Guild Wars 2

also forum bug does what forum bug does

also forum bug does what forum bug does

Shadowstep.6049:

Huskyboy.1053:

I think you’re missing my point; it’s not that Skelk Venom is good, it’s that ED is now actually worse than it. SV doesn’t have that arbitrary 1/2s trigger interval, you can spam AA and use up your charges very quickly before your target can react. With ED the smallest time window in which you can use up your charges is 2.5s.

To put that more concisely, you can use SV as part of a burst for quick healing, you can’t with ED. Unless you’re dueling a potato I think the opponent will react after the first second and start blocking/evading/invuln.

I main thief, not rev. Thief is hard but the class rewards skill, if your backstabs are 3k then you’re running a low-precision build. Mine are usually 6k or higher, 10k on a necro or ele. Your complaints about how Thief has been nerfed are a mirror of the Rev users complaining about Retribution: understandable, but overstated. The class is still relevant in the hands of a skilled user, as Sindrener has shown everyone. Although I think everyone agrees that the 1s ICD on stealth attacks came out of nowhere, they could at least replace the stealth attack with your AA if you miss.

You get more than 3k if people don’t run with protection, passives, have vulnerability stacks and you don’t have weakness on you. Given how much of that crap is flying around, gl landing 10k backstabs consistently (1 attack on druid is auto weakness).

I haven’t said that thief is not relevant. Why put words in my mouth?

My point is, rev players were absolutely fine with 1 CD on stealth attacks – skillful play yo, learn to watch CDs, invisible traits with no tell etc. But when they actually have to use their brains and attention for ED (basically put in same situation) then it is a problem all of sudden.

I didn’t pretend to quote you, no need to invent a personal attack. Simply stating my opinion that thief is still relevant. I agree that there are ways to reduce damage, but 3k on backstab is not a consistent issue for most people. You can always run sigil of nullification along with Bountiful Theft if you’re having trouble with Protection, there are obvious counters to the issue you’re bringing up. And on top of that Rending Shade was added, so there’s yet another way for thieves to deal with boons. And just for giggles there’s also Larcenous Strike.

Idk what you mean by “rev players were absolutely fine with 1 CD on stealth attacks,” I wasn’t ok with ICD on stealth attacks and still am not. Players don’t exist in vacuums, most of us play multiple classes. Maybe rather than bringing up every possible situation in which thief could be disadvantaged due to poor decision making/bad luck, and downplaying every legitimate weakness that Rev has, you could contribute some ways that Rev players can work around the issue of a healing skill with a 2.5s activation window (don’t forget the 1/2s trigger interval!). Or suggest ways to buff Rev or Thief in ways that don’t make them OP. Or at least say something constructive about how we can improve the situation, rather than making nonsensical comparisons between a healing skill and stealth attack ICDs.

Huskyboy.1053:

Shadowstep.6049:

Huskyboy.1053:

I think you’re missing my point; it’s not that Skelk Venom is good, it’s that ED is now actually worse than it. SV doesn’t have that arbitrary 1/2s trigger interval, you can spam AA and use up your charges very quickly before your target can react. With ED the smallest time window in which you can use up your charges is 2.5s.

To put that more concisely, you can use SV as part of a burst for quick healing, you can’t with ED. Unless you’re dueling a potato I think the opponent will react after the first second and start blocking/evading/invuln.

I main thief, not rev. Thief is hard but the class rewards skill, if your backstabs are 3k then you’re running a low-precision build. Mine are usually 6k or higher, 10k on a necro or ele. Your complaints about how Thief has been nerfed are a mirror of the Rev users complaining about Retribution: understandable, but overstated. The class is still relevant in the hands of a skilled user, as Sindrener has shown everyone. Although I think everyone agrees that the 1s ICD on stealth attacks came out of nowhere, they could at least replace the stealth attack with your AA if you miss.

You get more than 3k if people don’t run with protection, passives, have vulnerability stacks and you don’t have weakness on you. Given how much of that crap is flying around, gl landing 10k backstabs consistently (1 attack on druid is auto weakness).

I haven’t said that thief is not relevant. Why put words in my mouth?

My point is, rev players were absolutely fine with 1 CD on stealth attacks – skillful play yo, learn to watch CDs, invisible traits with no tell etc. But when they actually have to use their brains and attention for ED (basically put in same situation) then it is a problem all of sudden.

