Guild Wars 2

Sorry for my terrible english but lets talk about not-perma-vigor first
steal 13 sec vigor (21 sec cd) ,6 seconds from thier instacasting-evade healing skill(15 sec cd) = 19 not even close to permament right ?
everyone know about thier trait for endurance return after dodge + signet = they can dodgerolling whole day.
They jump on thier targets through walls with steal , infiltrator strike hit and back , hit and back , u even dont have a chance to hit them with thier buffed initiative regeneration they are just spam it.
Just look at this 2 hits how i suppose to kill him after that? just instant 2 hits

Firstly I’m not sure what you’re complaining about as I have seen you beat thieves quite often in the dueling servers

By the looks of it in the first picture you were low on health, and got an unlucky rng air and fire.

I think the thing is, in tournaments you can’t take Mantra of Distraction to interrupt them.

This meta is joke its all about who can proc and stack the most, perma vigor classes with energy sigils random dodging around, warrs playing bunkers while bursting you down with 20 mightstacks and intelligence sigils…
Just yesterday i wanted to burst down low health guy in tournie so i jump in deathshroud to fear him and spam some life blasts but my fear procced chill of death for 4k which procced air and fire sigils for another 3 k so basicly my instafear hit him for 7k… i hate this BS but lets be honest abusing random procs is the most effective way to pvp atm

Benjamin.8237:

Firstly I’m not sure what you’re complaining about as I have seen you beat thieves quite often in the dueling servers

By the looks of it in the first picture you were low on health, and got an unlucky rng air and fire.

I think the thing is, in tournaments you can’t take Mantra of Distraction to interrupt them.

mesmer dont have a chance against even average s/d thief
there is no walls , to abuse this **** with infilt strike
example how u can die instantly
they use venom, flank before → gain larc strike , use larc strike and then instantly STEAL which doesnt interrupt thier larc and they have time to hit u once more thier 1
well , 2200 steal , 4000+ larc, 2 procs for 3k both and 2k auto + 12 sec poison which dont let u heal after
they even just can spam 1 2 , jump from sword on u with infiltrator strike (2k damage) and auto(2k first two and 3k last in chain) because of 1 second immobilize which mean u cannot dodge, thier initiative buff allowed them to SPAM it
non duel situation : They jump on thier targets through walls with steal , infiltrator strike hit and back , hit and back as i said
lets talk abit about shatters , i use mind wrack for example , he using inf strike from range, he jump on mesmer ,hit and back , clones run around and they got bored and exploded before they are reach him on halfway , when ranger pets follow u around 3000 range i guess , this
new trait was nerfed on thieves i heard , like if he spam hs and got interrupted anyway he could spam it even after , its like most useless trait which in grandmaster trait lane and u must pay 3g and 20 skill points to unlock it

Odik.4587:

Sorry for my terrible english but lets talk about not-perma-vigor first
steal 13 sec vigor (21 sec cd) ,6 seconds from thier instacasting-evade healing skill(15 sec cd) = 19 not even close to permament right ?
everyone know about thier trait for endurance return after dodge + signet = they can dodgerolling whole day.
They jump on thier targets through walls with steal , infiltrator strike hit and back , hit and back , u even dont have a chance to hit them with thier buffed initiative regeneration they are just spam it.
Just look at this 2 hits how i suppose to kill him after that? just instant 2 hits
http://i.imgur.com/mq5hiVv.jpg (i dont know why its not working lol)
i cant go bow like they are and spam 3 till my distortion/stealth/heal up
Almost forgot about eles : 1 min of vigor
http://i.imgur.com/XZ6qYQd.jpg < really dont know what i did wrong

do people really complain about vigor? jesus

so you got unlucky and got crit’d with both sigils of air and fire procing on you. do you always throw your hands up and give up when you lose 3/7ths of your health or are you making a special case to whine about thieves? it seriously sounds like you have a bad case of “i got rolled pls nerf everything”

sinject.4607:

Odik.4587:

Sorry for my terrible english but lets talk about not-perma-vigor first
steal 13 sec vigor (21 sec cd) ,6 seconds from thier instacasting-evade healing skill(15 sec cd) = 19 not even close to permament right ?
everyone know about thier trait for endurance return after dodge + signet = they can dodgerolling whole day.
They jump on thier targets through walls with steal , infiltrator strike hit and back , hit and back , u even dont have a chance to hit them with thier buffed initiative regeneration they are just spam it.
Just look at this 2 hits how i suppose to kill him after that? just instant 2 hits
http://i.imgur.com/mq5hiVv.jpg (i dont know why its not working lol)
i cant go bow like they are and spam 3 till my distortion/stealth/heal up
Almost forgot about eles : 1 min of vigor
http://i.imgur.com/XZ6qYQd.jpg < really dont know what i did wrong

do people really complain about vigor? jesus

so you got unlucky and got crit’d with both sigils of air and fire procing on you. do you always throw your hands up and give up when you lose 3/7ths of your health or are you making a special case to whine about thieves? it seriously sounds like you have a bad case of “i got rolled pls nerf everything”

someone definitely playing s/d thief … who is this can be…
owaw , u suggest to remove vigor as boon with 3rd free dodge on thieves? me too then
lets give to mesmer 3rd dodge and perma vigor , why not ?

Odik.4587:

someone definitely playing s/d thief … who is this can be…
owaw , u suggest to remove vigor as boon with 3rd free dodge on thieves? me too then
lets give to mesmer 3rd dodge and perma vigor , why not ?

evasion is not this uncounterable 1-click perfect defense that you seem to think it is and complaining about it really shows what kind of player you are. whining about an s/d thief evading is like whining about a guardian’s aegis/blinds, a warrior’s endure pain/beserker stance, an engineer’s blocks/elixir s, a necro’s deathshroud, etc.

if you really want to talk about broken boon access let’s talk about PU mesmer. I’ll GLADLY trade vigor for protection/regen/aegis.

Odik.4587:

Just look at this 2 hits how i suppose to kill him after that? just instant 2 hits
http://i.imgur.com/mq5hiVv.jpg

In that image I see four hits.

