Guild Wars 2

Aereniel.7356:

Ceraldor.3160:

It’s much safer to play defensive if you are the better player! Bad luck will have a much less impact on defensive players. So if the defensive player is already winning, the chance that bad luck will make him lose is much lesser than when he would go for an offensive setup.

So what you are saying is that defensive specs are more tolerant in terms of RNG, hence it’s preferable to gravitate towards them. In essence, defensive setups are (say it with me now) more forgiving. Has it really taken you this entire thread to state the obvious?

Yes def setups are more forgiving when it comes to taking damage. I said that already in my initial post.
But off setups are much more forgiving when it comes to downing an enemy. If they mess up their burst, they will have the next burst much faster than a def setup player. Also the bursts are much higher from off setup players.
Again: I never said that either – def or off – is more forgiving than the other when you look at it from both sides.

Ceraldor.3160:

A good player will try to minimize the luck involved in a match since he would be winning if no luck at all is taken into account. This “luck minimization” is done by going for a more defensive setup.
A bad player needs the advantage luck may give him so he will strive for a more offensive setup.

Aereniel.7356:

Speaking of GW2 specifically, my personal observations are pretty much the exact opposite. Weaker players tend to pick tankier condition specs, because such specs tolerate more errors in skill use, positioning and timing than glass cannon specs. A weak player can still be marginally effective running a tanky defensive spec, while he/she would be totally ineffective running a glass spec. The risk vs. reward in tanky specs is more attractive to weaker players. But Xeph already went over all of this, and he did it with much more patience and expertise than I can muster.

1. I said now already 10 times that stuff like cond dmg, minion builds etc are not balanced in terms of an off / def ratio.
2. I also said that you need gc in gw2 because it’s conquest. And yes, a bad player can do much more with a tanky setup in conquest mode. (someone who just uses arrow keys and #1 can at least stall for while).
However, this is not the case when we are talking about even fights to death!

Ceraldor.3160:

Snippety snip!

Look, you seem like a nice enough fellow. But you also seem more interested in having people agree with you, as opposed to having any sort of genuine dialogue. As I can’t in good conscience agree with your premise, I don’t really see how you, I or this forum will benefit from continuing this exchange. At best we’ll be a pseudo-comical footnote in some poor PR assistant’s weekly forum report, which he/she will file to higher-ups on a rainy Friday afternoon, only to be blissfully ignored and stored away in the musty corner of a cloud drive somewhere, a few hundred kilobytes of worthless data standing testament to the fall of man.

So let’s not.

Aereniel.7356:

Ceraldor.3160:

Snippety snip!

Look, you seem like a nice enough fellow. But you also seem more interested in having people agree with you, as opposed to having any sort of genuine dialogue. As I can’t in good conscience agree with your premise, I don’t really see how you, I or this forum will benefit from continuing this exchange. At best we’ll be a pseudo-comical footnote in some poor PR assistant’s weekly forum report, which he/she will file to higher-ups on a rainy Friday afternoon, only to be blissfully ignored and stored away in the musty corner of a cloud drive somewhere, a few hundred kilobytes of worthless data standing testament to the fall of man.

So let’s not.

+1, agree & merry christmas. 3 quarks for muster mark.

Ceraldor.3160:

:/

Thief is the only class that does not abide by this, because they have an excess amount of stealth / evades / gap closer’s / damage on demand; they are possibly the single best class for keeping people down, along with having the high burst potential and great team utility; they are also very survivable.
Running anything but a glass thief is akin to having diarrhea instead of a cheese burger; it just makes no sense.

Just in retort to the comment that you made earlier about me crying about S/D thief, I also did happen to mention earlier in my post that thief is the exception to the rule; regardless you mentioning me complaining about a class that was widely regarded as broken at the time, just proves to me that you are just reaching for straws and coming short.

As Aereniel.7356 put it, you are just looking for people to agree with, it seems that posting further in this thread is rather pointless, proof to that is everyone that have tried discussing the topic only to be put down by you constantly stating that they have missed the point of the thread. Not only that but the childish retort to my previous post just makes it seem like you are nothing but a waste of time; so i’ll just end it here, good luck with whatever point it is that your trying to prove.

Ceraldor.3160:

….
.
But off setups are much more forgiving when it comes to downing an enemy. If they mess up their burst, they will have the next burst much faster than a def setup player. Also the bursts are much higher from off setup players.
Again: I never said that either – def or off – is more forgiving than the other when you look at it from both sides.
….A good player will try to minimize the luck involved in a match since he would be winning if no luck at all is taken into account. This “luck minimization” is done by going for a more defensive setup.
A bad player needs the advantage luck may give him so he will strive for a more offensive setup.

