Guild Wars 2

Or fix the solo vs premade issue.

I’m tired of getting farmed on foefire by scrub cele premades only cuz we’re all soloers.

Yeah, remove the map that usually gets most votes. That would make so much sense.

The premade will win on any map against yolo’ers. No offense but this is the dumbest suggestion I’ve seen.

Premade has the biggest advantage there. Maybe matchmaking should just block this map to be voted when any premade bigger or equal to 3 is involved.

Laraley.7695:

Yeah, remove the map that usually gets most votes. That would make so much sense.

It gets the most votes for a reason.

1. It favours cele bunker comps

2. it’s a snowball map, as soon you kill 1-2 players it’s almost impossible to come back favouring bad premades over better players

3. Lord rush always awards at least no point loss, thx to our dumb ladder rules.

It’s not hard at all to understand.

Mrbig.8019:

Laraley.7695:

Yeah, remove the map that usually gets most votes. That would make so much sense.

It gets the most votes for a reason.

1. It favours cele bunker comps

2. it’s a snowball map, as soon you kill 1-2 players it’s almost impossible to come back favouring bad premades over better players

3. Lord rush always awards at least no point loss, thx to our dumb ladder rules.

It’s not hard at all to understand.

1. I vote for this map always no matter what I play and I’m sure some other do, too.

2. Have you played this map? Mid on this map is so big that it doesn’t even have to be capped the whole game. > Favouring thieves/fast classes who can backcap or uncap while other players focus on mid.

3. Possibly, complain about ladder, not map.

only if they take courtyard off of the map selection would I even have a twitch in the brain about this.

Warrior, guardian and Guardian bunkers on points are much harder to kill than light armor low hp eles.

Mrbig.8019:

Or fix the solo vs premade issue.

They already tried this. What happened is that new teams would get matched against top ESL teams because there were no other full premade teams teams in a queue at the time.

PVP forums always good for a laugh.

Laraley.7695:

Yeah, remove the map that usually gets most votes. That would make so much sense.

That’s not the point…foefire is a really snowball friendly map and bunker comps (Like usual celestial bs) have a big advantage there since it has the most easy to hold mid point of all maps paired with a really good map control potential (Aka you can see them from miles and rotate properly even before they engage) and premade on ts can easily do this vs uncoordinated pugs. If you face a premade there as a pug it’s almost a 100% loss…unless they’re total scrubs…but they have to be really REALLY bad to lose vs pugs on legacy. They just need to fix the matchmaking but looks like they can’t.

Btw if you had just a little pvp experience you would have known what he was talking about…but clearly you haven’t

remove skyhammer lol

Archaon.9524:

Laraley.7695:

Yeah, remove the map that usually gets most votes. That would make so much sense.

That’s not the point…foefire is a really snowball friendly map and bunker comps (Like usual celestial bs) have a big advantage there since it has the most easy to hold mid point of all maps paired with a really good map control potential (Aka you can see them from miles and rotate properly even before they engage) and premade on ts can easily do this vs uncoordinated pugs. If you face a premade there as a pug it’s almost a 100% loss…unless they’re total scrubs…but they have to be really REALLY bad to lose vs pugs on legacy. They just need to fix the matchmaking but looks like they can’t.

Btw if you had just a little pvp experience you would have known what he was talking about…but clearly you haven’t

Lol. I’m sorry if someone is going to ask for removing a map just because matchmaking is broken, that doesn’t make a sense to me. It still doesn’t change the fact the map is liked and it’s not only because of what people play. I do agree it favours comps with bunkers but really? Removing a map because it’s difficult to face premades as a pug? Do you really not see the problem there? How about we remove all the maps because as a pug team it’s too hard to fight a really good premade?

One map makes it harder for a pug vs premade and people want to remove it. Instead of actually thinking and figuring out…hey, maybe it’s not a good idea to put pugs vs premade.

All conquest maps favor bunker spec .

Laraley.7695:

Archaon.9524:

Laraley.7695:

Yeah, remove the map that usually gets most votes. That would make so much sense.

That’s not the point…foefire is a really snowball friendly map and bunker comps (Like usual celestial bs) have a big advantage there since it has the most easy to hold mid point of all maps paired with a really good map control potential (Aka you can see them from miles and rotate properly even before they engage) and premade on ts can easily do this vs uncoordinated pugs. If you face a premade there as a pug it’s almost a 100% loss…unless they’re total scrubs…but they have to be really REALLY bad to lose vs pugs on legacy. They just need to fix the matchmaking but looks like they can’t.

