Guild Wars 2

Truth be told I’m not the biggest PvPer by a long shot, but I’ve been using S/D since day one and would like to give some thoughts onto how to bring S/D more in line.

I’ll start with the biggy. Larcenous Strike. This skill has it all, power, utility, and defense. It’s become an all purpose skill that can win a battle with little effort. The skill shouldn’t bring both damage and utility to the battle. I propose they nerf it’s damage by 50-75%, increase it’s cost to 4-5 init (making it have a grand total of 7 to 8 init cost), shorten the amount of time you have to use it a touch, and increase the boons stolen to 3 possibly. Maybe give it a flashier tell as well.

In return they could perhaps increase the sword auto-attack’s overall damage by 5-10%, make dancing dagger inflict torment, and increase the daze on tactical strike a smidge.

I feel this’d make larcenous strike more risky to use forcing s/d users to make full use of their set, hopefully while still keeping them a viable threat. If it proves too harsh, buff something other then larcenous strike.

Dual.8953:

Truth be told I’m not the biggest PvPer by a long shot, but I’ve been using S/D since day one and would like to give some thoughts onto how to bring S/D more in line.

I’ll start with the biggy. Larcenous Strike. This skill has it all, power, utility, and defense. It’s become an all purpose skill that can win a battle with little effort. The skill shouldn’t bring both damage and utility to the battle. I propose they nerf it’s damage by 50-75%, increase it’s cost to 4-5 init (making it have a grand total of 7 to 8 init cost), shorten the amount of time you have to use it a touch, and increase the boons stolen to 3 possibly. Maybe give it a flashier tell as well.

In return they could perhaps increase the sword auto-attack’s overall damage by 5-10%, make dancing dagger inflict torment, and increase the daze on tactical strike a smidge.

I feel this’d make larcenous strike more risky to use forcing s/d users to make full use of their set, hopefully while still keeping them a viable threat. If it proves too harsh, buff something other then larcenous strike.

Or you could just use p/d p/d and join the master race of thieves and probably the only kinda skill based thief build

Dual.8953:

Truth be told I’m not the biggest PvPer by a long shot, but I’ve been using S/D since day one and would like to give some thoughts onto how to bring S/D more in line.

I’ll start with the biggy. Larcenous Strike. This skill has it all, power, utility, and defense. It’s become an all purpose skill that can win a battle with little effort. The skill shouldn’t bring both damage and utility to the battle. I propose they nerf it’s damage by 50-75%, increase it’s cost to 4-5 init (making it have a grand total of 7 to 8 init cost), shorten the amount of time you have to use it a touch, and increase the boons stolen to 3 possibly. Maybe give it a flashier tell as well.

In return they could perhaps increase the sword auto-attack’s overall damage by 5-10%, make dancing dagger inflict torment, and increase the daze on tactical strike a smidge.

I feel this’d make larcenous strike more risky to use forcing s/d users to make full use of their set, hopefully while still keeping them a viable threat. If it proves too harsh, buff something other then larcenous strike.

Must kidding ? 8 initiative is 66%, with trait 55% total Thief initiative.
FS+LS have same DPS as autoattack and you want to reduce 50-75% DMG lol ?.

How many hours do you have played a thief, If you can write such a nonsense ? 10 ? 20 ?

Evilek.5690:

Dual.8953:

Truth be told I’m not the biggest PvPer by a long shot, but I’ve been using S/D since day one and would like to give some thoughts onto how to bring S/D more in line.

I’ll start with the biggy. Larcenous Strike. This skill has it all, power, utility, and defense. It’s become an all purpose skill that can win a battle with little effort. The skill shouldn’t bring both damage and utility to the battle. I propose they nerf it’s damage by 50-75%, increase it’s cost to 4-5 init (making it have a grand total of 7 to 8 init cost), shorten the amount of time you have to use it a touch, and increase the boons stolen to 3 possibly. Maybe give it a flashier tell as well.

In return they could perhaps increase the sword auto-attack’s overall damage by 5-10%, make dancing dagger inflict torment, and increase the daze on tactical strike a smidge.

I feel this’d make larcenous strike more risky to use forcing s/d users to make full use of their set, hopefully while still keeping them a viable threat. If it proves too harsh, buff something other then larcenous strike.

Must kidding ? 8 initiative is 66%, with trait 55% total Thief initiative.
FS+LS have same DPS as autoattack and you want to reduce 50-75% DMG lol ?.

How many hours do you have played a thief, If you can write such a nonsense ? 10 ? 20 ?

One hour is enough to notice that S/D thief is overpowered. Reduce 50-75% is too much but this skill need to be nerfed. You should not be able to dodge, deal damage (3-4k per skill) and steal boons.
Maybe, devs have to increase initiative of the first skill (Flanking strike I think) from 3 to 4 or reduce the damage by 15% at least if initiative is not increased.

This game need to be more skilled… like helseth said on his stream http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/c/2826888

flo.2048:

Evilek.5690:

Dual.8953:

Truth be told I’m not the biggest PvPer by a long shot, but I’ve been using S/D since day one and would like to give some thoughts onto how to bring S/D more in line.

I’ll start with the biggy. Larcenous Strike. This skill has it all, power, utility, and defense. It’s become an all purpose skill that can win a battle with little effort. The skill shouldn’t bring both damage and utility to the battle. I propose they nerf it’s damage by 50-75%, increase it’s cost to 4-5 init (making it have a grand total of 7 to 8 init cost), shorten the amount of time you have to use it a touch, and increase the boons stolen to 3 possibly. Maybe give it a flashier tell as well.

In return they could perhaps increase the sword auto-attack’s overall damage by 5-10%, make dancing dagger inflict torment, and increase the daze on tactical strike a smidge.

I feel this’d make larcenous strike more risky to use forcing s/d users to make full use of their set, hopefully while still keeping them a viable threat. If it proves too harsh, buff something other then larcenous strike.

Must kidding ? 8 initiative is 66%, with trait 55% total Thief initiative.
FS+LS have same DPS as autoattack and you want to reduce 50-75% DMG lol ?.