1. I said now already 10 times that stuff like cond dmg, minion builds etc are not balanced in terms of an off / def ratio.
2. I also said that you need gc in gw2 because it’s conquest. And yes, a bad player can do much more with a tanky setup in conquest mode. (someone who just uses arrow keys and #1 can at least stall for while).
However, this is not the case when we are talking about even fights to death!

so the amulett determines the recharge? joking right?

so in your logic the amount of luck decreases with the duration of the fight? lol, so i guess the amount of fish in the ozean decrease by the size of the ozean?

if its not about gw2 or conquest why bother? the whole conversation is just stupid. the game, mode, team and several other points determine why ppl prefer something or not. and in the most time the simple reason behind that is mathe.

i think this thread should be closed

let this thread be continued after the zerk nerf in damage, we’ll discuss if it’s still viable or not worth it in a new thread.

@ OP your post makes perfect sense in a death-match.

but in a game to 500 where the majority of the points are scored by standing in circles, it makes much less sense.

also your point of “3 skills” you are certainly referring to one particular encounter. over the course of an entire match we are talking hundreds of skills, more than enough to ensure the skilled player is the winner the vast majority of the time.

Swagginator.3246:

let this thread be continued after the zerk nerf in damage, we’ll discuss if it’s still viable or not worth it in a new thread.

i thought this change was not being made to PvP? just PvE and WvW…….

Phaeton.9582:

Can someone tell me if this is a joke thread before I read it?

Edit: at the risk of this being a trolled, sounds like you’re saying defensive set ups are harder, so four reasons why that’s not the case, real fast.

A: Landing key attacks consistently is more important on glass builds; glassvglass defines the winner almost immediately, and vs bunker/sustain it is vital to take them down.

B: in team fights, glass teams take more coordination to pull off as when and how to use your burst is crucial. EG if you down someone and he gets ressed easily that’s a big plus to the attrition team. Attrition teams just focus in on the first guy to run out of cool downs.

C: attrition builds can take stuff on the chin; glass builds can’t. Not getting hit by stuff is harder than using your heal when it comes off cooldown.

D: thieves

There are many more reasons, but in all honesty even I don’t care.

You also sir, are missing the point.

Example 1 Duel:
Two glass classes

Round 1:
Thief “A” wins
Thief “B”: “Aww man, that was sooo lucky. You literally used ‘x’ a millisecond before I used ‘x’, lets go again?”

Round 2:
Thief “B” wins
Thief “A”: “No good, I lag spiked like twice that round, go again.”

Round 3-4-5 etc…
Eventually the better player becomes obvious.

Example B:
Two tankier classes duel

Round 1:
Tank “A” wins
Tank “B”: “Holy crap that was a kitten good fight.”

/example

This game could use a serious reduction in spike damage and healing. They are actually in a unique position to do that since no-one would get kitten if healing took a hit to compensate for lower damage.

Ceraldor.3160:

1. Offensive builds rely much more on luck than defensive builds.

Point of OP is: In a game where off and def stats are balanced, the chance that the winner of a fight is actually the better player is much higher when 2 tanky teams play compared to 2 gc fighting each other.

Assume characters deal 5 damage per attack, have 0% base critical hit chance & critical damage coefficient is double (x2).

Example 1:

Build A:
+20% critical hit chance.
Build B:
20% chance on attack to restore 10HP.

Example 2:

Build A:
+5% damage.
Build B:
-5% damage.

Voila! Equally skill demanding & luck dependent offensive and defensive builds.

Solstice.1097:

Swagginator.3246:

let this thread be continued after the zerk nerf in damage, we’ll discuss if it’s still viable or not worth it in a new thread.

i thought this change was not being made to PvP? just PvE and WvW…….

u made me doubt.. i heard from stream but may not have paid enough attention to the point you made.

bud.9246:

Phaeton.9582:

Can someone tell me if this is a joke thread before I read it?

Edit: at the risk of this being a trolled, sounds like you’re saying defensive set ups are harder, so four reasons why that’s not the case, real fast.

A: Landing key attacks consistently is more important on glass builds; glassvglass defines the winner almost immediately, and vs bunker/sustain it is vital to take them down.

B: in team fights, glass teams take more coordination to pull off as when and how to use your burst is crucial. EG if you down someone and he gets ressed easily that’s a big plus to the attrition team. Attrition teams just focus in on the first guy to run out of cool downs.

C: attrition builds can take stuff on the chin; glass builds can’t. Not getting hit by stuff is harder than using your heal when it comes off cooldown.

D: thieves

There are many more reasons, but in all honesty even I don’t care.

You also sir, are missing the point.

Example 1 Duel:
Two glass classes

Round 1:
Thief “A” wins
Thief “B”: “Aww man, that was sooo lucky. You literally used ‘x’ a millisecond before I used ‘x’, lets go again?”

Round 2:
Thief “B” wins
Thief “A”: “No good, I lag spiked like twice that round, go again.”

Round 3-4-5 etc…
Eventually the better player becomes obvious.

Example B:
Two tankier classes duel

Round 1:
Tank “A” wins
Tank “B”: “Holy crap that was a kitten good fight.”