1. Steal
2. Slice
3. Flame Blast
4. Lightning Strike

laquito.5269:

Leeto.1570:

laquito.5269:

Another whiny player. If I’ve learned one thing from these forums, it’s that thief – no matter what build currently is meta - will always be considered OP. It’s ridiculous.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Because thief no matter what spec or how weak in overall it is, have lots of broken and overpowered mechanics.
And as most of thief players are teen ninjas they have problems with critical thinking.
+other players cant even come with suggestions to solve these problems and improve thief overall cause then there comes this army of thiefs defending their class with some absurd offtopic arguments.

The behavior of non thief players complaining about thieves doesn’t promote critical thinking in first place, because they usually come up with arguments that are either not relevant to the strenght of said build, or , which is more often the case, whine about >class mechanics<.

Most of these posts are written by selfish, raging kids, whose intention isn’t even to improve or shape thief as a class, but merely to get them nerfed, because they’re unable or unwilling to adapt.

You’re sounding like ANet doesn’t ever touch thief specs, although we’re the class that probably gets shaped the most, based on whine posts like these. I don’t quite understand how you fail to see the pattern that is brought upon the class by these whine posts:
D/D Burst too strong —> Signet; Mug, CnD nerfed
S/D/Larcenous too strong --> Ini cost upped, Boonsteal reduced (Lyssa nerfed)
S/P overpowered —> Ini upped

Some of these nerfs were indeed necessary, but now you’re whining about something that has already been nerfed across the board. Thief sacrifices TWO traits for “perma” vigor, whereas other classes can easily have a high vigor uptime with one or nill.

Actually the only reason S/D Acro/Trick works is because of the Sigils (and Runes to a lesser extent) that offer enough damage to make up for CS, but this is a general “problem” (If u may say so), and now I ask you again: Why the kitten did OP explicitly state thieves in the topic, whereas the root problem holds truth for every class?

because thanks to sigil/runes buffs now teefs can build up all the cheese they have ( S/D evades, acro evades, daze on steal, perma vigor even after vigor nerf thanks to both vigorous recovery AND bountiful theft) in a single package while keeping high damage that before them wasn’t possible to achieve, making it the STRONGEST profession in game by far.

S/P was never Op in the first place, it was coutnerable and needed quite decent skill to be used effectively.

Now literally EVERY NAB can build his 2-0-0-6-6 teef and be a threat even greater than wars.

The problem is about thieves since they have the most broken mechanics in game: paired with sigils buffs they can just pack them in one package and faceroll.

Signed

Thief main.

Mrbig.8019:

laquito.5269:

Leeto.1570:

laquito.5269:

Another whiny player. If I’ve learned one thing from these forums, it’s that thief – no matter what build currently is meta - will always be considered OP. It’s ridiculous.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Because thief no matter what spec or how weak in overall it is, have lots of broken and overpowered mechanics.
And as most of thief players are teen ninjas they have problems with critical thinking.
+other players cant even come with suggestions to solve these problems and improve thief overall cause then there comes this army of thiefs defending their class with some absurd offtopic arguments.

The behavior of non thief players complaining about thieves doesn’t promote critical thinking in first place, because they usually come up with arguments that are either not relevant to the strenght of said build, or , which is more often the case, whine about >class mechanics<.

Most of these posts are written by selfish, raging kids, whose intention isn’t even to improve or shape thief as a class, but merely to get them nerfed, because they’re unable or unwilling to adapt.

You’re sounding like ANet doesn’t ever touch thief specs, although we’re the class that probably gets shaped the most, based on whine posts like these. I don’t quite understand how you fail to see the pattern that is brought upon the class by these whine posts:
D/D Burst too strong —> Signet; Mug, CnD nerfed
S/D/Larcenous too strong --> Ini cost upped, Boonsteal reduced (Lyssa nerfed)
S/P overpowered —> Ini upped

Some of these nerfs were indeed necessary, but now you’re whining about something that has already been nerfed across the board. Thief sacrifices TWO traits for “perma” vigor, whereas other classes can easily have a high vigor uptime with one or nill.

Actually the only reason S/D Acro/Trick works is because of the Sigils (and Runes to a lesser extent) that offer enough damage to make up for CS, but this is a general “problem” (If u may say so), and now I ask you again: Why the kitten did OP explicitly state thieves in the topic, whereas the root problem holds truth for every class?

because thanks to sigil/runes buffs now teefs can build up all the cheese they have ( S/D evades, acro evades, daze on steal, perma vigor even after vigor nerf thanks to both vigorous recovery AND bountiful theft) in a single package while keeping high damage that before them wasn’t possible to achieve, making it the STRONGEST profession in game by far.

S/P was never Op in the first place, it was coutnerable and needed quite decent skill to be used effectively.

Now literally EVERY NAB can build his 2-0-0-6-6 teef and be a threat even greater than wars.

The problem is about thieves since they have the most broken mechanics in game: paired with sigils buffs they can just pack them in one package and faceroll.

Signed

Thief main.

Totally agreed.

Thief main here too.

Mrbig.8019:

because thanks to sigil/runes buffs now teefs can build up all the cheese they have ( S/D evades, acro evades, daze on steal, perma vigor even after vigor nerf thanks to both vigorous recovery AND bountiful theft) in a single package while keeping high damage that before them wasn’t possible to achieve, making it the STRONGEST profession in game by far.

S/P was never Op in the first place, it was coutnerable and needed quite decent skill to be used effectively.

Now literally EVERY NAB can build his 2-0-0-6-6 teef and be a threat even greater than wars.

The problem is about thieves since they have the most broken mechanics in game: paired with sigils buffs they can just pack them in one package and faceroll.

Signed

Thief main.

Congratulations, you just proved my statement concerning the mentality of this forum. All I read is random whine about things being cheesy and overpowered without pointing out ways on how to fix them. I’m not sure if I can take you serious for stating S/P took more skill than S/D does. S/P meta was incredibly cheesy and faceroll. All you needed to do is port a bit and spam 3 while using shadowsteps to deliver your damage, all while being invul up to 75% of the time in melee range, it was a total nobrainer.

