Guild Wars 2

BlackBeard.2873:

Poelala.2830:

S/F ele can beat a war when in an open field and there is plenty of terrain for us to kite onto. Although in a 1v1 on a node, war wins. War wins easily. And the S/F only kills a war when the war overextends.

Yea, I think this is what people are trying to get at when they say “fight on a point.” In the context of pvp, if you want to 1v1, a warrior always gets an easy decap and quick cap as you can’t contest or kill in any timeframe that makes it a net positive to even stay and 1v1. The amount of pressure and ability to completely ignore anything you do (invulns, pulsing stab to ignore hard cc, cleanse of soft cc, resistance to ignore blinds) just require ceding the point.

As an s/f ele, you really shouldn’t be 1v1 just about anyone (except other squishies that are based on projectiles, like power ranger, rifle engie, and maybe DH if they aren’t good or are low on CD’s). Those matchups you CAN get a kill outside of this require giving up a cap for so long that its a loss in pvp context, besides the point that a thief will just come +1 you and instagib you while low on CD’s for taking so long to “win” the 1v1 and kill anyway.

That said, 1v1ing isn’t even the role that a roaming dps fulfills. I am not even sure what possible niche burst ele could be given that would make it a viable pick for teams.
- Rev has a spot when played well due to high mobility and still good burst to take out targets in teamfights and +1’s. This is the roaming dps that teamfights and stalls some 1v1s well.
- Thieves obviously own +1’s with their INSANE mobility. This is the standard for all roaming dps.
- Mesmers (even condi) still have portal, good sustain to act like a bruiser, and a huge condi burst/moa to be excellent in +1’s.

S/F ele doesn’t have a viable niche to even compete against what these alternatives can offer. A burst build that can give some heals makes no sense, and giving boons is already done better by rev (which isn’t even OP atm). Maybe s/f needs to be catered toward a bruiser build, but that role is already so bloated with engies, druids, warriors, and DH’s. Perhaps if you give s/f enough mobility and damage, it can be a middle-ground between revs and thieves, with higher mobility than rev, but lower than thief. Better single-target damage and decent burst compared to rev, and better survivability (thanks to range) in teamfights than thief (but still lower mobility).

False. A S/F’s role is to primarily take 1v1s. It sucks at 1v1s because it’s so weak, and that doesn’t make it a +1 build.

I would say in team fights its a bit safer to play than a thief simply because of the range. But yeah this type of build should be for roaming and 1v1

As bad as it sounds, I would be ok with ele bring the only class with access to celestial stats. If the metas have proven anything, it’s that ele only functions efficiently as a jack of all trades or a strict healer/support.

I know D/D ele was OP at one point, but there were plenty of times D/D was fine, it was strong but not impossible. The class is very one dimensional.

Poelala.2830:

False. A S/F’s role is to primarily take 1v1s. It sucks at 1v1s because it’s so weak, and that doesn’t make it a +1 build.

The role of a dps build is to +1 and create winning fights. S/F ele still has bad sustained damage, and only burst, and its burst isn’t enough alone to kill anyone in any reasonable time without help. However, s/f does have enough burst to end fights by killing targets low on CD’s or unprepared for a huge damage drop. If s/f ele is supposed to 1v1, it needs more consistent damage, less burst (shave phoenix to only hit once or something, but lower CD), and way more sustain.

Even if a thief could win 1v1’s against most classes, its job is still to roam and end fights quickly. It just takes way too long to win any 1v1’s (as both classes) and you have to give up the decap and even full-cap against almost anything before anything dies. Only against heavily ranged classes can you really hold the point effectively. You rely on positioning, kiting, and very select usage of your long CD’s to stay alive, and you just can’t do that fighting over a point.

DrDivine.5378:

As bad as it sounds, I would be ok with ele bring the only class with access to celestial stats. If the metas have proven anything, it’s that ele only functions efficiently as a jack of all trades or a strict healer/support.

I know D/D ele was OP at one point, but there were plenty of times D/D was fine, it was strong but not impossible. The class is very one dimensional.

In fact, right after the release of HoT, cele ele couldn’t even keep up with new, shiny, HoT bruisers like marauder or soldier engie (before they removed it and instead gave paladin amulet), who have more damage AND sustain. Other bruisers like modern warrior would laugh out loud at cele ele, who couldn’t even out-damage their passive sustain and would die in 2-3 hits of a GS.

Poelala.2830:

Cynz.9437:

Poelala.2830:

Thief, on the other hand, has no classes that counter it in the sense that it can kill a thief consistently and in a reasonable time (like Druid countering DH, or DH countering Mesmer)….

You lost me there.

Why are you spreading misinformation?

DH can basically one shot thief, scrapper can kill thief while being semi-afk, war can kill thief with 1 timed stun.