/example

This game could use a serious reduction in spike damage and healing. They are actually in a unique position to do that since no-one would get kitten if healing took a hit to compensate for lower damage.

omg no

The fight you’re describing might be the case if builds were mirrored, however in a normal scenario a drawn out fight like that would be more build related. Hence the phrase buildwars 2. Basically the more a fight deemphasizes the landing of key attacks at specific times, as well as the retention of cooldowns, the quicker it devolves into build-related faceroll.

Actually.. why am I being nice about this. You’re very very wrong, and the only reason the OP is forgiven is because he is clearly an excellent troll.

wait just read that last bit ARE YOU SERIOUS???!!!111111one

bud.9246:

This game could use a serious reduction in spike damage and healing. They are actually in a unique position to do that since no-one would get kitten if healing took a hit to compensate for lower damage.

Wrong. The game needs a higher risk reward ratio. Spike damage should be INCREASED. At the same time the core amount of defense for those builds should be reduced. Likewise, if someone wants to run defensive, that should also be increased. On the flip side, their damage should see a nerf.

Right now, skills do not scale enough with the armor/trinkets that you select. That is what makes GC or pure tank so viable in tPvP. There needs to be greater consequences for gear selection.

OP is a red herring, move along.

Real Reason is that the other professions are so bugged that they become unplayable..

Fix your kitten!

Ceraldor.3160:

Pyriall.5027:

Play hambow soldiers…look how much more skillful you become. I don’t even pay attention to what I’m doing. Two people on point? I just go in trucking…Play zerker anything and that’s not happening.

Please quote me where I said that berserker needs more or less skill than soldier!

When you made the statement that only bads play zerker, you insinuate there is more skill playing the opposite.

Pyriall.5027:

Ceraldor.3160:

Pyriall.5027:

Play hambow soldiers…look how much more skillful you become. I don’t even pay attention to what I’m doing. Two people on point? I just go in trucking…Play zerker anything and that’s not happening.

Please quote me where I said that berserker needs more or less skill than soldier!

When you made the statement that only bads play zerker, you insinuate there is more skill playing the opposite.

This – right this shows me that you have not understand one word you have read, which is honestly a little sad.
I wrote “Bad players prefer playing berzerker” – explanation: it gives them a chance to win against better players.
Here are some quotes from my very first post in this thread which you have to read very slowly and after you have read them a second or, even better, third time please spend at least 3 hours to understand them and then (only then) you can come back to apologize:

Ceraldor.3160:

Let’s have a look at the differences between an off and a def setup:
pros for def:
-more survivabilty
-easier to recover

pros for off:
-higher burst with less cd
-higher sustain

Ceraldor.3160:

If you want an example just take the normal berzerker backstab thief compared to a soldier/venom thief.
The soldier/venom thief only has medium burst every ~30s when activating his leeching venoms. But his survivabilty is of course much higher due to more def stats and more healing (leeching venoms).

Ceraldor.3160:

Why do people think it’s harder to player the zerker thief than the soldier thief? Because you die much faster!

Ceraldor.3160:

In conclusion:
So going for a defensive setup vs offensive setup is „having the risk of not being able to kill someone but getting rewarded by living longer“ vs „having the risk of dying very easy but getting rewarded by killing very fast and easy.“

So in my very first post you can find me at least 4 times saying that it’s harder to survive with an off setup compared to a def setup.
What I’m saying is, that at the same time it’s much easier for someone with 3000 attack, 50%+ crit chance und 100% crit damage to kill a bunker than it is for a bunker guardian to kill a bunker.
I really hope you agree with me on this point or are you going to say that you see all them bunker guards killing stuff 24/7?

Ceraldor.3160:

Pyriall.5027:

Ceraldor.3160:

Pyriall.5027:

Play hambow soldiers…look how much more skillful you become. I don’t even pay attention to what I’m doing. Two people on point? I just go in trucking…Play zerker anything and that’s not happening.

Please quote me where I said that berserker needs more or less skill than soldier!

When you made the statement that only bads play zerker, you insinuate there is more skill playing the opposite.

This – right this shows me that you have not understand one word you have read, which is honestly a little sad.
I wrote “Bad players prefer playing berzerker” – explanation: it gives them a chance to win against better players.
Here are some quotes from my very first post in this thread which you have to read very slowly and after you have read them a second or, even better, third time please spend at least 3 hours to understand them and then (only then) you can come back to apologize:

Ceraldor.3160:

Let’s have a look at the differences between an off and a def setup:
pros for def:
-more survivabilty
-easier to recover

pros for off:
-higher burst with less cd
-higher sustain

Ceraldor.3160:

If you want an example just take the normal berzerker backstab thief compared to a soldier/venom thief.
The soldier/venom thief only has medium burst every ~30s when activating his leeching venoms. But his survivabilty is of course much higher due to more def stats and more healing (leeching venoms).

Ceraldor.3160:

Why do people think it’s harder to player the zerker thief than the soldier thief? Because you die much faster!