How many hours do you have played a thief, If you can write such a nonsense ? 10 ? 20 ?

One hour is enough to notice that S/D thief is overpowered. Reduce 50-75% is too much but this skill need to be nerfed. You should not be able to dodge, deal damage (3-4k per skill) and steal boons.

Come in sPvP,I pick necro,warrior,or ranger and I will laugh your poor thief.

FS+LC This combocass time 1,64s
Autoattack chain Slice+Slash+CS 1,94s

FS 68dmg+ LS 136DMG = 204DMG per 1.64s = 124DPS

vs

Slice 72DMG + Slash 72DMG + CS 118 DMG = 236 DMG per 1.95s = 121DPS

I must say WoW and WoW,attack which cost 41% Thief ini have same DPS as autoattack chain

Autoattack chain – crypple+weakness (0 ini cost)
FS+LS – steal 2x boons and 0.5s evade (5 ini cost)

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Nerf DMG ? Why no but boost other elements and other spell because Thief has really stupid weapon set combination, only one good setup with sinergi is d/p.

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.

Problem solved.

flo.2048:

Evilek.5690:

Dual.8953:

Truth be told I’m not the biggest PvPer by a long shot, but I’ve been using S/D since day one and would like to give some thoughts onto how to bring S/D more in line.

I’ll start with the biggy. Larcenous Strike. This skill has it all, power, utility, and defense. It’s become an all purpose skill that can win a battle with little effort. The skill shouldn’t bring both damage and utility to the battle. I propose they nerf it’s damage by 50-75%, increase it’s cost to 4-5 init (making it have a grand total of 7 to 8 init cost), shorten the amount of time you have to use it a touch, and increase the boons stolen to 3 possibly. Maybe give it a flashier tell as well.

In return they could perhaps increase the sword auto-attack’s overall damage by 5-10%, make dancing dagger inflict torment, and increase the daze on tactical strike a smidge.

I feel this’d make larcenous strike more risky to use forcing s/d users to make full use of their set, hopefully while still keeping them a viable threat. If it proves too harsh, buff something other then larcenous strike.

Must kidding ? 8 initiative is 66%, with trait 55% total Thief initiative.
FS+LS have same DPS as autoattack and you want to reduce 50-75% DMG lol ?.

How many hours do you have played a thief, If you can write such a nonsense ? 10 ? 20 ?

One hour is enough to notice that S/D thief is overpowered. Reduce 50-75% is too much but this skill need to be nerfed. You should not be able to dodge, deal damage (3-4k per skill) and steal boons.
Maybe, devs have to increase initiative of the first skill (Flanking strike I think) from 3 to 4 or reduce the damage by 15% at least if initiative is not increased.

This game need to be more skilled… like helseth said on his stream http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/c/2826888

Your numbers are made up – stop spreading Misinformation
The listed damage for an FS is 1356 under the following conditions
-30 points in DA
-25 stacks of might
-25 stacks of bloodlust
-Zerkers ammy and gem (or any with max power)
-Assassins sig
-Sigil of force.
-Target at 2000 armor
-Ogre runes

So yeah, I guess if you ever find yourself fighting a GC while you’ve got every single available power buff on, you might find a way to get FS to crit in the 3-4k range (if you satisfy some further conditional Damage buffs). Even getting LS to crit (thats CRIT, not HIT, an important clarification) in that range requires a complete Glass Setup against a glassy target.

If you’re going to try and make a point, please realize people can and will fact check you – you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about, so we’re just going to go ahead and discount your opinion.

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.

Problem solved.

for a fact i am a R45 S/D thief with 1064 hours of thief play and even i think this needs a fix cus it’s so one sided

Barock.7183:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.
Problem solved.

for a fact i am a R45 S/D thief with 1064 hours of thief play and even i think this needs a fix cus it’s so one sided

Go ahead and elaborate “cus it’s so one sided” then.

IMO is a matter of “learn to counter” I normally have no problem against average players but a good one can shut me down for good.

for example a warrior friend of mine does not rush into me nor he charges like a mad man swinging at the air, he lets me close on him (he literally waits for me) and as soon as i use #3 the first evade, he knocks me down and obliterate’s me, even if i manage to shadowstep away with 50% of my health he will do it again if i use #3.

So i had to learn how to kill a warrior without using #3 otherwise he would kill me, since he was just waiting for me to press it to use his CC.

Grab a thief friend and duel him as many times as you need to find a way to counter them, that’s my advice.

OR you can just cry out loud for nerfs… it’s alot easier right?

Edit: Rank 41 with 100% of my play time on Thief.

K, its funny read sometime the forums, S/d just got a huge nerf with the shdow return stun break removal, also the increased ini on LS, now s/d its fine, problem is that ppl needs learning wheels,I’ll give u some tips how to beat s/d,i play it since launch rank 50 atm,before was harder to hit FS, u needed to have a great timing on camera rotation.
1.-Blind screw s/d.
2.- try to evade main attacks like LS. dont waste on FS.
3.- Place some aoe on the initial position ,(shadow return place).
We are the natural counter of boon based builds like mesmers,eles so dont complain about it,“a>b>c>a”

S/D is fine, as Mace/shield GS warrior is fine, as Spirit ranger is fine, as necro is fine and so on. Probably none of this is much stronger than the others. But all ofthese are all kinda stupid builds is someone’s opinion.

I never played S/D, but I agree someone might argue that Flanking Strike is overpowered compared to the rest of sword skills. Maybe the utiliy should be spread along the whole weapon set.

But they still make this crappy meta.

A 10% dps nerf would be enough for me to shelf S/D, pick up D/P again, and never look back.
I wouldn’t mind it though, because D/P is actually a complete kit and more fun to play.

Move this to the thief forums, has no business here

LS is op but then what isn’t on a thief?

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.
Problem solved.

for a fact i am a R45 S/D thief with 1064 hours of thief play and even i think this needs a fix cus it’s so one sided

Go ahead and elaborate “cus it’s so one sided” then.

