Guild Wars 2

The amount of pressure one does while downed is unreal. Mesmer is at least twice as strong than any other profession while downed.

you had me at “remove phantasms”. why limit this to just the downed state?

ezmode AI chucking is easy

Just wondering what happens to other “summons?” Like necromancer minions or spirit weapons? Do they persist? If they do, then for the sake of consistency they’d have to do the same for other professions.

I’d like to see any kind of summon, except ranger’s pet, stop attacking the moment the controller is downed, not de-summoned, so if the he does get back up he’ll still have them. Of course this is often the case for necro’s already, since the minion AI is some of the worst I’ve seen for a very long time.

Mesmers 2 and 3 buttons whilst downed both summon clone/phantasm, so what would be the point of those? :p

AI attacks must be freezed when his owner is downed. It’s very unfair that some players lose the 90% of their damage while downed and others (usually with better downed tools) not.

I always figured that illusions are something that the Mesmer is actively keeping up with his umm magic and brainpower. Necro and Rangers have actual (un)living creatures that they use.

So it makes sense to me if illusions are removed when Downed as the mesmer is now struggling just to keep himself from bleeding to death. Then again they can actually summon another phantasm in downed as their #3 so..There’s arguments to both.

The mesmers #1 skill is mediocre compared to others even with the confusion as it is not consistent damage (only works if they are actively using a skill). So no…doubt this would ever happen.

Also…the phantasms have a delay in attacking. Does a rangers pet have a delay…does any other class have a delay (5s delay)?

I just don’t understand these kinds of posts. If you are tanky, the phantasms don’t deal large damage, if you are glass cannon just 3-hit them if they are giving you problems. I don’t remember any situation where I downed a mesmer and he had all his illusions still up to harass me.

IF he was smart he is shattering them left and right

Zachariel.5463:

The mesmers #1 skill is mediocre compared to others even with the confusion as it is not consistent damage (only works if they are actively using a skill). So no…doubt this would ever happen.

Also…the phantasms have a delay in attacking. Does a rangers pet have a delay…does any other class have a delay (5s delay)?

does rangers pet or necros minions do 4k per attack and can be casted through walls?

on topic) I disagree, but those phantasms need a bit balancing overall (last patch was joke)

By the way, I was under the impression that the downed mesmer produces new illusions from their auto-attack while downed. Is that right?

ChillyChinaman.6057:

Just wondering what happens to other “summons?” Like necromancer minions or spirit weapons? Do they persist? If they do, then for the sake of consistency they’d have to do the same for other professions.

Necros’ pets persist and should attack but often they are buggy and just stand around doing nothing.

However, comparing mesmers’ illusions etc to necros’ minions isn’t quite right. First of all the mesmer stuff is mostly produced by weapons and stays also after getting the mesmer to downed state. A necro on the other hand has to sacrifice precious utility slots to get the minions. Also once those minions die you cannot replace them easily. The lowest cd is 20 seconds. See the difference?

Regardless of that a mesmer phantasm seems to have more dps than the elite necro minion (assuming that it does for once what it should), is like a heatseeker missile, can be cast through walls, appears next to the target Mesmers’ stuff stays when they get moa morphed…necro pets vanish etc. T

he best thing of the flesh golem is the charge ability – which sometimes doesn’t trigger probably as well (oh noes, there was a tiny pebble…too bad Mr. Necro).

milo.6942:

I just don’t understand these kinds of posts. If you are tanky, the phantasms don’t deal large damage, if you are glass cannon just 3-hit them if they are giving you problems. I don’t remember any situation where I downed a mesmer and he had all his illusions still up to harass me.

1. Shatter wants a word with you
2. If he is specced into phantasms etc you will load yourself with a kittenload of conditions when you destroy them

Oh…and the mesmer can do stuff as well. I know, for a mesmer a total new concept that their characters can participate actively in fight as well, but really, trust me, your character can act, too and isn’t restricted to sit behind a wall, rock or pillar and spam the illusions etc away.

Asmodean.5820:

Shatter wants a word with you

Exactly my point. Once they shatter they’ve got nothing.

Asmodean — a mesmer’s downed state only contains one illusion generating power, and that’s phantasmal thief. That’s their three button. It only comes into play if they can survive their downed time for, what is it, five or six seconds? Beyond that, mesmer downed powers are pretty meh. The cloak and teleport is useful, but players have become pretty savvy to which one is the real mesmer, so it’s not really a saving grace any more.

that said, glass cannon phantasms do pretty good damage, but you probably shouldn’t be leaving their phantasms alone once you’ve downed the mesmer.