Ceraldor.3160:

In conclusion:
So going for a defensive setup vs offensive setup is „having the risk of not being able to kill someone but getting rewarded by living longer“ vs „having the risk of dying very easy but getting rewarded by killing very fast and easy.“

So in my very first post you can find me at least 4 times saying that it’s harder to survive with an off setup compared to a def setup.
What I’m saying is, that at the same time it’s much easier for someone with 3000 attack, 50%+ crit chance und 100% crit damage to kill a bunker than it is for a bunker guardian to kill a bunker.
I really hope you agree with me on this point or are you going to say that you see all them bunker guards killing stuff 24/7?

This right here only proves, you are not sure which side of your mouth you want to argue from.

Xeph.4513:

Running anything but a glass thief is akin to having diarrhea instead of a cheese burger; it just makes no sense.

First of all, I don’t exactly know what this quote means, but it is hilarious!

Secondly, I do agree with Xeph’s main point – Zerker builds have a MUCH higher skill-cap as they must have timing, positional awareness, and much less margin for error than tanky-defensive builds that rely on just out-healing and blocking everything. The primary argument of the OP is that Zerker is easy when you just intagib someone else and they can’t fight back. At the LOWEST levels of play this is true – people in wvw get hit down to 40% by a full-glass thief, panic, and die. However, it doesn’t take TOO much to learn that the full-glass player relying on a 1-trick wombo-combo is gonna melt as soon as you learn to mitigate his damage (stunbreak, dodge, etc). Above THIS skill level (where intsagibs don’t really happen), running zerker is way more terrifying because you have to set up and land a few skill-shots to kill a tanky player, but still risk being melted in second if caught in a burst or caught off-guard by another dps player.

The reason “good” players (which I assume you mean players near the top of the leaderboard) play defensive specs, is because defensive specs currently out-perform in the risk:reward ratio.

the funny thing about the whole argumentation its complete against normal logic.. a defensive setup allows more errors > more newb. friendly
and the longer the fight goes the possible amount of luck rises..

how i said. normal logic.

his argumentation says the greater the lake the less fish are swimming in them. or another metapher: in his logic, the greater the universe the less stars it have.

hooma.9642:

his argumentation says the greater the lake the less fish are swimming in them. or another metapher: in his logic, the greater the universe the less stars it have.

Going by those “metaphors”, you learned about probability while hunting out there in the wilderness.

BlackBeard.2873:

The reason “good” players (which I assume you mean players near the top of the leaderboard) play defensive specs, is because defensive specs currently out-perform in the risk:reward ratio.

Let’s just assume this was true, wouldn’t that mean that the the premise that bad players prefer playing zerker’s was once again correct, albeit for a different reason?

Why would you play something that is less effective, if your ambition was to be successful?

Phaeton.9582:

bud.9246:

Phaeton.9582:

Can someone tell me if this is a joke thread before I read it?

Edit: at the risk of this being a trolled, sounds like you’re saying defensive set ups are harder, so four reasons why that’s not the case, real fast.

A: Landing key attacks consistently is more important on glass builds; glassvglass defines the winner almost immediately, and vs bunker/sustain it is vital to take them down.

B: in team fights, glass teams take more coordination to pull off as when and how to use your burst is crucial. EG if you down someone and he gets ressed easily that’s a big plus to the attrition team. Attrition teams just focus in on the first guy to run out of cool downs.

C: attrition builds can take stuff on the chin; glass builds can’t. Not getting hit by stuff is harder than using your heal when it comes off cooldown.

D: thieves

There are many more reasons, but in all honesty even I don’t care.

You also sir, are missing the point.

Example 1 Duel:
Two glass classes

Round 1:
Thief “A” wins
Thief “B”: “Aww man, that was sooo lucky. You literally used ‘x’ a millisecond before I used ‘x’, lets go again?”

Round 2:
Thief “B” wins
Thief “A”: “No good, I lag spiked like twice that round, go again.”

Round 3-4-5 etc…
Eventually the better player becomes obvious.

Example B:
Two tankier classes duel

Round 1:
Tank “A” wins
Tank “B”: “Holy crap that was a kitten good fight.”

/example

This game could use a serious reduction in spike damage and healing. They are actually in a unique position to do that since no-one would get kitten if healing took a hit to compensate for lower damage.

omg no

The fight you’re describing might be the case if builds were mirrored, however in a normal scenario a drawn out fight like that would be more build related. Hence the phrase buildwars 2. Basically the more a fight deemphasizes the landing of key attacks at specific times, as well as the retention of cooldowns, the quicker it devolves into build-related faceroll.

Actually.. why am I being nice about this. You’re very very wrong, and the only reason the OP is forgiven is because he is clearly an excellent troll.

wait just read that last bit ARE YOU SERIOUS???!!!111111one

.

What I mainly see you saying is that you think any fight that lasts longer is de-emphasizing interupts, well placed dodges and so on.