He’s saying because FS/LS has become the so powerful that there’s no reason not to spam it in all situations. You’re evading so much that it’s a waste of time to try to hit you, and the damage is just as good as auto attack (S/D’s former main damage dealer), and you steal 2 boons every stab. So you have S/D’s highest damage, defense and the ability to shut down boon users completely all in one spammable skill. It disgusts me that the weapon set that my favourite weaponset which I have used for well over 700 hours, has reduced itself to spamming the 3 skill to be effective at top level play.
It disgusts me that that 222222 thing people say about D/x thieves is actually true on S/D thieves with 333333.
My idea is to destroy that kind of play and bring it back to the S/D users making full use of their.

Dual.8953:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

like above post says the damage of auto attack is high enough to keep the build viable even with a flanking nerf

this is exactly why the damage has to be reduced with something like 50% but keep the initiative.
thief play should be situational you shouldn’t be able to kill anything while the best option is “almost” always the same key this is why normal attack should be a better option then flanking so we will only use it to dodge a critical attack like warrior stun or remove stability etc so i believe in the damage reduction but keep the initiative the builds are already initiative orientated so they can spam it.
if you reduce the damage players will not spec to spam it anymore and you get a viable versatile balanced play style.
correct me if i’m wrong :p

sorry for this one thief colleagues just got to be honest on this one to improve the over all game quality

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.
Problem solved.

for a fact i am a R45 S/D thief with 1064 hours of thief play and even i think this needs a fix cus it’s so one sided

Go ahead and elaborate “cus it’s so one sided” then.

He’s saying because FS/LS has become the so powerful that there’s no reason not to spam it in all situations. You’re evading so much that it’s a waste of time to try to hit you, and the damage is just as good as auto attack (S/D’s former main damage dealer), and you steal 2 boons every stab. So you have S/D’s highest damage, defense and the ability to shut down boon users completely all in one spammable skill. It disgusts me that the weapon set that my favourite weaponset which I have used for well over 700 hours, has reduced itself to spamming the 3 skill to be effective at top level play.
It disgusts me that that 222222 thing people say about D/x thieves is actually true on S/D thieves with 333333.
My idea is to destroy that kind of play and bring it back to the S/D users making full use of their.

Spamming 3 with S/D is as exactly as effective as spamming 2 with Dagger MH. There are times when spam is the right way to go, but doing so universally and without good reason will get you destroyed.

You aren’t “always evading” if you’re spamming 3. In fact, you’re evading exactly half the time. FS does kitten damage, the big hit is the one where your open for .5s as you prepare the swing. If you can’t learn simple timing, then crying on the boards wont help you.

As a quick sidenote, I rolled a warrior and went Hammer – M/S for funsies. In my very first fight with an S/D thief, I couldn’t hit him (Not that he did anywhere near the amount of damage he needed to drop me, mind you, but I couldn’t hit him). On the second fight, when I was more used to skill cast times, I batted him all around the screen like a pinball. How? Because I’ve been playing an S/D thief for months. I knew Exactly what the thief was going to do, and when he was going to do it, I just needed a little more experience with Warriors cast times. It’s hilariously easy to time with just a little practice. Worst case scenario, He’s spamming dodges all over the place, hitting me with FS (Which hits for kitten, btw) and only FS, because every time he even thought about being near me and not evading, he caught a hammer or mace in the face.

Let’s also note that Double S/D is a mostly dead spec – it doesn’t have any poison (which is brutal in current meta, with all the passive regen people are rolling with), can’t contribute to team fights, and gets shredded by AoE every second they aren’t evading with FS.

Nobody is spamming 3 and “effective at top play”. The people crying about Double S/D 3 spam are Hot Join hero’s, where any crap spec can work because some people are awful

evilapprentice.6379:

Dual.8953:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

evilapprentice.6379:

Barock.7183:

Evilek.5690:

Barock.7183:

snip

I must laugh again

Reduce the power of S / D of only 10% and I guarantee that you will never play S/D Thief and all go play D/P and we see many new crying post on this forum.

so you are competely ok with the the state S/D is in atm?
at least try to get a solution here instead of barking everything off like Anet is going to cut your junk of in the next patch.

they will nerf this one day,if only to improve the play style.
all we can do is steer them in the right direction maybe 50% reduce is to much but together with a dancing dagger buff and a 30% dmg reduce it should be a viable weapon set.

Yeah, S/D is fine. There’s no need for a “solution” because there isn’t a problem, beyond your inability to learn how to counter an S/D thief. Go roll an S/D thief, learn the timing, and every time you get trucked (and you will), wonder to yourself “How did that happen?”, then mimic it.
Problem solved.

for a fact i am a R45 S/D thief with 1064 hours of thief play and even i think this needs a fix cus it’s so one sided

Go ahead and elaborate “cus it’s so one sided” then.

He’s saying because FS/LS has become the so powerful that there’s no reason not to spam it in all situations. You’re evading so much that it’s a waste of time to try to hit you, and the damage is just as good as auto attack (S/D’s former main damage dealer), and you steal 2 boons every stab. So you have S/D’s highest damage, defense and the ability to shut down boon users completely all in one spammable skill. It disgusts me that the weapon set that my favourite weaponset which I have used for well over 700 hours, has reduced itself to spamming the 3 skill to be effective at top level play.
It disgusts me that that 222222 thing people say about D/x thieves is actually true on S/D thieves with 333333.
My idea is to destroy that kind of play and bring it back to the S/D users making full use of their.

Spamming 3 with S/D is as exactly as effective as spamming 2 with Dagger MH. There are times when spam is the right way to go, but doing so universally and without good reason will get you destroyed.

You aren’t “always evading” if you’re spamming 3. In fact, you’re evading exactly half the time. FS does kitten damage, the big hit is the one where your open for .5s as you prepare the swing. If you can’t learn simple timing, then crying on the boards wont help you.