First open your eyes : Ranger and necro pets dont die at first breeze, they dont die when ennemy dies, they dont stand there doing nothing when the ennemy runs “a little” away (1200 range?) but they follow your ennemy no matter what, and they attack more frequently than once every 6 seconds.
Also they bring utility + dmg while mesmer pets are mostly to confuse you so u dont hit us .. and alternatively shatter food which indeed is a tradeoff since u suddently lose your “deceptive trick”.

Second and for your information,when your ennemy is downed he is NOT dead !!! omg look !!! he even attacks you and uses skills, albeit different ones.

Mesmer phantasm damage is far from being uber … thats why it was not nerfed they increased the cooldown to please the masses, but it does not change anything except that now you have to wait 2-4s more before spawning new batch of phantasms.
In the end, the nerf just pushed further the phantasm-build mesmers into the hide and spam that every new player was complaining “omg i cant see the real one and i die to kitten phantasms”

Finally and another L2P : I wish they would crit for 4k but its not the case when u see a 4k pop above your head (or ennemy its the same) its usually – except rogues – not due to a single attack but its the addition of all damage that occured in a short timeframe.
ie, mesmer hit for 4k every attack ? no no … phantasms + mesmer dmg = 4k yes indeed, and once every 6s for the phantasms contribution to overall dmg.
Hint: If you kill the phantasms as they pop up (direct dmg or random aoe) then no more phantasm for 15sec.. So kitten op

Uhhmm well, i do agree with OP but more general, summoned pets should disappear when the owner goes in downstate. In my opinion downed state is an great addition to the game and i dont mind it..
but what i do think is you need to get as close to balanced
that if 2 people down at the same time, the difference in damage and survival they do should be almost the same. It shouldnt be that an summoned pet yust takes half someones downed state.. 1v1ing an enemy while downed and then get downed while the other guy still had 90% of his downed health left. not remotely fair

Well, at least elementalist doesnt have any downed state people can whine about hehe….. well.. that actually quite sad.. sigh…

CeCaKonVeu.5734:

First open your eyes : Ranger and necro pets dont die at first breeze, they dont die when ennemy dies, they dont stand there doing nothing when the ennemy runs “a little” away (1200 range?) but they follow your ennemy no matter what, and they attack more frequently than once every 6 seconds.
Also they bring utility + dmg while mesmer pets are mostly to confuse you so u dont hit us .. and alternatively shatter food which indeed is a tradeoff since u suddently lose your “deceptive trick”.

It is so obvious that you don’t play a necro or do am I and the rest of the community suffering from mass hallucinations of pets not attacking? Also, if they attack jump from an obstacle or whatever and they will take the loooong way around it. Now, that’s hard, eh?

Secondly, the minions use up valuable support skill slots, mesmers’ don’t. Now compare the utilities a mesmer can pick and put on his bar and the ones the minions bring along.

Thirdly, the minions die pretty easily to aoe unless you boost them with flesh of the master but even then it is not great and when a minion dies…minimum: 20 sec cd plus cast time.

But yes, go on and tell us how great necro minions are. I mean we all see those minion specced necros rock the battlefields…oh wait…

Conditions are removed on down. Boons stay. Just saying.

where did the big bad mesmer touch you?

minions use skills slots, so do our images /decoys etc , ur not special, in fact, you are better off since you actually GET extra skills on your weapons, we get a lot of drumroll illusion summoning skills on our weapons, thats why they dont take as much support skills slots as your minions do on your necro

its called balance, also, the argument is pretty stupid given i can spawn 2 illusions the second im downed anyways with my downed abilities , your conditions on me dont go away when you are downed why should my illusions die when im downed?

all im saying is , illusions cant interrupt you unless i shatter…something wich i CANNOT do when im downed

ChillyChinaman.6057 You are so looking at this the wrong way… The reason these illusions is making it so hard while their downed is not the number of “things” damaging you, It’s the fact that you may have to use your finished 3-4 times because you can’t tell which one’s the real one in the confusion of seing more than one player added with the fact that the actual player moves around.

Amarth.2678:

ChillyChinaman.6057 You are so looking at this the wrong way… The reason these illusions is making it so hard while their downed is not the number of “things” damaging you, It’s the fact that you may have to use your finished 3-4 times because you can’t tell which one’s the real one in the confusion of seing more than one player added with the fact that the actual player moves around.