I don’t understand how you can come to that conclusion…

The example I used clearly shows that both ends of the spectrum will come to the same ending. Simply that one will take many rounds to decide and the other, not so many.

In game this means that you will win the fights your are supposed to a vast majority of the time. As it stands now only the most disparaging of match ups could be decided in one or two rounds.

when I am playing bunker cantrip d/d ele and have lag spike I think “pff whatever, keep faceroll”
when I am playing fresh air full burst and have lag spike I am pressing alt-tab to read some news/check mail/open new playlist.

there is no skill in bunker/condi play. no. not a little. no skill, just faceroll, unless you are guardian 1v3

OneManArmy.9732:

when I am playing bunker cantrip d/d ele and have lag spike I think “pff whatever, keep faceroll”
when I am playing fresh air full burst and have lag spike I am pressing alt-tab to read some news/check mail/open new playlist.

there is no skill in bunker/condi play. no. not a little. no skill, just faceroll, unless you are guardian 1v3

lol… yet another *whhoosssshhhhhhhhh"

viability of builds in GW2 thread is that way >

OneManArmy.9732:

when I am playing bunker cantrip d/d ele and have lag spike I think “pff whatever, keep faceroll”
when I am playing fresh air full burst and have lag spike I am pressing alt-tab to read some news/check mail/open new playlist.

there is no skill in bunker/condi play. no. not a little. no skill, just faceroll, unless you are guardian 1v3

So what would your answer be to the question:
With which build is it easier for you to kill a bunker guard? With your fresh air full burst ele or with your cantrip d/d ele?
I mean “how much def” can the guard go, before it becomes impossible for you and your skill-level to kill this guard with the off spec compared to the def spec?

Why bother arguing with someone that acts elitist and insults you to boot for no good reason? If OPs agenda truly is to theory craft and create a discussion, he is doing a very poor job.

/abandonpointlessthread

Ceraldor.3160:

OneManArmy.9732:

when I am playing bunker cantrip d/d ele and have lag spike I think “pff whatever, keep faceroll”
when I am playing fresh air full burst and have lag spike I am pressing alt-tab to read some news/check mail/open new playlist.

there is no skill in bunker/condi play. no. not a little. no skill, just faceroll, unless you are guardian 1v3

So what would your answer be to the question:
With which build is it easier for you to kill a bunker guard? With your fresh air full burst ele or with your cantrip d/d ele?
I mean “how much def” can the guard go, before it becomes impossible for you and your skill-level to kill this guard with the off spec compared to the def spec?

You dont get it..The answer is simple.The d/d build cant kill a guard ..regardless of skill level.This isnt a game were by defense we mean just more hp to burn before going down!
Its so easy to outsustain someone.And there are builds that not only outsustain a huge variety of other potential builds ( some can like outsustain all non zerker power builds) but also do damage to be a threat to a huge amount of builds aswell.
You oversimply things so much.You dont take into account resets,healing,downed states and rezzes,teamfights and ability to soak up pressure/difficulty of executing your part to do damage..
Defensive builds in your mind are probably something entirely different to what everyone else is talking about..Its like you are talking about some other game.

Malcastus.6240:

Why bother arguing with someone that acts elitist and insults you to boot for no good reason? If OPs agenda truly is to theory craft and create a discussion, he is doing a very poor job.

/abandonpointlessthread

That’s not true.
But in my opinion someone who makes a “flamy” post should not be surprised if he gets a “flamy” response.
And yes, if someone is just sooo much wrong I think/hope he is being it on purpose, which does make me a little angry.^^

Avead.5760:

Ceraldor.3160:

OneManArmy.9732:

when I am playing bunker cantrip d/d ele and have lag spike I think “pff whatever, keep faceroll”
when I am playing fresh air full burst and have lag spike I am pressing alt-tab to read some news/check mail/open new playlist.

there is no skill in bunker/condi play. no. not a little. no skill, just faceroll, unless you are guardian 1v3

So what would your answer be to the question:
With which build is it easier for you to kill a bunker guard? With your fresh air full burst ele or with your cantrip d/d ele?
I mean “how much def” can the guard go, before it becomes impossible for you and your skill-level to kill this guard with the off spec compared to the def spec?

You dont get it..The answer is simple.The d/d build cant kill a guard ..regardless of skill level.This isnt a game were by defense we mean just more hp to burn before going down!
Its so easy to outsustain someone.And there are builds that not only outsustain a huge variety of other potential builds ( some can like outsustain all non zerker power builds) but also do damage to be a threat to a huge amount of builds aswell.
You oversimply things so much.You dont take into account resets,healing,downed states and rezzes,teamfights and ability to soak up pressure/difficulty of executing your part to do damage..
Defensive builds in your mind are probably something entirely different to what everyone else is talking about..Its like you are talking about some other game.

I think what you were trying to say was:

My cantrip ele can only kill a guard, who:
invested nearly nothing in defense. It’s too hard for me to kill the guard if he wears something else than a berzerker amulet.