I didn’t pretend to quote you, no need to invent a personal attack. Simply stating my opinion that thief is still relevant. I agree that there are ways to reduce damage, but 3k on backstab is not a consistent issue for most people. You can always run sigil of nullification along with Bountiful Theft if you’re having trouble with Protection, there are obvious counters to the issue you’re bringing up. And on top of that Rending Shade was added, so there’s yet another way for thieves to deal with boons. And just for giggles there’s also Larcenous Strike.

Idk what you mean by “rev players were absolutely fine with 1 CD on stealth attacks,” I wasn’t ok with ICD on stealth attacks and still am not. Players don’t exist in vacuums, most of us play multiple classes. Maybe rather than bringing up every possible situation in which thief could be disadvantaged due to poor decision making/bad luck, and downplaying every legitimate weakness that Rev has, you could contribute some ways that Rev players can work around the issue of a healing skill with a 2.5s activation window (don’t forget the 1/2s trigger interval!). Or suggest ways to buff Rev or Thief in ways that don’t make them OP. Or at least say something constructive about how we can improve the situation, rather than making nonsensical comparisons between a healing skill and stealth attack ICDs.

I don’t think ED is “situation” that needs to be improved on first place. Once again, revs also have 2nd heal (which is quite amazing, especially with abundance of DHs dropping traps everywhere which you can abuse to heal as much as you can, in worst case works as invul vs players that pay attention), it is not like they entirely rely on ED – here is your work around.
Also, i will ask for rev buffs when they actually hit rock bottom like wars and thieves did in season 1 – then yes, buffs would be deserved, but then again, as long as all elite specs and revs are not bought down to core specs level, nothing deserves buffs.

I will give you that FoL heal is amazing against power builds; if used correctly against a power build, you should be getting no less than 3k health which is modest, and in node fights it shines. On the other hand, it’s useless against condi bombs since they’ll persist after the Infuse Light effect ends, meaning that you’ll likely net a health loss. So in the specific situation you cited you’re absolutely correct, but FoL basically forces you to allow condi stacking if you want heals, further forcing Revs to avoid condi matchups altogether. Similar to how thief has to avoid DH 1v1s, if you’ll allow that comparison.

Rev is weird in that firstly you can’t really pick your heal skills, and secondly in that both your heals’ usefulness is based on your enemies’ actions. FoL is kitten against someone with half a brain, they see Glint and green numbers when they hit you and they stop. That’s what makes ED and FoL so sucky now, no real alternative and bad healing against decent players. Rev is becoming a bit like DH in that it’s dominant against noobs but monolithic and highly predictable to anybody who’s familiar with it. And nerfing the Retribution line means that Invocation power rev is the only viable build for sPvP, making Rev even more predictable.

If Supreme.3164 isn’t complaining as usual then it must be a very good patch…for elementalist players.

PlatinumMember.5274:

If Supreme.3164 isn’t complaining as usual then it must be a very good patch…for elementalist players.

It’s pretty sick. The things they updated open up quite a few new possibilities, I’m looking forward to it even though I don’t play ele. They’ve gotten boring to fight this past meta.

Cecilia.5179:

I think they were responding to people complaining about how they balance with a giant hammer, so now they tried balancing with a tiny mallet.
This feels like more of a mid-season hotfix than a patch. Can we get something more meaningful? There are so many traits and skills in this game that need love. Us players send so many suggestions too. Some of them are good. Please take more of our suggestions.

Only nerfing a class when there are many parts of it that bugged or just plain bad isnt balancing with a mallet, its just plain foolishness.

Chungo.3169:

He is wrong but much, I do not use retribution, and I have no problems abate or warriors or guardians, I’ve been playing with rev 3000h, and you come to teach me to play rev? You better go to pvp using rev and sure to come with a different story in the pvp forum. (Aplauso)

I don’t play rev that often, however 3000 hours doesn’t mean you are #1 ranked, therefore there’s always room to improve. Couldn’t tell ya how many scrappers said the same thing and I still beat them and willingly taught them a few things. 3000 hours just means you know a few things.

Anywho, happy gaming and wanted to point that out

Huskyboy.1053:

PlatinumMember.5274:

If Supreme.3164 isn’t complaining as usual then it must be a very good patch…for elementalist players.