As a quick sidenote, I rolled a warrior and went Hammer – M/S for funsies. In my very first fight with an S/D thief, I couldn’t hit him (Not that he did anywhere near the amount of damage he needed to drop me, mind you, but I couldn’t hit him). On the second fight, when I was more used to skill cast times, I batted him all around the screen like a pinball. How? Because I’ve been playing an S/D thief for months. I knew Exactly what the thief was going to do, and when he was going to do it, I just needed a little more experience with Warriors cast times. It’s hilariously easy to time with just a little practice. Worst case scenario, He’s spamming dodges all over the place, hitting me with FS (Which hits for kitten, btw) and only FS, because every time he even thought about being near me and not evading, he caught a hammer or mace in the face.

Let’s also note that Double S/D is a mostly dead spec – it doesn’t have any poison (which is brutal in current meta, with all the passive regen people are rolling with), can’t contribute to team fights, and gets shredded by AoE every second they aren’t evading with FS.

Nobody is spamming 3 and “effective at top play”. The people crying about Double S/D 3 spam are Hot Join hero’s, where any crap spec can work because some people are awful

Well I’m going with what I’ve been hearing going around with this rant being the icing on the cake: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Helseths-Rant-of-the-Week-THIS-META/first#content

I can see how the presents of an S/D thief in a game can block boon heavy classes from playing, and I want LS to still be a counter to boon users but not completely shut them down by it’s mere presence.
S/D used to be considered a respectable thief set. Now it’s joined the ranks of the “mindless spammers” in people’s minds. I get the inkling that most Spvp S/D users hardly ever even use Tactical Strike anymore.
I realize there’s a lot more problems with other classes in SPvP but I don’t have experience with them, I have been with S/D from the start, which is why I speak about it and not them.

Jumper.9482:

A 10% dps nerf would be enough for me to shelf S/D, pick up D/P again, and never look back.
I wouldn’t mind it though, because D/P is actually a complete kit and more fun to play.

How do you feel S/D could be balanced purely as a set?

I am asking since a lot of top players felt it is too powerful and it was mainly your build that made the set spread in popularity immediately after Sword #3 was patched.

Stof.9584:

Jumper.9482:

A 10% dps nerf would be enough for me to shelf S/D, pick up D/P again, and never look back.
I wouldn’t mind it though, because D/P is actually a complete kit and more fun to play.

How do you feel S/D could be balanced purely as a set?

I am asking since a lot of top players felt it is too powerful and it was mainly your build that made the set spread in popularity immediately after Sword #3 was patched.

An aftercast buff on CnD, enabling TS to be used as a viable interrupt (at the same time buffing D/D). And/or revert the nerf to CnD and buff Tactical Strike damage.
And giving Dancing Dagger something extra. Torment (to help p/d condi as well) or a mini stun on the first hit when landed from behind the target.
This would go, in hand, with nerfing FS/LS dps by about 5-15%

Dual.8953:

I can see how the presents of an S/D thief in a game can block boon heavy classes from playing, and I want LS to still be a counter to boon users but not completely shut them down by it’s mere presence.
S/D used to be considered a respectable thief set. Now it’s joined the ranks of the “mindless spammers” in people’s minds. I get the inkling that most Spvp S/D users hardly ever even use Tactical Strike anymore.

I really could not give less of a kitten about other players perceptions of thief.
A) Why would I?
B) According to forum fighters, thief is broken in every single aspect. They deal too much damage, stealth too much, dodge too much, steal boons too much, are too hard to kill, get away too much, and so on and so on and so on. If you want to base your build on other idiots perceptions, by all means, be my guest and have fun standing around and getting 3 shot (because that’s what they want). I’ll continue to enjoy my class.

BTW, what kind of metric is “Hardly even useTactical strike Anymore?” There’s absolutely no qualification to that statement. Will using Tactical Strike at random times score me some hipster cred? 6 Init to do kitten damage for a lousy 1.5s daze is pointless, unless your breaking a Res/Stomp, interrupting a long cast time skill, or were luckily already in stealth when someone went to heal – you know, using it tactically. Since most S/D players aren’t running points in SA, why in gods name would they pepper in Tactical Strike randomly?

Jumper.9482:

Stof.9584:

Jumper.9482:

A 10% dps nerf would be enough for me to shelf S/D, pick up D/P again, and never look back.
I wouldn’t mind it though, because D/P is actually a complete kit and more fun to play.

How do you feel S/D could be balanced purely as a set?

I am asking since a lot of top players felt it is too powerful and it was mainly your build that made the set spread in popularity immediately after Sword #3 was patched.

An aftercast buff on CnD, enabling TS to be used as a viable interrupt (at the same time buffing D/D). And/or revert the nerf to CnD and buff Tactical Strike damage.
And giving Dancing Dagger something extra. Torment (to help p/d condi as well) or a mini stun on the first hit when landed from behind the target.
This would go, in hand, with nerfing FS/LS dps by about 5-15%

I like poison (only on first target hit) more than Torment, as it helps all Dagger OH specs, rather than just P/D

evilapprentice.6379:

Jumper.9482:

Stof.9584:

Jumper.9482:

A 10% dps nerf would be enough for me to shelf S/D, pick up D/P again, and never look back.
I wouldn’t mind it though, because D/P is actually a complete kit and more fun to play.

How do you feel S/D could be balanced purely as a set?

I am asking since a lot of top players felt it is too powerful and it was mainly your build that made the set spread in popularity immediately after Sword #3 was patched.

An aftercast buff on CnD, enabling TS to be used as a viable interrupt (at the same time buffing D/D). And/or revert the nerf to CnD and buff Tactical Strike damage.
And giving Dancing Dagger something extra. Torment (to help p/d condi as well) or a mini stun on the first hit when landed from behind the target.
This would go, in hand, with nerfing FS/LS dps by about 5-15%

I like poison (only on first target hit) more than Torment, as it helps all Dagger OH specs, rather than just P/D

I wouldn’t want it to be redundant, design-wise, since poison is applicable through DD’ing through a poison field. Plus, torment or mini-stun meshes with the concept of DD being a movement impair. Plus, poison would probably make S/D far too strong.