Sounds more like some of you don’t want to adapt to the new (Thief) meta. Nearly every class can go full defense/utility and still dish out amazing damage, this isn’t exclusive to thief. (Hi Hambow, D/D Ele, SotF Ranger etc.)

Hypocrites, hypocrites everywhere.

Yes fire and air is stupid. Without those procs you really don’t do enough damage.

I think maybe toning down trickery would help with the vigour uptime and general pressure of the thief(splitting sleight of hand into 2 traits, decreasing vigour uptime if you took the daze, and decreasing offense if you took the cooldown).

FeelsAlright.5860:

Yes fire and air is stupid. Without those procs you really don’t do enough damage. I think maybe toning down trickery would help (splitting sleight of hand into 2 traits, decreasing vigour uptime if you took the daze, and decreasing offense if you took the cooldown).

Err no!

FeelsAlright.5860:

Yes fire and air is stupid. Without those procs you really don’t do enough damage. I think maybe toning down trickery would help (splitting sleight of hand into 2 traits, decreasing vigour uptime if you took the daze, and decreasing offense if you took the cooldown).

Do people even read what they write? Let me outline your argumentation:

(Double) Sigil Procs are OP (for all classes) so lets nerf trickery (thief only). SERIOUSLY? :’D

laquito.5269:

Mrbig.8019:

because thanks to sigil/runes buffs now teefs can build up all the cheese they have ( S/D evades, acro evades, daze on steal, perma vigor even after vigor nerf thanks to both vigorous recovery AND bountiful theft) in a single package while keeping high damage that before them wasn’t possible to achieve, making it the STRONGEST profession in game by far.

S/P was never Op in the first place, it was coutnerable and needed quite decent skill to be used effectively.

Now literally EVERY NAB can build his 2-0-0-6-6 teef and be a threat even greater than wars.

The problem is about thieves since they have the most broken mechanics in game: paired with sigils buffs they can just pack them in one package and faceroll.

Signed

Thief main.

Congratulations, you just proved my statement concerning the mentality of this forum. All I read is random whine about things being cheesy and overpowered without pointing out ways on how to fix them. I’m not sure if I can take you serious for stating S/P took more skill than S/D does. S/P meta was incredibly cheesy and faceroll. All you needed to do is port a bit and spam 3 while using shadowsteps to deliver your damage, all while being invul up to 75% of the time in melee range, it was a total nobrainer.

Sounds more like some of you don’t want to adapt to the new (Thief) meta. Nearly every class can go full defense/utility and still dish out amazing damage, this isn’t exclusive to thief. (Hi Hambow, D/D Ele, SotF Ranger etc.)

Hypocrites, hypocrites everywhere.

Ways to fix them ?

There’s nothing to fix, this S/D build should never exist in the first place.

You want to fix the build ?

Remove air/fire proc and nerf strenght runes inot oblivion.

You just fixed not only S/D thief but also celestial ele ridicolous damage.

Problem solved.

laquito.5269:

FeelsAlright.5860:

Yes fire and air is stupid. Without those procs you really don’t do enough damage. I think maybe toning down trickery would help (splitting sleight of hand into 2 traits, decreasing vigour uptime if you took the daze, and decreasing offense if you took the cooldown).

Do people even read what they write? Let me outline your argumentation:

(Double) Sigil Procs are OP (for all classes) so lets nerf trickery (thief only). SERIOUSLY? :’D

It’s a seperate issue. Even before the double procs trickery was an issue. I was tlaking about the vigour uptime. I’ll edit my post so there’s a line break between the sentences to make it easier to understand for you.

Mrbig.8019:

Ways to fix them ?

There’s nothing to fix, this S/D build should never exist in the first place.

You want to fix the build ?

Remove air/fire proc and nerf strenght runes inot oblivion.

You just fixed not only S/D thief but also celestial ele ridicolous damage.

Problem solved.

Thank you, thats all I wanted to point out. People just don’t realize that it’s the Sigil/Rune Update that makes Thief, along with the other build, so powerful. Therefore any whine concerning S/D is kitten and pure hatred towards the class.

FeelsAlright.5860:

It’s a seperate issue. Even before the double procs trickery was an issue. I was tlaking about the vigour uptime. I’ll edit my post so there’s a line break between the sentences to make it easier to understand for you.

Indeed, you should. I agree insofar that trickery atm is too good to not take, but it also indicates that other trees (specifically DA, SA and to some lesser extent CS) are severly lacking.

Still my point stands. You don’t Nerf Y, because X is overpowered, thats bad balancing.

laquito.5269:

Mrbig.8019:

Ways to fix them ?

There’s nothing to fix, this S/D build should never exist in the first place.

You want to fix the build ?

Remove air/fire proc and nerf strenght runes inot oblivion.

You just fixed not only S/D thief but also celestial ele ridicolous damage.

Problem solved.

Thank you, thats all I wanted to point out. People just don’t realize that it’s the Sigil/Rune Update that makes Thief, along with the other build, so powerful. Therefore any whine concerning S/D is kitten and pure hatred towards the class.

FeelsAlright.5860:

It’s a seperate issue. Even before the double procs trickery was an issue. I was tlaking about the vigour uptime. I’ll edit my post so there’s a line break between the sentences to make it easier to understand for you.

Indeed, you should. I agree insofar that trickery atm is too good to not take, but it also indicates that other trees (specifically DA, SA and to some lesser extent CS) are severly lacking.

Still my point stands. You don’t Nerf Y, because X is overpowered, thats bad balancing.

Omg you really don’t get the point of the word “cheese” do you ?

Current S/D thief build has

perma vigor

feline grace

evades from flanking strike

boon steal from steal prioritizing stability and aegis

increased ini regen after ini buff patch

15 initiative

very strong damage

Better than average condi removal ( passive full damaging condi cleanse every 30 secs)

Thieves shouldn’t be able to have all these stuff.