However my fresh air ele can kill a guard, who:
invested about 80% in defense. If I get some nice crits I can even kill a 0/0/30/10/30 shaman guard!
[or something like that]

Now to your
“Defensive builds in your mind are probably something entirely different to what everyone else is talking about”

Read first post:

Ceraldor.3160:

Important!!!:
This always leads into top groups going as defensive as possible while still be able to kill the enemy with good coordination of burst and CC. I am not saying top teams are going full bunker in every game! I will write it again:
Top teams always go as defensive as possible WHILE still be able to kill the enemy team „with skill“.

So again:
A well played soldier venom share thief is able to kill a “bunerish” ranger for example with good use of his venom leech dmg and when headshotting his heal.
But he will have a hard time against a full bunker guard. However if just one bunker (like his own guard) is beating on this enemy bunker guard at the same time, they will kill him cause 2* unmitigable leeching venom damage is just too much (<— this is a very simple example of what I was refering to as good team coordination/ team play)

And yes – a soldier venom thief is not a “full bunker”. But I hope you agree with me when I say that such a thief has def setup compared to a berzerker bs thief.

So this thread is basicly about how much “harder” a non effective/bad defensive build is to play vs a build optimized for the gametype is to play?

It’s like saying warriors were hard to play before cleansing ire etc, it wasn’t it was just not effective compared to any other class for any role the warriors tried to fill.

Just cause something is more effective to play it doesn’t mean it’s easier/harder to play.
You can also achieve same kind of coordination with between a zerker thief using an effective build + another class as with a venom share thief+another class, it’s just going to be more effective for the gametype.

Defensive build: Harder to kill something since it’s just don’t have the offensive power and if the main burst/whatever is dodged you do no damage but you can easier survive if you position yourself bad/dodge badly

Offensive build: Can just be as hard to kill something if the main burst/whatever is evaded but also ALOT harder to survive with since it punishes bad positioning and bad dodgeing alot more

Vuh.1328:

So this thread is basicly about how much “harder” a non effective/bad defensive build is to play vs a build optimized for the gametype is to play?

No, I never said that one build is harder to play than the other when you compare everything.
I said it’s harder for a def setup to kill a bunker than it’s for an off setup but you can still manage to do it with skill.
I also said it’s harder for an off setup to survive but you can still survive when you have enough skill.
BUT:
If you mess up something and get hit with an off build (which everyone does except Xeph who never gets hit —> except when he plays against a thief) you will die very easily.
If you mess up with a def setup (which you do except you play like a god etc) you didn’t kill your enemy. But you didn’t die!

Vuh.1328:

Defensive build: Harder to kill something since it’s just don’t have the offensive power and if the main burst/whatever is dodged you do no damage but you can easier survive if you position yourself bad/dodge badly

Offensive build: Can just be as hard to kill something if the main burst/whatever is evaded but also ALOT harder to survive with since it punishes bad positioning and bad dodgeing alot more

In general that’s true with the exception that:
actually off setups have also higher sustained than def setup. So if an off setup misses his burst he will still have an easier time killing something than a def setup who misses his burst.

bud.9246:

Phaeton.9582:

bud.9246:

Phaeton.9582:

Can someone tell me if this is a joke thread before I read it?

Edit: at the risk of this being a trolled, sounds like you’re saying defensive set ups are harder, so four reasons why that’s not the case, real fast.

A: Landing key attacks consistently is more important on glass builds; glassvglass defines the winner almost immediately, and vs bunker/sustain it is vital to take them down.

B: in team fights, glass teams take more coordination to pull off as when and how to use your burst is crucial. EG if you down someone and he gets ressed easily that’s a big plus to the attrition team. Attrition teams just focus in on the first guy to run out of cool downs.

C: attrition builds can take stuff on the chin; glass builds can’t. Not getting hit by stuff is harder than using your heal when it comes off cooldown.

D: thieves

There are many more reasons, but in all honesty even I don’t care.

You also sir, are missing the point.

Example 1 Duel:
Two glass classes

Round 1:
Thief “A” wins
Thief “B”: “Aww man, that was sooo lucky. You literally used ‘x’ a millisecond before I used ‘x’, lets go again?”

Round 2:
Thief “B” wins
Thief “A”: “No good, I lag spiked like twice that round, go again.”

Round 3-4-5 etc…
Eventually the better player becomes obvious.

Example B:
Two tankier classes duel

Round 1:
Tank “A” wins
Tank “B”: “Holy crap that was a kitten good fight.”

/example

This game could use a serious reduction in spike damage and healing. They are actually in a unique position to do that since no-one would get kitten if healing took a hit to compensate for lower damage.

omg no

The fight you’re describing might be the case if builds were mirrored, however in a normal scenario a drawn out fight like that would be more build related. Hence the phrase buildwars 2. Basically the more a fight deemphasizes the landing of key attacks at specific times, as well as the retention of cooldowns, the quicker it devolves into build-related faceroll.