It’s pretty sick. The things they updated open up quite a few new possibilities, I’m looking forward to it even though I don’t play ele. They’ve gotten boring to fight this past meta.

Which generally means ele going to be OP as kitten

High level play… in gw2 LOL

They’ve done nothing to address the main issues of imbalance.
Conditions are still out of control,CC is still spamable,there are still high hitting attacks with defensive components,evade spamming,block spamming,it’s all there.
Still a spamfest of abilities with little to no tactical thinking needed.
Still 90% the class and build and 10% the player.
Those changes were epidermic,they make little to no difference.
All classes play 99% the same as they did before the patch.

Maybe that was just anet giving up on trying since no matter what they do,unless they redesign all classes form the ground up for PvP,balance will always be sub par in GW2.

At least my ele got dagger buffs.I really was looking forward to this.
Who needs survivability anyway.

Huskyboy.1053:

PlatinumMember.5274:

If Supreme.3164 isn’t complaining as usual then it must be a very good patch…for elementalist players.

It’s pretty sick. The things they updated open up quite a few new possibilities, I’m looking forward to it even though I don’t play ele. They’ve gotten boring to fight this past meta.

I can’t think of a class that is less useful and potent than elementalist right now.
The possibilities you have with this class are still the same.
a.If your team is half descent maybe they can carry you.
b.If you want to carry you’ll play another class
c.Thief fodder
d.Mesmer fodder
e.Delete your ele.

P.S f.Revenant fodder

Aenaos.8160:

Huskyboy.1053:

It’s pretty sick. The things they updated open up quite a few new possibilities, I’m looking forward to it even though I don’t play ele. They’ve gotten boring to fight this past meta.

I can’t think of a class that is less useful and potent than elementalist right now.
The possibilities you have with this class are still the same.
a.If your team is half descent maybe they can carry you.
b.If you want to carry you’ll play another class
c.Thief fodder
d.Mesmer fodder
e.Delete your ele.

P.S f.Revenant fodder

A. Ele carries mid fight with area condi cleanses and healing.
B. Ok
C. Good thief fodder, some thieves will try to interrupt while ele has stacks of stability or magnetic aura and waste their initiative.
D. Really? Condi mes can’t touch ele, and illusions die to overloads after 2 hits.
E. Not even marginally constructive.

F. 100% correct, that’s the rock-paper-scissors combat model we have rn. Not an issue specific to ele, condi mes owns power rev any day.

Huskyboy.1053:

Aenaos.8160:

Huskyboy.1053:

It’s pretty sick. The things they updated open up quite a few new possibilities, I’m looking forward to it even though I don’t play ele. They’ve gotten boring to fight this past meta.

I can’t think of a class that is less useful and potent than elementalist right now.
The possibilities you have with this class are still the same.
a.If your team is half descent maybe they can carry you.
b.If you want to carry you’ll play another class
c.Thief fodder
d.Mesmer fodder
e.Delete your ele.

P.S f.Revenant fodder

A. Ele carries mid fight with area condi cleanses and healing.
B. Ok
C. Good thief fodder, some thieves will try to interrupt while ele has stacks of stability or magnetic aura and waste their initiative.
D. Really? Condi mes can’t touch ele, and illusions die to overloads after 2 hits.
E. Not even marginally constructive.

F. 100% correct, that’s the rock-paper-scissors combat model we have rn. Not an issue specific to ele, condi mes owns power rev any day.

i only worry if my team has more than 1 ele. same with most classes though. more than 1 mesmer? problem. more than 1 thief? problem. but with 1 ele im happy. as a rev/warrior main i absolutely love the condi cleanse and heals during combat. can turn a fight into our favor assuming the enemy doesnt focus the ele.kinda like necro.

Aenaos.8160:

They’ve done nothing to address the main issues of imbalance.
Conditions are still out of control,CC is still spamable,there are still high hitting attacks with defensive components,evade spamming,block spamming,it’s all there.
Still a spamfest of abilities with little to no tactical thinking needed.
Still 90% the class and build and 10% the player.
Those changes were epidermic,they make little to no difference.
All classes play 99% the same as they did before the patch.

This right here, I miss the times before HoT so much.