S/P was balanced because it didn’t really have survivability, if you failed you were dead.

More than anything, thieves shouldn’t have this kind of damage without investing points into Critical strikes, cause acrobatic and trickery combined are totally broken.

Thief is by far the strongest profession in game right now, and the hardest to counter: in fact you can’t counter a thief unless you have a thief yourself, and this statement has never been more valid than now.

True as that may be, in a lot of cases the hatred towards the thief class is quite justified.
The only thing keeping thieves in check in PvP is that the whole game revolves around capture points. But the sad fact remains that shadowsteps are plain gimmicky because
1: they can go through walls
2: they don’t interrupt your current action
3: they’re name-locked (i.e. no aiming required)
Basically, they’re the epitome of a dumbed down combat mechanic insofar as they require very little thought from the user in regards to movement, positioning and general awareness, yet provide a massive advantage.

Stealth, while not a major problem in PvP at the moment, sadly suffers the same problems of being an inherently horrible feature, as is evident in other game modes (W to the v to the W).

Initiative is a little more tricky and probably the only thief feature that doesn’t have to be bad. Though in its current state, it’s not particularly mentally stimulating.

Thief, in-general, is broken b/c it has so many broken mechanics that break the very tenets of gw2 combat:
-Instant-cast skills
-Instant ports to the opponent, that ignore LOS and positioning, as is eloquently explained by vana
-Skills with no cooldown, but an initiative system, that means the most optimal skill can be used
-On-demand stealth with no cooldown (especially d/p) which give an overwhelming advantage for escapes, map-control, and in glass v. glass fights
-#1 map mobility and and map control, negating any other class from fulfilling the roaming role without doing it significantly worse than thief. This advantage is compounded by stealth which allows them to gtfo of a fight unnoticed.

On top of it, thief can take additional skills/traits that, while not inherent to the class, further break their design:
-Heal skill with no cast time and impossible to interrupt (Withdraw)
-3 dodges with feline grace
-Instant-cast port that steals 3 boons and interrupts, prioritizing stability and aegis, removing the capability of counter-play to interrupts completely. Its not even possible to dodge this (unless the thief screws up and uses it at a bad time) because IT IS INSTANT.
-Shadow refuge, which gives them a free get-of-jail-free, improves some match-ups due to synergy with shortbow (long immob + extra lifesteal), allow self-ressing, ensures team-resses, AND HEALS IN THE DOWN-STATE.
-Spammable evades
-Inherent immunity to many of the negative effects of interrupts and chill.

Having some of these broken mechanics would be o.k., but at this point, the thief class will never be balanced b/c Anet doesn’t want to remove ANY of the broken mechanics.

IMO, you could go a VERY LONG WAY to balancing the class by just forcing ports to be in LOS. This would not allow low-risk, high-reward gameplay. Alternatively, ports could interrupt actions, but that affects other classes as well.

The number of instant casts should also be reduced, but that isn’t thief specific. Instant-casts and auto-procs ruin this game by taking away skill.

Mrbig.8019:

S/P was never Op in the first place, it was coutnerable and needed quite decent skill to be used effectively.

LOL I didn’t realize that having a long evade combined with a stun while attacking for a couple of seconds on a single skill required skill to use effectively.

The problem is about thieves since they have the most broken mechanics in game: paired with sigils buffs they can just pack them in one package and faceroll.

Signed

Thief main.

Not only is this an unconvincing attempt to make us believe that you actually play thief, but if you’re talking about evasion (and I can’t imagine any other mechanic that would cause you to hate S/D so much)- that’s a mechanic that every profession has, friend.

BlackBeard.2873:

Thief, in-general, is broken b/c it has so many broken mechanics that break the very tenets of gw2 combat:
[nonsense]

What are the “tenets of GW2 combat”? For instance, thief’s only real insta-cast skill that I can pull off the top of my head is Steal, and even that isn’t necessarily unpredictable. Plus, most classes/every class has an “insta-cast” skill of some sort.

Also, I’m highly disturbed by how you treat the usage of mobility in combat as if it doesn’t require skill. On the contrary, since mobility is an indirect method of defense/offense, it requires far more skill to play with that simply mashing your buttons.

Arganthium.5638:

Not only is this an unconvincing attempt to make us believe that you actually play thief, but if you’re talking about evasion (and I can’t imagine any other mechanic that would cause you to hate S/D so much)- that’s a mechanic that every profession has, friend.

Except for Necromancer, Engineer and Guardian.
TIL – two thirds of something is all of it.

Mrbig.8019:

laquito.5269:

Leeto.1570:

laquito.5269:

Another whiny player. If I’ve learned one thing from these forums, it’s that thief – no matter what build currently is meta - will always be considered OP. It’s ridiculous.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Because thief no matter what spec or how weak in overall it is, have lots of broken and overpowered mechanics.
And as most of thief players are teen ninjas they have problems with critical thinking.
+other players cant even come with suggestions to solve these problems and improve thief overall cause then there comes this army of thiefs defending their class with some absurd offtopic arguments.

The behavior of non thief players complaining about thieves doesn’t promote critical thinking in first place, because they usually come up with arguments that are either not relevant to the strenght of said build, or , which is more often the case, whine about >class mechanics<.

Most of these posts are written by selfish, raging kids, whose intention isn’t even to improve or shape thief as a class, but merely to get them nerfed, because they’re unable or unwilling to adapt.

You’re sounding like ANet doesn’t ever touch thief specs, although we’re the class that probably gets shaped the most, based on whine posts like these. I don’t quite understand how you fail to see the pattern that is brought upon the class by these whine posts:
D/D Burst too strong —> Signet; Mug, CnD nerfed
S/D/Larcenous too strong --> Ini cost upped, Boonsteal reduced (Lyssa nerfed)
S/P overpowered —> Ini upped

Some of these nerfs were indeed necessary, but now you’re whining about something that has already been nerfed across the board. Thief sacrifices TWO traits for “perma” vigor, whereas other classes can easily have a high vigor uptime with one or nill.