The dual skills shouldn’t be the end all skill to use for everything.

It should have 2 of 3 things, atleast for Larcenous.

1. Damage
2. Utility
3. Defense

It can lose number 1 and still be very good, free dodge and boon steal which is huge and a little bit of dmg, then if you want to do dmg, sit there and use auto’s that’s what they’re there for.

Either that or it loses one of the other things.

Jumper.9482:

An aftercast buff on CnD, enabling TS to be used as a viable interrupt (at the same time buffing D/D). And/or revert the nerf to CnD and buff Tactical Strike damage.
And giving Dancing Dagger something extra. Torment (to help p/d condi as well) or a mini stun on the first hit when landed from behind the target.
This would go, in hand, with nerfing FS/LS dps by about 5-15%.

Solid idea to balance all thief weaponsets! I like the mini-stun related to positioning idea. Patch, please.

What about the auto-attacks, though? And the evades (one evade) people complain about paired with numerous dodges?

Really don’t think S/D is OP, but that may just be me running 30/30/5/50 and not running energy sigil or 2 S/D sets.

So if we start with the idea that single S/D is balanced, like where is the problem? Is it energy sigil? Is it running 2 sets of the same weapons? Or is it quick recovery?

Is it a spam issue?

Mace/Shield + GS healing signet warrior is a lot more OP anyways.

Excalibur.9748:

Really don’t think S/D is OP, but that may just be me running 30/30/5/50 and not running energy sigil or 2 S/D sets.

So if we start with the idea that single S/D is balanced, like where is the problem? Is it energy sigil? Is it running 2 sets of the same weapons? Or is it quick recovery?

Is it a spam issue?

Mace/Shield + GS healing signet warrior is a lot more OP anyways.

Someone might say it’s not op, it’s just that the game is playing itself. Both with S/D and GS

Dual.8953:

Well I’m going with what I’ve been hearing going around with this rant being the icing on the cake: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Helseths-Rant-of-the-Week-THIS-META/first#content

I can see how the presents of an S/D thief in a game can block boon heavy classes from playing, and I want LS to still be a counter to boon users but not completely shut them down by it’s mere presence.
S/D used to be considered a respectable thief set. Now it’s joined the ranks of the “mindless spammers” in people’s minds. I get the inkling that most Spvp S/D users hardly ever even use Tactical Strike anymore.
I realize there’s a lot more problems with other classes in SPvP but I don’t have experience with them, I have been with S/D from the start, which is why I speak about it and not them.

Let me tell you something about Helseth.

I went to his stream this morning to discuss S/D thieves.

He basically responded to every thing I said by telling me that I was stupid, that I was what was wrong with GW2. I mentioned tons of little details about cast times and general counters to the build, and the only- only- thing that Helseth responded with that I was a complete idiot and that everything I said was just automatically wrong.

Seriously? I agree with some of the guy’s ideas, but that he feels that he has to insult people who provide factual counters to his ideas is just absurd. I can hardly take him seriously any more after his rage episode this morning on the GW2pvptv.

On a separate note, IMO S/D is in a perfectly fine place right now. I’ve already written a ton about its counters though, so unless somebody asks me something specific about S/D counters, I don’t want to write anything more about how to counter the build. -_-

EDIT: also, those of you that think that FS does “a ton of damage” or whatever should go check out the actual damage stats. It does less than any of the attacks in the auto chain.

Arganthium.5638:

Dual.8953:

Well I’m going with what I’ve been hearing going around with this rant being the icing on the cake: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Helseths-Rant-of-the-Week-THIS-META/first#content

I can see how the presents of an S/D thief in a game can block boon heavy classes from playing, and I want LS to still be a counter to boon users but not completely shut them down by it’s mere presence.
S/D used to be considered a respectable thief set. Now it’s joined the ranks of the “mindless spammers” in people’s minds. I get the inkling that most Spvp S/D users hardly ever even use Tactical Strike anymore.
I realize there’s a lot more problems with other classes in SPvP but I don’t have experience with them, I have been with S/D from the start, which is why I speak about it and not them.

Let me tell you something about Helseth.

I went to his stream this morning to discuss S/D thieves.

He basically responded to every thing I said by telling me that I was stupid, that I was what was wrong with GW2. I mentioned tons of little details about cast times and general counters to the build, and the only- only- thing that Helseth responded with that I was a complete idiot and that everything I said was just automatically wrong.

Seriously? I agree with some of the guy’s ideas, but that he feels that he has to insult people who provide factual counters to his ideas is just absurd. I can hardly take him seriously any more after his rage episode this morning on the GW2pvptv.

On a separate note, IMO S/D is in a perfectly fine place right now. I’ve already written a ton about its counters though, so unless somebody asks me something specific about S/D counters, I don’t want to write anything more about how to counter the build. -_-

EDIT: also, those of you that think that FS does “a ton of damage” or whatever should go check out the actual damage stats. It does less than any of the attacks in the auto chain.

Well, I don’t think he was talking about pure balance. Thieves are balanced in the meta, like other builds (some of them cheesy) are. The problem is about the meta.

redslion.9675:

Well, I don’t think he was talking about pure balance. Thieves are balanced in the meta, like other builds (some of them cheesy) are. The problem is about the meta.

He was certainly talking about balance; it just so happens that metagame is a subset of balance.

Arganthium.5638:

redslion.9675:

Well, I don’t think he was talking about pure balance. Thieves are balanced in the meta, like other builds (some of them cheesy) are. The problem is about the meta.

He was certainly talking about balance; it just so happens that metagame is a subset of balance.

Yes, but he said it’s more or less as OP as some warrior builds, as some ranger ones, as some necro ones and so on…

I don’t say i agree with him (It’s one month I’m not playing, so I don’t know how things are now) but I guess he wanted to say the problem is not whether those builds are beatable, but how they change the meta into spamming.

redslion.9675:

Arganthium.5638:

redslion.9675:

Well, I don’t think he was talking about pure balance. Thieves are balanced in the meta, like other builds (some of them cheesy) are. The problem is about the meta.