This is an example of a post from someone who has no idea what is going on in a fight. You couldn’t have tried using your finisher 3 times because the mesmer can only make 1 downed clone. Also a tip: the real mesmer is the one with a red downed arrow above his head.

milo.6942:

This is an example of a post from someone who has no idea what is going on in a fight. You couldn’t have tried using your finisher 3 times because the mesmer can only make 1 downed clone. Also a tip: the real mesmer is the one with a red downed arrow above his head.

The tip isn’t true as the arrow is above BOTH the clone and the mesmers head. The one that spawns second is the mesmer.

And the rogue is silly. Mesmers who think that is staying at it’s current damage rate are living in lala land. :P

Hsulf.9370:

The tip isn’t true as the arrow is above BOTH the clone and the mesmers head.

That’s incorrect. Only the real mesmer has the giant red down arrow. The clone does not. It’s really surprising how many people don’t understand mesmer downed state.

milo.6942:

Hsulf.9370:

The tip isn’t true as the arrow is above BOTH the clone and the mesmers head.

That’s incorrect. Only the real mesmer has the giant red down arrow. The clone does not.

We’re bothing kitten ing into a bucket here, but I can say both have the arrow. No point in arguing, just go test it and stop writing silly responses to something you obviously have no idea about :P

And do you seriously think if one mesmer has an arrow, and the other doesn’t people will down the one without an arrow? Another lala land comment.

Both mesmer and clone have the arrow.

It’s suprising how many mesmers don’t understand their own downed state.

Spoiler:

1/ Stomp the mesmer fast to force him use his #2 skill (clone + stealth)
2/ Never ever switch target (be careful autotarget option need to be off)
3/ Just wait/healup/los illusions until you see the real mesmer pop out of stealth
4/ Stomp him for good before his #3 skill gets out of cd (phantasm rogue)

The Red Arrow will always stay on the real mesmer and only the real mesmer will have it …. IF you dont randomly switch target !

And basically Stomping fast is the key to deal with downed state against ALL classes.

Stomp fast to force them use their #2 so their #3 wont get off cd before you stomp again.

CeCaKonVeu.5734:

The Red Arrow will always stay on the real mesmer and only the real mesmer will have it …. IF you dont randomly switch target !

And basically Stomping fast is the key to deal with downed state against ALL classes.

Stomp fast to force them use their #2 so their #3 wont get off cd before you stomp again.

Goes back to my quote regarding mesmers not knowing their own downed state. Or how to use stability. Or other classes downed state. Think I should just leave this quote here.

TIPS OF THE DAY :
Real mesmar is the one with no arrow when he dies.
The clone is marked with arrow since everyone on forums was whining that its hard to find real mesmar
The clone will attack you with very week blue looking skill that is being chanalled

Seriously .. i was about to write i would fraps and post on utube in the evening when back from work …

But I give up … Keep stomping my clones its hilarious

Edit: i guess you dont even know whats that red arrow we’re talking about

He’s got no idea what we’re talking about. I’m trying to find a mesmer to fight so I can take a screenshot.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=45-5TKNwkm4

7:56 -

Mesmer ports behind him – the first one IS THE CLONE WITH AN ARROW ON HIS HEAD.

After he mist forms for a couple of seconds you see 2X arrows over 2x mesmers.

The mesmer is the one that spawns second.

Apologies moderator, but it is worth teaching mesmers how their downed state works so they don’t have to grief people telling them what actually happens.

Yes there are 2 arrows because he autotarget on the clone lol

Exactly what we trying to explain you
This just shows a failed elem, losing its target every mesmer trick, because he has autotarget option turned on, so it always switch target automatically to closest target, ie clones.

Dont target the clone, turn off autotarget and wait for real mesmer. Try it once.

Here, I went into spvp just for you.
http://imgur.com/a/63j7A
A mesmer was downed and then teled, leaving the clone next to me (no down arrow), while the real mesmer was further away (down arrow).

Look, I’m trying to explain how this works. Please provide me with a video regarding your “auto attack” theory then I will believe you.

However, I 100% without trawling through hours of youtube clips know for a fact both mesmer and clone spawn with an arrow on their head. It’s just fact.

@milo please have a watch of the video i just posted. It shows the same scenario but with more clarity.

And the img posted actually doesn’t prove anything as you never downed the mesmer…or was it the clone.

Let’s try and keep this civl and it’s at least decent education.

Yes I saw the video and it does seem like both have something red above their heads but it’s impossible to see clearly. I think my screenshot is better because shows what I’m talking about plain as day. Go into spvp until you find a mesmer, down him and you will see that it’s not true that the clone has a down arrow. Many people are misinformed about mesmer downed state and your posts aren’t helping.

edit: you are right I didn’t think to take a screenshot after I stomped him, however it does clearly show that only 1 of the 2 “gillians” has the arrow.