Actually the only reason S/D Acro/Trick works is because of the Sigils (and Runes to a lesser extent) that offer enough damage to make up for CS, but this is a general “problem” (If u may say so), and now I ask you again: Why the kitten did OP explicitly state thieves in the topic, whereas the root problem holds truth for every class?

because thanks to sigil/runes buffs now teefs can build up all the cheese they have ( S/D evades, acro evades, daze on steal, perma vigor even after vigor nerf thanks to both vigorous recovery AND bountiful theft) in a single package while keeping high damage that before them wasn’t possible to achieve, making it the STRONGEST profession in game by far.

S/P was never Op in the first place, it was coutnerable and needed quite decent skill to be used effectively.

Now literally EVERY NAB can build his 2-0-0-6-6 teef and be a threat even greater than wars.

The problem is about thieves since they have the most broken mechanics in game: paired with sigils buffs they can just pack them in one package and faceroll.

Signed

Thief main.

Its worse than you suggest. Because everything you say has been true for about 10 months. Then you throw in the most crucial aspect. That the game mode is fully suited to mobility, with the lack of points for kills and with the short time it takes to decap another teams point. This makes the thief just totally format warping and to the point where the whole game is just boring.

So you have a class which:
1, Has no cooldowns which lowers the skill required – its just spam
2, Breaks the only game mode anet have given the players
3, With all this, is still the best profession at combat
4, Probably also the best class at stopping stomps

Everything went seriously wrong when they lowered all thief cds by 33% (by increasing initative gain). A thief can teleport in seconds from 1 side of the map to another and still have no shortage of initiative.

It is the biggest failing in game design I personally have ever seen. Sounds dramatic but its my opinion. I have never seen a game company buff the best profession in such a way. It was truely remarkable. The whole concept of the thief is unbalance able to be honest.

They buffed all sigils and runes, this was yet more obscene power creep. No wonder this game has 0 competitive players in it. Also any buffs to sigils and runes (as they are often % based) essentially just buffed the strongest classes anyway. If you do 10 damage and you get an extra 15% damage then you are even further ahead of the class which does 9 damage and gets an extra 15% damage (speaking in abstract terms)

Darko.5873:

Arganthium.5638:

Not only is this an unconvincing attempt to make us believe that you actually play thief, but if you’re talking about evasion (and I can’t imagine any other mechanic that would cause you to hate S/D so much)- that’s a mechanic that every profession has, friend.

Except for Necromancer, Engineer and Guardian.
TIL – two thirds of something is all of it.

Sorry, I guess I forgot that Necro, Engi, and Guard don’t have evasion bars.

It is always good to see these types of threads. At least there are some new players coming into GW2.

Acro Trickery S/D works now because of the power creep from the April patch. Air/fire sigils and runes of strength are what give it enough damage to be strong. Also the meta is might stack heavy which favors larcenous strike.

Take away strength runes and double procs for critical sigils make air proc every 5 seconds like it used to and it’s just a mediocre damaging, mobile evade tank, like it was prior to the power creep.

#carriedbyequipmentmods

Rune of Strength needs to be nerfed.

isnt thief the only clas in gw2, wich isnt rly affected by chill and interrupt? (at least the weapon skills, ini regen)

thief is also the only clas with its own special mobility no other clas has (most ports in gw2 and ports through obstacles)…..i would love to have some of the mobility skills with my ranger, that thief has

thief has a very high combat attack speed (highest in gw2)

guess wich clas dominates as roamer in spvp and wvw, or would anyone take me as powerranger in their spvp team?

Well, interesting, some good discussion in there, pretty constructive by some (less or not at all by others ^^).
Indeed, as a mesmer, if you play tPvP meta, so if you play anything except garbage useless PU (trolol 1v1 build useless for team) facing a S/D thief, well, you have no chance to win at all (if he’s good enough). You might play like a god, would not make a difference.
As said, they have :
- very long uptime of evasion (#3 sword, #3 SB, dodges by a lot) pressuring you in the same time : either you get damage and die, or you effectively dodge/stealth/run away etc … and survive. Problem ? After all that, you’re running out of CD, meanwhile thief stealths, regens ini and burst you again and again and again.
You, mesmer, have CDs, after some time, you’ll be caught offguard, regardless how good you might be and you’ll eventually die.
So all you can do is try to make the best use of your mechanisms, moves and dodges to buy some time. Then, ask or pray for an ally to save you or run away and thief won because he now has the point.

- problem of that very high evasion uptime is that thief can pressure you for a long period of time and you have to wait for an occasion to counter attack-burst the thief. Either you fail and will die, or you’ll succeed (with some luck) to deal a reasonnable blow. In that case, thief will spam more evade or use stealth to retreat, build ini, and burst again : rinse and repeat.

- so basically, if you’re playing with low health, especially in zerker amulet, you’ll lose to a thief. At best, you can “draw” a thief (if you force him to retreat).

- Even as condi engi, which is pretty much soft counter to thief (thief being hard counter to mesmer) it’s still pretty hard to kill a S/D thief, depending on your template and utilities. Your best bet is the fire bomb, since it ticks in constant, if thief gets in, you now has to survive and he’ll suffer major damage. However, without bombs, or if you’re on CD, well you actually have to land your attacks, and we come again to the problem of very high evasion uptime (explained before).

- No more problem ? Yes, one more and maybe the worst : teleport through the walls/doors etc … which makes it even harder. Let’s be honest, if a thief catches you offguard, jumping at you while you were not aware, you’ll die.
“No problem, just look at what’s coming and be prepared !”
Yeah, sure, but there’s the problem of teleporting through doors/walls. If it were limited to 1 short ranged teleport, that would be OK. However, a thief can use Sword #2, infiltrator’s signet AND steal for that, so can cover a long distance (not often used since it burst 2 CD) or can just spam it like hell (the rinse and repeat process).
So the problem of this is if you’re busy looking at or fighting another guy, thief will teleport through and burst you dead.
If you do see him coming, well, not sure at all you’ll be able to stop him, since you can’t attack him beforehand : thief will hide through walls and jump straight to you. After this, come back to high evasion uptime problem.