He was certainly talking about balance; it just so happens that metagame is a subset of balance.

Yes, but he said it’s more or less as OP as some warrior builds, as some ranger ones, as some necro ones and so on…

I don’t say i agree with him (It’s one month I’m not playing, so I don’t know how things are now) but I guess he wanted to say the problem is not whether those builds are beatable, but how they change the meta into spamming.

I once made a topic in these forums

It was titled

“Why good S/D is not 3 spam”. And what the title says is true.

I actually run 10/30/0/0/30 offensive s/d, so if u make a research on the minor traits of this build u’ll notice that if you burn your ini, your damage also gets lower. Taking in mind that fs+ls costs 5 ini , just 3 “combos” will destroy u.

Jumper.9482:

A 10% dps nerf would be enough for me to shelf S/D, pick up D/P again, and never look back.
I wouldn’t mind it though, because D/P is actually a complete kit and more fun to play.

what do you think about flanking strike only flipping for larcenous strike if fs hits?

ahuba.6430:

Jumper.9482:

A 10% dps nerf would be enough for me to shelf S/D, pick up D/P again, and never look back.
I wouldn’t mind it though, because D/P is actually a complete kit and more fun to play.

what do you think about flanking strike only flipping for larcenous strike if fs hits?

Evade will be even worse than people say it is right now.

Arganthium.5638:

redslion.9675:

Arganthium.5638:

redslion.9675:

Well, I don’t think he was talking about pure balance. Thieves are balanced in the meta, like other builds (some of them cheesy) are. The problem is about the meta.

He was certainly talking about balance; it just so happens that metagame is a subset of balance.

Yes, but he said it’s more or less as OP as some warrior builds, as some ranger ones, as some necro ones and so on…

I don’t say i agree with him (It’s one month I’m not playing, so I don’t know how things are now) but I guess he wanted to say the problem is not whether those builds are beatable, but how they change the meta into spamming.

I once made a topic in these forums

It was titled

“Why good S/D is not 3 spam”. And what the title says is true.

I could make the joke

“because you also press 2 once in a while”, but yeah, sorry, spammy is not the right word. And it isn’t necessarily thieves’ fault.

It’s more about the fact that reading your opponent becomes so hard is somewhat useless.

From day one, they should have just added a larcenist strike (in mechanic) to every thief weapon abilities.
Of course they would be different attacks, and be more situational and whatnot… but anyways…. the primary abilities cost little to no initiative, and the second abilities cost 3->5. Then after screwing up the ini regen traits so you have to majorly invest in them to actually be able to shoot off skill after skill.. vuala, a very deep and strategic class in a game (conquest) that desperately needs that.

It’d create a ‘sort of CD’ setup where you use a primary skill, a secondary comes up for 7->15s and if you want to use it, you can pay the ini and open up the primary one again.
Spam, but with consequence, or play well, deal with the ‘sort of CDs’ and not have to spec so heavily into initiative.

But no.
Anet has no kittening idea how to make a game.
The kittening made spam fest initiative.
It’s just luck, and luck alone that made GW1 into something worth playing.

The issue regarding S/D thieves is not FS -> LS chain, neither is the evade.

The reason why S/D is so strong is because it’s able to snowball low HP classes thanks to Inf strike mobility, without even giving them time to reposition.

Not that it matters, since Inf strike will just get the thief back to you in no time.

Add this to the natural strong 1vs1 capability of the build and you know how it will ends.

Most thieves won’t talk about it because they KNOW the issue is Inf strike, not the evade, neither the damage ( in fact a common EU S/D build CAN be defeated 1vs1 by multiple classes, as long as they have decent ranged options or good CCs, or good AoE control/damage), and all thieves know that a nerf to Inf strike would not only break the set, but the whole Sword MH.

Nerfing damage ( unless they totally kitten it ridicolously, stuff like -33% damage like they did with C&D or dancing dagger) won’t change anything, because the issue is Inf strike coupled with the good sustain S/D offers.

Also: note that S/P is not used simply because pistol whip deals mediocre damage and ROOTS YOU IN PLACE: if we could use pistol whip on the move and dealt a little bit more of damge, NOBODY would run S/D.

LITERALLY

NOBODY.

Mrbig.8019:

The issue regarding S/D thieves is not FS -> LS chain, neither is the evade.

The reason why S/D is so strong is because it’s able to snowball low HP classes thanks to Inf strike mobility, without even giving them time to reposition.

Not that it matters, since Inf strike will just get the thief back to you in no time.

Add this to the natural strong 1vs1 capability of the build and you know how it will ends.

Most thieves won’t talk about it because they KNOW the issue is Inf strike, not the evade, neither the damage ( in fact a common EU S/D build CAN be defeated 1vs1 by multiple classes, as long as they have decent ranged options or good CCs, or good AoE control/damage), and all thieves know that a nerf to Inf strike would not only break the set, but the whole Sword MH.

Nerfing damage ( unless they totally kitten it ridicolously, stuff like -33% damage like they did with C&D or dancing dagger) won’t change anything, because the issue is Inf strike coupled with the good sustain S/D offers.

Also: note that S/P is not used simply because pistol whip deals mediocre damage and ROOTS YOU IN PLACE: if we could use pistol whip on the move and dealt a little bit more of damge, NOBODY would run S/D.

LITERALLY

NOBODY.

I disagree, evade is the issue. It gives S/D the ability to evade tank. Mitigating damage should be a sacrifice of a damage dealing stat. Or if mitigation is done via skill it should have a long cooldown.

If you noticed for block there are unblockable skills, for dodge there is weakness (even though I feel it doesn’t do a good job as a counter) and for evade there is absolutely nothing.

So what does this mean? It can be used without fear of someone punishing you for spamming it. If there were skills that were can’t be evaded then S/D would be less of a issue.