I think in all honestly it could be a bug, or maybe the devs meant it to be like this.

I have seen it when mesmer and clone both have mark, and I have seen it that mesmer has mark and clone does not. I’m also pretty sure I’ve seen mesmer not have mark and clone does, strangely enough.

I’d need more evidence of Cekacon’s theory that it’s correct before agreeing, but I play without auto target and I have no reason to target the mesmer after he ports.

Also another bit of evidence against Ceka is everyone sees the same arrows over the mesmer/clone. Everyone runs to the red arrow and stomps, and sometimes it’s not the real mesmer. This discounts the theory that it’s auto attacking on a personal player by player basis.

All I was trying to get at with the original issue is that it’s not always the red arrow over the head of the mesmer shows the real mesmer. Next time people quote that we should quote this thread in order to show it’s a tad more complicated than that.

One thing that is 100% certain, the mesmer always spawns second.

There are two types of arrows:
TARGET – the arrow that appears above your target. It’s not very large. Appears over anything you target, including clones.
DOWNED – the arrow that appears above a downed player. Larger, more detailed. Appears only above players, not clones, no targeting required.
The mesmer will always spawn second, often spawn further back from the clone, behind the clone’s back (when you see the clone spawn, look in the direction his back is turned for the real one to appear). The mesmer will always have the arrow above his head, the clone never will.
I can imagine anet changing this, but I’m not counting on it.

The Boz.2038:

There are two types of arrows:
DOWNED – the arrow that appears above a downed player. Larger, more detailed. Appears only above players, not clones, no targeting required.

You’re kind of diluting the last 20 minutes of conversation with stuff that isn’t correct. Please have a read of the last 10 posts and watch the video.

You even have mesmers saying there are arrows over both clones and the real mesmer (whilst downed).

Grr.

I’m not diluting anything. People are wrong. I am just writing what I know to be true. I have never seen a clone with a DOWNED arrow above his head, and I’ve never seen a mesmer without one. People are probably confused about the TARGET/DOWNED arrows.

Hsulf, I have been paying attention to mesmer downed state while I fight for weeks now. It’s never been the case for me that the clone had a down arrow, or that the real mesmer didn’t have one. Not once. I think it’s misleading to all those reading that you continue to act as if there was some kind of controversy or widespread bug on this issue, when there’s not.

On a slightly more embarrassing note, after the screens I posted I actually stomped the clone next to him because I had not properly targeted the real mesmer. It could be that some small amount of confusion on this issue is due to targeting issues like the one I just had.

@the box and @milo

Watch the video I posted. You will clearly see the following things.

7:40 – ele vs mesmer downed
7:47 – 52 – mesmer ports behind him, the first thing you see is a clone with a red arrow above his head. Ele uses mist form and you see two people lying down with 2 arrows on their heads.

I know it’s just out of the picture but without recreating it myself and posting it on youtube this is the best you’re going to get and it proves the point.

If you can dispute what actually happened in the video, then no worries go ahead. However, the video makes it clear of my point. And it was the first video I looked at in all fairness of an ele vs mesmer. I’m sure there’s lots more out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=45-5TKNwkm4

7:55 – I’d challenge any mesmer who believes it’s 1 arrow for the mesmer only to explain this in full detail how this mesmer has created the same red arrow for himself and his clone.

And Milo, you’re representing the information even more falsly than I am. If you can explain the above, great. Please do. At this moment in time, no mesmers have sufficiently tried to explain it without saying “YOU’RE WRONG DUDE 1 ARROW” when the video shows two.

And even Ceka has moved on to say there are two arrows, and he’s a mesmer.

That’s not the downed arrow. That’s what I’ve been trying to say.
BIG ARROW – DOWNED
SMALL ARROW – TARGET

7:50 shows a downed arrow, as well as a small targetting arrow, over the clones head.

This post has been edited to remove a violation of the forum code of conduct.

I can confirm that, the arrow on the clone is the targeting arrow, if the ele did just press esc (or closed his target) then you would just see the downed arrow on the real mesmer.

You can even see that he was targeting the clone from the red circle below him.

There are several shots where both the ele and the mesmer are downed. The ele has a downed arrow, and there is a clone visible with a target arrow. Great moment to compare the two. I think it’s at 7:53 or something, can’t be bothered to hunt it again now.

GJ obviating 47 posts of discussion. Threads are organic.