Actually.. why am I being nice about this. You’re very very wrong, and the only reason the OP is forgiven is because he is clearly an excellent troll.

wait just read that last bit ARE YOU SERIOUS???!!!111111one

.

What I mainly see you saying is that you think any fight that lasts longer is de-emphasizing interupts, well placed dodges and so on.

I don’t understand how you can come to that conclusion…

The example I used clearly shows that both ends of the spectrum will come to the same ending. Simply that one will take many rounds to decide and the other, not so many.

In game this means that you will win the fights your are supposed to a vast majority of the time. As it stands now only the most disparaging of match ups could be decided in one or two rounds.

nope you misread it

I appreciate your civility, but this idea really doesn’t apply to spvp

- provocation and attempts of insult
- blatant arrogance and elitism, thus unlikable author
- argumentation based on overgeneralization and ignorance
- many arguments not related to the actual content of the subject
- terrible example

3/10 – bad attitude is most likely the only reason for people to engage in this “discussion”, at least it is structured and legible.

good luck on your crusade.

Erzian.5218:

- provocation and attempts of insult
- blatant arrogance and elitism, thus unlikable author
- argumentation based on overgeneralization and ignorance
- many arguments not related to the actual content of the subject
- terrible example

3/10 – bad attitude is most likely the only reason for people to engage in this “discussion”, at least it is structured and legible.

good luck on your crusade.

Though I have to admit that OP is not always answering the nicest way possible his posts do contain more logical thinking than 99% else I’m reading on these forums.

Imho OP just got sick of people pretending how hard berserker is to play.
He showed that when you look at it from both sides – surviving and killing, def and off setup are equally hard to play (except for cond-bunker since cond dmg is just an unbalanced stat).
[The only reason why def seems to be easier in gw2 is because the only game mode is conquest and the worst player is a greater help to his team when standing full def on a point than playing off]

Then the OP was making fun about people saying „def is much safer“ which sounds so much like this quote:

Josh Davis.6015:

I may just be a skeptic, but I feel that increasing points per kill, at least in the current meta, would just push players even further into defensive/attrition builds rather than offensive. It’s safer.

(different thread)

OP agreed to this simply by saying that def setups minimize the impact of luck, so chances the better player wins are „much safer“.
This is very easy to understand by reading this (imho):

Ceraldor.3160:

Everyone should see it like this:
If a fight needs 100 abilities to end – to define the winner and the loser – the chance that the better player is the winner is much higher than in a fight which is over after only 3 abilities were used.

Everyone just needs to accept the fact that, on average, a fight is shorter/contains less abilities when fighting with berserker compared to soldier gear.

This argument to me is framed in a silly way, trying to link a player’s skill to their preferred build. From my experience, higher armor is much more forgiving and very much easier to play for less-skilled players.

A highly skilled player that is very good at active defense (timing his dodges, evades, blocks, heals, interrupts, bursts, movements, and managing CD’s) can play a higher damage build as he does not need to rely as much on passive defense to keep him alive.

That being said, no team, regardless of skill level, should be 5 full bunkers, and no team should be 5 full DPS builds. So what does a “good” player play? The answer is: what his team needs.

Ceraldor.3160:

OneManArmy.9732:

when I am playing bunker cantrip d/d ele and have lag spike I think “pff whatever, keep faceroll”
when I am playing fresh air full burst and have lag spike I am pressing alt-tab to read some news/check mail/open new playlist.

there is no skill in bunker/condi play. no. not a little. no skill, just faceroll, unless you are guardian 1v3

So what would your answer be to the question:
With which build is it easier for you to kill a bunker guard? With your fresh air full burst ele or with your cantrip d/d ele?
I mean “how much def” can the guard go, before it becomes impossible for you and your skill-level to kill this guard with the off spec compared to the def spec?

how about math and not skill? a bunker cant kill a bunker cause missing skill, no cause its mathematical not possible that he outdmg his heal. no matter how many luck is involved or not. and regarding your other answer, that luck is outbalancing over time, well that would be the exact same case if 2 zerkers jump on each other.

Seems like it boils down mainly to two types of preference.

One is a Mortal Kombat style, you have a basic set of rotations and the action is about executing those with very slight variations for timing. Landing a good one is an auto win.

The other is a Street Fighter style, where you still have combos; but landing one doesn’t mean game over. It puts you in a great position, but by no means is it an auto win.

So there ya go.. maybe this should turn into a poll…..

This thread makes no sense at all.

If you make two players running the same spec to face each other, yes, it’s obvious that the more defensive that spec is, the better for the best of both players (since the loser will be decided by accumulating a higher amount of mistakes than when using an offensive spec).