Evade should use a portion of your endurance meter like dodge. When you run out of endurance you can still use the skill but you can no longer evade.

This would stop the spamming since it will be controlled and there would be a distinct difference between dodge and evade. Dodge would be just the double tap skill. Evade would be like dodge except it combines the effect of dodge with a skill. So it has a advantage over it.

Mrbig.8019:

The issue regarding S/D thieves is not FS -> LS chain, neither is the evade.

The reason why S/D is so strong is because it’s able to snowball low HP classes thanks to Inf strike mobility, without even giving them time to reposition.

Not that it matters, since Inf strike will just get the thief back to you in no time.

Add this to the natural strong 1vs1 capability of the build and you know how it will ends.

Most thieves won’t talk about it because they KNOW the issue is Inf strike, not the evade, neither the damage ( in fact a common EU S/D build CAN be defeated 1vs1 by multiple classes, as long as they have decent ranged options or good CCs, or good AoE control/damage), and all thieves know that a nerf to Inf strike would not only break the set, but the whole Sword MH.

Nerfing damage ( unless they totally kitten it ridicolously, stuff like -33% damage like they did with C&D or dancing dagger) won’t change anything, because the issue is Inf strike coupled with the good sustain S/D offers.

Also: note that S/P is not used simply because pistol whip deals mediocre damage and ROOTS YOU IN PLACE: if we could use pistol whip on the move and dealt a little bit more of damge, NOBODY would run S/D.

LITERALLY

NOBODY.

You haven’t played S/D before, have you?

Also, the small mention of the weaponset didn’t explain why S/P isn’t used just as much as S/D is, because of Infi Strike which is apparently OP (not really). There are tons of great things about S/P, specifically, interrupts, burst, and blind field.

redslion.9675:

Arganthium.5638:

redslion.9675:

Well, I don’t think he was talking about pure balance. Thieves are balanced in the meta, like other builds (some of them cheesy) are. The problem is about the meta.

He was certainly talking about balance; it just so happens that metagame is a subset of balance.

Yes, but he said it’s more or less as OP as some warrior builds, as some ranger ones, as some necro ones and so on…

I don’t say i agree with him (It’s one month I’m not playing, so I don’t know how things are now) but I guess he wanted to say the problem is not whether those builds are beatable, but how they change the meta into spamming.

I would understand that, but the problem is that good S/D thieves shouldn’t spam; positioning and timing are extremely important to the spec. That’s coming from somebody who’s been playing the spec for almost 4 months now, and who’s theorycrafted a ton on the spec.

Aza.2105:

Mrbig.8019:

The issue regarding S/D thieves is not FS -> LS chain, neither is the evade.

The reason why S/D is so strong is because it’s able to snowball low HP classes thanks to Inf strike mobility, without even giving them time to reposition.

Not that it matters, since Inf strike will just get the thief back to you in no time.

Add this to the natural strong 1vs1 capability of the build and you know how it will ends.

Most thieves won’t talk about it because they KNOW the issue is Inf strike, not the evade, neither the damage ( in fact a common EU S/D build CAN be defeated 1vs1 by multiple classes, as long as they have decent ranged options or good CCs, or good AoE control/damage), and all thieves know that a nerf to Inf strike would not only break the set, but the whole Sword MH.

Nerfing damage ( unless they totally kitten it ridicolously, stuff like -33% damage like they did with C&D or dancing dagger) won’t change anything, because the issue is Inf strike coupled with the good sustain S/D offers.

Also: note that S/P is not used simply because pistol whip deals mediocre damage and ROOTS YOU IN PLACE: if we could use pistol whip on the move and dealt a little bit more of damge, NOBODY would run S/D.

LITERALLY

NOBODY.

I disagree, evade is the issue. It gives S/D the ability to evade tank. Mitigating damage should be a sacrifice of a damage dealing stat. Or if mitigation is done via skill it should have a long cooldown.

If you noticed for block there are unblockable skills, for dodge there is weakness (even though I feel it doesn’t do a good job as a counter) and for evade there is absolutely nothing.

So what does this mean? It can be used without fear of someone punishing you for spamming it. If there were skills that were can’t be evaded then S/D would be less of a issue.

Evade should use a portion of your endurance meter like dodge. When you run out of endurance you can still use the skill but you can no longer evade.

This would stop the spamming since it will be controlled and there would be a distinct difference between dodge and evade. Dodge would be just the double tap skill. Evade would be like dodge except it combines the effect of dodge with a skill. So it has a advantage over it.

I hate to say it , but you need to L2P, and i don’t want to sound elitist, but it’s just a matter of fact.

Larcenous strike ( big damage) requires 1/2 secs to connect: plenty of time to react and use your damage-CC.

Why, as arganthium said, is there a difference between a good thief and an idiot spamming 3 ?

because the good thief will fake the move, knowing that a good opponent IS ABLE to spot Larcenous Strike animation and HIT meanwhile.

Persistant AoEs are also S/D weak spot.

Evade is not a problem: it may be frustrating to play against, but it’s not the problem, neither the reason why S/D thief is strong.

I agree S/D thief is a bit over the top ( absolutely not as OP as most people claim), but i cannot take people seriously as long as they literally have NO IDEA why S/D thieves are strong in current meta ( and still will be, altough less strong, even if the meta shifts).

Mrbig.8019:

Aza.2105:

Mrbig.8019:

The issue regarding S/D thieves is not FS -> LS chain, neither is the evade.

The reason why S/D is so strong is because it’s able to snowball low HP classes thanks to Inf strike mobility, without even giving them time to reposition.

Not that it matters, since Inf strike will just get the thief back to you in no time.

Add this to the natural strong 1vs1 capability of the build and you know how it will ends.

Most thieves won’t talk about it because they KNOW the issue is Inf strike, not the evade, neither the damage ( in fact a common EU S/D build CAN be defeated 1vs1 by multiple classes, as long as they have decent ranged options or good CCs, or good AoE control/damage), and all thieves know that a nerf to Inf strike would not only break the set, but the whole Sword MH.