So in the end, I don’t think it’s a problem of sigils or runes. I think it’s more a problem of accumulating too many good things, lowing risk/reward factor. Approaching a target is not that risky for thief because of teleporting through walls. Then you have high evasion uptime during the fight. If you’re losing or missed your burst, just TP back or stealth to retreat, build ini and come again.
You would want to lower one of this problem to lower the “hard counter” aspect, give slightly better chance to counterattack to make it more fair.

Kids really complain about thief when the only game mode is conqest lolol

@Lordrosicky.5813

At first I would read your whole text, but as I read this:

Lordrosicky.5813:

So you have a class which:
1, Has no cooldowns which lowers the skill required – its just spam
2, Breaks the only game mode anet have given the players
3, With all this, is still the best profession at combat
4, Probably also the best class at stopping stomps

I stopped.

This is the part, which show me, show us all, that you have no clue about the thief class and write these things only for your own personal benefit.

No arguments, false pretences and stupid comparisons.

Yes! More thief nerfs!
grabs pitchfork

Black Teagan.9215:

@Lordrosicky.5813

At first I would read your whole text, but as I read this:

Lordrosicky.5813:

So you have a class which:
1, Has no cooldowns which lowers the skill required – its just spam
2, Breaks the only game mode anet have given the players
3, With all this, is still the best profession at combat
4, Probably also the best class at stopping stomps

I stopped.

This is the part, which show me, show us all, that you have no clue about the thief class and write these things only for your own personal benefit.

No arguments, false pretences and stupid comparisons.

Thief spotted

Dustin.2793:

Kids really complain about thief when the only game mode is conqest lolol

Thiex spotted

Kicast.1459:

Black Teagan.9215:

@Lordrosicky.5813

At first I would read your whole text, but as I read this:

Lordrosicky.5813:

So you have a class which:
1, Has no cooldowns which lowers the skill required – its just spam
2, Breaks the only game mode anet have given the players
3, With all this, is still the best profession at combat
4, Probably also the best class at stopping stomps

I stopped.

This is the part, which show me, show us all, that you have no clue about the thief class and write these things only for your own personal benefit.

No arguments, false pretences and stupid comparisons.

Thief spotted

Sry, that a Thief player know more about this class, than crying Non-Thieves.

Black Teagan.9215:

Kicast.1459:

Black Teagan.9215:

@Lordrosicky.5813

At first I would read your whole text, but as I read this:

Lordrosicky.5813:

So you have a class which:
1, Has no cooldowns which lowers the skill required – its just spam
2, Breaks the only game mode anet have given the players
3, With all this, is still the best profession at combat
4, Probably also the best class at stopping stomps

I stopped.

This is the part, which show me, show us all, that you have no clue about the thief class and write these things only for your own personal benefit.

No arguments, false pretences and stupid comparisons.

Thief spotted

Sry, that a Thief player know more about this class, than crying Non-Thieves.

Not really. I am beyond crying to be honest. That was 6 months ago. I don’t play anymore because of the same old game mode. It is really hilarious to be honest. They give you one game mode and then give 1 class 3x the mobility of any other class. So thief just breaks the game. It is mechanically broken. Also happens to be the best class in combat, in pretty much every situation – 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5. It is still the best.

But anet don’t care. That is really that simple!

Black Teagan.9215:

Kicast.1459:

Black Teagan.9215:

@Lordrosicky.5813

At first I would read your whole text, but as I read this:

Lordrosicky.5813:

So you have a class which:
1, Has no cooldowns which lowers the skill required – its just spam
2, Breaks the only game mode anet have given the players
3, With all this, is still the best profession at combat
4, Probably also the best class at stopping stomps

I stopped.

This is the part, which show me, show us all, that you have no clue about the thief class and write these things only for your own personal benefit.

No arguments, false pretences and stupid comparisons.

Thief spotted

Sry, that a Thief player know more about this class, than crying Non-Thieves.

Stop defending your crutch, you aren’t persuading anyone.

Yes we know that if they take your crutch away you’ll have to learn how to play a class that can actually be hit with attacks.

the amount of ignorance on this board is amazing. i really wish s/d was as strong of a build as you people make it out to be.

Mrbig.8019:

Omg you really don’t get the point of the word “cheese” do you ?

Current S/D thief build has

perma vigor

feline grace

evades from flanking strike

boon steal from steal prioritizing stability and aegis

increased ini regen after ini buff patch

15 initiative

very strong damage

Better than average condi removal ( passive full damaging condi cleanse every 30 secs)

Thieves shouldn’t be able to have all these stuff.

S/P was balanced because it didn’t really have survivability, if you failed you were dead.

Thief is by far the strongest profession in game right now, and the hardest to counter: in fact you can’t counter a thief unless you have a thief yourself, and this statement has never been more valid than now.

you either are a REALLY terrible player or don’t actually even play PvP because no veteran would ever say that that thief is the strongest profession in the game.

you even had said before in a post that S/P was the strongest thief build in the game, and seeing how almost nothing has changed since then i think you’re tailoring your opinions to attack whatever is the current meta.

also in general, your “argument” is incredibly weak, all you did was list characteristics of s/d and without explanation call them overpowered. you’re either ignorant or trying to embellish these things to fluff up your argument.

vana.5467:

True as that may be, in a lot of cases the hatred towards the thief class is quite justified.
The only thing keeping thieves in check in PvP is that the whole game revolves around capture points. But the sad fact remains that shadowsteps are plain gimmicky because
1: they can go through walls
2: they don’t interrupt your current action
3: they’re name-locked (i.e. no aiming required)
Basically, they’re the epitome of a dumbed down combat mechanic insofar as they require very little thought from the user in regards to movement, positioning and general awareness, yet provide a massive advantage.

Stealth, while not a major problem in PvP at the moment, sadly suffers the same problems of being an inherently horrible feature, as is evident in other game modes (W to the v to the W).