I can tell you why ele dps will never see love: it is support class. Period. You know what happens when you buff dps side of support class? Look at bandwagon of DHs atm or celestial eles from before HoT. It is imbalanced and just broken.

Thief only dies to scrapper or DH because he lets himself die. If you are +1ing a scrapper, run away. If a DH has locked onto you, dodge. Now this is what a true counter is. If you, as a necro, see a ranger, you can’t run. Accept your death. If you as a DH see a ranger, same thing. If you as a Revenant see a mesmer, it’s gg. Thief is the most mobile class in the game, the only time a thief dies is at the fault of himself.

Running away isn’t the same as winning, especially in a conquest game. If the thief has to stay and fight to keep the node, odds are a warrior, engi or DH will decap and force that thief off node, if not kill it outright. Sure, they can’t catch a thief if they decide to run, but it would be stupidly op if any of those classes could outrun a thief. Do you really want a bunker with Thief mobility?

More on topic though, I have no issue with currently non meta builds becoming thief hunters (although I’d argue we have enough already), provided it’s not a meta build that gets this buff and that this new build is still weak against at least one meta build currently in play. Balance, not dominance.

BlackBeard.2873:

Poelala.2830:

False. A S/F’s role is to primarily take 1v1s. It sucks at 1v1s because it’s so weak, and that doesn’t make it a +1 build.

The role of a dps build is to +1 and create winning fights. S/F ele still has bad sustained damage, and only burst, and its burst isn’t enough alone to kill anyone in any reasonable time without help. However, s/f does have enough burst to end fights by killing targets low on CD’s or unprepared for a huge damage drop. If s/f ele is supposed to 1v1, it needs more consistent damage, less burst (shave phoenix to only hit once or something, but lower CD), and way more sustain.

Even if a thief could win 1v1’s against most classes, its job is still to roam and end fights quickly. It just takes way too long to win any 1v1’s (as both classes) and you have to give up the decap and even full-cap against almost anything before anything dies. Only against heavily ranged classes can you really hold the point effectively. You rely on positioning, kiting, and very select usage of your long CD’s to stay alive, and you just can’t do that fighting over a point.

DrDivine.5378:

As bad as it sounds, I would be ok with ele bring the only class with access to celestial stats. If the metas have proven anything, it’s that ele only functions efficiently as a jack of all trades or a strict healer/support.

I know D/D ele was OP at one point, but there were plenty of times D/D was fine, it was strong but not impossible. The class is very one dimensional.

In fact, right after the release of HoT, cele ele couldn’t even keep up with new, shiny, HoT bruisers like marauder or soldier engie (before they removed it and instead gave paladin amulet), who have more damage AND sustain. Other bruisers like modern warrior would laugh out loud at cele ele, who couldn’t even out-damage their passive sustain and would die in 2-3 hits of a GS.

You would really think something would’ve surfaced at this point, but it’s only proven that ele is so closely locked to vitality and healing power it needs those to even be usable.

I’m no balance expert, this game has been out for what, 4 and a half years? We’ve only seen two, TWO meta builds for ele, cele (again, healing power, vitality and toughness are the major keys there) and tempest, which is the same thing minus the damage.

fresh air is a gimmick, we had that weird auto attack stay on earth attunement condi build for awhile before that got nerfed, but those were not very viable.

DrDivine.5378:

You would really think something would’ve surfaced at this point, but it’s only proven that ele is so closely locked to vitality and healing power it needs those to even be usable.

I’m no balance expert, this game has been out for what, 4 and a half years? We’ve only seen two, TWO meta builds for ele, cele (again, healing power, vitality and toughness are the major keys there) and tempest, which is the same thing minus the damage.

fresh air is a gimmick, we had that weird auto attack stay on earth attunement condi build for awhile before that got nerfed, but those were not very viable.

Actually, ele has more been locked to healing power and toughness, with menders only working b/c they jacked the strength of heals up so high and there aren’t any better options. Even that, with mender’s ele is forced to position extremely defensive and its role is no longer to bang bodies on point, but support those who are. You can 1v1 most builds if forced to, but in teamfights you have to skirt the main “fray” a bit so you don’t get bursted down.

Back near the start of the game (pre-cele days), ele played valkyries (which was power, toughness, healing power, and ferocity) and did quite well. Cele worked b/c it had enough toughness and healing power. Cleric was the next pick, b/c it had toughness and healing power. Menders is the last option ele was forced to b/c they removed all the toughness/healing power options.

Ele can handle low vitality better than low toughness, as there is an abundance of cleanses that can be specced. Also, healing power scales VERY well with toughness vs. power damage, while vitality actually decreases the percentage that healing power heals you. You really only need ENOUGH vitality that you have time to react and heal back up.