Shadowstep.6049:

Buran.3796:

Cringe factor x1000000000. This is what happens when you overtune class beyond comparison and then bring bit back to normality levels – players suddenly don’t know what to do (sup turret engis).

Ok turret engis were not over tuned. They were not seriously competitive, they were just easy to play and whack noobs with, but couldn’t make it out of mid level competitive games.

Show me one competitive game in that era with a turret engi for crying out loud.

Huskyboy.1053:

Aenaos.8160:

Huskyboy.1053:

It’s pretty sick. The things they updated open up quite a few new possibilities, I’m looking forward to it even though I don’t play ele. They’ve gotten boring to fight this past meta.

I can’t think of a class that is less useful and potent than elementalist right now.
The possibilities you have with this class are still the same.
a.If your team is half descent maybe they can carry you.
b.If you want to carry you’ll play another class
c.Thief fodder
d.Mesmer fodder
e.Delete your ele.

P.S f.Revenant fodder

A. Ele carries mid fight with area condi cleanses and healing.
B. Ok
C. Good thief fodder, some thieves will try to interrupt while ele has stacks of stability or magnetic aura and waste their initiative.
D. Really? Condi mes can’t touch ele, and illusions die to overloads after 2 hits.
E. Not even marginally constructive.

F. 100% correct, that’s the rock-paper-scissors combat model we have rn. Not an issue specific to ele, condi mes owns power rev any day.

I kinda disagree on a couple of your points:
A – I think killing someone quickly is more of a carry than actual healing, tho a good healer can turn the tides of a fight, but I’d still rather have a rev instantly delete someone, than have an ele spam heal.
C – auraheal ele’s biggest weakness is no stability (except earth overload, but that isn’t instant activation). They might have magnetic aura or swirling winds, but I would be more afraid of Steal. That thing is deadly when used at the right time (overload, during heal skill, etc) + it steals protection. A healbot ele is a piece of cake for a thief if he knows what he’s doing.
D – condi mesmer is a hard matchup for healer ele as they have instant daze with shatter and ele has no stab. They also have daze with Staff #5, good hybrid damage (which means less Diamond skin uptime), shield #5 cc. Oh and clones pretty much never die to overload, cause if ele managed to land that overload air, it’s mesmer’s bad play.

All of what I said is related to 1v1 fights, teamfights are of course completely different, but still, the lack of stability is an even bigger weakness then.

Azukas.1426:

Disappointed with the balance team on this patch. I was hoping for a nice shake up of the meta that would promote skillful game play. Now it’s going to take some time for the meta to shake out, but I don’t see enough changes to include the weaker classes from last season.

Now I could be wrong, especially at the pro level, but a normal season is going to be more of the same.

Whats pro team are you on,again?

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Disappointed with the balance team on this patch. I was hoping for a nice shake up of the meta that would promote skillful game play. Now it’s going to take some time for the meta to shake out, but I don’t see enough changes to include the weaker classes from last season.

Now I could be wrong, especially at the pro level, but a normal season is going to be more of the same.

Whats pro team are you on,again?

Trying a wee too hard on that one.

All ready said I don’t know how pro will go. Almost there

Supreme.3164:

BlackBeard.2873:

This patch was like a solid B- if I had to grade it. They started toning down some of the stupid things that make some classes way too rewarding, while buffing a lot of completely useless traits and utilities for many classes.

I also agree that rev still needs some nerfs (mainly to get rid of some of the stupid mechanics of staff 5 and sword 2, while buffing other things to add some dps with more counterplay elsewhere).

Thieves should get a buff, but they really do need to tone down the ports a bit (also for rev). You can see they tried to do this with the new map, by giving some more obvious places you can’t port to, but it really does hurt any gameplay that relies on positioning to succeed when some classes have an ability that is as brainless as “push button, crap on face of guy maintaining good positioning in general”

In fact, if they did a decent job toning down some of the access to built-in hard mitigation of other classes, they could open up thief’s role without anything else. Too many classes tank way too well despite wearing dps amulets.

This patch is a solid A+

1) They finally stopped listening to the general forum whining, they recognised that listening to player A calling OP everything he loses to, it’s a bad decision…thx god

2) They tried to maintain profession integrity while reducing the faceroll nature of some build..without destroying anything

Revs are fine as they are, every profession must have that “oh kitten” factor to force the opponent in an unfavourable situation, this makes the game interesting and fun to play in my opinion, a game where profession A does C and profession B responds with D…it’s not what I call a MMO

Thief is great as they are as long as you have a regular player on it…and not a lemming, you have a role : decap and +1. You like it..so play thief…you want to 1vs1 Rambo everywhere…don’t play a thief is that simple. With time I’m sure they’ll give thieves a duellist elite spec or something similar.