Btw if you had just a little pvp experience you would have known what he was talking about…but clearly you haven’t

Lol. I’m sorry if someone is going to ask for removing a map just because matchmaking is broken, that doesn’t make a sense to me. It still doesn’t change the fact the map is liked and it’s not only because of what people play. I do agree it favours comps with bunkers but really? Removing a map because it’s difficult to face premades as a pug? Do you really not see the problem there? How about we remove all the maps because as a pug team it’s too hard to fight a really good premade?

One map makes it harder for a pug vs premade and people want to remove it. Instead of actually thinking and figuring out…hey, maybe it’s not a good idea to put pugs vs premade.

we actually waited forever to fix matchmaking when it comes to pugs vs premades…and it’s kinda clear they just can’t

I’m kinda curious, how similar are the numbers from unranked and the numbers from ranked?

Those are actually really small differences and I am pleasantly surprised at how close games are on average apparently. It does show that courtyard, and to a lesser extent foefire are outliers compared to the other maps. Also why no data on Nifhel?

Oh, then I take everything back. Those seemed way to low to really be the average differences between the winning and losing scores. I was honestly doubting the data, but didn’t really have a way to confirm other than personal experience so was just surprised.

Justin ODell.9517:

ArthurDent.9538:

Those are actually really small differences and I am pleasantly surprised at how close games are on average apparently. It does show that courtyard, and to a lesser extent foefire are outliers compared to the other maps. Also why no data on Nifhel?

The data is relative to Forest, and not actual numbers. We can be picky about which data should be shared, so I thought relative data would be safer to share w/o asking first. :P

thank you so much for sharing, means a lot, its really interesting, i know companies are really tight lipped about this stuff, but its just so interesting

no sarcasm in this post at all, pls dont read sarcasm here

I really want to remove map voting. It is getting boring playing foefire every match. Make it random again.

style.6173:

I really want to remove map voting. It is getting boring playing foefire every match. Make it random again.

Mhh isnt it still random? I thought the voting only decides the probabilities.

I’m actually surprised Spirit Watch fares so well, since I’m relatively new to PvP most of the teams I ended up in completely disregarded capping, uncapping and holding points in favour of only pursuing the secondary objective.

I guess I kinda assumed everyone was having bad matches on that map…

Justin ODell.9517:

Just dropping off some data.

Maps in order of mean difference between team scores in the last week of unranked arena.

1. Forest of Niflhel
2. Battle of Kyhlo +36
3. Spirit Watch +40
4. Temple of the Silent Storm +42
5. Skyhammer +44
6. Legacy of the Foefire +72
7. Courtyard +124

This is actually proving my point.

Could we have ranked arena data, cuz it’s what i’m referring to.

Justin ODell.9517:

Mrbig.8019:

This is actually proving my point.

I wouldn’t necessarly jump to that conclusion. The data could also be explained by the unique lord mechanic which can add 150 to your team’s score. Unfortunately I have no data on how often that happens.

Just watch an ESL stream and you’ll realize that.

When teams of different caliber face each other, Khylo/niflhlel/temple are WAAYYY more balanced than Foefire matches.

We’re not talking about “equal skill” ( since it’s something current matchmaking really doesn’t provide) but about “certain maps favouring premades”.

Courtyard is king there, when being on ts awards victory almost 100% of times, whereas foefire just follows right after due to how “snowballing” that map is.

This leaves us with 2 things:

1 Fix/remove the map

2 Fix matchamking

Muchacho.2390:

style.6173:

I really want to remove map voting. It is getting boring playing foefire every match. Make it random again.

Mhh isnt it still random? I thought the voting only decides the probabilities.

I think you are confusing random and probabilities. Random = equal chance for all maps. Probabilities = if 7 people vote for foefire, then it has a 70% chance to come up (if everyone votes).

What is happening is that people keep voting for foefire. It is a great map, but I don’t want to ONLY play on that map. Random would be better.

They’re picking foefire because they want nothing to do with the other maps. Random may be better for you, but it’s certainly not better for the people choosing foefire every match. Until they have actual good maps to choose from, I’ll stick to voting foefire, tyvm.