Initiative is a little more tricky and probably the only thief feature that doesn’t have to be bad. Though in its current state, it’s not particularly mentally stimulating.

so all of the inexplicable thief hate by people who have no idea what their talking about or have a strong bias against the profession is now validated by you calling out shadowsteps?

yeah nice try, but no. there’s infiltrator’s strike, infiltrator’s arrow, infiltrator’s signet, steal, and shadowstep. and of these 5 shadowsteps, only 3 are targeted. targeted shadowsteps let you go through certain obstacles (not many) but have the huge downside of having to be targeted which makes them that much less viable for defensive use. you might as well complain about mesmer’s portal as that’s actually a real teleport, as opposed to running you on the floor really fast like an nintendo 64 game.

and i dont see how not interrupting your current action is broken, when there are plenty of other professions that have teleports that don’t do this either.

stealth isn’t that strong either. it’s very counterable in different ways. stealth only starts to get problematic with shadow arts, which s/d never runs on top of the fact that s/d only has one stealth skill that consumes large amounts of initiative and often misses.

well, thief continues to the object of misguided anger and frustration amongst hundreds of awful players, big surprise.

you guys should really put all this effort you put into whining and put it into actually learning how to beat builds you have trouble with because they don’t give you spoonfed wins. crazy idea isn’kitten

dear anet, “isn’t” and “it” are actual words, please fix your censor.

Well to be fair people did complain about mesmer portal and then it was given 90 second cool down.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Well to be fair people did complain about mesmer portal and then it was given 90 second cool down.

And a distance cap.

Used to be able to port people from one side of WvW borderlands to the other.

Drop portal in enemy garrison → WP to spawn → Open Portal → ???? → Profit

sinject.4607:

the amount of ignorance on this board is amazing. i really wish s/d was as strong of a build as you people make it out to be.

Mrbig.8019:

Omg you really don’t get the point of the word “cheese” do you ?

Current S/D thief build has

perma vigor

feline grace

evades from flanking strike

boon steal from steal prioritizing stability and aegis

increased ini regen after ini buff patch

15 initiative

very strong damage

Better than average condi removal ( passive full damaging condi cleanse every 30 secs)

Thieves shouldn’t be able to have all these stuff.

S/P was balanced because it didn’t really have survivability, if you failed you were dead.

Thief is by far the strongest profession in game right now, and the hardest to counter: in fact you can’t counter a thief unless you have a thief yourself, and this statement has never been more valid than now.

you either are a REALLY terrible player or don’t actually even play PvP because no veteran would ever say that that thief is the strongest profession in the game.

you even had said before in a post that S/P was the strongest thief build in the game, and seeing how almost nothing has changed since then i think you’re tailoring your opinions to attack whatever is the current meta.

also in general, your “argument” is incredibly weak, all you did was list characteristics of s/d and without explanation call them overpowered. you’re either ignorant or trying to embellish these things to fluff up your argument.

Actually all top players agree that current S/D thief build is the dumbest thing this game ever had.

I kinda doubt you even know any “top player” or even played at decent level, but i don’t really want to go checkin leaderboards in order to avoid the common " LAWL LADDERBOARDZ MEAN NOTHING YO SCRUB" arguments.

S/P being the strongest build in the last meta means kitten about it being counterable or not.

Not really going to argue with you anymore anyway, wasted time.

sinject.4607:

evasion is not this uncounterable 1-click perfect defense that you seem to think it is .

Actually it is. This is what makes evasion imbalanced. Its dodge integrated into offensive/defensive weapon skills and utilities. And it has no counter. That is quite powerful, its like dodging and being able to attack and heal at once. Evasion gets mentioned up often with thief because they do not rely on static cooldowns like the other classes.

sinject.4607:

vana.5467:

True as that may be, in a lot of cases the hatred towards the thief class is quite justified.
The only thing keeping thieves in check in PvP is that the whole game revolves around capture points. But the sad fact remains that shadowsteps are plain gimmicky because
1: they can go through walls
2: they don’t interrupt your current action
3: they’re name-locked (i.e. no aiming required)
Basically, they’re the epitome of a dumbed down combat mechanic insofar as they require very little thought from the user in regards to movement, positioning and general awareness, yet provide a massive advantage.

Stealth, while not a major problem in PvP at the moment, sadly suffers the same problems of being an inherently horrible feature, as is evident in other game modes (W to the v to the W).

Initiative is a little more tricky and probably the only thief feature that doesn’t have to be bad. Though in its current state, it’s not particularly mentally stimulating.

so all of the inexplicable thief hate by people who have no idea what their talking about or have a strong bias against the profession is now validated by you calling out shadowsteps?

yeah nice try, but no. there’s infiltrator’s strike, infiltrator’s arrow, infiltrator’s signet, steal, and shadowstep. and of these 5 shadowsteps, only 3 are targeted. targeted shadowsteps let you go through certain obstacles (not many) but have the huge downside of having to be targeted which makes them that much less viable for defensive use. you might as well complain about mesmer’s portal as that’s actually a real teleport, as opposed to running you on the floor really fast like an nintendo 64 game.

and i dont see how not interrupting your current action is broken, when there are plenty of other professions that have teleports that don’t do this either.

stealth isn’t that strong either. it’s very counterable in different ways. stealth only starts to get problematic with shadow arts, which s/d never runs on top of the fact that s/d only has one stealth skill that consumes large amounts of initiative and often misses.

---

well, thief continues to the object of misguided anger and frustration amongst hundreds of awful players, big surprise.

you guys should really put all this effort you put into whining and put it into actually learning how to beat builds you have trouble with because they don’t give you spoonfed wins. crazy idea isn’kitten

dear anet, “isn’t” and “it” are actual words, please fix your censor.

It would appear that you missed my point entirely.
Forget about specifics – shadowsteps and stealth are, for the purpose of competitive play, poorly thought out combat mechanics.

You’re right, shadowsteps being targeted doesn’t provide much in the way of defensive abilities (except when there’s a return function – Infiltrator’s strike), but it does create a situation where you can be woefully unaware of where your target is and still chase it down. The offensive implications are tremendous.