This is a MMO and every profession has a role and purpose to fill, in PvP not every profession has to be able to 1vs1 things randomly, in WvW thieves are more than able to 1vs1 and win VS anybody….whoever say no to this..one warning…I can post 100+ videos of thieves 1vs1 and win in WvW

About this constant talking of ESL meta….it remains a ruse, a pointless attempt to give credibility to an otherwise a pointless thread

Wow so your saying other classes should have cool fights now and then and thief gets to run around and decap lmao. No offense but you sound like the problem: a toxic plebeian who has helped contribute to the demise of this game. Do you turn your character with"a" and “d” keys? Were you a World of Warcraft healer that only played magic and sat there in raids from a distance casting range spells? Do you avoid the hardest jumping puzzles in the game?

“every class has a role” keep drinking the kool-aid… lets have some classes shovel dirt i’m sure you’d be happy with that because we all have a role right? I guess some classes were meant for shoveling dirt and other classes were meant to 1v1 and engage in epic battles lol. WAKE UP! WAKE UP NOW! USE YOUR MIND!!!!!!

Azukas.1426:

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

The only place Thief isn’t very strong is in the very competitive scene that you don’t care about.

Actually I said I don’t care if DH was in Pro League meta they needed to remove that build or make it require skill to play. Please read the entire post before trying to rebuttal

Condition Mesmer is a skillful build, despite it not being the Power Shatter that you prefer.

Power Shatter is leaps and bounds more skillful than condi. It’s not even close in terms of how much skill is required.

As someone who played both extensively, I’d say condi shatter has a lower skill floor but a much higher skill ceiling.

At the end of the day, power shatter at high levels = stealth instagibbing someone in a +1. It’s not braindead easy, but there really isn’t a whole lot of complexity there. You even have an instacast stun via MOD to land the stealth burst. Yeah, you’re glassy AF, but your role isn’t to stay in fights. You stealth +1 someone to instagib them, and then disengage whether or not you succeed. Fights between two top-tier power shatter mesmers end up just being a random-dodge game due to all the instacasts.

In contrast, the meta condi mes build has way more things that you need to keep track of, and your role is a lot more complex because you aren’t limited to +1’ing people. Maximizing your damage from the retal + chronophantasma + phantasmal defender interplay, the whole mind game over whether to jump at the end of shield 4 (depending on if your opponent is going to pressure/interrupt right after vs. dodge), etc. are all considerations that you don’t have to deal w/ as power mes. The lack of stealth means you actually have to count dodges and set up your combos; it also means no easy resets.

But yes, condi mes is easier to survive with at a basic level, so if we’re talking about lower-level pvp then yeah condi mes is probably easier. Again, lower skill floor, higher skill ceiling.

As a more general matter, balance in GW2 has been moving towards builds that are generally lower skill floor but higher skill ceiling. I think this patch was basically just a continuation of that. It kind of failed to increase build diversity, but I think we’ll see better representation between classes at least due to the rev, druid, and scrapper nerfs, as well as the downstate change (which is great for thieves, which were great for +1 but risky for cleaves).

Azukas.1426:

Disappointed with the balance team on this patch. I was hoping for a nice shake up of the meta

I concur. I’m extremely disappointed that nearly nothing was changed. I’ll be taking a break and trying Eve’s free-mode for a while.

I get the impression that the balance team is lost without the previous staff members.

Svarty.8019:

Azukas.1426:

Disappointed with the balance team on this patch. I was hoping for a nice shake up of the meta

I concur. I’m extremely disappointed that nearly nothing was changed. I’ll be taking a break and trying Eve’s free-mode for a while.

I get the impression that the balance team is lost without the previous staff members.

The patch just hit, it’s still off season, a lot of the ESL players are currently testing out new builds and theorycrafting new comps.

Even if the patch made significant changes to the meta, you (and the OP) probably wouldn’t notice the shift until the tournaments start up again and people see the new builds/comps being used and then copy/paste them.