abilities to be equal to Auto Attack. But still, we’re left with an Evade that we don’t wanna just spam, and a Stun that we don’t wanna just spam.

The original intent of the first skill was to be your main source of damage WHILE the other skills were to be used less frequently but critically. There is no reason to use concussion shot for example, as a damage skill, or quick shot. Theoretically, they were meant to be skills you only used as at critical time.

That is how the game WAS designed, unfortunately given how fast and pace the game has become or deviated, it is better just to use your skills as soon as they leave CD.

Personally, I think Arenanet should return to that original premise instead of the spammy spammy spammy 1-5, we currently have.

The only abilities I don’t spam on release is Concussion Shot as i’m trying to interrupt usually.

Even the evade though you kind of just spam, because you’re going to evade something..

If you want to see a build that people call spamming but actually just follows a Rotation like kitten near every other class in the game is Sword/Dagger and Axe/Torch BM Bunker.

There is no difference between it and an D/D ele…They both follow a rotation.

You very rarely use auto attack with BM Bunker with that setup.

Warriors are the same way with Greatsword, Most of the time its following a rotation and not using Auto attack that often.

Shortbow is the only weapon I know for sure besides maybe P/D thief that doesn’t follow this…

Its just spam spam spam.

Pets need less impact on the game not more.

Kwll.1468:

Pets need less impact on the game not more.

The Ranger is a pet class. The impact the pet has should be player controlled and meaningful.

When all is said and done, the Ranger’s pet is nothing more than a DOT. Except where normal dots actually work when cast but have the penality of being dispelled, pets can’t hit moving targets, they can’t land their secondary abilities but once in a blue moon, they don’t scale with gear in any fashion, and they don’t work in PvE content (including WvW) at all.

There’s nothing wrong with pets. The problem is how passive they are and how little input is needed from the player to use them.

IMHO: “New Players can’t handle more pet controll” is wrong in several points (to sum it up)

• You can implement the often suggested autocast solution (only more controll if you want more controll, otherwise autocast by pet AI)
• Ele and Engi have a lot more skills to use, following the Devs argumentation those skills would have to be removed from the game entirely to make the class accessable for new and casual players
• “Ele already stays in 1 attunement” – that only applies for PvE, in PvP eles are capable of using all of their skills and utilizing the given mechanics. If you have different “data” → see point above. Although I agree, that Ele is harder to play due to much more skills, this is not comparable to adding 1 or 2 more skills (while propably getting rid of 1, so actually only 1 new button to press)
• “More Pet AI is not necessary” – that is simply wrong for a class having the Pet as its core mechanicand the outcome of a fight depending on it. Controll is one of the most needed improvements in sPvP to overcome the issues and difficulties we currently have as well as raising the skillceiling without making the class harder to get started with.
• “More pet controll is making the class to difficult for new and casual players” – I am a casual player, I say you are wrong. 1 extra button to press is no difference at all. It’s like saying that a Warrior Player could never handle a Mesmer, because Mesmers have 3 F-Skills more.

I’d like to read a devs response to my arguments to get a real discussion starting.
In my opinion the devs didn’t think this through so there is still discussions needed.

Aeri.5738:

I’d like to read a devs response to my arguments to get a real discussion starting.
In my opinion the devs didn’t think this through so there is still discussions needed.

There won’t be any discussions, because they just don’t want to listem. Problem is that to make ranger’s pet work they would have to give the direct control over the pet to players or to make great amount of mechanics to support pet’s AI. They are not going to do any of this, because they just don’t want to redo the whole system behind this. Right now the only thing they will “TRY” to do is to repair pet’s broken AI. As we are one year after the start of the game and pet’s AI still doesn’t work we just have to pray that they will rebalance our weapons so they’d start making good dmg again.

For starters the thread title is a little inflammatory. It’s a great sensationalising headline, but it doesn’t fairly represent what Jon said about pet control during State of the Game.

My stance on this is that the ranger is the class with the AI companion. The AI is supposed to do a job, it’s supposed to be this thing you want to have with you. When I look at the ranger class as a game experience, I want to feel like the pet is my ally that helps me, not something which complicates how I access the same tools other classes have. To me it’s imperative that the pet remains an AI companion and that the core design focus of the pet is that it’s supposed to be an AI companion that creates an experience in the game that you never fight alone. Some control over the pet is necessary but too much control over the pet defeats the purpose of the pet.

As they mentioned in State of the Game, there is a bit of freedom with the power level of pet skills because they are not directly controlled by the ranger. Players who are attracted to the idea of controlling pet skills are sometimes not considering that if direct control was given to the ranger, these skills would possibly be in need of a power level reduction. Having access to the wolf’s knockdown on demand (more so than manipulating the current AI) could mean it gets a longer cooldown. A good ranger can currently manipulate the wolf AI to get a knockdown when they want it with the benefit of the current cool down. This player might actually be worse off if direct control is given but the cooldown is increased to compensate (I will point out this is all hypothetical).

As far as raising the ceiling in dungeons for rangers to earn their spot… from a game balance perspective, if the devs want to make it easier for rangers to get into groups pet control is probably one of the lowest priorities. Thinking about pet skills and which ones might be useful in a dungeon, the only ones which matter that can’t already be controlled (or pseudo controlled) in my mind would be the moa heal and the spider’s immobilise. Maybe the poison field and bear’s have a tank skill but I haven’t use a bear since launch. The drake blast finisher is easy to manipulate with pet swapping and the many interrupts are almost completely worthless due to defiant. More micro for pets in dungeons would raise the ceiling (ie: the need to cautiously manage their location at all times to keep them alive) but that’s already the case and quite often it’s simply not possible (I think pet’s need to be more self sufficient in dungeons). I don’t think access to pet skills on demand would change their situation, although I do appreciate the stated consideration for the ranger’s ability to get into groups.

At some point you have to accept that the pet is an AI. If it’s not, it’s essentially requiring the player to control two entities at the same time to reach the same power level of another class. There are advantages in that the pet can still act while the ranger is stunned (like using a wolf to save you from a warrior’s stun lock) but for the most part, full control of both (or lots of control of the pet) is something I don’t want to see. I admit it’s less of an issue in PvE (which has it’s own dramatic issues which are less obvious in PvP) but as a class, the ranger should be pushing the experience of having an ally in this other world. The pet AI should be a welcome presence, not something that’s so bad that people want to remove it and replace it with control. To me, that’s the wrong direction.

They should just let you choose which of the pet skills you have in the “active” slot, so if you the active skill you have you want on auto you can, and then use a different one actively instead of passively.

Vena.8436:

Kasama.8941:

Move “Search and Rescue” and “Guard” (without stealth) on the pet skill bar, as permanent pet skills. This will make the pet useful when it’s on passive, and give more pet control to the Ranger. Any new player doesn’t need to use these skills, but they can make a difference at a higher skill level.

Thats not broken or anything.

No, not at all.

How would it be broken? They wouldn’t be shout skills anymore, obviously.

RyuDragnier.9476:

No, what they need to do is either give us access to a second pet skill to use on command, or redo how the entire pet is done.

If they placed “Search and Rescue” and “Guard” (without stealth) on the pet bar, they would be like second pet skills that you could use on command..

Except Search and Rescue was nerfed to uselessness by the devs, and Guard is very situational. It wouldn’t change a kitten thing right now.