Conquest is annoying enough, but then they add those lame secondary mechanics that all but decide the game. It makes soloqueing even more frustrating. When you got a full team on teamspeak counting down the seconds until tranquility is up, while only one person on the soloque team realizes, only to be ignored by the rest of the team because they’re too busy to read chat.

While foefires lord may give a ton of points, it’s easy to defend, and is more often attempted by losing teams that hit 350points but are still behind.

Justin ODell.9517:

Just dropping off some data.

Maps in order of mean difference between team scores in the last week of unranked arena.

1. Forest of Niflhel
2. Battle of Kyhlo +36
3. Spirit Watch +40
4. Temple of the Silent Storm +42
5. Skyhammer +44
6. Legacy of the Foefire +72
7. Courtyard +124

well all know courtyard it’s just a reterded spam friendly snowball “map”…no need to look at numbers anyway, but since it’s only unranked like bshammer and lamewatch it’s fine i guess…it may be, not for me but i dunno, fun to play there once in a while in unranked, in ranked legacy is easily the one with higher score difference for the reasons stated above (Forest has bosses too for bonus points but it’s not even nearly as unbalanced as foefire when it comes to premades on ts vs pugs) And i’m usually the one on the 3q to premade side.

Justin you should target your query to matches where there are MMR outliers of some kind. 5 v 4+1 in the top quartile of players for example.

What the heck are you even arguing about in this thread? Foefire will stay, it is one of the most demanded maps in every pick-up because it is good and just because the premades take bigger advantage on this map than solo players does not mean this map should be removed, the issue lies somewhere absolutely else and i am even surprised a dev came in to respond to such an irrelevant requirement from a maker of this thread.

The game has only 4 normal playable competitive maps and you wanna make it 3 because of completely different issue with lack of solo arena and bad matchmaking. thread /close

Justin ODell.9517:

Mrbig.8019:

This is actually proving my point.

I wouldn’t necessarly jump to that conclusion. The data could also be explained by the unique lord mechanic which can add 150 to your team’s score. Unfortunately I have no data on how often that happens.

That was my first thought too. Lord ganks can turn a narrow loss into a 100+ point win, so it’s reasonable to attribute it to that.

You can certainly argue that premades have an advantage there because they can coordinate the lord gank better, converging on the enemy base from all over the map. It’s tenable. Maybe PART of the larger point-delta is attributable to that, but certainly not all of it. And even if it is, surely that’s good design? This is a team game, and good teamwork and communications should be rewarded. If they’re being rewarded more highly on this map, doesn’t it make it a better-designed map than all the others?

style.6173:

Muchacho.2390:

style.6173:

I really want to remove map voting. It is getting boring playing foefire every match. Make it random again.

Mhh isnt it still random? I thought the voting only decides the probabilities.

I think you are confusing random and probabilities. Random = equal chance for all maps. Probabilities = if 7 people vote for foefire, then it has a 70% chance to come up (if everyone votes).

Actually you dont seem to understand what random means…

Generally you speak of “random” if an event is not predetermined. So an (random) event that is uniformly distributed (equal chance) is as much random as one that has weighted probabilites (e.g. the ones you get though the voting system).

Maylo.5892:

What the heck are you even arguing about in this thread? Foefire will stay, it is one of the most demanded maps in every pick-up because it is good and just because the premades take bigger advantage on this map than solo players does not mean this map should be removed, the issue lies somewhere absolutely else and i am even surprised a dev came in to respond to such an irrelevant requirement from a maker of this thread.

The game has only 4 normal playable competitive maps and you wanna make it 3 because of completely different issue with lack of solo arena and bad matchmaking. thread /close

I would argue more about the fact that it is the most interesting map along with Temple BUT so boring at the same time.

From a watcher PoV, Foefire is totally boring: first wipe = GG.

I would totally redesign the map, even more knowing red side has a ridicolous advantage due to point shape ( aside the little and not really relevant jump puzzle blu point has to go to mid).

Justin ODell.9517:

Mrbig.8019:

This is actually proving my point.

I wouldn’t necessarly jump to that conclusion. The data could also be explained by the unique lord mechanic which can add 150 to your team’s score. Unfortunately I have no data on how often that happens.

Exactly….a semingly even match (both team right around 350) and BAM someone gets a lord kill. A perfect 50/50 matchup just made a 150 point spread win. Most maps you loose by 150 you say “Wow that was an uneven match”. This map when it happens, most just say “Poop, they killed the Lord, we should have rushed theirs”; and you don’t even think twice that it was uneven matchup when it was 350-350 right before that (plus or minus a little).

also we have all been in matches in foefire where one team is just winning so HARD they go lord for the heck of it making the end outcome something like 200-600, i’m sure that also screws datas up somewhat.