Nerfing damage ( unless they totally kitten it ridicolously, stuff like -33% damage like they did with C&D or dancing dagger) won’t change anything, because the issue is Inf strike coupled with the good sustain S/D offers.

Also: note that S/P is not used simply because pistol whip deals mediocre damage and ROOTS YOU IN PLACE: if we could use pistol whip on the move and dealt a little bit more of damge, NOBODY would run S/D.

LITERALLY

NOBODY.

I disagree, evade is the issue. It gives S/D the ability to evade tank. Mitigating damage should be a sacrifice of a damage dealing stat. Or if mitigation is done via skill it should have a long cooldown.

If you noticed for block there are unblockable skills, for dodge there is weakness (even though I feel it doesn’t do a good job as a counter) and for evade there is absolutely nothing.

So what does this mean? It can be used without fear of someone punishing you for spamming it. If there were skills that were can’t be evaded then S/D would be less of a issue.

Evade should use a portion of your endurance meter like dodge. When you run out of endurance you can still use the skill but you can no longer evade.

This would stop the spamming since it will be controlled and there would be a distinct difference between dodge and evade. Dodge would be just the double tap skill. Evade would be like dodge except it combines the effect of dodge with a skill. So it has a advantage over it.

I hate to say it , but you need to L2P, and i don’t want to sound elitist, but it’s just a matter of fact.

Larcenous strike ( big damage) requires 1/2 secs to connect: plenty of time to react and use your damage-CC.

Why, as arganthium said, is there a difference between a good thief and an idiot spamming 3 ?

because the good thief will fake the move, knowing that a good opponent IS ABLE to spot Larcenous Strike animation and HIT meanwhile.

Persistant AoEs are also S/D weak spot.

Evade is not a problem: it may be frustrating to play against, but it’s not the problem, neither the reason why S/D thief is strong.

I agree S/D thief is a bit over the top ( absolutely not as OP as most people claim), but i cannot take people seriously as long as they literally have NO IDEA why S/D thieves are strong in current meta ( and still will be, altough less strong, even if the meta shifts).

Funny guy.

Show me how its a l2p issue. Youtube is available why don’t you make videos putting into application what you are telling me here. Then we can engage in conversation.

Dual.8953:

My idea is to destroy that kind of play and bring it back to the S/D users making full use of their.

you mean 4s daze hiltbash ?

Aza.2105:

Mrbig.8019:

Aza.2105:

Mrbig.8019:

The issue regarding S/D thieves is not FS -> LS chain, neither is the evade.

The reason why S/D is so strong is because it’s able to snowball low HP classes thanks to Inf strike mobility, without even giving them time to reposition.

Not that it matters, since Inf strike will just get the thief back to you in no time.

Add this to the natural strong 1vs1 capability of the build and you know how it will ends.

Most thieves won’t talk about it because they KNOW the issue is Inf strike, not the evade, neither the damage ( in fact a common EU S/D build CAN be defeated 1vs1 by multiple classes, as long as they have decent ranged options or good CCs, or good AoE control/damage), and all thieves know that a nerf to Inf strike would not only break the set, but the whole Sword MH.

Nerfing damage ( unless they totally kitten it ridicolously, stuff like -33% damage like they did with C&D or dancing dagger) won’t change anything, because the issue is Inf strike coupled with the good sustain S/D offers.

Also: note that S/P is not used simply because pistol whip deals mediocre damage and ROOTS YOU IN PLACE: if we could use pistol whip on the move and dealt a little bit more of damge, NOBODY would run S/D.

LITERALLY

NOBODY.

I disagree, evade is the issue. It gives S/D the ability to evade tank. Mitigating damage should be a sacrifice of a damage dealing stat. Or if mitigation is done via skill it should have a long cooldown.

If you noticed for block there are unblockable skills, for dodge there is weakness (even though I feel it doesn’t do a good job as a counter) and for evade there is absolutely nothing.

So what does this mean? It can be used without fear of someone punishing you for spamming it. If there were skills that were can’t be evaded then S/D would be less of a issue.

Evade should use a portion of your endurance meter like dodge. When you run out of endurance you can still use the skill but you can no longer evade.

This would stop the spamming since it will be controlled and there would be a distinct difference between dodge and evade. Dodge would be just the double tap skill. Evade would be like dodge except it combines the effect of dodge with a skill. So it has a advantage over it.

I hate to say it , but you need to L2P, and i don’t want to sound elitist, but it’s just a matter of fact.

Larcenous strike ( big damage) requires 1/2 secs to connect: plenty of time to react and use your damage-CC.

Why, as arganthium said, is there a difference between a good thief and an idiot spamming 3 ?

because the good thief will fake the move, knowing that a good opponent IS ABLE to spot Larcenous Strike animation and HIT meanwhile.

Persistant AoEs are also S/D weak spot.

Evade is not a problem: it may be frustrating to play against, but it’s not the problem, neither the reason why S/D thief is strong.

I agree S/D thief is a bit over the top ( absolutely not as OP as most people claim), but i cannot take people seriously as long as they literally have NO IDEA why S/D thieves are strong in current meta ( and still will be, altough less strong, even if the meta shifts).

Funny guy.

Show me how its a l2p issue. Youtube is available why don’t you make videos putting into application what you are telling me here. Then we can engage in conversation.

Dude just go to Jumper twitch channel, or even youtube, and listen to him while he explains what a good S/D thief should do ( there’s a video-guide, and even a guide at mistpedia.com).

Or go to guildwars2.pvptv and ask to helseth WHY he thinks S/D is OP/bad for the meta.

He won’t say " DEEEEEERP TOO MANY DODGES" but will say " kitten thief follows me everywhere !!!".

If you’re worried about dodges, it’s simply a low-skill level issue that most good ( not even top) players can overcome.

Again, i may agree dodges are frustrating to play against, but they’re not the reason why Helseth ( and many others) are right hating S/D thieves.

oh shut up guys, this game is fine.