The reason why it’s bad that they don’t interrupt your action should be pretty clear – it allows you to use melee skills at range with little or no telegraphing. And yes, lightning flash etc. are in the same category – but that’s not the topic of conversation.

Please understand that I’m in no way trying to suggest that these skilltypes make a thief unkillable – not that this effect would necessarily be needed in order for the class to be labeled OP.
What I’m trying to get across is that the class is based on features which are fundamentally gimmicky. The hatred for the class pops up whenever there’s a situation/meta where these features are highlighted.

Mrbig.8019:

sinject.4607:

the amount of ignorance on this board is amazing. i really wish s/d was as strong of a build as you people make it out to be.

Mrbig.8019:

Omg you really don’t get the point of the word “cheese” do you ?

Current S/D thief build has

perma vigor

feline grace

evades from flanking strike

boon steal from steal prioritizing stability and aegis

increased ini regen after ini buff patch

15 initiative

very strong damage

Better than average condi removal ( passive full damaging condi cleanse every 30 secs)

Thieves shouldn’t be able to have all these stuff.

S/P was balanced because it didn’t really have survivability, if you failed you were dead.

Thief is by far the strongest profession in game right now, and the hardest to counter: in fact you can’t counter a thief unless you have a thief yourself, and this statement has never been more valid than now.

you either are a REALLY terrible player or don’t actually even play PvP because no veteran would ever say that that thief is the strongest profession in the game.

you even had said before in a post that S/P was the strongest thief build in the game, and seeing how almost nothing has changed since then i think you’re tailoring your opinions to attack whatever is the current meta.

also in general, your “argument” is incredibly weak, all you did was list characteristics of s/d and without explanation call them overpowered. you’re either ignorant or trying to embellish these things to fluff up your argument.

Actually all top players agree that current S/D thief build is the dumbest thing this game ever had.

I kinda doubt you even know any “top player” or even played at decent level, but i don’t really want to go checkin leaderboards in order to avoid the common " LAWL LADDERBOARDZ MEAN NOTHING YO SCRUB" arguments.

S/P being the strongest build in the last meta means kitten about it being counterable or not.

Not really going to argue with you anymore anyway, wasted time.

so now you’re not only making broad statements speaking for players you don’t know at all but you’re not going to argue about the very points you brought up.

seems like your balloon is out of hot air.

Mrbig.8019:

I kinda doubt you even know any “top player” or even played at decent level, but i don’t really want to go checkin leaderboards in order to avoid the common " LAWL LADDERBOARDZ MEAN NOTHING YO SCRUB" arguments.

Don’t act like a baller, when ur low ranked yourself. Leaderboards indeed say little about one’s individual skill, and this is coming from someone, who is ranked way higher than you.

You’re not even specifiing who said what, nor do you provide evidence to backup your claim. It’s not like they add any more credibility to your post. :’)

Black Teagan.9215:

Kicast.1459:

Black Teagan.9215:

@Lordrosicky.5813

At first I would read your whole text, but as I read this:

Lordrosicky.5813:

So you have a class which:
1, Has no cooldowns which lowers the skill required – its just spam
2, Breaks the only game mode anet have given the players
3, With all this, is still the best profession at combat
4, Probably also the best class at stopping stomps

I stopped.

This is the part, which show me, show us all, that you have no clue about the thief class and write these things only for your own personal benefit.

No arguments, false pretences and stupid comparisons.

Thief spotted

Sry, that a Thief player know more about this class, than crying Non-Thieves.

You forgot to say that a Thief player has the less interest of having his profession nerfed.
If you feel your class is ok it is obviously because you should be terrible at it or feel comfortable powning every thing on unfair rules.

laquito.5269:

Mrbig.8019:

I kinda doubt you even know any “top player” or even played at decent level, but i don’t really want to go checkin leaderboards in order to avoid the common " LAWL LADDERBOARDZ MEAN NOTHING YO SCRUB" arguments.

Don’t act like a baller, when ur low ranked yourself. Leaderboards indeed say little about one’s individual skill, and this is coming from someone, who is ranked way higher than you.

You’re not even specifiing who said what, nor do you provide evidence to backup your claim. It’s not like they add any more credibility to your post. :’)

ok checkin….

nope couldn’t find you.

Go searchin for my name if you care, as you said leaderboards really mean little ASIDE THE FACT you play against the best players with the best comps so at least you can talk to them or have an idea about what is good and what isn’t.

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP is your friend.

It really makes me baffle how vocal nabs are in this forum mostly knowing nothing about the game. like they did in Yilvina thread about the ranger.

Mrbig.8019:

laquito.5269:

Mrbig.8019:

I kinda doubt you even know any “top player” or even played at decent level, but i don’t really want to go checkin leaderboards in order to avoid the common " LAWL LADDERBOARDZ MEAN NOTHING YO SCRUB" arguments.

Don’t act like a baller, when ur low ranked yourself. Leaderboards indeed say little about one’s individual skill, and this is coming from someone, who is ranked way higher than you.

You’re not even specifiing who said what, nor do you provide evidence to backup your claim. It’s not like they add any more credibility to your post. :’)

ok checkin….

nope couldn’t find you.

Go searchin for my name if you care, as you said leaderboards really mean little ASIDE THE FACT you play against the best players with the best comps so at least you can talk to them or have an idea about what is good and what isn’t.

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP is your friend.

It really makes me baffle how vocal nabs are in this forum mostly knowing nothing about the game. like they did in Yilvina thread about the ranger.

Should be a locked forum for only people currently in the top 100 of either solo or team queue where all balance issues are discussed and decided.

Mrbig.8019:

ok checkin….

nope couldn’t find you

Lordrosicky.5813:

Should be a locked forum for only people currently in the top 100 of either solo or team queue where all balance issues are discussed and decided.

Guess I’m the only one of us allowed to talk then.

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/laquito5269

Seriously guys, go play some PvE and listen to this smart person.

Mrbig.8019:

It really makes me baffle how vocal nabs are in this forum mostly knowing nothing about the game. like they did in Yilvina thread about the ranger.