Remove all maps except khylo. Remove treb from khylo. Done. Esports. Endgame.

Justin ODell.9517:

Just dropping off some data.

Maps in order of mean difference between team scores in the last week of unranked arena.

1. Forest of Niflhel
2. Battle of Kyhlo +36
3. Spirit Watch +40
4. Temple of the Silent Storm +42
5. Skyhammer +44
6. Legacy of the Foefire +72
7. Courtyard +124

Sorry to bother, but can someone explain a bit simpler what those numbers mean? Ive hit the language barrier with math terms and would like to check if i understand it corectly:

-On total, the closest scores happen on forest.
-Example, the average is 350-500, meaning 150pts is the base value for the difference.
-Kylo is “2nd most balanced map”
-there the games end on average with a (150)+36=186 pts difference aka 314-500.
-
-and so on till courtyard, where theres the biggest difference aka the map snowballs.

Flumek.9043:

Justin ODell.9517:

Just dropping off some data.

Maps in order of mean difference between team scores in the last week of unranked arena.

1. Forest of Niflhel
2. Battle of Kyhlo +36
3. Spirit Watch +40
4. Temple of the Silent Storm +42
5. Skyhammer +44
6. Legacy of the Foefire +72
7. Courtyard +124

Sorry to bother, but can someone explain a bit simpler what those numbers mean? Ive hit the language barrier with math terms and would like to check if i understand it corectly:

-On total, the closest scores happen on forest.
-Example, the average is 350-500, meaning 150pts is the base value for the difference.
-Kylo is “2nd most balanced map”
-there the games end on average with a (150)+36=186 pts difference aka 314-500.
-
-and so on till courtyard, where theres the biggest difference aka the map snowballs.

you got it

The talk is big but nothing happens. Still fighting full premades while im yolo Q’ing.

glock.6590:

The talk is big but nothing happens. Still fighting full premades while im yolo Q’ing.

Rome wasn’t build in one day.

rotten.9753:

glock.6590:

The talk is big but nothing happens. Still fighting full premades while im yolo Q’ing.

Rome wasn’t build in one day.

Building Rome was also IRL… not in a digital landscape that you can play God with.

Solstice.1097:

rotten.9753:

glock.6590:

The talk is big but nothing happens. Still fighting full premades while im yolo Q’ing.

Rome wasn’t build in one day.

Building Rome was also IRL… not in a digital landscape that you can play God with.

they say god didnt do his thang in a day either

Justin ODell.9517:

Shockwave.1230:

Justin you should target your query to matches where there are MMR outliers of some kind. 5 v 4+1 in the top quartile of players for example.

I enjoy advice like this. I wrote a ladder sim a week or so ago that basically replays the season with different rules. I’ve also found it a very handy, and faster, way to get stats out of the data. Been adding all sorts of reports to it as I get time.

I don’t know what the data is saying, but there are probably identifiable tiers in it. I’d imagine at different tiers there are different outliers that create lopsided matches. The more of those you can isolate the more 1-offs you can try to plug into the matchmaking algorithm to improve how competitive matches are.

As the playerbase improves over time outliers at lower tiers become less important, whereas outliers at higher tiers become more important to minimize. However with an upcoming expansion on the horizon, lower tier outliers will be important to resolve until the influx of new players slows.

These are just my thoughts, I’ve never tested or implemented a matchmaking system before (unless you consider playing them in live games such), so they are thoughts without experience.

insanemaniac.2456:

Solstice.1097:

rotten.9753:

glock.6590:

The talk is big but nothing happens. Still fighting full premades while im yolo Q’ing.

Rome wasn’t build in one day.

Building Rome was also IRL… not in a digital landscape that you can play God with.

they say god didnt do his thang in a day either

more than 2 years looks like enough to me for god to fix kittening matchmaking tho

Maybe I’m a minority, but I hate Foefire too. Only because of how far the points are from each other

Warcry.1596:

Maybe I’m a minority, but I hate Foefire too. Only because of how far the points are from each other

I assume you mean the side nodes, the distance between side and mid is much smaller than forest.
And I like to think that the importance of the mid-point in this map is great since it forces a different playstyle to other maps.