This has nothing to do, however, with “good” players prefering defensive gear.
A single duel between mirrored characters that can kill AND can’t run from each other is something completely unrealistic.
Any real scenario is far more complex than this and can perfectly cause the opposite to be true.

hooma.9642:

how about math and not skill? a bunker cant kill a bunker cause missing skill, no cause its mathematical not possible that he outdmg his heal. no matter how many luck is involved or not.

def setup does not mean full bunker. Soldier amulet is quite defensive but it’s not unkillable (even not in a 1on1) and you also can kill stuff with soldier (just takes longer than with berzerker).

hooma.9642:

and regarding your other answer, that luck is outbalancing over time, well that would be the exact same case if 2 zerkers jump on each other.

Are you kidding me?
You wrote yourself: „luck is outbalancing over time“. Now guess what does a fight between 2 zerker players does not have a lot, compared to a fight between 2 soldier players.
Answer: Time!

Vargamonth.2047:

If you make two players running the same spec to face each other, yes, it’s obvious that the more defensive that spec is, the better for the best of both players (since the loser will be decided by accumulating a higher amount of mistakes than when using an offensive spec).

Has nothing to do with same spec – it’s just in generall more def = less luck involved.
This also means that in a fight between 1gc vs 1 def setup, there is less luck invovled than between 2gc but still more than in a fight between 2 def setup players.

Vargamonth.2047:

This has nothing to do, however, with “good” players prefering defensive gear.
A single duel between mirrored characters that can kill AND can’t run from each other is something completely unrealistic.

I understand that this thread is not easy to understand when you started playing with GW2 and all you did was point capture mode.
But in any scenario where you can’t just disengage and cap some other point —> called deathmatch, found in every other game and also in GW2 (2v2 tournaments —> if you leave the graveyard area you’re being disquallified), a fight where you have to stay in combat is nothing unrealistic at all.

And now I have something special for everyone saying that playing berzerker(off setup) has (almost) nothing to do with luck and everything is skill.

http://www.twitch.tv/phantaram/b/501216875?t=333m40s
[this is really not supposed to flame phantaram or something like this – I think he is one of the top players – this is just a too good example to let it pass though]

As you can see, the thief was at 80%+ hp cause he healed himself + mug heal. Phant is already saying that he is chanceless but he kills him and is not even 100% sure how:
“I’m so good, my phoenix got him I guess”
After the match he also says:
“my phoenix must have hit him perfectly”
“I got so lucky”

At everyone who is going to say „skill here skill there“ – just no. Phant admitts himself that he got extremly lucky. Throwing AoEs somewhere hoping they hit and crit etc is not skill.

Of course Xeph is not replying in ts/skype/mumble since he wrote pretty much the opposite in this thread not long ago saying that this makes no sense at all etc…
Even though this 1v1 is like a summary of this entire thread.

The luck there was in reference to the fact that phanta landed all those attacks while the thief was in stealth (even asked him myself); but whatever floats your boat man.

Anyways yet again, you twist things to try and justify your argument, there is no real point in this thread, I would rather you don’t use me as reference for any of your arguments.

Good Day :/

Hitting someone in stealth is lucky. More news at 10.

What do you think would have happened if both would have worn soldier in such a situation? Probably not 80→0% someone with 1-2 lucky hits.
That’s the difference.

this really only applies to thieves. with thieves whether you get hit by that big burst is sort of luck because you’re guessing when they will come out of stealth and can’t ever know for sure. against any class you can actually SEE it is not “luck” whether those hits land or not.

i mean if you are basing your play on hoping they don’t get crits then YOU’RE the one playing the “luck” game. You should just assume everything they do is going to crit and play accordingly.

Phantaram.1265:

Hitting someone in stealth is lucky. More news at 10.

Well, to be fair in that video you seem to be convinced you have lost the fight even before the thief went into stealth, so it had to be somewhat surprising for you to win that 1v1, stealth or no stealth.

Ceraldor.3160:

….
Are you kidding me?
You wrote yourself: „luck is outbalancing over time“. Now guess what does a fight between 2 zerker players does not have a lot, compared to a fight between 2 soldier players.
Answer: Time!
…

see, thats why this thead is complete waste of time. now u put YOUR words in my mouth. i was saying the amount of luck rises the longer the fight goes.

Sorry I thought you figured it already out that that statement makes no sense.

Phantaram.1265:

Hitting someone in stealth is lucky. More news at 10.

Coming up after the break; bunker vs bunker. Live.

Ceraldor.3160:

Sorry I thought you figured it already out that that statement makes no sense.

lol u realize that u have no idea about statistical approach or logic? i said amount not impact.

propability of luck > 0 < 1 * action * time => is always rising..

the impact of luck is depending on situation no matter if soldier vs soldier or zerk vs zerk.. the sitatuion creates the value of luck.

the only real true statement is that the impact of luck is SEEN faster on zerker vs zerker fights. but as others has already stated ONE FIGHT is no measurement. that is basic knowledge in statistic.

Yes but one fight is more saying when def setups fought against each other than berserker setups.
Just because 1 soldier fights takes like 3 times+ as long…